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OCArmory
01-07-2010, 8:25 PM
I have a customer that would like a Taurus judge. I as an FFL don't like the idea of it being marked 45lc/410. So that is not the question. He provided me pictures of the Taurus public defender. The only caliber marking on it is .45lc. I am looking for an educated response as to the legality of this pistol. He is exempt from the roster.
Mike

professorhard
01-07-2010, 8:27 PM
Illegal even for LEOs because it meets the CA definition of a short barrel shotgun.

IrishPirate
01-07-2010, 8:28 PM
How is he exempt? If he's LEO or Military he can have a Judge marked 410/45lc.

IrishPirate
01-07-2010, 8:30 PM
Illegal even for LEOs because it meets the CA definition of a short barrel shotgun.

LEO's can have but can only use in the course of duty. SWAT teams have small 3 shot 12ga shotguns they use for breaching door locks and hinges (not that the Judge can do that). It's not the FFL's job to make sure he only uses it in the line of duty.

OCArmory
01-07-2010, 9:08 PM
The 3 shot 12ga shotguns you are reffering to are registered AOW. Law enforcement agencies must register them on the NFA registry just as you and I would but they don't have to pay a tax on it. Maybe I am just asking this wrong. I will rethink it and get back to you.

BigDogatPlay
01-07-2010, 10:18 PM
The SWAT team AOW's are also all department owned in California, not owned by the individual LEO as is common in many other states.

DoJ says the Judge is an SBS, hence not transferable in or into California by anyone not a governmental agency. And I don't see many agencies clamoring for them. If it is marked as .45LC only, then it could fly as a LEO purchase under the off roster exemption, but putting a .410 shell into it would be creating an SBS in the eyes of California law, I believe, hence a felony.

bombadillo
01-07-2010, 10:27 PM
Only marked .45lc, I don't see the problem. If it happens to chamber the .410 as well, thats just a benefit, but if its not marked, and he's roster exempt, then I see no issue with it.

professorhard
01-07-2010, 10:31 PM
No it is a SBS regardless of markings. No go for even LEOs in CA

bombadillo
01-07-2010, 10:43 PM
^ Explain why. If its marked .45lc and nothing else, why specifically.

bigcalidave
01-07-2010, 10:49 PM
Because if it can fire a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel length of less than 18" it is an SBS.

(c) (1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means
any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed
shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches
in length.


If it fits, it's an SBS.

OC Armory. If the gun can chamber a .410 shotgun shell, it is an SBS and could only be possessed by an LEO on duty.
There is one model on the taurus site which is confusing, and MAY only chamber 45 long colt, but I would call taurus for clarification. Model 4510TKR-3SSMAG | .45 LONG COLT - NEW That is the only model that doesn't also list .410 as a caliber. It's possible they made one that wouldn't be an SBS here?

elSquid
01-07-2010, 11:09 PM
FWIW, according to 12276.1:

(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

...is an AW.

-- Michael

bombadillo
01-07-2010, 11:26 PM
not labeled a shotgun right? Looks to me like a .45 long colt by all manufacturers labels.

bigcalidave
01-07-2010, 11:34 PM
FWIW, according to 12276.1:

(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

...is an AW.

-- Michael


A handgun can NEVER be a "shotgun" for any provision other than in pc 12020 as a "short-barreled shotgun" They are two different and exclusive things. A "shotgun" is defined as intended to be shoulder fired, just like a "rifle" is.

bigcalidave
01-07-2010, 11:35 PM
not labeled a shotgun right? Looks to me like a .45 long colt by all manufacturers labels.

Taurus sucks at pictures and clear descriptions on their website. The chamber looks long enough to still handle a .410, and if that could be fired, it would be an SBS. If the chamber is stepped, and you can only fit a .45LC, it would be gtg.

IrishPirate
01-07-2010, 11:44 PM
Because if it can fire a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel length of less than 18" it is an SBS.



If it fits, it's an SBS.

