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View Full Version : another magnetic release tool - legality ?


fd15k
01-07-2010, 2:38 PM
Folks,

I've been thinking lately... What if I have a ring with a Neodymium magnet attached to it, and I pull mag release from the left side of the lower, instead of pushing it on the right side ? Would that be legal while ring is on a finger ?

My concern is that when magnet touches the mag release, it sort of becomes part of the rifle, just like with that other magnetic bb tool...

Thanks!

EDIT: video in post #22

bigcalidave
01-07-2010, 2:46 PM
Why? how? If the ring is attached to you, it can't be attached to the gun. It also sounds awkward, unless you're a lefty? Even then it sounds tricky.

fd15k
01-07-2010, 2:49 PM
Okay, here is how it would work :
You're holding your AR with shooting hand onto the pistol grip.
With your left hand (magnetic ring is on) you touch the mag release, and using
other fingers as a lever you pull the thing out until magnet detaches (and mag falls down) ;)

And no, I am not a lefty :D

Why? how? If the ring is attached to you, it can't be attached to the gun. It also sounds awkward, unless you're a lefty? Even then it sounds tricky.

MasterYong
01-07-2010, 2:57 PM
There are several lengthy threads asking this exact same question.

I don't recall the outcome, but I seem to recall the outcome was decisive.

But I don't see the point. Seems like a magnet strong enough to do that would cause other issues. I'd hate to keep getting caught on things.

fd15k
01-07-2010, 2:59 PM
There are several lengthy threads asking this exact same question.

I don't recall the outcome, but I seem to recall the outcome was decisive.

But I don't see the point. Seems like a magnet strong enough to do that would cause other issues. I'd hate to keep getting caught on things.

Do you mean legal or technical issues ? Magnet needs to be slightly stronger than the tension of the catch spring.

MasterYong
01-07-2010, 3:03 PM
Technical issues. I don't really feel like being personally magnetic in any significant way. I'm in IT, so magnets scare me.

fd15k
01-07-2010, 3:06 PM
Technical issues. I don't really feel like being personally magnetic in any significant way. I'm in IT, so magnets scare me.

I can't see any technical problems on the surface. I just need to know if such tool and approach would be legal, so that I can try to build a prototype ;)

bigcalidave
01-07-2010, 4:08 PM
Here's a problem, you go to move your hand to the mag release, but find it stuck very well to the bolt holding your VFG to the rail.... I agree, having magnets attached to you, just makes you attach to stuff. Not useful.

fd15k
01-07-2010, 4:11 PM
Here's a problem, you go to move your hand to the mag release, but find it stuck very well to the bolt holding your VFG to the rail.... I agree, having magnets attached to you, just makes you attach to stuff. Not useful.

VFG is made of plastic, rail is made of aluminum. Bolt isn't exposed on the left side, and is hidden inside the upper receiver which is made of aluminum. Regardless of the technical problems, my question was about legality - this is a legal forum, right ? :)

corrupt
01-07-2010, 4:46 PM
VFG is made of plastic, rail is made of aluminum. Bolt isn't exposed on the left side, and is hidden inside the upper receiver which is made of aluminum. Regardless of the technical problems, my question was about legality - this is a legal forum, right ? :)

calguns* has found this legal!* *gavel*

next...

* in this context, "calguns" means no one in particular.
* by "legal", the poster means "unnngh... what?"

BKinzey
01-07-2010, 4:48 PM
I'd guess no.

Take the ring off and place it in the appropriate spot. It sticks there right? Now you can use your fingers to pull the ring and operate it but it's still stuck to the rifle correct? So what's the difference between it and the other magnetic type that is a no-no?

for practical reasons I wouldn't want one anyway. I think the ring would pick up all sorts of particles that would interfere with operation and wouldn't take much crap to jam up the internal part either.

fd15k
01-07-2010, 4:52 PM
Your logic is correct, but disposition is wrong. Ring never leaves the finger, thus it is part of the...body :D And body part can't be a part of a rifle, no ? ;)

EDIT: well... actually that's not good either, because we need a tool, not a body part :D So question stands...

