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View Full Version : Can you legally turn a 30rd mag into a 100rd mag??


IrishPirate
01-07-2010, 10:59 PM
I've been looking for the answer to this and can't find anything definitive. does anyone know for sure if it's perfectly legal to rebuild your legally owned (pre ban) hi-cap magazines into a magazine that holds a higher capacity. I ask this because it seems like you'd be keeping pretty much only the follower and maybe the floorplate, the rest would be scrapped.

Dr. Peter Venkman
01-07-2010, 11:03 PM
One of the CGF guys has been over this before and essentially CA does not see a difference in an 11 round magazine and a 100 round; they are both high capacity. I believe the end of the discussion was that there was no law against making a pre-ban high capacity magazine having a higher capacity, since CA sees no difference.

nicki
01-08-2010, 2:28 AM
Just curious, what kind of gun were you planning on retro fitting 30 round mags to 100 rd mags for.

The C beta mags have a bad rap for jamming btw

IrishPirate
01-08-2010, 7:17 AM
my kel tec su-16 is featureless so i can run my pre ban 20rd and 30rd AR mags in it but i didn't have any 100rd mags before the ban so i was thinking about sacrificing one of my others to rebuild into a 100rd (or other very hi cap drum/snail stlye mag) but only if it's legit. if it's a grey area......i'll probably just wait.

Sniper3142
01-08-2010, 7:33 AM
The only really issue is whether there is a logical parts path from a 30 round magazine to a 100 round one.

If you can show how you went from a 30 rd mag to a 100 rd one by replacing parts, then you should be fine. The problem however is that at this time, I don't believe there are any parts from a 30 round magazine that work or are used in a 100 round one so there is no logical upgrade or rebuilding path.

Turo
01-08-2010, 7:38 AM
The only really issue is whether there is a logical parts path from a 30 round magazine to a 100 round one.

If you can show how you went from a 30 rd mag to a 100 rd one by replacing parts, then you should be fine. The problem however is that at this time, I don't believe there are any parts from a 30 round magazine that work or are used in a 100 round one so there is no logical upgrade or rebuilding path.

The problem with this idea is that there is no part of the law that says you have to have a logical upgrade or rebuilding path. The burden of proof to say that you illegally manufactured a hi-cap magazine is on the state. As long as you started with a hi-cap AR magazine, and the end result still fits and works in an AR-15, you didn't break any laws.

Dr. Peter was right, CA law does not see the difference between a 30rnd magazine and a 100rnd one.

boxbro
01-08-2010, 9:04 AM
There's some good info here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=203083

Alan Block
01-08-2010, 9:22 AM
No need for bipod.

mej16489
01-08-2010, 9:58 AM
Just curious, what kind of gun were you planning on retro fitting 30 round mags to 100 rd mags for.

The C beta mags have a bad rap for jamming btw


I have a couple AR Beta C Mags. One I occasionally use here in CA on RAWs, the other is out of state and used with an MG. I've never found them to be any more or less reliable then any quality 20 or 30 rounder, even full auto.

IrishPirate
01-08-2010, 10:37 AM
Thanks guys, i think i got what i'm looking for. One thing i didn't know or eventhink about was the statute of limitations for this law. Does anyone know exactly how long that is. i'm just curious. i haven't done anything illegal and dont plan on it, but it's always nice to know that if i may have slipped up X-number of years ago without knowing it, i'm not going to be in trouble for it now. thanks

loather
01-08-2010, 10:41 AM
Thanks guys, i think i got what i'm looking for. One thing i didn't know or eventhink about was the statute of limitations for this law. Does anyone know exactly how long that is.

The statute of limitations on this law is three years.

Sniper3142
01-08-2010, 11:44 AM
The problem with this idea is that there is no part of the law that says you have to have a logical upgrade or rebuilding path. The burden of proof to say that you illegally manufactured a hi-cap magazine is on the state. As long as you started with a hi-cap AR magazine, and the end result still fits and works in an AR-15, you didn't break any laws.

Dr. Peter was right, CA law does not see the difference between a 30rnd magazine and a 100rnd one.


