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View Full Version : Getting caught with a 20 round mag + in CA??


Fobanginvtek
01-09-2010, 2:05 AM
Does anyone happen to know the consequences for getting caught with a 20+ round magazine in CA? This would be for a first offense. Just curious.

bballwizard05
01-09-2010, 2:06 AM
Owning a high cap mag is not illegal. Importing one is illegal. If you owned it before the year 2000 in California then you are good.

johnthomas
01-09-2010, 2:09 AM
Did this happen to you?

JDay
01-09-2010, 2:12 AM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#5

If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?
No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.

(PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29))

Amazing what Google can find you.

JDay
01-09-2010, 2:13 AM
Did this happen to you?

If this did happen do not answer this.

bballwizard05
01-09-2010, 2:13 AM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#5



Amazing what Google can find you.



^ ^^ word.

crud
01-09-2010, 5:42 AM
...

VegasND
01-09-2010, 6:06 AM
It's a good question. I didn't ask it, but I'd like to see the answer as I'm not sure if this would be treated as a misdemeanor or a felony.

I'll provide a hypothetical:
A person, like myself, tries to 'sanitize' his possessions and vehicle before travel to CA but misses a standard capacity magazine (place it where you'd like for argument; in the trunk, under the seat, etc)

For some reason, a CA LEO finds it. How will it be prosecuted? How will the circumstances of its discovery affect prosecution?

Roadrunner
01-09-2010, 7:10 AM
So, possessing a magazine that accepts more than 10 rounds and was made prior to Jan 1, 2000 is not illegal. That means that if you have any firearm made before 2000, your good. That also means that if you should acquire a magazine that accepts more than 10 rounds and it was made prior to 2000, the police have to prove you acquired it after 2000. If that's the case, then crime had better be so low in their jurisdiction that LCP's are the biggest crime they have.

otteray
01-09-2010, 7:11 AM
There were about 45,700 Google results for the phrase "google it" on the calguns google search:ack2:

California Penal Code Section 12020
(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
...

(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

GrizzlyGuy
01-09-2010, 7:20 AM
Doesn't say anything here about consequences, which is what the OP asked.

There are no consequences since there is no crime: possession of a large-capacity magazine is legal. Here is the Calguns wiki page (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Large-capacity_magazine_restrictions) on the topic:

Simple possession of a large-capacity magazine is not prohibited.

GaffSD
01-09-2010, 7:52 AM
Of course, being a free country, you are free to talk your way in to jail. It's not hard.

When a Law Enforcement Officer (whom I understand and respect) sees it (the magazine) and questions you about it, you should answer something like this:

"I respect your job and appreciate your situation. I hope you understand my position, and that I will not answer any further questions without my lawyer present."

And then you obey their commands (such as "watch your head") and shut the hell up untill you have council. Period. End of story. No words. Ever.

Don't talk.

No sounds, short of farts and: "I really have to pee", but I'd really run that by your lawyer. The seats are hard plastic.

I really do respect the job that law enforcement does. I want them to investigate robbers, child molesters and drug dealers.

It's just important to differentiate ourselves from bad guys by CALLING A LAWYER!!!!!

GaffSD
01-09-2010, 7:54 AM
And, no, I'm not a lawyer.

It's just that every lawyer I've ever hired:

1- was worth the $200+ per hour I paid them, and:

2- should have been called sooner, thus saving me A LOT of lawyer fees!

Maestro Pistolero
01-09-2010, 8:26 AM
I had a Colt Sporter in the late nineties when I lived in CA, I'm pretty sure that's on record somewhere. I sold the gun a long time ago, but I kept the magazines.

5150Marcelo
01-09-2010, 8:29 AM
If you get caught, youll get a BIG spanking!!!

SJgunguy24
01-09-2010, 9:51 AM
I had a LEO tell me I needed to carry a receipt for my mags. I asked him if he carried receipts for something he bought 15 years ago with cash.
That pretty much ended it right there.

lorax3
01-09-2010, 10:59 AM
I had a LEO tell me I needed to carry a receipt for my mags. I asked him if he carried receipts for something he bought 15 years ago with cash.
That pretty much ended it right there.

Haha. That's awesome.

cj cake
01-09-2010, 11:07 AM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#5



Amazing what Google can find you.

If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?
No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.

(PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29))

That's FUD! It's illegal to keep for sale, not buy.

Trendkill
01-09-2010, 11:09 AM
I had a LEO tell me I needed to carry a receipt for my mags. I asked him if he carried receipts for something he bought 15 years ago with cash.
That pretty much ended it right there.


You shoulda said..."Would you like a reciept for your warm glass of shut the hell up..? "

paintballergb
01-09-2010, 11:16 AM
If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?
No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.

(PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29)

I am just throwing this out there to see if it holds any water. In this section it says it's "illegal to give" but later states except by "California peace officers". This leads to me to wonder can a peace officer GIVE me high cap mags and be perfectly legal?

bballwizard05
01-09-2010, 11:22 AM
I am just throwing this out there to see if it holds any water. In this section it says it's "illegal to give" but later states except by "California peace officers". This leads to me to wonder can a peace officer GIVE me high cap mags and be perfectly legal?

i read that to mean YOU can give one to an LEO but an LEO would get S canned if he gave one to a civilian...?

turbosbox
01-09-2010, 11:28 AM
I believe there is incorrect information in this thread.
I'm not going to dig for the laws, as I'm not paid to do that, but IIRC you must have owned them IN california before 2000. And notice you can't give lend sell etc. So just because they were made prior to 2000, doesn't mean automatically you can legally have them. That is only half of the picture here.
Someone else suggested lawyering up and letting the burden of proof fall on the prosecution instead of the defense. That sounds like excellent advice. I know it's off topic to the OP, but anyone else reading this thread might get into trouble thinking he is legal to have hicaps as a blanket statement.

C.Strong
01-09-2010, 11:44 AM
I know someone who owns Full Capacity magazines for guns that s/he didn't own before the ban. They knew of it, didn't own any guns at the time, and bought a bunch of mags because they figured they may need them at some point. It is not unreasonable to assume that course of action, in addition to the fact that it is the police and then prosecutions burden to prove that one illegally obtained or manufactured them.

It is my understanding that there is no age restriction on the purchase of magazines so the fact that in 2000 one was lets say 15, wouldn't have been a factor either for the remarkably prepared.

I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice of any kind.

RideIcon
01-09-2010, 11:46 AM
you must have owned them IN california before 2000.

this is untrue, yes someone probably broke the law if you have come into possession of a high cap magazine after 2000, but the penal code does not state coming into possession of one after this date is illegal.

If you bought one, the seller broke the law, if you found one, no laws were broken, if you imported or manufactured then you broke the law.