Maybe it will pick up some particles, maybe not... but it can provide for one hand mag change,
and pretty fast one... So I would like to test that.

I'd guess no.

Take the ring off and place it in the appropriate spot. It sticks there right? Now you can use your fingers to pull the ring and operate it but it's still stuck to the rifle correct? So what's the difference between it and the other magnetic type that is a no-no?

for practical reasons I wouldn't want one anyway. I think the ring would pick up all sorts of particles that would interfere with operation and wouldn't take much crap to jam up the internal part either.

Dr. Peter Venkman
01-07-2010, 5:05 PM
I don't see it working. It would seems that you would have a regular detachable magazine for the duration of you using the ring.

fd15k
01-07-2010, 5:07 PM
Alright... I will try to create a prototype tonight, and test it with pistol grip removed. I will post the video after that, and let the folks decide legal or not :)

I don't see it working. It would seems that you would have a regular detachable magazine for the duration of you using the ring.

Alex$
01-07-2010, 7:34 PM
what if the ring wearer is a tool? :rolleyes::whistling:

bigcalidave
01-07-2010, 7:35 PM
what if the ring wearer is a tool? :rolleyes::whistling:

Mature!

Alex$
01-07-2010, 7:43 PM
Mature!

Thanks! (note the sarcasm)

Alex$
01-07-2010, 7:47 PM
OK, I'll play...

I just pulled out mine, used neo magnets and stacked them until they were strong enough to pull the mag release from the left side using my weak side hand.

If legal, you would be wearing a ring with a magnet roughly the size of a 230 gr FMJ .45 round. Quite the fashion statement, and a terror to your credit cards.

bigcalidave
01-07-2010, 7:57 PM
Oh, I didn't realize this (very easy to test) application was still theoretical... OP did you even check if this COULD work?

cbn620
01-07-2010, 8:03 PM
Don't they already sell bullet button "tools" on lanyards or whatever? I don't see the point of the magnet other than creating more headaches dealing with local LEAs. I have not seen a "ring" design so that might sell some units, but I just don't see the fascination with magnets. What might be even better is a bullet button "thimble." There, I gave you an idea and I claim no rights to it whatsoever. Don't say I never gave ya nothin.

Alex$
01-07-2010, 8:05 PM
The "prototype" if you want to call it that sitting on my workbench says it is a waste of time.

The magnet does not reliably engage the mag release without also engaging the bolt catch, and it is more of a case of wave your hand around and try to get the right angle to get a good contact with the mag release.

I suppose if you had a purpose shaped neodymium magnet it might reliably engage the release, (I am using old HDD neo magnets) but it would be an odd shaped ring that would tend to interfere with your grip, I would think.

But that is just my opinion.

fd15k
01-07-2010, 8:09 PM
Okay, here is a quick demo :

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0O98nhNvLSc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0O98nhNvLSc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Alex$
01-07-2010, 8:12 PM
Color me surprised, yours is on the front side of your finger, the PVC pipe I made mine out of would not allow for that.

(looks around garage for some half-inch PVC to play with)

fd15k
01-07-2010, 8:16 PM
Color me surprised, yours is on the front side of your finger, the PVC pipe I made mine out of would not allow for that.

(looks around garage for some half-inch PVC to play with)

I actually took a couple of zip ties, taped a magnet to them, and then made the loops :) I really wanted to show the technique, not the tool. My mag release doesn't protrude much out of the lower on the left side, so it doesn't give much surface, but it still works. I would expect having more even surface area would make it more reliable.

Oh, and 2 key factors : speed, and left hand mag change :P

Alex$
01-07-2010, 8:32 PM
Kudos to you fd15k, good idea, 3/4" pvc pipe "ring" and some vinyl tape and it does in fact work as a ring that goes on the second joint of your finger.

If you do go ahead with this (assuming legal) plan on plasti-coating the final as I would think it could lead to scratches, also if not careful the mag release can come completely out and turn. (also leading to scratches)

Hope it works out as legal for you.