I totally agree with you. I was just posting the "worse case" or devils advocate point of view.

professorhard
01-08-2010, 11:51 AM
I have a couple AR Beta C Mags. One I occasionally use here in CA on RAWs, the other is out of state and used with an MG. I've never found them to be any more or less reliable then any quality 20 or 30 rounder, even full auto.

I have found this to be true as well. I have also used the MWG 90 round drum without any failures.

bwiese
01-08-2010, 11:58 AM
Let's not get too 'way far out there'.

I don't see an issue turning a 20 to 30, or 30 to 40, etc. where mag capacity is the only aspect changed, and caliber & type of weapon are retained, and the mag retains its overall form/style.

I'm not a big fan of PMag conversions either. Why? Bone stock AR mags with fresh springs work well, and it's just one more thing you have to explain.

I do see drama arising if some one turns, say, a 20rd AR mag into a Beta C mag. The magazine is so substantively different ("smell test") that you might have a "you made a new magazine" argument to fight; there are no clarifying regulations, and arguments as to what are 'replacement parts' could ensue.

IrishPirate
01-08-2010, 2:46 PM
Let's not get too 'way far out there'.

I do see drama arising if some one turns, say, a 20rd AR mag into a Beta C mag. The magazine is so substantively different ("smell test") that you might have a "you made a new magazine" argument to fight; there are no clarifying regulations, and arguments as to what are 'replacement parts' could ensue.

see that's where i'm concearned also.....there's very little that is the same about a GI 20 mag and a Beta C mag....the only thing i can think of is the follower. So you would need to buy 99% of the beta c mag and just add the follower from your other mag (which you obviously couldn't use anymore, i get that).....that to me does seem like manufacturing a new mag since it's all new parts and only one original part, and none of the other parts could have been used in rebuilding the mag to a working 20rd. but i can see that since i didn't add another hi-cap to my collection, i'm not gaining anything but capacity. no extra magazines, just one that holds more. started with X, ended with X...that fits the rebuilding part of the law.

I also get that the definition of hi-cap to the state is just +10 rounds so if it were 11, it might as well be 11,000 in the eyes of the law. but as far as manufacturing goes, i think this one is a little too close for my comfort. i'd like to see something definite before i try to "rebuild" anything into a higher capacity. hell, i should just be glad i can finally use all those pre-ban 20's and 30's i bought and had to let sit in the garage for so many years!!!! i think they deserve more attention before i decide to go all frankenstein on one of them. :D

grammaton76
01-08-2010, 2:53 PM
I still want to get ahold of the parts of a Beta-C mag just so that I can confirm via photos whether or not the "follower" would work in a 30rd USGI mag body. I have a hunch that it would, although it certainly wouldn't hold 30 rounds anymore (probably more like 20). Provided that this would work, you would indeed have a legal path to a rebuild, although it's definitely for those who feel like flying on the edge.

One of those intellectual exercises that would be useful to prove it's possible, but I wouldn't really want to actually try using it to explain to an LEO.

IrishPirate
01-11-2010, 12:50 PM
yeah, i agree it doesn't do any good to be legal if it's not possible to do. It would be nice to know that it's possible, but it's still something I'd only want to use in a place i'd know was safe until the law is repealed.

Ajaxx
01-11-2010, 6:21 PM
How about starting with a 100 round NON decisigrading link belt for MG53? & clipping some 1919a4 link's on winding up with a decisigrading link belt for you 1919?

seanbo
01-11-2010, 6:38 PM
Or, how about adding 5 feet on the end of a Marlin 60 for a 100 round tube?

the_natterjack
01-11-2010, 7:29 PM
Or, how about adding 5 feet on the end of a Marlin 60 for a 100 round tube?

LOL:p

Ok, seriously, how about you take the base plate off a magazine and add an adapter that feeds shells up through the bottom of the mag body. ?

Brian

diginit
01-11-2010, 8:05 PM
The statute of limitations on this law is three years.

So what you're saying is that if someone bought illegal Hi Cap mags and kept the reciepts, Then buried them for 3 years of the purchase date, The mags would then be legal? Or should I say void of presecution?

IrishPirate
01-11-2010, 9:25 PM
So what you're saying is that if someone bought illegal Hi Cap mags and kept the reciepts, Then buried them for 3 years of the purchase date, The mags would then be legal? Or should I say void of presecution?

