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NorcalGSG
01-07-2010, 8:04 PM
So after searching and not finding exactly what I'm thinking of, here's the question (sorry since its probably already been asked anyways):

CA CCW does not provide for CCW carry in a bar- a real bar, not just a restaurant which serves alcohol. What is the legal situation for:
1. Not consuming any alcohol
2. Carrying concealed, unloaded & in a locked container(pistol rug, for example) in a bar.

Obviously not an ideal situation, but for discussion purposes, just curious. I am thinking this falls along the lines of the ULCC (unloaded, locked concealed carry) discussions, such as the briefcase with dial lock/ day planner carry discussion. Mainly because a CA CCW has no validity in a bar, this would be the same as a non-CCW person deciding to hypothetically ULCC in a public place/business. Thanks in advance

SDI
01-07-2010, 8:53 PM
It is not illegal to carry in a bar. I realize that you sign a paper that says you won't carry in a bar, but that does not make it illegal. If found out I am sure you could lose your CCW though.

This question always gets a funny look when you ask a LEO about it, they just look at you funny, as if to say why wouldn't you carry there if you have a permit.

ke6guj
01-07-2010, 9:03 PM
IIRC, unless the issuing authority specifically adds a "no bars" restriction on the back of the actual permit, that a CA CCW IS valid in a bar or other alcohol serving establishment.

NorcalGSG
01-08-2010, 10:24 AM
Interesting because I always thought that bars were off limits in CA. I need to brush up on that. Its confusing because in many other "shall-issue" states with reciprocity for say a Utah permit, bars are off limits for CCW even with a permit.

mej16489
01-08-2010, 10:50 AM
Interesting because I always thought that bars were off limits in CA. I need to brush up on that. Its confusing because in many other "shall-issue" states with reciprocity for say a Utah permit, bars are off limits for CCW even with a permit.

Yup, unfortunately its a quite common restriction in other state. Many are in the process, or have recently like AZ, had these statutes removed by their legislators.

For CA CCW, as has already been mentioned, not illegal unless its actually printed on the license. However, it could end up with you getting your permit pulled by the issuing authority.

ke6guj
01-08-2010, 10:56 AM
it has been mentioned in the past that CA's CCW laws are pretty good, once you have one. Since they aren't common, the legislature hasn't felt the need to put all the limitations that other states have done.

paul0660
01-08-2010, 10:56 AM
Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site
consumption.

Is what the application says.

ke6guj
01-08-2010, 10:59 AM
Is what the application says.there are "rules" on the application that aren't backed up by state law.

There is no PC that says that a CCW is invalid in a bar. Now, if they printed that restriction on the back of the CCW, then it would be invalid while in a bar.

paul0660
01-08-2010, 11:03 AM
I know, I know.

Doheny
01-08-2010, 11:09 AM
CA CCW does not provide for CCW carry in a bar- a real bar, not just a restaurant which serves alcohol. What is the legal situation for:
1. Not consuming any alcohol
2. Carrying concealed, unloaded & in a locked container(pistol rug, for example) in a bar.

Actually, CCW in bars in addressed; it's on page 6 of the standard application. It says:


While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license, the licensee
shall not, when carrying a concealed weapon:
Consume any alcoholic beverage.
Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption.


Some folks say that the above language is non-binding, but if you're found in violation your permit will no doubt be pulled and you'll have little if any recourse.

Standard app: http://suttersheriff.org/docs/CCW_App.pdf

Librarian
01-08-2010, 11:27 AM
Some folks say that the above language is non-binding, but if you're found in violation your permit will no doubt be pulled and you'll have little if any recourse.

Standard app: http://suttersheriff.org/docs/CCW_App.pdf


There's a difference between "It's illegal" and "the Sheriff will pull your license".

As I've said before, lots of things that are wise - following the restrictions on the CCW app, practicing a lot with your carry weapon, keeping your guns in a safe when not otherwise under your control - don't rise to the level of crimes if you fail to do them.

ke6guj
01-08-2010, 11:30 AM
Some folks say that the above language is non-binding, but if you're found in violation your permit will no doubt be pulled and you'll have little if any recourse.

Standard app: http://suttersheriff.org/docs/CCW_App.pdf



right, nothing prevents the issuing authority from pulling your permit, but if you are found in a bar, what crime would they charge you with if your permit was still valid at that point. Since the prohibition is not printed on the back of the permit, the permit is valid at that point.

Now, if they want to try to retroactively pull the permit, perhaps to the moment that the person entered the bar, then that would have to be decided in court I'd imagine.

NorcalGSG
01-08-2010, 11:31 AM
Thanks so much everyone for the help.
Doheny- that was my understanding. I appreciate the clarification of the legalese, but I remember the CCW application statement about a bar. This is why I was wondering about the unloaded locked container posession thing, as opposed to the loaded concealed carry which I know is basically not a real good idea in my opinion.
In this origional post situation, does this basically become the same as a person who is unloaded, locked concealed carry-ing in a public place or store? I hope this makes sense, if not, I will try to clarify better. The idea behind this is that, if a person is legally walking about town, CCW all day no problem. Then their party wishes to stop in a bar for a few, while the CCW person is of course not partaking, what is that person theoretically supposed to do?? No car to leave it in, no other options except to just not carry all day for that one location? Oh and leaving the iron with the bartender like in the movies is NOT an option!!!:)

Doheny
01-08-2010, 1:00 PM
right, nothing prevents the issuing authority from pulling your permit, but if you are found in a bar, what crime would they charge you with if your permit was still valid at that point. Since the prohibition is not printed on the back of the permit, the permit is valid at that point.