*P.S. Though it works, I couldn't stand to have such a thing on my finger, but I can see how it would work for some folks.

fd15k
01-07-2010, 8:36 PM
Kudos to you fd15k, good idea, 3/4" pvc pipe "ring" and some vinyl tape and it does in fact work as a ring that goes on the second joint of your finger.

If you do go ahead with this (assuming legal) plan on plasti-coating the final as I would think it could lead to scratches, also if not careful the mag release can come completely out and turn. (also leading to scratches)

Hope it works out as legal for you.

Yeah, we may need to have the mag release slightly modified, so that it gives even surface, and doesn't come out too much... Otherwise, I want to use this idea in my upcoming ITTS carbine class, that is if our legal folks say it's not illegal :)

Meplat
01-07-2010, 9:05 PM
I can't see any technical problems on the surface. I just need to know if such tool and approach would be legal, so that I can try to build a prototype ;)

I'd rather just have a ring with a point on it. Like a bullet nose?

fd15k
01-07-2010, 9:08 PM
I'd rather just have a ring with a point on it. Like a bullet nose?

The smaller is the surface area, the harder it is to press on it. Magnet-pulling approach increases the execution speed. Also, you have to press on the right side - either you have to rotate your rifle, thus gravity won't help with magazine removal, or you have to remove your shooting hand from the pistol grip... will slow you down :P

Meplat
01-07-2010, 9:11 PM
They laughed at the Wright bros. too. You stick to your guns.

VFG is made of plastic, rail is made of aluminum. Bolt isn't exposed on the left side, and is hidden inside the upper receiver which is made of aluminum. Regardless of the technical problems, my question was about legality - this is a legal forum, right ? :)

Meplat
01-07-2010, 9:16 PM
Your logic is correct, but disposition is wrong. Ring never leaves the finger, thus it is part of the...body :D And body part can't be a part of a rifle, no ? ;)

EDIT: well... actually that's not good either, because we need a tool, not a body part :D So question stands...

Maybe it will pick up some particles, maybe not... but it can provide for one hand mag change,
and pretty fast one... So I would like to test that.

You dont have a body part that is a tool? Are you a girl?

fd15k
01-07-2010, 9:17 PM
Haha :D

You dont have a body part that is a tool? Are you a girl?

Meplat
01-07-2010, 9:26 PM
Slick

Okay, here is a quick demo :

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0O98nhNvLSc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0O98nhNvLSc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

fd15k
01-07-2010, 9:32 PM
Slick

Try it yourself. I've got a magnet out of old harddrive, but also I've ordered some smaller ones on Ebay :D

P.S. is it ironic I've put it on the middle finger? It's almost like showing the FINGER to the legislators :D

Meplat
01-07-2010, 9:40 PM
If you build up the area of non-ferrous receiver around the mag release to the point that the magnet and mag release do not touch and make the ring heavy enough that it will fall off the receiver of its own weight I dont see how they could call it an attachment and not a tool.

Yeah, we may need to have the mag release slightly modified, so that it gives even surface, and doesn't come out too much... Otherwise, I want to use this idea in my upcoming ITTS carbine class, that is if our legal folks say it's not illegal :)

fd15k
01-07-2010, 9:43 PM
If you build up the area of non-ferrous receiver around the mag release to the point that the magnet and mag release do not touch and make the ring heavy enough that it will fall off the receiver of its own weight I dont see how they could call it an attachment and not a tool.

That will be a problem. Those magnets are very strong, they will hold much more than their own weight...

Meplat
01-07-2010, 9:52 PM
That will be a problem. Those magnets are very strong, they will hold much more than their own weight...

If you were to leave it on the gun would it hold the mag release permanently open thus rendering the gun a single shot? If so it is significantly different than the magnetic buttons that are just a way to "attach" a mag release extension. It doesn't stay on the gun, it does not become part of the gun, if so it renders the gun a single shot. It's just a really fast convenient tool!