OC Armory. If the gun can chamber a .410 shotgun shell, it is an SBS and could only be possessed by an LEO on duty.
There is one model on the taurus site which is confusing, and MAY only chamber 45 long colt, but I would call taurus for clarification. Model 4510TKR-3SSMAG | .45 LONG COLT - NEW That is the only model that doesn't also list .410 as a caliber. It's possible they made one that wouldn't be an SBS here?

but it's not DESIGNED to fire a fixed shotgun, it's designed to fire .45lc.....hell, it might have too small a chamber to fit a 410. but if it can fire one through pure coincidence, then it's ok because it's only designed to fire 45lc. Plenty of guns can fire rounds they are not designed for. 357's aren't designed for 38 spl, but they can fire them. One thing that would ruin it for sure would be if the barrel isn't rifled. if it is and it's ONLY marked .45lc, then it's G2G. However, if he gets caught with a cylinder full of 410, he might have some legal troubles. if he keeps it only .45lc, it should be fine

I guess i didn't really articulate what i meant about the little 3 shot 12ga. not sure that i can right now either due to an increase of alcohol in my central nervous system, but what i was getting at (and could have been mistaken on) is that all the laws i've seen about who can and can't own certain weapons always have the exemption of LEO's when using them in the course of duty. The LEO couldn't use them outside of duty, like on a camping trip, but could own them as.....say a personal backup weapon while on duty. perhaps i'm wrong but i'd appreciate it if someone could show me the code about LEO's specifically not being exempt from owning AW, AOW, etc. I always like to learn :D

cheers!

CABilly
01-08-2010, 12:03 AM
Because if it can fire a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel length of less than 18" it is an SBS.
(c) (1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means
any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed
shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches
in length.


If it fits, it's an SBS.

OC Armory. If the gun can chamber a .410 shotgun shell, it is an SBS and could only be possessed by an LEO on duty.
There is one model on the taurus site which is confusing, and MAY only chamber 45 long colt, but I would call taurus for clarification. Model 4510TKR-3SSMAG | .45 LONG COLT - NEW That is the only model that doesn't also list .410 as a caliber. It's possible they made one that wouldn't be an SBS here?

But he wouldn't be redesigning it. What about those who use .40 cal mags in their 9mm handguns for more room? Still a 10-rounder, unmodified and still works in the gun for which it was designed. It just happens to do a little extra.

What about a Taurus Raging Bull in a rifle caliber? Don't they make one in .223? Couldn't an exempt person buy one of those?

bigcalidave
01-08-2010, 12:11 AM
You can't compare the magazine law to this one.

A barrel can't "do a little extra". If the 410 chambers and fires, it was designed to do that.

A short barreled rifle ALWAYS has to be a rifle. A short barreled shotgun does not have to be a shotgun. Read PC 12020. It's in there, well defined.

The only term not well defined, and which I believe could be battled in court, is the term "fixed shotgun shell". Since a .410 handgun could be specified to use .410 handgun ammo, as produced by federal and others, it could be said that it doesn't fire ammunition designed to be fired by a shotgun. (a shotgun is a shoulder fired weapon).

Do not **** with the terminology of "designed or redesigned" that is a terrible place to base your defense. That's a great way to go to jail. Felony possession of a short-barreled shotgun.

If a 410 shotgun shell fits in the chamber, it is an SBS. Absolutely. Until the term "fixed shotgun shell" is defined in legislation.

CABilly
01-08-2010, 12:19 AM
Interesting.

What about people firing that same Federal .410 handgun ammo in their shotguns? Would that then mean they've actually created some smooth-bore AOW manbearpig pistol?

bigcalidave
01-08-2010, 12:21 AM
What?

Oh and all the judge handguns have rifled barrels.