Now, if they want to try to retroactively pull the permit, perhaps to the moment that the person entered the bar, then that would have to be decided in court I'd imagine.

Since we live in a may issue state, they don't need a crime to pull your permit. However, I doubt that any CLEO would allow you to continue to carry if somehow a report was generated showing you were carrying in a bar, even though you knew you were not supposed to be and said report was forwarded to your issuing agency.

Remember, since we're may issue, the CLEO doesn't need a reason to pull your permit. Permits can be pulled at any time for any reason. Look at the folks in Orange County who got theirs pulled when a new sheriff was appointed.

Best not to test the system is you want to keep your permit.

Librarian
01-08-2010, 1:06 PM
Remember, since we're may issue, the CLEO doesn't need a reason to pull your permit. Permits can be pulled at any time for any reason. Look at the folks in Orange County who got theirs pulled when a new sheriff was appointed.

As a practical matter, the OC example suggests That's The Way It Is.

But IMHO there's no legal basis for what the OC Sheriff did, absent misconduct by the CCW holders. (RomanDad, you out there?)

OTOH, 'may issue' covers a refusal to re-issue for any reason or no reason.

mswanson223
01-08-2010, 3:13 PM
Personally I think Its a good thing that you are not allowed to carry in a bar if you are consuming alcohol. Booze makes people do strange things and go home with even stranger one's. :rofl2:

Cokebottle
01-08-2010, 3:27 PM
I am assuming that when carrying out of state, the carrier would be bound both by restrictions on their own permit, in addition to any restrictions that are state law, such as the Texas prohibition against carrying in bars?

CCWUSA
01-11-2010, 8:48 PM
Okay,

Here' my understanding as explained to me by a local Attorney, the Sheriff's Licensing Division, and the CA Attorney General.

While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license, the licensee
shall not, when carrying a concealed weapon:
• Consume any alcoholic beverage.
• Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site
consumption.
• Be under the influence of any medication or drug, whether prescribed or not.
• Refuse to show the license or surrender the concealed weapon to any peace officer upon
demand.
• Impede any peace officer in the performance of his/her duties.
• Present himself/herself as a peace officer to any person unless he/she is, in fact, a peace
officer as defined by California law.
• Unjustifiably display a concealed weapon.
• Carry a concealed weapon not listed on the permit.
• Carry a concealed weapon at times or circumstances other than those specified in the permit.

Here's the kicker....

Any violation of these restrictions or conditions may invalidate the CCW license and may void any further use of the license until reinstated by the licensing authority. Any arrest for a felony or serious misdemeanor, including driving under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs, is cause for invalidating the license.

Bottom line is, several years ago, when CA DOJ Agents raided a local bar looking for illegal weapons-they arrested a local Attorney that had a CCW Permit, and was in the bar, not drinking. DOJ stated that his CCW was INVALID because he had violated the conditions of the license, by Carrying in the bar. So they charged him with carrying a loaded firearm in a public place, without a permit. I was not able to follow up and see what happened with this case, but he is an attorney, so I'm sure he had access to the legal system. My recommendation is to comply with the law. There are several exemptions per our local Sheriff where my CCW Students are allowed to carry in a bar. These are specific circumstances where they are required to be in a bar for business purposes, such as the owner of the bar, the owner/operator of the ATM located inside the bar, Executive Protection Agent's while protecting a client, and Private Investigators while actively conducting investigations, (not inclusive). They must NOT consume any alcohol, or they would be in violation of the Conditions of their License.

my 2 cents,

Librarian
01-11-2010, 9:31 PM
Okay,

Here' my understanding as explained to me by a local Attorney, the Sheriff's Licensing Division, and the CA Attorney General.

While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license, the licensee
shall not, when carrying a concealed weapon:
Consume any alcoholic beverage.
Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site
consumption.
Be under the influence of any medication or drug, whether prescribed or not.
Refuse to show the license or surrender the concealed weapon to any peace officer upon
demand.
Impede any peace officer in the performance of his/her duties.
Present himself/herself as a peace officer to any person unless he/she is, in fact, a peace
officer as defined by California law.
Unjustifiably display a concealed weapon.
Carry a concealed weapon not listed on the permit.
Carry a concealed weapon at times or circumstances other than those specified in the permit.

Here's the kicker....

Any violation of these restrictions or conditions may invalidate the CCW license and may void any further use of the license until reinstated by the licensing authority. Any arrest for a felony or serious misdemeanor, including driving under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs, is cause for invalidating the license.