At least that's what I would argue, as they lead you off to jail, if I were your lawyer. :43:

fd15k
01-07-2010, 9:57 PM
You're making it more complicated than I expected it would be :D It is possible to make it permanently open should it stay attached, but that would require some mods, and probably much stronger magnet... So what it boils down to, does it matter what principle is used in a tool to detach a magazine, should it be worn on a finger ?

If you were to leave it on the gun would it hold the mag release permanently open thus rendering the gun a single shot? If so it is significantly different than the magnetic buttons that are just a way to "attach" a mag release extension. It doesn't stay on the gun, it does not become part of the gun, if so it renders the gun a single shot. It's just a really fast convenient tool!

At least that's what I would argue, as they lead you off to jail, if I were your lawyer. :43:

Meplat
01-07-2010, 10:08 PM
You're making it more complicated than I expected it would be :D It is possible to make it permanently open should it stay attached, but that would require some mods, and probably much stronger magnet... So what it boils down to, does it matter what principle is used in a tool to detach a magazine, should it be worn on a finger ?

What I am saying is that if it will release the mag by just passing by the mag release, as seen in the video, and it will not fall off of the gun if placed over the release while off your finger, it should hold the mag release open if you did that, turning the gun into a single shot not capable of retaining a mag. Not that you would use it in that fashion but DOJ could not claim you could use it in that way to defeat the "tool" requirement. I hope I'm being clear but I'm not sure. You are telling me it's a strong magnet, it wont fall off. That leads me to believe that if off the finger and stuck to the side of the gun it would prevent the mag catch from retaining a mag, no?

fd15k
01-08-2010, 4:19 AM
What I am saying is that if it will release the mag by just passing by the mag release, as seen in the video, and it will not fall off of the gun if placed over the release while off your finger, it should hold the mag release open if you did that, turning the gun into a single shot not capable of retaining a mag. Not that you would use it in that fashion but DOJ could not claim you could use it in that way to defeat the "tool" requirement. I hope I'm being clear but I'm not sure. You are telling me it's a strong magnet, it wont fall off. That leads me to believe that if off the finger and stuck to the side of the gun it would prevent the mag catch from retaining a mag, no?

It doesn't really work by "passing". You attach a magnet to the release, then pull until release can't go any further and magnet detaches. So should it be removed off the finger, and attached to the mag release, release won't stay in open position. So articulating it over the effect it creates to the rifle won't work. What the real question is, how would it be different say from a ring with a bullet tip on it ;) Both would be worn; both require application of force; one is push, the other is pull.

Pyrodyne
01-08-2010, 6:09 AM
Perhaps this wouldn't be too useful for left-handed operation, but you could flip the magnets to oppose rather than attract, and then you wouldn't have the problem of a "sticking" tool.

bodger
01-08-2010, 7:02 AM
Don't they already sell bullet button "tools" on lanyards or whatever? I don't see the point of the magnet other than creating more headaches dealing with local LEAs. I have not seen a "ring" design so that might sell some units, but I just don't see the fascination with magnets. What might be even better is a bullet button "thimble." There, I gave you an idea and I claim no rights to it whatsoever. Don't say I never gave ya nothin.


I got mine from Riflegear. It's an inert .223 round attached to a keychain that is retractable and winds up into a little case that you clip on your jacket or belt.
I've never used anything else, but it's pretty easy to use. I don't think I would mess around with magnets, especially since once the magnet touches and grips the mag release, could it be argued that it's attached to the rifle?

WokMaster1
01-08-2010, 7:29 AM
Hmm, can you take a pix/video of the magnet set up as you had described? I love the idea & would definitely get one from you if the 'right people" say it's kosher.

sepiid
01-08-2010, 8:00 AM
what about having a mag release made of neomidum? and having the pole run long side.

then you could use a ring type device to either pull the mag release or switch the ring and you could use it to repel the mag release from strong side?

just thoughts

Alex$
01-08-2010, 10:45 AM
If the mag release were neodymium you would have a few issues to contend with: Neodymium or other rare earth magnets are very brittle and can shatter; the neo mag release would clamp down on the ferrous magazine and lock it in place. (I suppose you could use polymer mags only)

bodger
01-08-2010, 10:53 AM
Okay, here is a quick demo :

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0O98nhNvLSc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0O98nhNvLSc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


Okay, that's pretty dang cool. I respect an inventor who can back up his claims.