You would be immune from prosecution, yes......however, it's still illegal so it's not a good idea. (and neither is keeping the receipts in case they find them before the statute of limitations is up) BUrden of proof is on the State so they would have to prove that you bought them and brought them into the State within 3 years.....impossible to do since there are no serial numbers on the mags to identify them from any ones you might have legally purchased pre ban. (and now the disclaimer) BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU SHOULD GO TO NEVADA AND PICK THEM UP FOR $10-$15 A PIECE AND SKIRT THE LAW JUST CUZ THEY CAN'T ACTUALLY ENFORCE IT!!!!!..........................

Dr. Peter Venkman
01-11-2010, 9:35 PM
So what you're saying is that if someone bought illegal Hi Cap mags and kept the reciepts, Then buried them for 3 years of the purchase date, The mags would then be legal? Or should I say void of presecution?

It has never been clarified here when I've asked a similar question. If the statute of limitations starts at the time of the offense (bringing a high capacity mag into the state) then theoretically you can get away with it by burying it for three years. If the state of limitations doesn't start until discovery of the offense, that's a whole different ballgame.

JDay
01-12-2010, 12:19 AM
It has never been clarified here when I've asked a similar question. If the statute of limitations starts at the time of the offense (bringing a high capacity mag into the state) then theoretically you can get away with it by burying it for three years. If the state of limitations doesn't start until discovery of the offense, that's a whole different ballgame.

Its from the date of the crime. Once the statute runs out you cannot be charged. Once you get charged the timer stops.

Dr. Peter Venkman
01-12-2010, 4:01 AM
Its from the date of the crime. Once the statute runs out you cannot be charged. Once you get charged the timer stops.

Can you please cite the law for that, please?. I'd like to see it as a proper reference.

IrishPirate
01-12-2010, 12:46 PM
Google statute of limitations. It's good for just about every law, and each one is different. Some are 1 year, some are 3 years, some are 25 years, some (like murder) have no statute of limitations. but yes, it starts from the second the crime was committed, and they have X amount of time to charge you. If you are charged 2 years and 364 days from date you bought the hi-caps and illegally assembled or brought them into the state, you're screwed. It doesn't matter how long it takes to actually prosecute you, you just need to be formally charged before the SOL is up. (ironic how it looks as an abbreviation isn't it?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations

Dr. Peter Venkman
01-12-2010, 6:07 PM
Google statute of limitations. It's good for just about every law, and each one is different. Some are 1 year, some are 3 years, some are 25 years, some (like murder) have no statute of limitations. but yes, it starts from the second the crime was committed, and they have X amount of time to charge you. If you are charged 2 years and 364 days from date you bought the hi-caps and illegally assembled or brought them into the state, you're screwed. It doesn't matter how long it takes to actually prosecute you, you just need to be formally charged before the SOL is up. (ironic how it looks as an abbreviation isn't it?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_limitations

I know what statute of limitations is; that should be quite clear from reading my previous posts. I am asking if the timer starts ticking at the time of the offense or when it discovered that there was an offense, and regardless of what it comes down to, the law citing that point.

IrishPirate
01-12-2010, 6:38 PM
It's not a specific law it's a legal term. Each offense has it's own SOL and if you check the definition......it starts from the time the crime was committed. That should be quite clear from EVERYONE ELSE'S previous posts....and just a little research.

wildhawker
01-12-2010, 7:01 PM
It's not a specific law it's a legal term. Each offense has it's own SOL and if you check the definition......it starts from the time the crime was committed. That should be quite clear from EVERYONE ELSE'S previous posts....and just a little research.

Let's knock off the attitude, shall we?

NiteQwill
01-12-2010, 7:46 PM
Isn't there jury instructions regarding prosecution floating around somewhere?

Sinixstar
01-12-2010, 10:16 PM
The thing that sticks out in my mind - where it becomes a bit of a gray area - is that as someone mentioned - there is no real path to get from a 30rounder to a 100 rounder. Now - that may not mean anything on one hand - but on the other hand it raises the question of - are you rebuilding an existing magazine, or are you producing an entirely NEW magazine using SOME of the parts from your existing hi-cap mag?

