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avdrummerboy
01-08-2010, 11:13 PM
Hey everybody,

I had a few questions regarding the legality of carrying a shotgun in the car with you. First, I do know that it needs to be unloaded, mag and all. My shotgun has a shell holder on the stock and I know that that is not considered loaded, thats a go.

The first one is, is the trunk considered a "locked container" in terms of shotguns (and other long guns)? Or will one need a locking gun case as well?

Second, if I decide to have it inside with me, my understanding of the strange CA laws is that it needs to be inside a locked case, unloaded, and out of reach, such as the back seat. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance.

cbn620
01-08-2010, 11:45 PM
Technically you could strap it to the roof of your car or put it on a truck gun rack... as long as its unloaded you're golden. I don't believe there is any language about locking containers for long guns, nor any language about it being in reach. Just so long as they are unloaded. Of course handguns are different.

The real problem is if you want something in plain sight. If you get stopped and an officer sees a gun sitting out, you may be legal, but you may be in for unnecessary hassle. They can do a 12031 check on the firearm to insure it is not loaded. It may, and I say may not to imply legality but possibility, make you subject to vehicle search and other things that will take up your time if the officer feels he has probable cause.

I think best bet to avoid all trouble is to keep it in the trunk. That is just my opinion, and my opinion doesn't mean much. I am also not a legal scholar, so take this as you will. The appropriate penal code sections for this information are all over these forums if you do some really heavy searching.

FastFinger
01-08-2010, 11:46 PM
You are correct, sort of... The shotgun must be unloaded, but shells can be attached to the shotgun (shell holder etc.).

However the unloaded shotgun does not need to be in a locked container, except in school zones.

A locked trunk is considered a locked container. So in a school zone the unloaded shotgun can be in a locked trunk.

ENTHUSIAST
01-08-2010, 11:47 PM
The first one is, is the trunk considered a "locked container" in terms of shotguns (and other long guns)? Or will one need a locking gun case as well?


YES. Your trunk is legally considered a locked container.


Second, if I decide to have it inside with me, my understanding of the strange CA laws is that it needs to be inside a locked case, unloaded, and out of reach, such as the back seat. Is this correct?

NO. Long guns (Rifles & Shotguns) MUST be unloaded during transport but do NOT have to be in a locked container.

Just do not leave it in "PLAIN VIEW" or a cop can search your car for any possible LOADED weapons.

Keep ALL firearms and related items out of sight and UNLOADED and you will be fine.

Pistols must be UNLOADED and in a locked container. (Your trunk is fine for this.)

CalNRA
01-08-2010, 11:51 PM
NO. Long guns (Rifles & Shotguns) MUST be unloaded during transport but do NOT have to be in a locked container.

Just do not leave it in "PLAIN VIEW" or a cop can search your car for any possible LOADED weapons.

Keep ALL firearms and related items out of sight and UNLOADED and you will be fine.


...school zones, school zones, school zones.

If you drive through any sizable city, your guns better be in a locking container or the truck of a car.

MP301
01-09-2010, 12:10 AM
I thought only handguns needed to be in a locked container in a 1000' school zone...can someone clarify this?

JDay
01-09-2010, 1:26 AM
There is no requirement to transport long guns in a locked container, you can even transport handguns in plain sight. The only exception to this is handguns in a school zone must be in a locked container unless you have a CCW. Long guns can even be concealed.

MP301
01-09-2010, 1:32 AM
To confirm Jday, ONLY handguns need to be locked up in a container in a school zone, not long guns, correct? That is what I thought...

JDay
01-09-2010, 1:35 AM
To confirm Jday, ONLY handguns need to be locked up in a container in a school zone, not long guns, correct? That is what I thought...

Long guns aren't considered to be concealable so they do not need to be locked up.

ETA: You do have to be on private property (i.e. in your vehicle) and it has to be concealed. This is per federal law. California law only restricts the transport of concealed handguns that are not locked up and loaded weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

(1) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
Exception: This does not include possession of a firearm on private property that is not part of school grounds or possession of a loaded firearm by an individual who is licensed to do so by the State. (i.e. a concealed carry, weapon, or firearm permit).

Interesting thing however, to be in violation of this act the prosecutor has to "prove an additional element, that the "firearm has moved in or otherwise affects interstate commerce."

MP301
01-09-2010, 1:46 AM
Thats very interesting on that ever so manipulated Commerce Clause thingy....

Glad to see im not the only night owl here....

tombinghamthegreat
01-09-2010, 2:28 AM
So would it be advisable to ignore the federal law since it applies to interstate commerce?


First, I do know that it needs to be unloaded, mag and all.


Just as a future reference but magazines can be loaded, just cannot be placed into a position to be fired from(People vs Clark). I am assuming you meant to say have the tube of the shotgun empty, not mag.

