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adamsreeftank
01-07-2010, 11:15 AM
Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

I guess if you don't have a lower receiver you might be OK, but I don't see any NFA warnings you would expect.

Click to enlarge
Colt M16A1 Parts Kit
[WB7]

Colt M16A1 Parts Kit, Used Great condition. Comes with a New U.S. Made Barrel. Caliber .223 Limited Qty......

$499.99


http://www.copesdistributing.net/product_info.php?cPath=49&products_id=2048

http://www.copesdistributing.net/images/HPIM2790.JPG

383green
01-07-2010, 11:30 AM
Hmm, I was under the impression that some of those select fire components (auto sear, auto selector, auto hammer, etc.) would be no-nos under NFA. If it wasn't for those few small components, I'd be tempted to order up one of these parts kits for a vintage-style OLL build.

I don't see either of the disconnectors in there, though. I wonder if that makes a difference?

yellowfin
01-07-2010, 11:33 AM
I think what they're getting at with that is to have something that LOOKS LIKE the A1. Notice what you see there. It's a 20" barrel, carry handle upper receiver, original style handguards, and a fixed stock. Add a lower receiver and you have a perfect clone of the original AR15 circa 1950's, straight off of Eugene Stoner's design.

What you're seeing is the words M16 and thinking select fire, but what they mean to say is retro/original style AR. You don't see many of those these days as new builds, so what they're doing is selling the nostalgic look and about the only concise way to do that is to say M16A1. Original 1957 AR15 isn't as recognizable, and people might actually wonder if it was C&R. No way would they sell NFA components at that price--the price alone tells you what's really up. (Unless somehow the '86 ban just got repealed and we don't know it yet, which would be like winning the lottery.)

DarkHorse
01-07-2010, 11:35 AM
ETA: I am what Todd did, so this can be disre God did.

383green
01-07-2010, 11:39 AM
Look closely at the small parts picture.

Lower left piece is the auto sear (the component that gets tripped by the leading edge on the bottom of the FA bolt carrier), if I'm not mistaken.

The lower left corner of the hammer has the extension and notch that engages the FA disconnector, I believe.

I don't see either the regular disconnector or the FA disconnector in there, and I'm not sure about the selector, but I do see what appears to be some FA FCG parts in the picture.

yellowfin
01-07-2010, 11:50 AM
The picture may be inaccurate, might have been just what they could find quickly. A transferrable auto sear alone I believe is worth several thousand bucks, and several hundred thousand dollars in penalties and/or lawyer fees if it isn't. I honestly don't think they'd be careless enough to make that mistake.

DarkHorse
01-07-2010, 11:51 AM
Yeah, I guess I should zoom in more.

Regardless, a phone call would probably clear it up.

MasterYong
01-07-2010, 11:55 AM
M16 in .223?

Is that authentic?

383green
01-07-2010, 11:55 AM
If it is really a demilled M16A1 parts kit, and it wouldn't include any components that would trigger constructive possession under NFA, I might just buy one for an OLL build. Heck, I have some extra hammer/trigger groups sitting in the parts box from trigger upgrades that I've done, so I'd just need a stripped lower and a bullet button. I even have a taper pin reamer already for pinning the gas/sight block onto that fresh barrel (which would need to be parkerized, of course).

So, who's gonna call them for clarification? :)

383green
01-07-2010, 11:58 AM
M16 in .223?

Is that authentic?

My guess is that it's an imported parts kit obtained from a demilled gun sold overseas, and the original barrel couldn't come back because of BATFE's #(&%#!*$ import restrictions. So, Copes probably just threw in the cheapest new in-the-white barrel they could find. While getting to the bottom of the NFA parts issue, it'd also be nice to verify whether the replacement barrel is chambered for 5.56 military ammo.

DarkHorse
01-07-2010, 12:22 PM
LOL...just got off the phone with Terri (?), and she said:

the parts kit DOES contain FA parts ("All M16's are full-auto")
the barrel is .223, not 5.56

Good luck with that.