Bottom line is, several years ago, when CA DOJ Agents raided a local bar looking for illegal weapons-they arrested a local Attorney that had a CCW Permit, and was in the bar, not drinking. DOJ stated that his CCW was INVALID because he had violated the conditions of the license, by Carrying in the bar. So they charged him with carrying a loaded firearm in a public place, without a permit. I was not able to follow up and see what happened with this case, but he is an attorney, so I'm sure he had access to the legal system. My recommendation is to comply with the law. There are several exemptions per our local Sheriff where my CCW Students are allowed to carry in a bar. These are specific circumstances where they are required to be in a bar for business purposes, such as the owner of the bar, the owner/operator of the ATM located inside the bar, Executive Protection Agent's while protecting a client, and Private Investigators while actively conducting investigations, (not inclusive). They must NOT consume any alcohol, or they would be in violation of the Conditions of their License.

my 2 cents,

I'd really like to find out the disposition of that case; it would tend to clear up a lot of things.

CCWUSA
01-13-2010, 7:48 PM
Okay,

Without going into specifics, and in order to maintain privacy, I can relate this update...The Attorney was also a judge pro tem (Appointed as a temporary Judge), and had a valid reason to be in the bar, meeting with clients, and was in fact not consuming any alcohol.

Charges were dropped by DOJ.

I'm not a Judge or an Attorney, so my recommendation is to stay out of the bars unless you have a valid reason or specific need to be in that bar.

Librarian
01-13-2010, 8:03 PM
Okay,

Without going into specifics, and in order to maintain privacy, I can relate this update...The Attorney was also a judge pro tem (Appointed as a temporary Judge), and had a valid reason to be in the bar, meeting with clients, and was in fact not consuming any alcohol.

Charges were dropped by DOJ.

I'm not a Judge or an Attorney, so my recommendation is to stay out of the bars unless you have a valid reason or specific need to be in that bar.

Do you know/recall exactly what PC the charges claimed were violated? Since this didn't go to trial, it likely has no precedential value outside the oral tradition in the particular arresting jurisdiction, but I'm trying to figure out what crime was alleged.

Thanks for the follow up.

CCWUSA
01-16-2010, 10:31 AM
PC 12031 - They claimed that his permit was NOT VALID because he had violated the terms and conditions of the permit, so they could charge him with Carrying a Loaded Firearm in a Public Place. I don't know where the courts would have gone with that argument...but if you are driving without a license, your driver's license was suspended and you don;t know it, or you are driving a vehicle (say a big truck, or motorcycle) without the proper endorsements, you may have a license, but it is not valid under those conditions...I could have seen this going very badly for the Permit holder. Thus my continued recommendations to either stay out of bars, or not bring your gun.

P.S. Don't be the "TEST CASE" unless you have lots of extra money laying around.

Librarian
01-16-2010, 4:14 PM
PC 12031 - They claimed that his permit was NOT VALID because he had violated the terms and conditions of the permit, so they could charge him with Carrying a Loaded Firearm in a Public Place. I don't know where the courts would have gone with that argument...Me neither; I don't really think the DL examples are parallel, but can't think of any that would be.
Thus my continued recommendations to either stay out of bars, or not bring your gun. I'll endorse that as a Very Good Idea.

Thanks again.

MrClamperSir
01-16-2010, 9:48 PM
Me neither; I don't really think the DL examples are parallel, but can't think of any that would be.


Perhaps if your DL was conditional, say you couldn't drive at night, and you were caught driving at night. Maybe we can look into those cases to see if they just pulled the license or actually prosecuted for driving without a license.

5150bronco
01-17-2010, 1:02 AM
there are "rules" on the application that aren't backed up by state law.

There is no PC that says that a CCW is invalid in a bar. Now, if they printed that restriction on the back of the CCW, then it would be invalid while in a bar.

just curious, but would this be left up to the discretion of officer?

Cokebottle
01-17-2010, 2:20 AM
just curious, but would this be left up to the discretion of officer?
Yes and no, depending on the situation.

An arrest is generally at the officer's discretion.

If the officer happens to be in the bar and notices a "print", he can choose to ignore it... or perhaps make contact and let it go with no report filed, just a verbal warning.

If a patron notices the print and calls MWAG to 911, then it's in the dispatch record. At that point, the officer COULD ignore it and falsify his report that the "print" was from something else in a pocket, but if the 911 call indicates that the patron saw the gun itself and the method of concealment leads the officer to believe that is true, then he would be sticking his neck out to falsify the report.
If there is an incident where the carrier needs to unholster and/or fire, there's no way around it... it will be in the report.

At the point that it's in the officer's report, even if he decides not to arrest, it's in the hands of the DA. In a similar manner surrounding Theseus's arrest, even without an arrest at the scene, the DA could review the report and the dispatch logs and decide to issue an arrest warrant himself.

Meplat
01-17-2010, 2:48 PM
I think if my sheriff were concerned about it she would have said so on my permit. It says you can't carry 'under the influence", but nothing about bars. I don't think I have been in a bar sense I got out of the Navy, but if I were roaped into being a D. driver or something I would damn sure be packing!

5150bronco
01-17-2010, 5:17 PM
hmmm. i guess that makes sense. at that point with dispatch. maybe that would be da issue if upper management to decide if wanted to pursue. very interesting how some words are hard to define in the law.