CAL. PEN. CODE § 12020 : California Code - Section 12020

(a)Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:


(2)Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

(b)Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
(16)Any instrument, ammunition, weapon, or device listed in subdivision (a) that is not a firearm that is found and possessed by a person who meets all of the following:

(A)The person is not prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition pursuant to Section 12021 or 12021.1 or paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 12316 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.

(B)The person possessed the instrument, ammunition, weapon, or device no longer than was necessary to deliver or transport the same to a law enforcement agency for that agency's disposition according to law.

(C)If the person is transporting the listed item, he or she is transporting the listed item to a law enforcement agency for disposition according to law.

(19)The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine to or by any federal, state, county, city and county, or city agency that is charged with the enforcement of any law, for use by agency employees in the discharge of their official duties whether on or off duty, and where the use is authorized by the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.

(20)The sale to, lending to, transfer to, purchase by, receipt of, or importation into this state of, a large-capacity magazine by a sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties.

(21)The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.

(22)The loan of a lawfully possessed large-capacity magazine between two individuals if all of the following conditions are met:

(A)The person being loaned the large-capacity magazine is not prohibited by Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code from possessing firearms or ammunition.

(B)The loan of the large-capacity magazine occurs at a place or location where the possession of the large-capacity magazine is not otherwise prohibited and the person who lends the large-capacity magazine remains in the accessible vicinity of the person to whom the large-capacity magazine is loaned.

(23)The importation of a large-capacity magazine by a person who lawfully possessed the large-capacity magazine in the state prior to January 1, 2000, lawfully took it out of the state, and is returning to the state with the large-capacity magazine previously lawfully possessed in the state.

(24)The lending or giving of any large-capacity magazine to a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071, or to a gunsmith, for the purposes of maintenance, repair, or modification of that large-capacity magazine.

(25)The return to its owner of any large-capacity magazine by a person specified in paragraph (24).

(26)The importation into this state of, or sale of, any large-capacity magazine by a person who has been issued a permit to engage in those activities pursuant to Section 12079, when those activities are in accordance with the terms and conditions of that permit.

(27)The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine, to or by entities that operate armored vehicle businesses pursuant to the laws of this state.

(28)The lending of large-capacity magazines by the entities specified in paragraph (27) to their authorized employees, while in the course and scope of their employment for purposes that pertain to the entity's armored vehicle business.

(29)The return of those large-capacity magazines to those entities specified in paragraph (27) by those employees specified in paragraph (28).

(30)(A)The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for any federal, state, county, city and county, or city agency that is charged with the enforcement of any law, for use by agency employees in the discharge of their official duties whether on or off duty, and where the use is authorized by the agency and is within the course and scope of their duties.

(B)The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for use by a sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties.

(C)The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for export or for sale to government agencies or the military pursuant to applicable federal regulations.

(31)The loan of a large-capacity magazine for use solely as a prop for a motion picture, television, or video production.

(32)The purchase of a large-capacity magazine by the holder of a special weapons permit issued pursuant to Section 12095, 12230, 12250, 12286, or 12305, for any of the following purposes:

(A)For use solely as a prop for a motion picture, television, or video production.

(B)For export pursuant to federal regulations.

(C)For resale to law enforcement agencies, government agencies, or the military, pursuant to applicable federal regulations.

ZombieTactics
01-09-2010, 11:47 AM
Isn't there some kind of statute of limitations on this or something? Like, if you bought the things in Nevada 5 years ago and can prove it, you're OK ... 'cuz there's a 3 or 4 year limitation on prosecution for the so-called "crime"?

DedEye
01-09-2010, 11:48 AM
Oh for God's sake (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Magazine_Questions).

If you don't see the question you have, or the infinitesimally minor variation you have, asked in that list of questions, sign in (or go to this page (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php?title=Special:Userlogin&type=signup&returnto=Main_Page) if you don't yet have an account, it's different from your Calguns log in) and ask your question here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Unanswered_questions).


:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

RideIcon
01-09-2010, 11:53 AM
Isn't there some kind of statute of limitations on this or something? Like, if you bought the things in Nevada 5 years ago and can prove it, you're OK ... 'cuz there's a 3 or 4 year limitation on prosecution for the so-called "crime"?

lol, admitting guilt is still admitting guilt.

why would you have to prove anything unless they accused you of manufacturing or importing the magazine, you are not going to be charged with anything for simple possession of something that IS NOT illegal to possess.

DedEye
01-09-2010, 11:58 AM
Isn't there some kind of statute of limitations on this or something? Like, if you bought the things in Nevada 5 years ago and can prove it, you're OK ... 'cuz there's a 3 or 4 year limitation on prosecution for the so-called "crime"?

What is the Statute of Limitations for violating the laws regarding large capacity magazines? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#What_is_the_Statute_of_Limitations_for_violati ng_the_laws_regarding_large_capacity_magazines.3F)

What should I say if a LEO asks me about my large capacity magazine? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#What_should_I_say_if_a_Law_Enforcement_Officer _.28LEO.29_asks_me_about_my_large_capacity_magazin es.3F)

Mssr. Eleganté
01-09-2010, 12:02 PM
This thread makes me want to...

S-XBPkCTyuU

DedEye
01-09-2010, 12:06 PM
This thread makes me want to...



Then help me improve the Wiki FAQ and get the word out about its existence. No one seems to know we have a Wiki, or a FAQ, and many (and hopefully most) questions are answered in it.

This goes for all members who have a clue of what they're talking about. Instead of repeating the same answers ad nausem, which may take 30 seconds to two minutes to type up and reply with, take that time to check the FAQ, see if the answer is missing, and add it. Or, save yourself 25 to 115 seconds and just post a link to the already existing answer.

leelaw
01-09-2010, 1:33 PM
If you're asking because you illegally came to possess one (calling it "caught" rather than something less incriminating sounding), then disasemble it, let this thread die, and don't speak of it again. Buy 10rdrs and live with them like everyone else does.

As to the crime, depending on what portion of §12020 is uncovered, it's a felony wobbler.

Decoligny
01-09-2010, 4:31 PM
Doesn't say anything here about consequences, which is what the OP asked.

For simply possessing a large capacity magazine, the consequences don't exist, because it is totally legal to possess a high capacity magazine.

Possible Felony charges if they can prove that you imported, manufactured, sold, or gave away a large capacity magazine.

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or
carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge
knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice
handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

pingpong
01-09-2010, 4:38 PM
If you owned it before the year 2000 in California then you are good.

How does this work in regards to the federal ban from 1994-2000? If you got a hi-cap mag in 1999 (technically I guess it would be illegally owned), can you still grandfather it in?

DedEye
01-09-2010, 4:52 PM
How does this work in regards to the federal ban from 1994-2000? If you got a hi-cap mag in 1999 (technically I guess it would be illegally owned), can you still grandfather it in?