So....$49.95 plus shipping???? Or what.:D:D

fd15k
01-08-2010, 1:17 PM
Okay, that's pretty dang cool. I respect an inventor who can back up his claims.

So....$49.95 plus shipping???? Or what.:D:D

I don't think it's worth making it into a product, because I expect AW law to be struck down shortly ;) Or am I too optimistic ? :rolleyes:
But I was looking for a simple solution to employ in a Tactical Carbine class, and I believe this one
should work pretty well as long as we articulate its legality (there will be some LEOs in that class
I intend to take, I don't want to get into any trouble...).

Anyway, this is more like a $5 do-it-yourself project. One can use any material to make a band,
such as PVC pipe, but I would suggest something like a piece of hard plastic tape (like the
one they use on top of boxes with appliances when transporting), and then a rectangular neodymium magnet.
And note that size of the magnet depends on strength of the spring and available surface area on
the mag catch - so with some minor mods, magnet could be really small and comfy.

fd15k
01-08-2010, 6:33 PM
Perhaps this wouldn't be too useful for left-handed operation, but you could flip the magnets to oppose rather than attract, and then you wouldn't have the problem of a "sticking" tool.

You could certainly try that, but that would require a mod to the bullet button itself. One way to achieve that - make the button cage longer, so that it becomes possible to sink a small neodymium magnet in there without it sticking out, and then a use magnetic tool with same polarity - the larger is the tool, the less accuracy you would need in applying it, thus more speed you can achieve.

That doesn't work for me though - I am a right hand shooter.

fd15k
01-08-2010, 6:36 PM
Hmm, can you take a pix/video of the magnet set up as you had described? I love the idea & would definitely get one from you if the 'right people" say it's kosher.

Here is an ugly example made of materials I had handy :

1) plastic tape from packaging
2) magnet from a hard drive
3) vinyl tape

http://76.169.63.50/ring/1.jpg
http://76.169.63.50/ring/2.jpg

P.S. same size magnet was used in the video, but slightly different band.

JSilvoso
01-11-2010, 2:00 PM
Our office has already rendered an opinion on the magnetic tool release (see link below). Though it sounds like our opinion on the magnetic "tool" issue is slightly different than the "tool" discussed here.

http://www.calgunlaws.com/images/stories/Docs/aw%20weapons%20modifications%20memo.pdf

Hope it helps answer a few questions.

fd15k
01-11-2010, 2:08 PM
Our office has already rendered an opinion on the magnetic tool release (see link below). Though it sounds like our opinion on the magnetic "tool" issue is slightly different than the "tool" discussed here.

http://www.calgunlaws.com/images/stories/Docs/aw%20weapons%20modifications%20memo.pdf

Hope it helps answer a few questions.

You're correct, the approach being discussed in this thread is different. The tool gets in temporary contact with the release mechanism when magazine is being removed, but it is not attached to the firearm in any way any other time (it could be though due to its magnetic nature).

bigcalidave
01-11-2010, 2:22 PM
Wait, Ok I like the magnet ring now, it actually looked pretty good in the video.

Problem is that the bullet button is the best application of the letter of the law. Specifically using a bullet as a tool as defined. Why mess with perfection? If something fails and your magnet ring ends up attached to the weapon instead of your hand, BAM AW. :(

fd15k
01-11-2010, 2:24 PM
Wait, Ok I like the magnet ring now, it actually looked pretty good in the video.

Problem is that the bullet button is the best application of the letter of the law. Specifically using a bullet as a tool as defined. Why mess with perfection? If something fails and your magnet ring ends up attached to the weapon instead of your hand, BAM AW. :(

There is a specific rationale behind it. When I go to the range, it doesn't matter how long does it take to remove the mag. But taking a Tactical Carbine class requires ability to perform quick mag changes, and that's what I was trying to figure out :)

bwiese
01-11-2010, 4:30 PM
You're correct, the approach being discussed in this thread is different. The tool gets in temporary contact with the release mechanism when magazine is being removed, but it is not attached to the firearm in any way any other time (it could be though due to its magnetic nature).