Fjold
01-08-2010, 7:32 AM
The Taurus Judge is made with a longer cylinder to accomodate the .410 shotgun cartridges. It is designed to fire a shotgun cartridge.

ke6guj
01-08-2010, 11:19 AM
IIRC, a standard .45LC chamber will not accept a .410 shotgun shell, so obviously it isn't designed to fire a fixed shotgun shell if one won't even fit in it. However, a .45LC/.410 chamber is cut differently to allow for the .410 shotgun shell to be fired in it.

Now, take a firearm and mark it .45LC only, but ship it with a .45LC/.410 chamber and I think you still have a firearm designed to fire a .410 shotgun shell.

If Taurus uses a Judge-length cylinder but only cuts the chamber to accept .45LC and calls it the Public Defender, then it should be OK (assuming that .410s won't chamber in it). I haven't seen or read much about the PD, so I can't comment on how it is marked, and what chamber it has.

leelaw
01-08-2010, 4:13 PM
LEO's can have but can only use in the course of duty..

They may only use them if the Department purchases them, and issues them for officer use. They have no exemption whatsoever to SBS laws by purchasing them on their own.

for2nato
01-08-2010, 5:42 PM
i was holding a public defender a couple days ago. it is essentially the same gun as the judge. but is not marked with the 410 stamp. it is considered a pistol. and not a sbr. no nfa rules apply to it. hell i can go buy one tommarow if i wanted too.

ke6guj
01-08-2010, 5:46 PM
i was holding a public defender a couple days ago. it is essentially the same gun as the judge. but is not marked with the 410 stamp. it may not be marked, .410, but can it still fire a .410 shotgun shell?


it is considered a pistol. and not a sbr. no nfa rules apply to it. hell i can go buy one tommarow if i wanted too.nobody is saying that it isn't a pistol, but it isn't an SBR. If it can fire a .410 shotgun shell, it is an SBS whether or not it is marked .410.

bigcalidave
01-09-2010, 1:45 AM
i was holding a public defender a couple days ago. it is essentially the same gun as the judge. but is not marked with the 410 stamp. it is considered a pistol. and not a sbr. no nfa rules apply to it. hell i can go buy one tommarow if i wanted too.

I don't have any local stores with one. If it's in CA already, please go to the store, grab a .410 shell and see if it chambers it, if not, go ahead and get one!

Lagduf
01-09-2010, 2:54 AM
i was holding a public defender a couple days ago. it is essentially the same gun as the judge. but is not marked with the 410 stamp. it is considered a pistol. and not a sbr. no nfa rules apply to it. hell i can go buy one tommarow if i wanted too.

The NFA doesn't have anything to do with the Judge. It's legal in probably every other state in the Union.

It's a short barrel shotgun under CA state law.

for2nato
01-09-2010, 12:03 PM
im not in california so these are readily available where im at. and just because a gun can fire a certain round doesnt necessarily classify it as a sbs. if it was not designed to nor marketed for the intent of shooting that round it is not a sbs. if the end user puts shotgun shells in it then he\she has modified the gun into a restricted class. but the initial sale of the gun to leo's is not illegal in and of itself. the public defender is not designed to nor is it marketed with the ability to fire 410 shells. it is legal for sale to leo and under the ppt laws. nowhere on the taurus site or in any taurus literature does it state that the public defender is capable of firing 410 rounds. just because somebody is afraid of the law. doesnt mean what they are afraid of is illegal. hell i have a friend that i tried to give my OLL to before i left california. and i mean give not sell. he did not want it simply because it says on the side "restricted for military/law enforcement use only". its a legal lower that is reg'd to me. and he was afraid he would catch hell from leo over it once it was built. thats a perfect example of my point. because he was afraid of a law he turned down a free OLL. but it is legal.

Quiet
01-09-2010, 12:13 PM
im not in california so these are readily available where im at. and just because a gun can fire a certain round doesnt necessarily classify it as a sbs.

In CA, it does. Because, that is how the law is written [PC 12020(c)(1)].

Federally, it is good to go.
But, under CA state law, it is a no-go.