It was not illegal to purchase a large capacity magazine in 1999 (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#How_is_the_California_large_capacity_magazine_ ban_affected_by_the_Federal_ban_.28from_1994-2004.29.2C_and_vice_versa.3F).

CnCFunFactory
01-09-2010, 5:06 PM
Wow, all this, and to think that the question of magazine parts kits and their assembly to replace a magazine, or magazine parts you had before 2000 hasn't come up yet. :rolleyes:

RideIcon
01-09-2010, 5:44 PM
just get an illegal immigrant to assemble your parts kit into a new high capacity magazine.

hkusp9c
01-09-2010, 5:53 PM
I believe there is incorrect information in this thread.
I'm not going to dig for the laws, as I'm not paid to do that, but IIRC [U]you must have owned them IN california before 2000.

No you are not remembering it correctly. You run into a boxful of full cap mags in the middle of the desert, it is legally ok for you to keep it. Since posession is ok.

JDay
01-09-2010, 6:09 PM
Doesn't say anything here about consequences, which is what the OP asked.

Possession is not illegal. It's only illegal to import, manufacture, give, lend, sell or keep for sell.

JDay
01-09-2010, 6:13 PM
If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?
No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.

(PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29))

That's FUD! It's illegal to keep for sale, not buy.

Yeah, there's a bit of fud on those pages, the assault weapon roster still includes series rifles when they have to be named by model.

JDay
01-09-2010, 6:15 PM
I believe there is incorrect information in this thread.
I'm not going to dig for the laws, as I'm not paid to do that, but IIRC you must have owned them IN california before 2000. And notice you can't give lend sell etc. So just because they were made prior to 2000, doesn't mean automatically you can legally have them. That is only half of the picture here.
Someone else suggested lawyering up and letting the burden of proof fall on the prosecution instead of the defense. That sounds like excellent advice. I know it's off topic to the OP, but anyone else reading this thread might get into trouble thinking he is legal to have hicaps as a blanket statement.

If an officer starts to question you about when and where you got your mags you should use your 5th amendment rights. Otherwise you'll only talk yourself into jail.

artherd
01-09-2010, 6:45 PM
And, no, I'm not a lawyer.

It's just that every lawyer I've ever hired:

1- was worth the $200+ per hour I paid them, and:

2- should have been called sooner, thus saving me A LOT of lawyer fees!

+1 .

slik442
01-09-2010, 11:34 PM
Is it illegal to possess mags for a colt .22 M4, SW22, or a GSG? Is it legal to possess these mags if you didn't buy, import, or assemble them?

DedEye
01-09-2010, 11:53 PM
Is it illegal to possess mags for a colt .22 M4, SW22, or a GSG? Is it legal to possess these mags if you didn't buy, import, or assemble them?

What part of this answer (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Is_possession_of_a_large_capacity_magazine_ill egal.3F) is in any way unclear?

Is possession of a large capacity magazine illegal?

Possession of a large-capacity magazine is NOT illegal, no matter how you got it or when you got it.



I've only posted four separate links to the FAQ that contains the answer to your question.

In this thread alone.

Librarian
01-10-2010, 6:48 AM
What part of this answer (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Is_possession_of_a_large_capacity_magazine_ill egal.3F) is in any way unclear?

Is possession of a large capacity magazine illegal?

Possession of a large-capacity magazine is NOT illegal, no matter how you got it or when you got it.



I've only posted four separate links to the FAQ that contains the answer to your question.

In this thread alone.

Thus the problem with FAQs, of which I am an unabashed fan.

Some small segment of the readership cannot be bothered to click on a link.

http://therestaurantdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/spoonfed1.jpg

lorax3
01-10-2010, 11:32 AM
Thus the problem with FAQs, of which I am an unabashed fan.


Perhaps a link directly to the CGF wiki in the top blue navigation? I'm sure it was set to be in the new revision but the sooner we can get users to take advantage of that resource the better. It should also get more traffic over there so other users can start contributing.

PM sent to Kes and others.

SJgunguy24
01-10-2010, 12:15 PM
Thus the problem with FAQs, of which I am an unabashed fan.

Some small segment of the readership cannot be bothered to click on a link.

http://therestaurantdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/spoonfed1.jpg

This is whats wrong with people today, they are too damn lazy to put in the work.

Even if that work is sitting at a computer tapping on a fricken keyboard, lazy people suck.


Rant off

Suvorov
01-10-2010, 12:21 PM
Thus the problem with FAQs, of which I am an unabashed fan.

Some small segment of the readership cannot be bothered to click on a link.

http://therestaurantdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/spoonfed1.jpg

And it usually comes from someone with a low post count pretending to be a noob. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't Iggy or Alison having their passive-aggressive fun with us. :TFH:

But then again, as with most conspiracy theories, never underestimate the denseness (or laziness) of others. :rolleyes:

383green
01-10-2010, 12:23 PM
It amazes me that even after the same large capacity magazine question has been asked and answered a few times a week in this forum over the last several years, that the threads are ever more than 2 posts long and are still filled with ill-informed responses and bad recommendations from people who should know better.

Perhaps we could use few new buttons allowing the better-informed members to answer the FAQs with one click, thus automatically providing a reply with a link to the appropriate wiki section and locking the thread? :rolleyes:

I mean no offense to the original poster in this thread. CA's laws are complicated and confusing, and the former federal AW and magazine bans confuse things further, and new people come to Calguns all the time who weren't involved in the years of history here. Still, why should a common question like the original one ever need more than one reply stating something like "Possession is not restricted. Here is a link with more information (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Large-capacity_magazine_restrictions)".

Suvorov
01-10-2010, 12:28 PM
I mean no offense to the original poster in this thread. CA's laws are complicated and confusing, and the former federal AW and magazine bans confuse things further, and new people come to Calguns all the time who weren't involved in the years of history here.

You are right, I'm sure at some level, Kalifornia's Byzantine gun laws are designed so that they will be incomprehensible by most and a breeding ground for FUD.

tazmanian devil dog
01-10-2010, 12:47 PM
Mere possession of a high cap magazine is NOT a crime. Provided you didn't import, assemble, buy,manufacture, lend or sell the mag, you are good to go. The general rule as far as I am concerned is:

1. As stupid and assinying as the law is here in Kalifornia, OBEY IT!!!!!!

2. If you have hi caps, make sure that they are for guns that were already in existance prior to Jan 1 2000. Ex: Don't have an assembled hi cap mag for a XD M pistol unless your a LEO.

3. If you have mag rebuild kits for guns obviously manufactured after the ban, then for God's sake, keep them in kit form unless you take them out of state. Don't lose your rights over something stupid like this.

DedEye
01-10-2010, 1:42 PM
Mere possession of a high cap magazine is NOT a crime. Provided you didn't import, assemble, buy,manufacture, lend or sell the mag, you are good to go. The general rule as far as I am concerned is:

1. As stupid and assinying as the law is here in Kalifornia, OBEY IT!!!!!!

This part is true (except for "buy," in bold), but after about 40 posts of people saying the same thing already, what good did it do to repeat it?