That's the problem. It sticks.
If and when it sticks, it's part of the gun.

Don't do it.

fd15k
01-11-2010, 4:32 PM
That's the problem. It sticks.
If and when it sticks, it's part of the gun.

Don't do it.

Alright :) But just for fun of it... If I superglue my finger to the mag release, would that be an AW ? :D

bwiese
01-11-2010, 4:33 PM
Alright :) But just for fun of it... If I superglue my finger to the mag release, would that be an AW ? :D

Hah, then *you'd* the "tool" - and that role is exclusively reserved for Iggy Chinn.

mhho
01-13-2010, 11:16 PM
Alright :) But just for fun of it... If I superglue my finger to the mag release, would that be an AW ? :D

YOU are now the weapon Sir!

fd15k
01-13-2010, 11:17 PM
YOU are now the weapon Sir!

Yeah... Anyway, I trust Bill's judgment, so don't try that in public :)

Grakken
01-14-2010, 8:44 AM
Hah, then *you'd* the "tool" - and that role is exclusively reserved for Iggy Chinn.

lol.

I don't understand the fascination with these magnet tools. Why bother even installing a bullet button? I'm not the type that can't have his opinion changed but I just don't see the attraction. As soon as you use these things, you make an AW. If you plan on going to a free state, well than just install the regular mag release. With the BB's today, it takes what? 3 minutes?

I'm not hating, I just think it is pointless (and dangerous from a law perspective)

fd15k
01-14-2010, 9:02 AM
lol.

I don't understand the fascination with these magnet tools. Why bother even installing a bullet button? I'm not the type that can't have his opinion changed but I just don't see the attraction. As soon as you use these things, you make an AW. If you plan on going to a free state, well than just install the regular mag release. With the BB's today, it takes what? 3 minutes?

I'm not hating, I just think it is pointless (and dangerous from a law perspective)

I guess you just didn't pay much attention to the thread :)

dirtnap
01-14-2010, 9:25 AM
Just use the bullet button wrench, screw it in during the class and remove it before you leave. Nobody at a carbine rifle class is going to call the cops, and none of the cops there give a rats azz about how you drop your mags.

Grakken
01-14-2010, 9:26 AM
I guess you just didn't pay much attention to the thread :)


yeah, i should have also wrote in the beginning

TL/DR

hehe

fd15k
01-14-2010, 9:27 AM
Just use the bullet button wrench, screw it in during the class and remove it before you leave. Nobody at a carbine rifle class is going to call the cops, and none of the cops there give a rats azz about how you drop your mags.

You are funny. Did I mention cops will be attending the class ? How about the fact several assistant instructors at ITTS are active duty LEOs ?

Merle
01-14-2010, 9:27 AM
Cool.

What would happen if you glued magnets to the magazines? Basically "swiping" a loaded magazine to get the current magazine to drop, and then replacing it.

The "current" magnet doesn't do anything. The "new" magazine w/ magnet isn't attached nor attachable with the existing magazine present.

fd15k
01-14-2010, 9:30 AM
Cool.

What would happen if you glued magnets to the magazines? Basically "swiping" a loaded magazine to get the current magazine to drop, and then replacing it.

The "current" magnet doesn't do anything. The "new" magazine w/ magnet isn't attached nor attachable with the existing magazine present.

Might work with a full mag, but there is a good chance an empty mag would stick :) Give the mag extra weight - simulate 30/30. Attach magnet to the floor plate on
inside. Good thing we're then not limited by the size of the magnet, just as long as the mag doesn't stick when let go.

Worth a consideration though... Anyone from legal department can comment ?

dirtnap
01-14-2010, 9:32 AM
You are funny. Did I mention cops will be attending the class ? How about the fact several assistant instructors at ITTS are active duty LEOs ?

