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View Full Version : Please Help! FFL Issues


badseed
01-08-2010, 5:46 PM
UPDATE: After reading this thread, the FFL called me this morning to inform me that he had my lower and since then I have picked it up and everything appears to be in new condition.

I have apparently chosen the worst FFL in the area from whom to transfer a California legal AR lower through. Here is a quick background; I met with the dealer to discuss having the lower shipped to him. He politely acknowledges and sends his FFL information to the company. Two weeks go by and he has not called about my lower being in so I decide to stop in an see. Wow, low and behold my lower had arrived a few days earlier and he never got around to calling me. O.K. no big deal but when I asked to see the lower he shows me a completely different lower. I tell him that is not mine and after explaining why, he began to thumb through his transaction paperwork and realizes that he gave my lower to someone else.:mad::eek:. The dealer explains that he knows the guy and that he will have the lower back in the store before my wait period is over and for my trouble he gives me a box of WOLF ammo:sleeping:.

Today I call him because I was supposed to pick up my lower tomorrow and guess what, he is not available and his employee tells me that the lower is not in the store. Remember, I filled out all of my paperwork 9 days ago, thumb print and all in addition to paying his ridiculous $100 fee (including BG check). The employee says that I will have to talk to the owner on Monday because as far as he can tell they do not have my lower.:mad::mad:

What do I do other than restrain myself from strangling this guy?
What are my rights?
What leverage do I have ATF, DOJ?
Does anyone have any legal requirements that he has failed ot meet as an authorized FFL?

freakshow10mm
01-08-2010, 6:30 PM
ATF won't and can't intervene, so don't bother them.

I would give the dealer 2 choices

Get a replacement lower at his cost and all fees and DROS, etc you have paid are credited. From this point on all expenses are his burden.

Pay you the exact price, shipping, etc you paid for the lower plus reimburse your fees paid.

I understand you are upset. The dealer owned up to the mistake and is trying to correct it. Realize he's also dealing with another customer who will need to bring the lower back in for exchange, etc. That takes time to coordinate. Keep following up.

Cokebottle
01-08-2010, 6:38 PM
Pay you the exact price, shipping, etc you paid for the lower plus reimburse your fees paid.
This.


Then go back to the vendor and buy another lower, but ship it into a dealer that doesn't charge $100 for the transfer.
You aren't very far from Fresno and Sacramento... there's a bunch of BR friendly FFLS in that area that don't charge $100.

badseed
01-08-2010, 7:23 PM
ATF won't and can't intervene, so don't bother them.

I would give the dealer 2 choices

Get a replacement lower at his cost and all fees and DROS, etc you have paid are credited. From this point on all expenses are his burden.

Pay you the exact price, shipping, etc you paid for the lower plus reimburse your fees paid.

I understand you are upset. The dealer owned up to the mistake and is trying to correct it. Realize he's also dealing with another customer who will need to bring the lower back in for exchange, etc. That takes time to coordinate. Keep following up.

Correct me if I am wrong but the way I see it is that the when he processed my paper work he agreed the he had the firearm in his possession to be available to me in 10 days. If he can not produce the firearm upon my return then technically the firearm is to be considered lost/stolen which means that according to ATF's website the FFL is required to report the theft or loss by telephone and in writing to ATF within 48 hours of discovery. There is a significant difference between the complete lower that I ordered from Spikes Tactical and the stripped CMMG lower that he was supposed to give the "current" owner of my lower.

freakshow10mm
01-08-2010, 8:05 PM
No. Lost or stolen according to the ATF is that it was taken and it's whereabouts aren't known. The ATF will say this is a mistake of fact, it's a private matter, take it up with the FFL or file a lawsuit. The ATF can only enforce the NFA and the GCA, none of which cover the accidental (or even malicious) transfer of a firearm to the wrong client.

You are taking the law out of context and trying to put ATF pressure on the FFL to get what you want.

There is no agreement stipulated in the transfer paperwork, at least the 4473. I'm not a CA FFL so I can't speak to the state level papers. The 4473 records the transfer of a firearm to an individual that doesn't have a FFL. If the FFL transferred the wrong firearm to the wrong person, it's not an ATF matter no matter how pissed you are or how you feel. It's a private matter and the ATF will not waste their time on it and will tell you the exact same thing I'm telling you.

halifax
01-08-2010, 8:57 PM
Most certainly, this dealer lacks professionalism, but criminal...I just don't see it and I doubt the authorities will either.

lorax3
01-08-2010, 9:22 PM
Not sure about criminal, but can probably go somewhere in civil court if needed.