2. If you have hi caps, make sure that they are for guns that were already in existance prior to Jan 1 2000. Ex: Don't have an assembled hi cap mag for a XD M pistol unless your a LEO.

This is FUD.

3. If you have mag rebuild kits for guns obviously manufactured after the ban, then for God's sake, keep them in kit form unless you take them out of state. Don't lose your rights over something stupid like this.

This is also (partially) FUD. If you have mag rebuild kits that aren't for repairing your legally owned magazines, don't use them to assemble new magazines. That's true no matter when the firearm or magazine in question was designed or created.




Do we really have to keep having this conversation over and over? In the same thread, no less?

GrizzlyGuy
01-10-2010, 3:57 PM
Thus the problem with FAQs, of which I am an unabashed fan.

Some small segment of the readership cannot be bothered to click on a link.

http://therestaurantdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/spoonfed1.jpg

There seems to be two different sets of FAQs. I was familiar with this one (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions), and it is easy to find. If you google your way (http://www.google.com/search?q=calguns+wiki) to the Calguns Foundation Wiki Main Page (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page) (first result in that Google search), then click FAQ (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page#FAQ) in the contents, followed by clicking Frequently Asked Questions (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions) in the FAQ section... you finally get to here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions).

There seems to be an entirely different (and better, IMHO) FAQ here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ). Until DedEye linked to it in his 'Oh for God's sake' (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3614162&postcount=26) post above, I'd never seen it. I have no idea how one would navigate to it. I've tried to find a link to it from the Calguns Foundation Wiki Main Page (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page), and from the other FAQ (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions), and haven't been successful. Google sends me to the other one when I do a search (http://www.google.com/search?q=calguns+wiki+faq) as well.

Did I miss something obvious in FAQ-finding?

DedEye
01-10-2010, 4:47 PM
There seems to be two different sets of FAQs. I was familiar with this one (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions), and it is easy to find. If you google your way (http://www.google.com/search?q=calguns+wiki) to the Calguns Foundation Wiki Main Page (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page) (first result in that Google search), then click FAQ (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page#FAQ) in the contents, followed by clicking Frequently Asked Questions (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions) in the FAQ section... you finally get to here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions)

....

Did I miss something obvious in FAQ-finding?

That one's actually my fault. The FAQ I linked to, URL: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ, is a work in progress I've been working on for a few months with the help of folks like Librarian. It started as a simple combination of the FAQ pages from the Frequently Asked Questions (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions), then was edited for clarity and formatting. The end goal is to integrate the contents of the FAQ into the new Calguns.net and make it more easily navigable. In the meantime, it is still very much a work in progress and needs far more answers provided. Some of the sections still don't have the proper "Question - Answer" formatting I'm trying to keep uniform, and some questions simply don't have an answer.

Eventually, I'd also like to get the footnotes and references integrated into the answers, rather than simply list a random assortment of links at the bottom of the page. No matter what, we need help to improve the FAQ, so I repeat my request made here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3614221&postcount=30).

GrizzlyGuy
01-10-2010, 5:11 PM
That one's actually my fault. The FAQ I linked to, URL: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ, is a work in progress I've been working on for a few months with the help of folks like Librarian. It started as a simple combination of the FAQ pages from the Frequently Asked Questions (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions), then was edited for clarity and formatting. The end goal is to integrate the contents of the FAQ into the new Calguns.net and make it more easily navigable. In the meantime, it is still very much a work in progress and needs far more answers provided. Some of the sections still don't have the proper "Question - Answer" formatting I'm trying to keep uniform, and some questions simply don't have an answer.

Eventually, I'd also like to get the footnotes and references integrated into the answers, rather than simply list a random assortment of links at the bottom of the page. No matter what, we need help to improve the FAQ, so I repeat my request made here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3614221&postcount=30).

Ahhhhh.... Thanks, now it makes sense.

I volunteer to help. I have a big MS Word file full of firearms laws (and other related laws), links, etc. that I've been maintaining for myself and for cut-and-paste responses to common questions that pop up in the forum. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't mind researching and reading until I understand something and can explain or summarize it. I'd be happy to work on whatever needs working on.

DedEye
01-10-2010, 5:15 PM
Ahhhhh.... Thanks, now it makes sense.

I volunteer to help. I have a big MS Word file full of firearms laws (and other related laws), links, etc. that I've been maintaining for myself and for cut-and-paste responses to common questions that pop up in the forum. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't mind researching and reading until I understand something and can explain or summarize it. I'd be happy to work on whatever needs working on.

Very glad you volunteered before I had to send you a PM asking for your help :).

All knowledgeable members are encouraged to assist in updating the FAQ and Wiki. The objective with the FAQ is simple, yes/no answers with at most 2 or 3 lines of explanation when absolutely necessary.

In short, if you see an answer that is insufficient, or a question that isn't there, add it!

PM me your email address and I can add you to the Google Wave for the FAQ.

383green
01-10-2010, 5:26 PM
PM me your email address and I can add you to the Google Wave for the FAQ.

I have 25 Google Wave invitations that I can donate to the cause if needed.

GrizzlyGuy
01-10-2010, 6:24 PM
Very glad you volunteered before I had to send you a PM asking for your help :).

All knowledgeable members are encouraged to assist in updating the FAQ and Wiki. The objective with the FAQ is simple, yes/no answers with at most 2 or 3 lines of explanation when absolutely necessary.

In short, if you see an answer that is insufficient, or a question that isn't there, add it!

PM me your email address and I can add you to the Google Wave for the FAQ.

Excellent, PM sent!

SKSer
01-10-2010, 6:50 PM
"In 1998 I really wanted to own an AR-15, but I didnt have the money for one so I started buying it piece by piece, I started with the cheap 30 rd magazines"

Librarian
01-10-2010, 7:03 PM
Ahhhhh.... Thanks, now it makes sense.

I volunteer to help. I have a big MS Word file full of firearms laws (and other related laws), links, etc. that I've been maintaining for myself and for cut-and-paste responses to common questions that pop up in the forum. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't mind researching and reading until I understand something and can explain or summarize it. I'd be happy to work on whatever needs working on.

Good on ya! Thanks.

Do note that the info is already three tiers deep - the simplest, single-question presentation that Dedeye has been collating (ETA and expanding!), the FAQ in my sig, which you found already, and the wiki articles which are the sources, mostly, for my FAQ pages. There's around 400 K bytes on the Wiki content pages, maybe 60K words or so - sort of a long novel.

Cos
01-10-2010, 7:04 PM
Excellent work on the FAQ, folks! Thank you for putting this all together.