I still use mine, there are cops at the classes I attend as well. If you're that worried talk to the guys and see how they feel about it. Tell them you don't want to drag the class down by being slow, chances are they will give you the OK.

fd15k
01-14-2010, 9:57 AM
I still use mine, there are cops at the classes I attend as well. If you're that worried talk to the guys and see how they feel about it. Tell them you don't want to drag the class down by being slow, chances are they will give you the OK.

Well, I'm not comfortable with that. I need a solid system that can be employed regardless of whether there are LEOs who are buddies of mine or some random patrol guys.

bwiese
01-14-2010, 10:03 AM
I still use mine, there are cops at the classes I attend as well. If you're that worried talk to the guys and see how they feel about it. Tell them you don't want to drag the class down by being slow, chances are they will give you the OK.

Please give me the names/badge #s of those cops.
This can be a big help if we pop a few of them.

MasterYong
01-14-2010, 11:15 AM
I still use mine, there are cops at the classes I attend as well. If you're that worried talk to the guys and see how they feel about it. Tell them you don't want to drag the class down by being slow, chances are they will give you the OK.

These classes are out of state, right?

If not, and I may be mistaken, didn't you just admit on a public forum to manufacturing an AW??? :eek:

No offense intended, but perhaps your post was hypothetical? If not, there are some folks around here that don't seem to like it when CG members suggest that other CG members break firearms laws...

Seesm
01-14-2010, 6:28 PM
Just use the bullet button wrench, screw it in during the class and remove it before you leave. Nobody at a carbine rifle class is going to call the cops, and none of the cops there give a rats azz about how you drop your mags.

But that is illegal and we should NOT be talking about DOING illegal stuff on this site... Just my 2 cents worth of course. But below Bill has a nice idea... :) I however say follow the law and stay of of club fed...

Please give me the names/badge #s of those cops.
This can be a big help if we pop a few of them.

You go BILL!!!

aplinker
01-14-2010, 6:35 PM
Folks,

I've been thinking lately... What if I have a ring with a Neodymium magnet attached to it, and I pull mag release from the left side of the lower, instead of pushing it on the right side ? Would that be legal while ring is on a finger ?

My concern is that when magnet touches the mag release, it sort of becomes part of the rifle, just like with that other magnetic bb tool...

Thanks!

EDIT: video in post #22

This isn't a new idea... we discussed it in-depth a year or so ago... and a bit a year before that, and so on...

Not legal. The issue is that when the mag is attached to the rifle, in that moment, it's a detachable mag rifle.

I posted up an inverse magnet method. It would take more engineering, though. Here's the thread:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=187452

Meplat
01-14-2010, 7:37 PM
I like the magnet on the floorplate idea because the weight of the mag would keep it from sticking to the rifle and thus becoming attached. However once it was inserted into the mag well it would be attached just like a tool on a chain or string. What say the experts?

This isn't a new idea... we discussed it in-depth a year or so ago... and a bit a year before that, and so on...

Not legal. The issue is that when the mag is attached to the rifle, in that moment, it's a detachable mag rifle.

I posted up an inverse magnet method. It would take more engineering, though. Here's the thread:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=187452

MasterYong
01-15-2010, 7:45 AM
I like the magnet on the floorplate idea because the weight of the mag would keep it from sticking to the rifle and thus becoming attached. However once it was inserted into the mag well it would be attached just like a tool on a chain or string. What say the experts?

It seems to me that if the magnet was strong enough to overcome the spring tension then it would be strong enough to stick to the mag catch, possibly even with a full mag (at least a 10 rounder, maybe not a 30 rounder). It just seems like a poor solution.

Magnetic releases just seem to me to be a solution looking for a problem. The current BB designs work as well as any magnetic release could with no real possibility of inadvertently manufacturing an AW.

fd15k
01-15-2010, 7:51 AM
It seems to me that if the magnet was strong enough to overcome the spring tension then it would be strong enough to stick to the mag catch, possibly even with a full mag (at least a 10 rounder, maybe not a 30 rounder). It just seems like a poor solution.