That's where it gets tricky. To me, it sounds like you're talking about producing a new magazine, for a gun in which you happened to have a legal hi-cap mag. My understanding is - if you have a hicap mag that wears out, and you want to replace some parts in it - you're good. Just because you have one legal hi-cap mag though, doesn't mean you can turn around and make new ones for the gun it fits to. I would assume (i could easily be wrong) that you're not covered just because you're using some parts from your old 30rnd mag.

You said yourself :

I ask this because it seems like you'd be keeping pretty much only the follower and maybe the floorplate, the rest would be scrapped.


That doesn't sound like rebuilding/repairing - that' producing an entirely new magazine.

Dr. Peter Venkman
01-13-2010, 12:29 AM
It's not a specific law it's a legal term. Each offense has it's own SOL and if you check the definition......it starts from the time the crime was committed. That should be quite clear from EVERYONE ELSE'S previous posts....and just a little research.

There is no "set" definition of statute of limitations; it varies by the crime just as much as it varies whether it is at the point of discovery or the date the crime occured. I've read 801 PC and the consideration of "importing/constructing" high capacity magazine to be a felony/misdemeanor wobbler. That gives a three year statute of limitation from the date of offense, however I do not know if there is case law that makes a distinction beyond what the penal code states. I've asked you to point out where coming into possession of a high capacity magazine falls under this and you have yet to cite me either a penal code or a case law, specifically in regards to whether the statute of limitations begins at discovery or at the date of crime of importing a high capacity magazine at the date of the ban. It is NOT clear where your justification for your position is from "just a little research" and you have yet to show me yours beyond some elementary Wikipedia article. The case specifically discussing 12020 PC from the Calguns wiki article (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Large-capacity_magazine_restrictions) leads to a 404. Equally so, it's hard to hear you from your high horse.

GrizzlyGuy
01-13-2010, 6:06 AM
I know what statute of limitations is; that should be quite clear from reading my previous posts. I am asking if the timer starts ticking at the time of the offense or when it discovered that there was an offense, and regardless of what it comes down to, the law citing that point.

The timer begins when the offense was committed, not when it was discovered. From 801 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/801.html):

Except as provided in Sections 799 and 800, prosecution for an
offense punishable by imprisonment in the state prison shall be
commenced within three years after commission of the offense.

That is applicable because magazine-related offenses are punishable by time in the state prison per 12020(a) (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12020.html):

(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:

804 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/804.html) defines the other end of the time range (what 'commence prosecution' means).

Sniper3142
01-13-2010, 7:09 AM
The thing that sticks out in my mind - where it becomes a bit of a gray area - is that as someone mentioned - there is no real path to get from a 30rounder to a 100 rounder. Now - that may not mean anything on one hand - but on the other hand it raises the question of - are you rebuilding an existing magazine, or are you producing an entirely NEW magazine using SOME of the parts from your existing hi-cap mag?

That's where it gets tricky. To me, it sounds like you're talking about producing a new magazine, for a gun in which you happened to have a legal hi-cap mag. My understanding is - if you have a hicap mag that wears out, and you want to replace some parts in it - you're good. Just because you have one legal hi-cap mag though, doesn't mean you can turn around and make new ones for the gun it fits to. I would assume (i could easily be wrong) that you're not covered just because you're using some parts from your old 30rnd mag.

That doesn't sound like rebuilding/repairing - that' producing an entirely new magazine.


As long as ONE PART of your existing Large Capacity is able to be used in the REBUILT magazine, you are good to go.

For example, I can purchase a PMag repair kit and replace EVERY SINGLE PART of my existing 30 rounder with the parts from the PMag. There is NO LEGAL requirement to keep specific parts (or any part) of your old magazine in the rebuilt one.