Fobanginvtek
01-19-2010, 1:39 AM
Welp that was alot of info/help. No this did not happen to me. But lets say i was walking back to my car from the range.........and I came across a 20 or 30 round mag for my AR.....I took it home. Is there anything illegal here? Can I continue to use it? SInce i did not, buy, sell, manufacture, intend to sell. I just intend to keep possession of it and use it =D. JUST SAYING, not saying this happened.

team1320
01-19-2010, 1:51 AM
Owning a high cap mag is not illegal. Importing one is illegal. If you owned it before the year 2000 in California then you are good.


how would one prove they've owned the hi-cap mags since before that date? I'm sure most don't have 10+year old receipts..

GrizzlyGuy
01-19-2010, 6:47 AM
As DedEye has repeatedly pointed out, the all-knowing, ever-prescient FAQ (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ) contains the answers to virtually every conceivable magazine question (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Magazine_Questions): :)

Welp that was alot of info/help. No this did not happen to me. But lets say i was walking back to my car from the range.........and I came across a 20 or 30 round mag for my AR.....I took it home. Is there anything illegal here? Can I continue to use it? SInce i did not, buy, sell, manufacture, intend to sell. I just intend to keep possession of it and use it =D. JUST SAYING, not saying this happened.

Use it and enjoy it: Is possession of a large capacity magazine illegal? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Is_possession_of_a_large_capacity_magazine_ill egal.3F)

how would one prove they've owned the hi-cap mags since before that date? I'm sure most don't have 10+year old receipts..

Do I need to keep any proof that I legally acquired my magazines? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Do_I_need_to_keep_any_proof_that_I_legally_acq uired_my_magazines.3F)

What should I say if a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) asks me about my large-capacity magazines? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#What_should_I_say_if_a_Law_Enforcement_Officer _.28LEO.29_asks_me_about_my_large-capacity_magazines.3F)

Glock22Fan
01-19-2010, 7:23 AM
"In 1998 I really wanted to own an AR-15, but I didnt have the money for one so I started buying it piece by piece, I started with the cheap 30 rd magazines I'm sorry, but do you have any evidence to suggest that I imported or manufactured these magazines within the last three years?"

Altered.

Actually, you shouldn't say this much. All you should say is "It is not illegal to possess high capacity magazines" and "Talk with my lawyer about it."

RideIcon
01-19-2010, 4:22 PM
I came across a 20 or 30 round mag for my AR.....I took it home. Is there anything illegal here? Can I continue to use it?

No crime committed, legal to use as long as its not in a BB equipped ar

God Bless The Mauser
01-19-2010, 7:11 PM
What about belts for belt feds? I thought it says belted or liked ammunition but it doesn't say anything about the belts or links themselves. Don't mean to thread jack but I didn't want to start another thread for it. I'm going to build a CA legal MG42 and I would like to keep some 50 round belts for out of state shooting and chop some into 10 round sections for CA use.

383green
01-19-2010, 7:34 PM
What about belts for belt feds? I thought it says belted or liked ammunition but it doesn't say anything about the belts or links themselves.

To the best of my knowledge, a belt which can hold more than 10 rounds is considered to be a large-capacity magazine, and is restricted in exactly the same ways as a 30-round AR magazine (for example), unless it's permanently modified to hold no more than 10 rounds. I believe this would apply to either cloth belts or metal belts with non-disintegrating links.

For disintegrating links, it's my understanding that individual links are unrestricted as if they were one-round magazines, but no more than 10 of them may be assembled together with ammunition without being considered manufacturing of a large-capacity magazine. While I don't have anything solid to cite here, I've heard it recommended to never shoot a pre-2000 linked assembly below 11 rounds, so that when more rounds are added back on it will not be considered manufacturing of a new magazine. Also, when assembling a new 10-round belt with post-2000 links, I would not use more than 10 links to hold the 10 rounds of ammo. Such a belt can be assembled differently with 11 links and only 10 rounds, but such a belt would be able to hold an 11th round, and thus be a large-capacity magazine (just as if it was an 11-round box magazine with only 10 rounds inserted).

I don't know how correct this information is, but unfortunately the law appears to have been written with box magazines in mind, and disintegrating links work differently enough to leave some room for interpretation.

383green
01-19-2010, 7:44 PM
I'm going to build a CA legal MG42 and I would like to keep some 50 round belts for out of state shooting and chop some into 10 round sections for CA use.

If you don't have any legally-acquired long belts in CA already, then you'll need to store those 50-round belts outside of CA whether they're empty or loaded, and do any cutting outside of CA before bringing them in.

If you do already have legally-acquired (that us, pre-2000) long belts here in CA, I wouldn't cut those ones. Just like 30-round box magazines that were possessed in CA before 2000, it would be legal to possess and use those long belts in CA as long as you don't use them in a way that would trigger assault-weapon status (such as in a centerfire rifle with any of the restricted features).

Just think of them as if they were 50-round detachable box magazines for purposes of understanding how the large-capacity magazine ban affects them.

leoffensive
01-19-2010, 9:10 PM
this is interesting. i'm nearly done building my ar 15 and my friends brother brought back his m16 mags from iraq. i want some 30 rounders but if he gave me his old service mags it would be illegal? they said something like "military/law enforcement/Export use only"


i cant legally receive these as a gift can i?

Cokebottle
01-19-2010, 9:59 PM
i cant legally receive these as a gift can i?
He cannot legally give them to you, nor can he import them into the state.

Also, keep in mind that regardless of the semantics and enforceability of the high-cap mag laws, USING A HIGH-CAP MAGAZINE IN A BULLET-BUTTON EQUIPPED SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLE RESULTS IN MAKING THAT RIFLE AN ASSAULT WEAPON!!!!

Featureless build + conventional mag release + high-caps = legal
Fixed-magazing configuration (even if featureless) + high-caps = assault weapon

NiteQwill
01-20-2010, 12:15 AM
He cannot legally give them to you, nor can he import them into the state.

:confused:

ISSUED magazines? In the scope of military duties? ;)

If he is a member of the armed forces and stationed in California...

Fobanginvtek
01-20-2010, 3:19 AM
Again, I said this did not happen. I am only saying if it were to happen. So please don't point fingers.

Fobanginvtek
01-20-2010, 3:25 AM
He cannot legally give them to you, nor can he import them into the state.

Also, keep in mind that regardless of the semantics and enforceability of the high-cap mag laws, USING A HIGH-CAP MAGAZINE IN A BULLET-BUTTON EQUIPPED SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLE RESULTS IN MAKING THAT RIFLE AN ASSAULT WEAPON!!!!

Featureless build + conventional mag release + high-caps = legal
Fixed-magazing configuration (even if featureless) + high-caps = assault weapon

OK i get it, so if USING it, makes it an assault weapon therefore is Illegal. But just being in possession of one, is legal correct?

califchoate
01-20-2010, 9:19 AM
So let me get this straight... I can legally use my hi-cap magazines, that work in both ARs and Mini-14, in my Mini-14, but not in my CA legal AR. How insane is that?