ETA: The way she was explaining it, these are just parts, and not the transferable MG, so it's OK to sell them. I see where they're coming from, but I don't know if they're correct or not.

spegull03
01-07-2010, 12:49 PM
So if you buy this parts kit, and have a lower with the correct holes, a complete FA rifle could be made? Hmm, sounds fishy...

SixPointEight
01-07-2010, 12:55 PM
Look closely at the small parts picture.

Lower left piece is the auto sear (the component that gets tripped by the leading edge on the bottom of the FA bolt carrier), if I'm not mistaken.

The lower left corner of the hammer has the extension and notch that engages the FA disconnector, I believe.

I don't see either the regular disconnector or the FA disconnector in there, and I'm not sure about the selector, but I do see what appears to be some FA FCG parts in the picture.
I think I'm gonna agree. It looks like an auto bolt too

This is cool...but I won't be buying one, no thank you.

Although I do think the person that commented on the price of the auto-sear is correct, I think they are usually quite expensive.

383green
01-07-2010, 1:15 PM
the parts kit DOES contain FA parts ("All M16's are full-auto")
the barrel is .223, not 5.56


Well, there are two good reasons to NOT buy one of these parts kits IMHO. I'd want the 5.56 chamber, and I wouldn't want to risk any constructive possession issues. Now, if it was a 5.56 barrel and they'd leave a few specific pieces of the LPK out of it it'd be OK, but I'll just go waste my money on something else, instead. :)



I think I'm gonna agree. It looks like an auto bolt too

I'm pretty sure that the auto bolt carrier is perfectly OK according to BATFE, and many legal semi-auto ARs come from the manufacturer with them. On the other hand, I think some of those lower parts kit components are NOT ok!


Although I do think the person that commented on the price of the auto-sear is correct, I think they are usually quite expensive.

As I understand it, a registerable sear is terribly expensive because of its registerability, since the 1986 NFA created a perpetually fixed supply of them. On the other hand, an unregisterable sear is just a little piece of steel worth less than a dollar. You might even say it has a negative value due to the constructive possession rules and the liability inherent in its possession.

-hanko
01-07-2010, 1:37 PM
Absent that little hole centered directly above the safety hole on the lower receiver, is constructive possession an issue? No CP issue if you don't already have at least one lower, possible BF issue if you do.:eek:

Some one with more knowledge will respond.;) I'd have a damn firm answer either way before I ordered, imo.

-hanko

yellowfin
01-07-2010, 2:14 PM
So if you buy this parts kit, and have a lower with the correct holes, a complete FA rifle could be made? Hmm, sounds fishy...
FA fire control groups won't fit in a purpose made semi auto AR15 lower receiver. The sear, selector, disconnector, and maybe one or two other parts are required to have a complete FA fire control group which would function in full auto mode. Less than that and you don't have full auto, or even close, as it wouldn't all fit together, and if you have a standard AR15 receiver you won't be able to put it in there anyway. As for how far constructive possession goes, I think you have to have all of it, and particularly the sear which I'm guessing we figure isn't there--or if they're doing any kind of good job at all, it won't be.

I think the person answering the phone is probably hired help, not an expert.

AJAX22
01-07-2010, 2:21 PM
FA fire control groups won't fit in a purpose made semi auto AR15 lower receiver. The sear, selector, disconnector, and maybe one or two other parts are required to have a complete FA fire control group which would function in full auto mode. Less than that and you don't have full auto, or even close, as it wouldn't all fit together, and if you have a standard AR15 receiver you won't be able to put it in there anyway. As for how far constructive possession goes, I think you have to have all of it, and particularly the sear which I'm guessing we figure isn't there--or if they're doing any kind of good job at all, it won't be.

I think the person answering the phone is probably hired help, not an expert.

You CAN make a regular ar15 run full auto just using the FA selector, dissconnector, and trigger....

you just can't do it in 5.56..