IrishPirate
01-13-2010, 12:48 PM
There is no "set" definition of statute of limitations; it varies by the crime just as much as it varies whether it is at the point of discovery or the date the crime occured. I've read 801 PC and the consideration of "importing/constructing" high capacity magazine to be a felony/misdemeanor wobbler. That gives a three year statute of limitation from the date of offense, however I do not know if there is case law that makes a distinction beyond what the penal code states. I've asked you to point out where coming into possession of a high capacity magazine falls under this and you have yet to cite me either a penal code or a case law, specifically in regards to whether the statute of limitations begins at discovery or at the date of crime of importing a high capacity magazine at the date of the ban. It is NOT clear where your justification for your position is from "just a little research" and you have yet to show me yours beyond some elementary Wikipedia article. The case specifically discussing 12020 PC from the Calguns wiki article (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Large-capacity_magazine_restrictions) leads to a 404. Equally so, it's hard to hear you from your high horse.

ok...I'm not trying to be a dick, but you seem to be the only person I've ever met who doesn't understand how statute of limitations works. Other people tried to help you too and you still weren't happy with perfectly good definitions and examples and wanted your exact question answered your way. well, i'm sorry if my pointing out how selfish and rude that seems comes accross as rude. The following reasearch took me less than 5 minutes to find. Maybe next time before you try telling people their efforts to help you understand something aren't good enough, you can put that much time in also. Otherwise, i think you'll find that people don't want to help someone who isn't going to help themselves.

Here is a link to California Penal Code 799-805 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=4151178548+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve). In there you'll find PC 801 which states:

"801. Except as provided in Sections 799 and 800, prosecution for an
offense punishable by imprisonment in the state prison shall be
commenced within three years after commission of the offense."

For your reference so you don't get confused, here's 799 and 800 also:

"799. Prosecution for an offense punishable by death or by
imprisonment in the state prison for life or for life without the
possibility of parole, or for the embezzlement of public money, may
be commenced at any time.
This section shall apply in any case in which the defendant was a
minor at the time of the commission of the offense and the
prosecuting attorney could have petitioned the court for a fitness
hearing pursuant to Section 707 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.

800. Except as provided in Section 799, prosecution for an offense
punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for eight years or
more shall be commenced within six years after commission of the
offense."

You don't get 8 years for importing or manufacturing Hi-caps as stated in 12020 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=41574711533+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve):

"12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine."

So now it should be obvious that section 801 is the section that applies to the Statute of Limitations about offenses reguarding hi-cap mags because it's an offense punishable by time in a state prison and the term is less than 8 years.

As for finding hi-caps, you can't keep them because they didn't belong to you before the ban. Once the ban went into effect you were stuck with whatever number of hi-caps you had at that time. You can't add any more to your collection legally.

What it seems like you're asking for is a very specific law that states exactly when you can no longer be charged for offenses related to hi-cap mags.....well, all you're going to find about statute of limitations is the "level of crime" (which i agree can be a little confusing at first) and the time frame for prosecution governing it. However, It's clear in 801 and 12020 what the "level of crime" is for hi-cap related offenses. Like it says in the definition i posted before:

"Common law legal system might have a statute, for example, limiting the time for prosecution of crimes designated as misdemeanors to two years after the offense occurred.........A crime (in the case of a criminal prosecution) or a cause of action (in a civil lawsuit) is said to have accrued when the event beginning its time limitation occurs." I know it's just elementary wikipedia stuff, but in laymans, that means the clock starts when the crime is committed.

Here are some more definitions that may help to clear up the "now or later" confusion:

Definitions of statute of limitations on the Web (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&defl=en&q=define:statute+of+limitations&ei=zjJOS7LgGoeqtgPn9vD7Bw&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAsQkAE):

a statute prescribing the time period during which legal action can be taken

A statute of limitations is a statute in a common law legal system that sets forth the maximum period of time, after certain events, that legal proceedings based on those events may be initiated. ...

Any law that sets a time limit, after which a person may not be tried for a crime, or after which some other legal action may not take place

That law pertaining to the period of time within which certain actions must be brought to court.

Laws enacted by every state which govern the time frame when a lawsuit must be filed, and beyond which the claim can no longer be made. Statutes of limitation differ from state to state and according to the nature of the claim. In Washington, the limitation. ...

[222] A statute prescribing limitations to the right of action on certain described causes of action, declaring that no suit shall be maintained on such causes of action unless brought within a specific period of time after the right accrued. ...

means the time frame within which an FLSA pay claim must be filed, starting from the date the right accrued. All FLSA pay claims filed on or after June 30, 1994, are subject to a 2-year statute of limitations, except in cases of willful violation where the statute of limitations is 3 years.