-Steve C.

Barbarossa
01-20-2010, 9:47 AM
You can Not use them in a rifle with features. (and BB of course)
You Can use them in a featureless rifle.

Check out the flowchart.

Blue
01-20-2010, 9:50 AM
So let me get this straight... I can legally use my hi-cap magazines, that work in both ARs and Mini-14, in my Mini-14, but not in my CA legal AR. How insane is that?

-Steve C.

You can use them in your CA legal AR if you follow the rules. What kind of mags work in both AR's and Mini's?

Cokebottle
01-20-2010, 10:13 AM
OK i get it, so if USING it, makes it an assault weapon therefore is Illegal. But just being in possession of one, is legal correct?
Correct. Mere possession is not a crime.

Cokebottle
01-20-2010, 10:16 AM
:confused:

ISSUED magazines? In the scope of military duties? ;)

If he is a member of the armed forces and stationed in California...
Issued = property of the US taxpayers. That would not be one that he could legally offer for gift/sale/lend in any state, so while importation while stationed in California would not be a crime, it would still be a crime to offer it to someone else, with a federal charge of theft of taxpayer property added to the California charge of offering a high-cap.

NiteQwill
01-20-2010, 10:23 AM
Issued = property of the US taxpayers. That would not be one that he could legally offer for gift/sale/lend in any state, so while importation while stationed in California would not be a crime, it would still be a crime to offer it to someone else, with a federal charge of theft of taxpayer property added to the California charge of offering a high-cap.

Issued =/ property of US taxpayers, it's PAID for by taxpayers and in many cases permanent issue to servicemembers until DX'd (boots, clothing, magazines, etc.). Unless you want my ISSUED brown underwear... ;)

Per new regulations via DoD, since the streamline of electronic inventory (at least in the Army's case, which I am familiar with), we now possess all items we sign for. We are now responsible for the care and maintenance of our items, from magazines to canteen cups, and are required to store and secure them in our place.

Just FYI

Of course I understand the giving part, I was just questioning the importation and possession part of your statement.

ke6guj
01-20-2010, 10:41 AM
What kind of mags work in both AR's and Mini's?umm, ones that were designed to be used in both :D

I do seem to recall one brand of magazines that were designed to be usable in both types of firearms, a plastic one, IIRC.

yup, found them, http://www.franksgunstuff.com/wvss/product_info.php?products_id=338&osCsid=88fdb82b8e0991bffb4e56b4f8ecbe22

Cokebottle
01-20-2010, 10:45 AM
Per new regulations via DoD, since the streamline of electronic inventory (at least in the Army's case, which I am familiar with), we now possess all items we sign for. We are now responsible for the care and maintenance of our items, from magazines to canteen cups, and are required to store and secure them in our place.
You aren't required to return your guns/magazines at discharge?

I have company equipment issued to me all the time. I have to sign for it, and am responsible for it's care and maintenance... but that doesn't give me the right to sell it or give it away.

NiteQwill
01-20-2010, 11:28 AM
You aren't required to return your guns/magazines at discharge?

I have company equipment issued to me all the time. I have to sign for it, and am responsible for it's care and maintenance... but that doesn't give me the right to sell it or give it away.

I have to read the entire new directive (actually, not new... it's been late to phase it into Guard/Reserve units as usual ;) ), but certain wearable/serviceable items you can keep.

I never intended on having the related-OP's brother sell/give them, that's a no-go. :)

It can be a good or bad thing we get to keep our stuff out of the cage... good that your stuff is for "you," bad for your wallet if you lose that ACH... :eek:

Cokebottle
01-20-2010, 12:04 PM
It can be a good or bad thing we get to keep our stuff out of the cage... good that your stuff is for "you," bad for your wallet if you lose that ACH... :eek:
I certainly hear that!

CAL.BAR
01-20-2010, 12:16 PM
And, no, I'm not a lawyer.

It's just that every lawyer I've ever hired:

1- was worth the $200+ per hour I paid them, and:

2- should have been called sooner, thus saving me A LOT of lawyer fees!

+1000 on that sentiment. As a criminal defense atty here in OC, I cannot emphasize strongly enough that it's almost never too soon to call any attorney and NEVER NEVER NEVER talk to strangers or the cops. It NEVER works out well for you.

IGOTDIRT4U
01-20-2010, 12:56 PM
What is the Statute of Limitations for violating the laws regarding large capacity magazines? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#What_is_the_Statute_of_Limitations_for_violati ng_the_laws_regarding_large_capacity_magazines.3F)

What should I say if a LEO asks me about my large capacity magazine? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#What_should_I_say_if_a_Law_Enforcement_Officer _.28LEO.29_asks_me_about_my_large_capacity_magazin es.3F)

Any way we can add a footnote to the applicable code or statute that pertains to the first question? It would be helpful to have the SOL statute number.

lorax3
01-20-2010, 2:42 PM
Any way we can add a footnote to the applicable code or statute that pertains to the first question? It would be helpful to have the SOL statute number.

Sure. Just added it. PC 801. Anyone can edit the wiki you know. :)

leoffensive
01-20-2010, 8:28 PM
He cannot legally give them to you, nor can he import them into the state.

Also, keep in mind that regardless of the semantics and enforceability of the high-cap mag laws, USING A HIGH-CAP MAGAZINE IN A BULLET-BUTTON EQUIPPED SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLE RESULTS IN MAKING THAT RIFLE AN ASSAULT WEAPON!!!!

Featureless build + conventional mag release + high-caps = legal
Fixed-magazing configuration (even if featureless) + high-caps = assault weapon

ahh ok so its illegal for me to use it. i guess i wont see if he would give them to me haha. unless of course i move out of state and do away with the BB

Fate
01-20-2010, 8:37 PM
Anyone can edit the wiki you know. :)

Which is precisely why it could be dangerous to rely on it for your info. It's a good start, but not an end-all.

Stryfe76
01-20-2010, 9:06 PM
umm, ones that were designed to be used in both :D

I do seem to recall one brand of magazines that were designed to be usable in both types of firearms, a plastic one, IIRC.

yup, found them, http://www.franksgunstuff.com/wvss/product_info.php?products_id=338&osCsid=88fdb82b8e0991bffb4e56b4f8ecbe22


Hold on a moment! Can found damaged 30rd Mini-14 mags be rebuilt with these combo mag bodies and be used in a featureless AR15 build?

ke6guj
01-20-2010, 9:50 PM
ahh ok so its illegal for me to use it. i guess i wont see if he would give them to me haha. unless of course i move out of state and do away with the BBor if you go featureless.