JDay
01-09-2010, 2:50 AM
So would it be advisable to ignore the federal law since it applies to interstate commerce?

No it wouldn't, that bit is just interesting because they had to change the original law to include it to make it constitutional. Doesn't make sense though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

The Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 was enacted as section 1702 of the Crime Control Act of 1990 (Pub.L. 101-647, 18 U.S.C. 922(q)) on November 29, 1990.

It was subsequently declared to be an unconstitutional exercise of Congressional authority under the Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution by the United States Supreme Court, and was therefore voided. This case, United States v. Lopez (1995), was the first time in over half a century that the Supreme Court limited Congressional authority to legislate under the Commerce Clause.

See also United States v. Morrison (2000), in which the U.S. Supreme Court also ruled that Congress lacked the authority to enact such laws even when there was evidence of aggregate effect.

Congress re-enacted the law in the GFSZ Act of 1996, following the Supreme Court's ruling, correcting the technical defects identified by the Court by adding wording placing the burden on the prosecutor to prove an additional element, that the "firearm has moved in or otherwise affects interstate commerce."[1]


Just as a future reference but magazines can be loaded, just cannot be placed into a position to be fired from(People vs Clark). I am assuming you meant to say have the tube of the shotgun empty, not mag.

Some shotguns take magazines, e.g. bolt action Mossberg's.

avdrummerboy
01-09-2010, 9:31 PM
Okay okay magazine tube, excuse me :) :) :)

Ok So a lot of my laws I was confusing handguns and long guns. So basically, as long as it is unloaded as per People v. Clark and out of sight, simply to avoid unnecessary headaches, I'll be good.

ENTHUSIAST
01-10-2010, 5:20 AM
Okay okay magazine tube, excuse me :) :) :)

Ok So a lot of my laws I was confusing handguns and long guns. So basically, as long as it is unloaded as per People v. Clark and out of sight, simply to avoid unnecessary headaches, I'll be good.

Thats the way I understand it yes.

GrizzlyGuy
01-10-2010, 5:50 AM
I thought only handguns needed to be in a locked container in a 1000' school zone...can someone clarify this?

See this FAQ (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Do_I_need_to_transport_a_long_gun_in_my_trunk. 3F). Long guns need to be in a locked container or a locking gun rack when traveling through school zones to comply with the federal GFSZ law (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones#Law). That law applies to firearms in general and here is how it words the exception:

I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is
on a motor vehicle;

Bruce
01-10-2010, 6:12 AM
If I got one of the locking racks that are in police cars installed in my truck, could I legally transport a pump shotgun with rounds in the magazine tube the same way the police do?

SkatinJJ
01-10-2010, 6:16 AM
The real issue in California is PC 626.9, the fed law is nearly not a factor unless you're involved in interstate commerce, or affecting it. It was a stretch to try it, and is rather silly of the feds.

I'm sorry there's so much there. It is a very important read. Print a copy from the WAIS Document Retrieval at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/

There may be easier places to get info, but this works for me.

( I had to shorten this to post it. )