Situation sucks, but just keep talking to the owner and get it worked out. Threaten legal action only once all other logical options are exhausted.

tenpercentfirearms
01-08-2010, 10:03 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but the way I see it is that the when he processed my paper work he agreed the he had the firearm in his possession to be available to me in 10 days. If he can not produce the firearm upon my return then technically the firearm is to be considered lost/stolen which means that according to ATF's website the FFL is required to report the theft or loss by telephone and in writing to ATF within 48 hours of discovery. There is a significant difference between the complete lower that I ordered from Spikes Tactical and the stripped CMMG lower that he was supposed to give the "current" owner of my lower.

You are wrong. First, did he agree to have the firearm available in 10 days? Did you get it in writing? What happens when the tenth day falls on a day his shop is closed? Will you turn him in then?

Forget this line of thinking.

The dude seriously screwed up. Give him a little time to fix it and be polite. Clearly once you get this squared away, use another dealer.

My partner sold a guy's Glock out from under him the other day. He was in DROS, she didn't realize another employee had started it and thought he was still paying for it over time. A LEO came in with a letter and she sold it to the LEO. I informed her that Glock was in DROS and she sold it out from under the guy! The replacement will be here on Monday, but his ten days were up today.

Crap happens. I have never sold someone's Spike's Tactical out from under him to a guy that wanted a CMMG. That just sounds crazy.

Give it a little bit of time and just keep brining up what a mess this is. Hopefully they will make it right. Unless you want to put the dealer on edge, I wouldn't go to the extreme of claiming some loss or trying to get government agencies involved. There is no need for that.

kemasa
01-09-2010, 11:41 AM
The FFL messed up, but there is no criminal action. He seems to be careless in tracking things, but the lower is not yours until it is transferred, so it is not stolen or anything else.

It is all a civil matter. You can sue him for all your additional expenses, but don't expect anything for the additional delay unless you can prove that you were harmed by it (not just that you did not like it). You might be able to claim fraud since you mention that you ordered a complete lower and the other was a striped lower, but again, it still would be a civil matter. It seems that the other customer should know that it was the wrong one and the FFL should be more careful in marking what item is for what person.

Hopefully he will correct the problem. There is 30 days from the date that the DROS was submitted until you have to start over again, so hopefully it can be done in that period of time. Personally, I think you should let others know who it is so that they can avoid him, but he did give you something for the mistake, which is better than nothing.

SIGarette
01-09-2010, 12:37 PM
Both the FFL and the guy who picked up your lower sound like complete tools. How could someone in good conscience walk out with a complete lower, regardless of make, when they know that they brought in a stripped lower? What did he think, that the tooth fairy built it up for him while he was waiting 10 days? That guy is a thief, pure and simple.

I agree with many of the suggestions here: keep cool and maintain polite pressure on your FFL to correct the problem. This is the path of least resistance. Any other approach will certainly create hassles that you don't need.

badseed
01-09-2010, 5:51 PM
The FFL messed up, but there is no criminal action. He seems to be careless in tracking things, but the lower is not yours until it is transferred, so it is not stolen or anything else.

It is all a civil matter. You can sue him for all your additional expenses, but don't expect anything for the additional delay unless you can prove that you were harmed by it (not just that you did not like it). You might be able to claim fraud since you mention that you ordered a complete lower and the other was a striped lower, but again, it still would be a civil matter. It seems that the other customer should know that it was the wrong one and the FFL should be more careful in marking what item is for what person.

Hopefully he will correct the problem. There is 30 days from the date that the DROS was submitted until you have to start over again, so hopefully it can be done in that period of time. Personally, I think you should let others know who it is so that they can avoid him, but he did give you something for the mistake, which is better than nothing.

The shop is Bear Mountain Guns in San Andreas, CA and the more people I talk to locally, the more horror stories I hear. The guy has not been in business long maybe 2 years and initially it seemed that he was a decent guy to go to locally. However, stories began to emerge about hack trigger jobs, 9 month waiting periods for a Remington P90, and just poor service. Taking these stories as hear say and personal opinion, I choose to use him to help support my local gun dealer. I assumed that I would have minimized the room for errors by ordering the lower myself, having it shipped and competing my transaction with Spikes rather than the FFL. This way I "should" have just had to pay the for the transfer and BG check. Unfortunately here I am. I will surely post back on Monday after I talk to him.

badseed
01-11-2010, 10:33 AM
Thanks to everyone who offered ideas and support. The FFL contacted me this morning after reading this thread to inform me that he did have my lower.

tenpercentfirearms
01-12-2010, 6:07 AM
See, Calguns FFL Forum for the win! No need to get agencies involved. Just clearly communicate with the FFL and use a little public persuasion. Well done.

TripleT
01-12-2010, 6:42 AM
Thanks to everyone who offered ideas and support. The FFL contacted me this morning after reading this thread to inform me that he did have my lower.

Let us know when you have the OLL in your hands. This guy is just down the road from me and I would like to make sure I have good intel on what the outcome was. :)