Which is precisely why it could be dangerous to rely on it for your info. It's a good start, but not an end-all.correct. Don't rely on what anybody tells you. Use what they tell you as a starting point to look up the law for yourself.

Hold on a moment! Can found damaged 30rd Mini-14 mags be rebuilt with these combo mag bodies and be used in a featureless AR15 build?I don't see why not.

lorax3
01-20-2010, 11:43 PM
Which is precisely why it could be dangerous to rely on it for your info. It's a good start, but not an end-all.

Right, but unlike other wiki-esque websites facts can much more easily be verified by PC and case law.

califchoate
01-22-2010, 1:06 PM
They are 30 round and made by Ramline. I've owned them since 1989, so I don't know if they still make them.

Denver
01-22-2010, 2:51 PM
Wierd, but since I have been paying more attention to it in the last year I am noticing that at the rifle ranges there are more and more people who have "Assault Rifles" and seem obliviouse to the laws, or don't care. It has happened to me 3 times in the last 6 months where someone next to me is shooting an AR-15 with a detachable magazine and "evil features galore". They seem oblivious to the laws.

Being that I am non confrontational I never hit them up except in an extreemly round about way when they oogle over my space gun. I explain to them that it looks like that because I had to make it featurless so I can change my magazine normally. They go, Huh? I then take the time to explain the laws on these rifles and they just look back with blank stares. In fact, most of the general population with these rifles seems either very ignorant over the laws or they just do not seem to care. I am beginning to think that the only place shooters seem to care is on this forum. Like the laws never get enforced around here or something.

It's ironic that since I swapped over with the Hammerhead setup / Ace ULE stock, everyone seems to flock over to my table inquiring about the crazy bad *** looking rifle. Questions like where do I get that and how much or do you want to sell it abound. I just laugh inside wishing I could just be normal and have a pistol grip.

Denver
01-22-2010, 2:53 PM
AHH, been a long day, the above needs to get deleted. I thought I was posting a new thread, sorry.

mblat
01-22-2010, 3:38 PM
Wierd, but since I have been paying more attention to it in the last year I am noticing that at the rifle ranges there are more and more people who have "Assault Rifles" and seem obliviouse to the laws, or don't care. It has happened to me 3 times in the last 6 months where someone next to me is shooting an AR-15 with a detachable magazine and "evil features galore". They seem oblivious to the laws.

Being that I am non confrontational I never hit them up except in an extreemly round about way when they oogle over my space gun. I explain to them that it looks like that because I had to make it featurless so I can change my magazine normally. They go, Huh? I then take the time to explain the laws on these rifles and they just look back with blank stares. In fact, most of the general population with these rifles seems either very ignorant over the laws or they just do not seem to care. I am beginning to think that the only place shooters seem to care is on this forum. Like the laws never get enforced around here or something.

It's ironic that since I swapped over with the Hammerhead setup / Ace ULE stock, everyone seems to flock over to my table inquiring about the crazy bad *** looking rifle. Questions like where do I get that and how much or do you want to sell it abound. I just laugh inside wishing I could just be normal and have a pistol grip.

People don't care because that law generally not enforced. With tens of thousands of ARs and AKs coming into CA in the last couple years you see them every day at ranges. Cops used to see them and no longer pay any attention. I've shot mine (legally configured) and many cops just walked by - no questions. And without looking at the rifle closely you can't really tell. I think that three years ago if you sow up at Angeles with totally legally configured AR you would probably get arrested very fast. Now...... not really.
Note:
1. I am not advocating violating the law.
2. If you will get popped you will loose you rifle and a lot of money - for very least.
3. If you get arrested for something else - that would surely be thrown in as "enhancement" charge.

Librarian
01-22-2010, 4:00 PM
Which is precisely why it could be dangerous to rely on it for your info. It's a good start, but not an end-all.

Point.

But some of us are watching the Calguns Foundation Wiki pretty carefully to try to prevent badness creeping in.

Won't be perfect, even if never edited with mischief in mind.

DesertCobra
03-03-2010, 4:03 PM
Your defense is going to matter on what kind of magazine and the capacity. If it was a GI issue " you got some explaining to do", if it is a pmag like a recent make post 2k " you got some explaining to do" If it is a standard store bought issue 20-30 rdr not looking so bad. This is just my opinion and should not be taken as legal advice or statements in any way. Hopefully you have a good excuse or reason for having it. If your having interaction with a LEO your already asking for trouble possibly.

Aleksandr Mravinsky
03-03-2010, 4:28 PM
The SOL for importing high-caps is three years, so, hypothetically speaking, you could have gotten this magazine in 2006-07 and there'd be nothing they could do about it. The burden is on the state to prove that you imported it less than three years prior (or that you imported it at all).

HazeyWolf
03-03-2010, 4:58 PM
Originally Posted by Stryfe76: "Hold on a moment! Can found damaged 30rd Mini-14 mags be rebuilt with these combo mag bodies and be used in a featureless AR15 build?"

or if you go featureless.

correct. Don't rely on what anybody tells you. Use what they tell you as a starting point to look up the law for yourself.

I don't see why not.

Charming little anecdote:

I heard a friend that a friend of his said some guy he used to know had some old 30 rd. mags that started to malfunction, so he bought some "re-build" kits online and replaced a few springs, a few plates, few mag cases on his old mags. I don't know where he got the mags orginally - maybe a friend gave them to him in the 90s or he found them discarded in some lonely place...

In any case, over time, he's probably completely (and legally) rebuilt his old mags and they work like they're brand new - but they're only "re-builds"... not newly manufactured. I guess maybe he's stocked up on variety of different re-build kits and has a mix of parts from different manufacturers re-build kits. I imagine it'd be unwise to cavort around publc with large capacity magazines, in any event...

There should be a law the forbids any unenforcable law from being passed... wonder how our legislators would spend all their free time, should such a law come to pass?

Ca Patriot
03-03-2010, 5:09 PM
I am sure this has been posted before but i'll repost it just in case. Its a good read. I am not sure exactly who originally posted it

I am a prosecutor in California. I believe this law is unworkable from a prosecution perspective for a number of reasons. Before I go further I need to impose this caveat: none of us, especially me, know as much as all of us. And this is only my opinion and I was wrong as recently as last week.

The law criminalizes the following conduct: importation, sale, transfer, offering for sale, and manufacture of large capacity magazines. It does not criminalize possession or, interestingly, purchase of large capacity magazines.

My experience with this law is that many law enforcement officers believe possession of large capacity magazines is proscribed. As has been pointed out correctly and often, possession alone is not a crime.

I have had many cases where people who possessed assault weapons or machine guns and were engaged in robbery or other serious felonies, also had large capacity magazines. My office has never (repeat NEVER) brought a charge based on violating the large capacity magazine ban. Why?

Because it is all but impossible to prove, absent some very unwise admissions by the suspect. The law enforcement officers involved, believing possession violates the law, never ask the right questions and don't get the necessary admissions. By the time I see the case so has the defendant's lawyer and we are not getting any more admissions.