A law that sets the time within which parties must take action to enforce their rights.

The time prescribed by statute in which a plaintiff can bring a lawsuit.

A statutory requirement establishing the period of time in which a lawsuit must be filed.

(Limitations of Action) -- Deadlines set by statute for filing criminal charges or civil lawsuits within a certain time after events occur that are the source of the charge or claim. The time limit on the right to seek relief in court.

A statute which limits the right of a plaintiff to file an action unless it is done within a specified time period after the occurrence which gives rise to the right to sue.

The normal FLSA statute of limitations entitles employees to recover back wages beginning two years before a complaint is filed and extending forward until the case is resolved. ...

A statute that imposes time limits upon the right to sue in certain cases.

Like i said, i wasn't trying to be a dick before, but i thought your ignorance of the help you were getting from myself and others was offensive. Sorry if you can't hear me from my high horse, I guess I'll have to get a taller one to reach your level next time.
Additionally, you might want to actually read the calguns wiki article you tried to slam me with...it doesn't lead to 404 at all, in fact, it breaks down the statute of limitations to 3 years like i just did. (i also find it hilarious that you dissed my wikipedia article as elementary and then threw out a wikipedia page to counter it.....hillarious!!)

longarmshortlegs
01-13-2010, 1:04 PM
So when does it becoming "manufacturing" and how much "change" to the original 30rd. magazine is "too much change"? (when does it become a new/entirely different magazine?) It seems like a lot of change if you are only keeping the follower and floor plate. I don't know the answer to your question though, just speculation.

DedEye
01-13-2010, 1:32 PM
So when does it becoming "manufacturing" and how much "change" to the original 30rd. magazine is "too much change"? (when does it become a new/entirely different magazine?) It seems like a lot of change if you are only keeping the follower and floor plate. I don't know the answer to your question though, just speculation.

This question is so frequently asked it even appears in the FAQ. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Repair_and_Rebuild)

Irish, Venkman knows the penal code section you quoted. He referenced it himself 5-10 posts above yours. That wasn't his question.

Venkman asked if there was additional case law that was relevant to the start/end of the statute of limitations.

Quoting Wikipedia doesn't answer that question.

grammaton76
01-13-2010, 1:47 PM
Hmm. 9 counts of something that's punishable by 1 year, if sentenced fully for each... wouldn't that be 9 years of potential prison time, if sentences were served consecutively?

And if so, would that not escalate it beyond that 8-year barrier, and thus place it in the 6-year statute of limitations territory?

IrishPirate
01-13-2010, 3:29 PM
This question is so frequently asked it even appears in the FAQ. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Repair_and_Rebuild)

Irish, Venkman knows the penal code section you quoted. He referenced it himself 5-10 posts above yours. That wasn't his question.

Venkman asked if there was additional case law that was relevant to the start/end of the statute of limitations.

Quoting Wikipedia doesn't answer that question.

actually he's asking this:

I know what statute of limitations is; that should be quite clear from reading my previous posts. I am asking if the timer starts ticking at the time of the offense or when it discovered that there was an offense, and regardless of what it comes down to, the law citing that point.

and it should be fairly obvious from mine and everyone else's posts that it starts from the second the crime is committed. The proof is in the definition which has been provided several times (wikipedia and others), and in the penal code which has also been provided. all correlations have been drawn, the point is obvious, no need to pull a docket number to prove the point.

:beatdeadhorse5:

SteveH
01-13-2010, 4:14 PM
If you can turn a 30 round USGI M16 Mag into a 45 round Nordic/PMAG why cant you turn a 30round USA brand Mini-30 mag into a 12 Round Springfield XD45 mag?

None of them share a single common part.

DedEye
01-13-2010, 9:36 PM
actually he's asking this: [Quotes some older post that Venkman then clarified with a subsequent post]

O RLY?

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~jskong/orly.gif

There is no "set" definition of statute of limitations; it varies by the crime just as much as it varies whether it is at the point of discovery or the date the crime occured. I've read 801 PC and the consideration of "importing/constructing" high capacity magazine to be a felony/misdemeanor wobbler. That gives a three year statute of limitation from the date of offense, however I do not know if there is case law that makes a distinction beyond what the penal code states.