If you installed those FA parts in a regular AR lower along with a 9mm upper or .22LR conversion kit you would create a situation where the hammer would follow the bolt down when in the 3rd position...

in a 5.56 this would sputter and jam (its designed to)

but in a 9mm or .22LR which doesn't have the rotating bolt and firing pin lockout to prevent out of battery detonation it will provide a very controllable, very functional FA...

Its still a felony and a bad idea... so don't do it.

Constructive possession still applies.

bigcalidave
01-07-2010, 2:22 PM
Also, the registered auto sear is a drop in auto sear, which is for making an AR15 FCG go full auto. Also there are registered lightning links. An M16 FCG is useless without the right lower, you can't even install it all in an AR lower. Constructive possession is an issue with NFA stuff, and it would really be best not to have those parts around, but you couldn't use them. Having a DIAS or lightning link is VERY bad unless it's registered.

Great price for a retro build kit. Order it, throw out the FCG when it shows up. :D If there are a few black sedans following around the UPS truck, don't sign for the package.

yellowfin
01-07-2010, 2:29 PM
I guess it's good to see foreign M16's come back to us instead of into a cruncher. Being in NYS I'd have to swap out the flash...er, muzzle end accessory. We gotta get that darn barrel ban lifted, though. Who was the Mr. Dumas that put that into effect? :mad:

383green
01-07-2010, 2:30 PM
Great price for a retro build kit. Order it, throw out the FCG when it shows up. :D If there are a few black sedans following around the UPS truck, don't sign for the package.

Is it still a good price if the barrel is really chambered for .223 only, and you want to be able to safely fire hot 5.56 loads, so you end up replacing the barrel?

It might still have a 5.56 chamber; the person answering the phone might have just been reading off the same catalog description.

bigcalidave
01-07-2010, 2:37 PM
They probably don't have a clue. Somebody should buy one and check.

DarkHorse
01-07-2010, 3:43 PM
I specifically asked about the barrel chamber, and mentioned how it was a safety issue, and she told me that "we were told they are .223" She did put me on hold for a few seconds, so I assumed she asked somebody that knew, but it's impossible to say.

I forgot to ask who made the barrel, but for my money, the whole point would be to get a Colt barrel.

Kharn
01-07-2010, 3:54 PM
Toss the autosear (that's a normal M16 autosear, not a registered DIAS, you would need a lower milled & drilled for one in order to have fun, ARs have a lot more metal in that area than just needing one hit from a drill press) and the rest of the fire control group in the nearest river and you're in the clear. Now the only problem is getting the FSB onto the barrel, kit builds were much easier before the barrel import ban...

Standard M16 receiver:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42181&stc=1&d=1262912284

AR15 receiver/RDAIS:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42182&stc=1&d=1262912345

SP1200
01-07-2010, 5:16 PM
LOL...just got off the phone with Terri (?), and she said:

the parts kit DOES contain FA parts ("All M16's are full-auto")
the barrel is .223, not 5.56

Good luck with that.

ETA: The way she was explaining it, these are just parts, and not the transferable MG, so it's OK to sell them. I see where they're coming from, but I don't know if they're correct or not.

They are correct! And that parts kit is legal in a free state. How ever any FA FCG parts are illegal by CA state law. It's a state law not NFA federal violation.

I know a few guys who have registered M16's in NV, and they sure take a beating, so these replacement parts kits are a good thing for MG owners as replacement parts kits. However, if someone in a free state were to order the parts kit, with out owning a registered MG, that person would be in violation of the federal constructive possession law. But the feds are not going to go busting your door down just because you ordered the kit.

For anyone wanting authentic M16 look in CA, make sure to ask copes to NOT include any FA FCG parts, and youre GTG!

SP1200
01-07-2010, 5:28 PM
Great price for a retro build kit. Order it, throw out the FCG when it shows up. :D If there are a few black sedans following around the UPS truck, don't sign for the package.

You guys don't understand!

If you receive a package with a single FA FCG part in it, you are committing a CA felony! Ask them NOT to ship the FCG!