Here is my analysis. First in order to prosecute anyone for any crime I have to be able to assert jurisdiction over the conduct. This can be somewhat complicated when dealing with offenses such as conspiracy or that can occur in multiple jurisdictions. The large capacity magazine statute is simple in this regard: it is not a continuing offense. So the first question is this: did the crime happen in my county? That would be the importation (hmm? not a border county), manufacture, etc.

The next hurdle is the statue of limitations. The general statute applies and because the crime can be charged as a felony it is three years. I don't see any of the exceptions as being generally applicable (perhaps the absence of the defendant from the state, but that implicates a new importation charge and again there is the jurisdiction issue.) Even if the circumstances do not implicate a new importation I still need to know when the criminal conduct occured and absent something unusual and unlikely that isn't going to happen.

With two major hurdles in the way we have the fact that, at least in my opinion the importer is the person who causes the magazines to pass into the state and that is the shipper and not the person placing the order. Others might disagree, but I see it this way. The person placing the order is only inviting the person filling the order to engage in the conduct.

Oh, but it could be a conspiracy? Yes, but conspiracy is devilishly hard to prove. First, it is a specific intent crime and that means there had to be an agreement and a specific intent to violate the law as part of the agreement. Mistake of law is a defense to a specific intent crime. If the only facts available are the fact of possession it is overwhelmingly unlikely that I can prove jurisdiction, that a crime happened within the limitations period, or that the conduct specifically proscribed by the statue occurred at all.

Despite this being a generally a crime that cannot be prosecuted I recommend exercise if care not to run afoul of the statute. For instance, I recently purchased an HK P7M13 from a list member. I got a magazine kit with the gun. I assembled the magazine kit into a magazine blocked to 10 rounds. I then found a supplier willing to ship magazines to California in a disassembled condition as kits. I will assemble this "kits" as magazines blocked to 10 rounds. Everything is kosher. If someone were to assemble them as 13 round magazines there are three hurdles to overcome before there could be a successful prosecution: jurisdiction, statute of limitations, and proving the actual criminal conduct. None of these could be proved without admissions from the person being prosecuted.

Thus we have an unworkable law. But let's not say that too loudly lest the law be changed to the disadvantage of us all. If a law enforcement officer takes exception to a person possessing a large capacity magazine there is no obligation to offer any explanation and probably no good reason to do so.

These are my thoughts and the beauty of this forum is that if there are any flaws in my facts or analysis someone will quickly point them out.

DedEye
03-03-2010, 5:13 PM
Your defense is going to matter on what kind of magazine and the capacity. If it was a GI issue " you got some explaining to do", if it is a pmag like a recent make post 2k " you got some explaining to do" If it is a standard store bought issue 20-30 rdr not looking so bad. This is just my opinion and should not be taken as legal advice or statements in any way. Hopefully you have a good excuse or reason for having it. If your having interaction with a LEO your already asking for trouble possibly.

You bumped a month old thread to post inaccurate information based on your opinion. Why? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Magazine_Questions)

bigcalidave
03-03-2010, 5:51 PM
ROFL... Dedeye got it.

CSACANNONEER
03-03-2010, 6:49 PM
Your defense is going to matter on what kind of magazine and the capacity. If it was a GI issue " you got some explaining to do", if it is a pmag like a recent make post 2k " you got some explaining to do" If it is a standard store bought issue 20-30 rdr not looking so bad. This is just my opinion and should not be taken as legal advice or statements in any way. Hopefully you have a good excuse or reason for having it. If your having interaction with a LEO your already asking for trouble possibly.

You got that part right! As a gun club administrator, you should really know this stuff already. Also, if "you've got some explaining to do," the first thing you should explain is that you have nothing to say and your attorney can explain when the time is right.

Sniper3142
03-03-2010, 6:57 PM
Your defense is going to matter on what kind of magazine and the capacity. If it was a GI issue " you got some explaining to do", if it is a pmag like a recent make post 2k " you got some explaining to do" If it is a standard store bought issue 20-30 rdr not looking so bad. This is just my opinion and should not be taken as legal advice or statements in any way. Hopefully you have a good excuse or reason for having it. If your having interaction with a LEO your already asking for trouble possibly.

Wow.

It is unusually that somesome get So Many things So Wrong.

:(

POSSESSION of 10+ magazines is TOTALLY LEGAL. There will be NOTHING to explain to anyone.

JDay
03-03-2010, 7:04 PM
Your defense is going to matter on what kind of magazine and the capacity. If it was a GI issue " you got some explaining to do", if it is a pmag like a recent make post 2k " you got some explaining to do" If it is a standard store bought issue 20-30 rdr not looking so bad. This is just my opinion and should not be taken as legal advice or statements in any way. Hopefully you have a good excuse or reason for having it. If your having interaction with a LEO your already asking for trouble possibly.

Three words "magazine rebuild kit."

ErikTheRed
03-03-2010, 7:22 PM
Its kinda funny--- as often as this topic comes up, and as much as people want to smash their face against the screen when it does, these "mag capacity" threads always seem to go on pages after pages. It must be a topic people love to hate.

Anyhow, suppose you bought your mags at a swap meet a couple years ago, say, like from some greasy bearded fella at Denio's in Roseville. Cash deal, no reciept. You don't know the guy from the man on the moon. Buying hi-cap mags is not illegal, and neither is possesion. So it doesn't appear any law was broken except by the greasy bearded fella who sold them to you, and he is long gone without identity. Now, I'm not an attorney, nor LEO, but this might be an instance of "engaging as a party to an illegal sale", which carries a different charge altogether. Could you still be prosecuted for having the hi-cap mags in this case?

Come on now, admit it...... its a good question.

maxwellca21
03-03-2010, 7:28 PM
nothing...just keep your mouth shut.

ErikTheRed
03-03-2010, 7:50 PM
Alot of advice saying to keep your mouth shut, don't say anything to LEO other than "talk to my attorney". OK, that works on the LEO. But now isn't the lawyer gonna ask you questions? What do you tell him? (or her)

Cokebottle
03-03-2010, 8:02 PM
Alot of advice saying to keep your mouth shut, don't say anything to LEO other than "talk to my attorney". OK, that works on the LEO. But now isn't the lawyer gonna ask you questions? What do you tell him? (or her)
Always tell your lawyer the 100% and complete truth.
He cannot properly defend you if the prosecution is able to dig up a "surprise" that you didn't tell him about.
Attorney-Client prevents him from releasing your information to anyone.

If you have admitted guilt to your attorney, he will (generally) not put you on the stand and allow you to perjure yourself.


If you've got a good "gun guy" attorney, he will be able to develop a defense.
If you've got a public defender.... maybe it's best not to tell him the truth ;)