Your reading comprehension sucks as bad as your legal advice, Irish.

If you can turn a 30 round USGI M16 Mag into a 45 round Nordic/PMAG why cant you turn a 30round USA brand Mini-30 mag into a 12 Round Springfield XD45 mag?

None of them share a single common part.

You're so wrong it hurts my head (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_use_parts_from_new_magazines_that_didn.2 7t_exist_before_2000_to_repair_and_rebuild_my_old_ magazines.3F).

If you're too lazy to click the link, I'll give you a hint: The spring is interchangeable.

SteveH
01-13-2010, 9:45 PM
If you're too lazy to click the link, I'll give you a hint: The spring is interchangeable.

A used 30-round USHGI spring will not be reliable in a 45round PMAG/Nordic conversion. you need a longer spring or something like a wolf XP spring for reliable function with the 45round conversion.

DedEye
01-13-2010, 9:49 PM
A used 30-round USHGI spring will not be reliable in a 45round PMAG/Nordic conversion. you need a longer spring or something like a wolf XP spring for reliable function with the 45round conversion.

I apologize, I misunderstood what you were asking and am unfamiliar with the Nordic/PMAG.

The path to legality for converting a USGI magazine into a Nordic/PMAG is as follows:

Rebuild standard 30 round PMAG using old USGI spring.
Discard old spring at your discretion and replace with USGI spring.
Use PMAG floorplate on new Nordic/PMAG.

DedEye
01-13-2010, 9:53 PM
I fully approve of Wildhawker's addition to my post. It illustrates my astonishment perfectly.

Dr. Peter Venkman
01-14-2010, 2:18 AM
This question is so frequently asked it even appears in the FAQ. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Repair_and_Rebuild)

Irish, Venkman knows the penal code section you quoted. He referenced it himself 5-10 posts above yours. That wasn't his question.

Venkman asked if there was additional case law that was relevant to the start/end of the statute of limitations.

Quoting Wikipedia doesn't answer that question.

Thank you.

IrishPirate
01-15-2010, 1:41 PM
wow deadeye, got a little sexual frustration pent up or something buddy? Well since this has gotten completely off topic I'll just go ahead and end it saying that if you guys really need case law to understand statute of limitations....i don't think I'm the one with reading comprehension problems. But I'm glad you feel like a big man for your clever posts on the internet. Good for you.

Venkman,
It's confusing that you first said you're not sure what the SOL is, then you said you know it, but that you don't know when it starts. then you said you know when it starts, but don't know if there is case law backing it up. Sorry, but it's hard to answer someone's questions when they keep changing what they are asking and claiming they already knew what you said and that wasn't the question. To prove my point, here's all your posts on the topic (deadeye i hope you're paying attention):

It has never been clarified here when I've asked a similar question. If the statute of limitations starts at the time of the offense (bringing a high capacity mag into the state) then theoretically you can get away with it by burying it for three years. If the state of limitations doesn't start until discovery of the offense, that's a whole different ballgame.
Can you please cite the law for that, please?. I'd like to see it as a proper reference.

I know what statute of limitations is; that should be quite clear from reading my previous posts (yeah this doesn't sound rude at all.... and wait, actually no it's not clear from your previous post! look, they're right there^). I am asking if the timer starts ticking at the time of the offense or when it discovered that there was an offense, and regardless of what it comes down to, the law citing that point.

There is no "set" definition of statute of limitations; it varies by the crime just as much as it varies whether it is at the point of discovery or the date the crime occured. I've read 801 PC and the consideration of "importing/constructing" high capacity magazine to be a felony/misdemeanor wobbler. That gives a three year statute of limitation from the date of offense, however I do not know if there is case law that makes a distinction beyond what the penal code states. I've asked you to point out where coming into possession of a high capacity magazine falls under this and you have yet to cite me either a penal code or a case law, specifically in regards to whether the statute of limitations begins at discovery or at the date of crime of importing a high capacity magazine at the date of the ban. It is NOT clear where your justification for your position is from "just a little research" and you have yet to show me yours beyond some elementary Wikipedia article. The case specifically discussing 12020 PC from the Calguns wiki article (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Large-capacity_magazine_restrictions) leads to a 404. Equally so, it's hard to hear you from your high horse.