626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in
paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written
permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as
specified in subdivision (f).
(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful.
(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in
accordance with state law.
(3) When the person possessing the firearm reasonably believes
that he or she is in grave danger because of circumstances forming
the basis of a current restraining order issued by a court against
another person or persons who has or have been found to pose a threat
to his or her life or safety. This subdivision may not apply when
the circumstances involve a mutual restraining order issued pursuant
to Division 10 (commencing with Section 6200) of the Family Code
absent a factual finding of a specific threat to the person's life or
safety. Upon a trial for violating subdivision (b), the trier of a
fact shall determine whether the defendant was acting out of a
reasonable belief that he or she was in grave danger.
(4) When the person is exempt from the prohibition against
carrying a concealed firearm pursuant to subdivision (b), (d), (e),
or (h) of Section 12027.
(d) Except as provided in subdivision (b), it shall be unlawful
for any person, with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to
discharge, or attempt to discharge, a firearm in a school zone, as
defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e).
The prohibition contained in this subdivision does not apply to
the discharge of a firearm to the extent that the conditions of
paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) are satisfied.
(e) As used in this section, the following definitions shall
apply:
(1) "School zone" means an area in, or on the grounds of, a public
or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1
to 12, inclusive, or within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds
of the public or private school.
(2) "Firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given in
Section 12001.
(3) "Locked container" has the same meaning as that term is given
in subdivision (c) of Section 12026.1.
(4) "Concealed firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given
in Sections 12025 and 12026.1.
(f) (1) Any person who violates subdivision (b) by possessing a
firearm in, or on the grounds of, a public or private school
providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive,
shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three,
or five years.
(2) Any person who violates subdivision (b) by possessing a
firearm within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public
or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1
to 12, inclusive, shall be punished as follows:
(A) By imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or five
years, if any of the following circumstances apply:
(i) If the person previously has been convicted of any felony, or
of any crime made punishable by Chapter 1 (commencing with Section
12000) of Title 2 of Part 4.
(ii) If the person is within a class of persons prohibited from
possessing or acquiring a firearm pursuant to Section 12021 or
12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and
Institutions Code.
(iii) If the firearm is any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person and the offense is
punished as a felony pursuant to Section 12025.
(B) By imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year or
by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or five years,
in all cases other than those specified in subparagraph (A).
(3) Any person who violates subdivision (d) shall be punished by
imprisonment in the state prison for three, five, or seven years.
(g) (1) Every person convicted under this section for a
misdemeanor violation of subdivision (b) who has been convicted
previously of a misdemeanor offense enumerated in Section 12001.6
shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than
three months, or if probation is granted or if the execution or
imposition of sentence is suspended, it shall be a condition thereof
that he or she be imprisoned in a county jail for not less than three
months.
(2) Every person convicted under this section of a felony
violation of subdivision (b) or (d) who has been convicted previously
of a misdemeanor offense enumerated in Section 12001.6, if probation
is granted or if the execution of sentence is suspended, it shall be
a condition thereof that he or she be imprisoned in a county jail
for not less than three months.
(3) Every person convicted under this section for a felony
violation of subdivision (b) or (d) who has been convicted previously
of any felony, or of any crime made punishable by Chapter 1
(commencing with Section 12000) of Title 2 of Part 4, if probation is
granted or if the execution or imposition of sentence is suspended,
it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be imprisoned in a
county jail for not less than three months.
(4) The court shall apply the three-month minimum sentence
specified in this subdivision, except in unusual cases where the
interests of justice would best be served by granting probation or
suspending the execution or imposition of sentence without the
minimum imprisonment required in this subdivision or by granting
probation or suspending the execution or imposition of sentence with
conditions other than those set forth in this subdivision, in which
case the court shall specify on the record and shall enter on the
minutes the circumstances indicating that the interests of justice
would best be served by this disposition.
(h) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or
possesses a loaded firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or
buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research,
or administration by, a public or private university or college, that
are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it
is with the written permission of the university or college
president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college
authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for
two, three, or four years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a
university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary
entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are
prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.
(i) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or
possesses a firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or buildings
owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research, or
administration by, a public or private university or college, that
are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it
is with the written permission of the university or college
president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college
authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for
one, two, or three years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a
university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary
entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are
prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.
(j) For purposes of this section, a firearm shall be deemed to be
loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of
a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or
attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited
to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the
firearm. A muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it
is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the
barrel or cylinder.
(k) This section does not require that notice be posted regarding
the proscribed conduct.
(l) This section does not apply to a duly appointed peace officer
as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of
Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the
federal government who is carrying out official duties while in
California, any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in
making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually
engaged in assisting the officer, a member of the military forces of
this state or of the United States who is engaged in the performance
of his or her duties, a person holding a valid license to carry the
firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of
Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, or an armored vehicle guard, engaged
in the performance of his or her duties.......

JDay
01-10-2010, 6:52 AM
The real issue in California is PC 626.9, the fed law is nearly not a factor unless you're involved in interstate commerce, or affecting it. It was a stretch to try it, and is rather silly of the feds.


The state courts have already set precedent for state law enforcement not being able to enforce federal law in City of Garden Grove v. Superior Court of Orange County.

On December 1, 2008, the Supreme Court decided not to hear arguments in City of Garden Grove v. Superior Court of Orange County, leaving a lower court ruling standing which requires local police officers to enforce state law, not federal law. The case stems from a traffic stop of Felix Kha, who had 8.1 grams of medical marijuana in a container, which the police officers confiscated. The ruling requires police officers to return the seized medicine.[8]
"But it must be remembered it is not the job of the local police to enforce the federal drug laws as such."

Thats how I interpret this anyway.

Librarian
01-10-2010, 7:01 AM
If I got one of the locking racks that are in police cars installed in my truck, could I legally transport a pump shotgun with rounds in the magazine tube the same way the police do?

No.

For almost all purposes, that's loaded. Loaded in public usually violates PC 12031.

See http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California

tombinghamthegreat
01-10-2010, 2:30 PM
If I got one of the locking racks that are in police cars installed in my truck, could I legally transport a pump shotgun with rounds in the magazine tube the same way the police do?

It would have to be unloaded to be legal.

DedEye
01-10-2010, 5:07 PM
See this FAQ (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Do_I_need_to_transport_a_long_gun_in_my_trunk. 3F). Long guns need to be in a locked container or a locking gun rack when traveling through school zones to comply with the federal GFSZ law (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones#Law). That law applies to firearms in general and here is how it words the exception:

So far as I can see every question in this thread was answered at the FAQ (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Do_I_need_to_transport_a_long_gun_in_my_trunk. 3F) link.