Magnetic releases just seem to me to be a solution looking for a problem. The current BB designs work as well as any magnetic release could with no real possibility of inadvertently manufacturing an AW.

You are speculating. We have proposed a solution where magazine won't stick to the rifle using its magnet. Now we need to get an opinion from the legal perspective on that type of solution. Should we establish that it would be legal, we will then go and build a prototype. Should we fail to build the prototype that meets the criteria of non-stickiness, we will then scrap the entire idea :)

MasterYong
01-15-2010, 8:11 AM
You are speculating. We have proposed a solution where magazine won't stick to the rifle using its magnet. Now we need to get an opinion from the legal perspective on that type of solution. Should we establish that it would be legal, we will then go and build a prototype. Should we fail to build the prototype that meets the criteria of non-stickiness, we will then scrap the entire idea :)

Can you point to the post number that "proposed a solution where magazine won't stick to the rifle using its magnet" as you put it? I re-read the whole thread and I'm not seeing it.

Again, solution looking for a problem. Modern BBs work fine. If you want a functional rifle, make a featureless one. Featureless rifles are no less functional than "evil" rifles in other states.

fd15k
01-15-2010, 8:18 AM
Can you point to the post number that "proposed a solution where magazine won't stick to the rifle using its magnet" as you put it? I re-read the whole thread and I'm not seeing it.

Again, solution looking for a problem. Modern BBs work fine. If you want a functional rifle, make a featureless one. Featureless rifles are no less functional than "evil" rifles in other states.

post #64, I wrote:

Might work with a full mag, but there is a good chance an empty mag would stick Give the mag extra weight - simulate 30/30. Attach magnet to the floor plate on
inside. Good thing we're then not limited by the size of the magnet, just as long as the mag doesn't stick when let go.

Worth a consideration though... Anyone from legal department can comment ?

MasterYong
01-15-2010, 9:24 AM
OK but isn't the whole point of this being the ability to have a more functional rifle? Adding weight to mags to simulate 30 rounds when you only have 10 (or none) seems again, like a solution looking for a problem. You're talking about carrying around a lot of extra weight. At least when that extra weight is ammo you have, well, ammo. In this case you have a paperweight instead of a BB tool. I stand by my contention.

fd15k
01-15-2010, 9:35 AM
OK but isn't the whole point of this being the ability to have a more functional rifle? Adding weight to mags to simulate 30 rounds when you only have 10 (or none) seems again, like a solution looking for a problem. You're talking about carrying around a lot of extra weight. At least when that extra weight is ammo you have, well, ammo. In this case you have a paperweight instead of a BB tool. I stand by my contention.

I reiterate. Point is to train with a carbine which allows quick one-handed magazine change, while following the letter of the law. Whether the magazine weighs like it has 30 rounds in it, or only 10 doesn't really matter. What matters is that if your magazine has a 30rd body, regardless of how many rounds it holds de-facto, you will have a skill to be able to fetch normal 30-rounders from a pouch, and put them into your carbine fast with your support (left) hand only.

Whether you see the rationale or not, it really depends on HOW you enjoy your guns ;) I enjoy mine FAST :D

MasterYong
01-15-2010, 9:43 AM
I absolutely guarantee you I can drop a BB-equipped mag as fast as I can drop a mag in a free state. So can anyone else if they train.

I just prefer featureless because I don't have to keep track of a tool. With you system, I'd still prefer it, since your system requires the user only uses specific mags.

fd15k
01-15-2010, 10:08 AM
I absolutely guarantee you I can drop a BB-equipped mag as fast as I can drop a mag in a free state. So can anyone else if they train.

I just prefer featureless because I don't have to keep track of a tool. With you system, I'd still prefer it, since your system requires the user only uses specific mags.

Under absolutely all conditions ? Dark, cold, wet... well, I can't, but I'm glad you were able to adapt.

As for using specific mags only - you still retain a backup option of using BB :) Regardless, you're still debating the rationale, which is a 100% personal issue of preferences. Without the legal base though, this solution can't be employed useful or not.