You're question was, when does it start. a few people provided the answer, and you wanted more proof. You got your proof, but then you didn't believe it and wanted more and changed what you said your question was. Sorry, you asked one thing, and it was when does the clock start ticking. you can't say we're wrong if you changed your mind and didn't tell anyone. You failed to provide any proof that what anyone else was saying was false and you quoted a wiki article that actually answered your question perfectly and said that it leads elsewhere. The only reason that it's a "wobbler" is because you can commit the crime while violating state law, federal law, or both, so it's unclear if the offense is a felony or misdemeanor and the details of the case would dictate the answer to that question.

Every case that has ever been tried has been tried within the statute of limitations as I'm sure you are aware. Many cases have been thrown out because they were tried after the SOL also, but It's increadibly hard to find evidence of those cases online since the were thrown out and are probably only sitting in a filing cabinet somewhere. case in point from my own personal experience: my wife won a personal injury lawsuit that would force an insurance company to pay us $7500, they had 30 days to file an appeal. they filed on day 32. When we went to court our lawyer simply stated they were out of their SOL for appeal and the judge threw the case out and we collected our money.

Apparently I'm wrong, but when you asked for case law I was assuming you meant the decisions that have been handed down by a court as to the meaning and or the time frame of SOL as it pertains to our mag-rebuild discussion. The only thing i can think to say (which I think I've already said) is that the penal code would be exactly what the court references when deciding whether or not the case is within the SOL since the penal code sets a very specific time frame for the SOL of the crime in question. If so, they proceed, if not, they throw it out. I'm sure you probably understand that, but I don't think you're drawing the conclusion that SOL isn't something that is debatable in court, it's a set, legal definition and therefore IT IS THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION. It either is or isn't within the SOL and the courts just look at the time frame and then continue or they don't.

Perhaps I don't understand what you're looking for, or perhaps what you're looking for doesn't exists and that's why you're not getting your answer. Either way, I'm through trying to help and only getting grief for it. I really wasn't trying to be a dick and I'm sorry if I came off that way, but honestly, this is a super simple concept to understand so repetition of answers is kinda the only way to really make the point. Again, sorry if you're still lost, but I've said all i can say about it. Good luck to you.

Deadeye, this is for you buddy: :chillpill:

383green
01-15-2010, 2:36 PM
wow deadeye, got a little sexual frustration pent up or something buddy?

This comment is neither appropriate nor helpful.



Well since this has gotten completely off topic I'll just go ahead and end it saying that if you guys really need case law to understand statute of limitations....i don't think I'm the one with reading comprehension problems.

Asking whether case law modifies the statue is entirely appropriate. For example, you need to know something about case law to know that the Harrott v. County of Kings ruling modifies the affect and applicability of PC12276(e), or that the People v. Clark ruling modifies the definition of what constitutes a loaded firearm. Simply repeating PC snippets doesn't always provide a complete and correct answer.

Note: I mentioned those case names from memory, and I'm not a lawyer, so I apologize in advance if I misquoted them.

Celicaslave
06-30-2010, 7:45 PM
I've been looking for the answer to this and can't find anything definitive. does anyone know for sure if it's perfectly legal to rebuild your legally owned (pre ban) hi-cap magazines into a magazine that holds a higher capacity. I ask this because it seems like you'd be keeping pretty much only the follower and maybe the floorplate, the rest would be scrapped.

I'm no expert on California gun laws (really, who is?), but from my perspective (and probably the guy in the black robe with the gavel in his hand), that would constitute a new manufacture of a high capacity magazine.

lorax3
06-30-2010, 7:57 PM
I'm no expert on California gun laws (really, who is?), but from my perspective (and probably the guy in the black robe with the gavel in his hand), that would constitute a new manufacture of a high capacity magazine.

1. Necropost

2. It would not constitute the manufacture of a new large-capcity magazine. If the magazine is already a legally owned large-capacity magazine it has already crossed the legal boundary of being 'large-capacity'. Adding more capacity would not legally change the state of the magazine, it would remain a large-capacity magazine.

There is no upper bound or such legal item as a larger-large-capacity magazine.