Penal Code 12020
(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

ke6guj
01-09-2010, 12:26 PM
im not in california so these are readily available where im at. and just because a gun can fire a certain round doesnt necessarily classify it as a sbs. if it was not designed to nor marketed for the intent of shooting that round it is not a sbs. if the end user puts shotgun shells in it then he\she has modified the gun into a restricted class. but the initial sale of the gun to leo's is not illegal in and of itself.
If it has a chamber specifically cut to accept a .410 shotgun shell, it most certainly is designed to shoot it. A standard .45LC cannnot accept a .410 shotgun shell. It takes a special chamber cut to be able to shoot .45LC and .410. I'd argue that the presense of that .410-capable hybrid chamber, even on a handgun marked .45LC only, would indicate that the handgun was designed to fire shotgun shells, otherwise they would have used a .45LC chamber.

Now, if you want to argue that a <18" barreled firearm with a .45/70 chamber isn't an SBS, even though a .410 shell could be fired in it, then that might be exempt from the SBS law, since it doesn't take anything special in the chamber for it to happen. Any .45/70 handgun (yes, they are available) or 16" carbine could be considered an SBS if it was designed to shoot a .410 shell.

But a handgun with a chamber specifically cut to accept a .410 shell was obviously desinged to do so.

the public defender is not designed to nor is it marketed with the ability to fire 410 shells. it is legal for sale to leo and under the ppt laws. nowhere on the taurus site or in any taurus literature does it state that the public defender is capable of firing 410 rounds.

not true.
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=669&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=41
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=662&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=41
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=668&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=41

All three links specifically state that the PD shoots .410 shells, and the video even talks about it.

Crazed_SS
01-09-2010, 12:55 PM
They may only use them if the Department purchases them, and issues them for officer use. They have no exemption whatsoever to SBS laws by purchasing them on their own.

Exactly. All the cool SBRs, AOWs, full-auto rifles, etc that PDs use are owned by the department. Individual cops dont personally own that stuff.

Crazed_SS
01-09-2010, 12:58 PM
i was holding a public defender a couple days ago. it is essentially the same gun as the judge. but is not marked with the 410 stamp. it is considered a pistol. and not a sbr. no nfa rules apply to it. hell i can go buy one tommarow if i wanted too.

You are confusing federal and state laws. Federally, the Judge is NOT a SBS. Under CA law, the Judge IS a SBS. As such, it is a no no here.. even for cops.

Now of the PD wants to buy it and issue it to officers, they could probably do that but an individual wouldnt generally not be able to get this Judge in this state.

bigcalidave
01-09-2010, 2:07 PM
He already said he isn't in california, so I really don't know why he is arguing about california laws here...

ke6guj
01-09-2010, 2:49 PM
He already said he isn't in california, so I really don't know why he is arguing about california laws here...it appears that he moved from CA to OK recently, so I can understand him still being in CA-mode, but he needs to listen to what people are saying. Taurus Judges (and Public Defenders) are not legal in CA because they fit the CA definition of an SBS. the fact that they are legal in ~49 other states doesn't matter, CA defines an SBS differently.

Now, if Taurus actually makes the PD with .45LC only markings, and it can't accept accept a .410 shell, then it would be legal, but I don't see that being the case. I don't see a .45LC-only marketed PD from Taurus, only their .45LC/.410 PD's. If Taurus is marking a .45LC/.410-chambered PD with only .45LC on it, that does sound a little scary to me legally. Thats gonna catch someone out. Plus shooting .45LC in a .410-chamber often gives poor accuracy, so if a person doesn't realize why it shoots poorly, it would reflect badly on Taurus.

freakshow10mm
01-09-2010, 3:41 PM
Right from the Taurus site description. Here's the chamber spec for the model "4510" pistol.

Caliber: .45/.410 (2.5" chamber)
Well, jeez why do you think the model designation is such and the chamber is specifically described as a ".45/.410"?

GJC
01-09-2010, 3:45 PM
I want one :(

dirtnap
01-09-2010, 5:21 PM
I'd still buy one if i could get my hands on it. :)