I'll say it again. Possession of any FA FCG part in CA is a state felony.

freakshow10mm
01-07-2010, 5:45 PM
Thinking of buying one and making a retro machine gun. I see the auto sear there and I have a burst kit here on the desk that needs a home.

If you guys get one, have them send the FA parts to me. I'll trade you SA parts.

383green
01-07-2010, 6:00 PM
Freakshow, maybe you could arrange a holding company service in which when us California inmates order fun stuff with restricted pieces like FA sears and big magazines, the vendors drop-ship the bad bits straight to you for holding until we get the laws fixed here? There could be an annual subscription fee or something. ;)

SJgunguy24
01-07-2010, 6:10 PM
Buy the kit, destroy the FA parts and get a lower and LPK and build your gun.
All the AK kit's I got had the FA parts, I chopped them up with a grinder and tossed them.

loather
01-07-2010, 6:29 PM
I've got one of these kits. A bunch of them came back from somewhere (probably Israel) and were sold through Century Arms. I got mine that way.

The kit does in fact come with most of the FA parts. In fact, it's a complete rifle kit minus the disconnector and the lower receiver. Even comes with the bayonet, sing, and cleaning kit. It's an awesome deal.

Possessing a FA parts kit isn't a good idea. However, if you don't use the FA parts you should be in the clear. If you have lowers that aren't assembled I wouldn't even bring them inside -- find a dumpster or a friend who doesn't have any ARs. Anyways, the parts you need to avoid are the selector, trigger, hammer, autosear (obviously), and disconnector (not included anyways). Contrary to popular belief, the M16 FA bolt carrier *is* a permitted part. Realistically, the only part that strictly *needs* to change to prevent automatic fire in an AR-15 with M16 parts is the disconnector. Of course removal of the autosear would be a good idea, too. However, the law doesn't see it this way and usage of any of the above parts can land you in a very uncomfortable position. Order up your LPK of choice and use that to assemble the rifle instead of the parts that come with it, or, find the Colt AR-15 FCG and buy one of those to replace the M-16 FCG.

The semiautomatic sear surface on both the M-16 and AR-15 is at the front of the trigger and at the lower shelf (nearest the hammer retention pin). When you pull the trigger, the hammer is released. The rearward action of the bolt causes the hammer to be recocked and caught on the upper hook by the disconnector. When you release the trigger, the disconnector releases the hammer's upper hook. The hammer's lower shelf is caught by the sear surface at the front of the trigger.

During automatic firing, the disconnector is moved out of the way by the selector switch. Simultaneously, the autosear is pushed into position. Instead of the hammer being caught by the disconnector, it's caught by the autosear past the point of the trigger sear. When the bolt moves forward into battery, the trip surface on the bolt carrier contacts the upper surface of the autosear, and releases the hammer from the lower surface of the autosear. As long as the trigger is depressed the rifle will continue to fire. When the trigger is released, the hammer will catch on the trigger sear surface instead of the autosear and firing will stop.

As stated before, most standard AR-15 lower receivers are milled in such a way that the important FA parts won't even fit. The autosear is installed above and slightly forward of the center of the selector switch, in line with the center of the takedown pin. If you look straight down on an AR-15 lower, you'll see directly in front of and under the takedown pin that a shelf prevents the installation of the autosear, and that the area above where the selector switch is installed is much thicker than the M16. M16 receivers have no such shelf and considerably less material back there because of the moving parts that occupy that space instead.

Back In The Day(tm) there were parts that took advantage of that little shelf and allowed for automatic firing. One was the Lightning Link (which uses AR-15 parts and converts the rifle to full-auto-only); the other option is the Drop-in Autosear (DIAS) (which requires the M16 parts kit to function and makes the rifle select-fire). Both of these are NFA items and registered just like machineguns now. Some of them are registered individually, but the vast majority of them were registered as a unit by registering the weapon into which they were installed. But now I digress.

The barrel is a 1:9 chrome lined stainless with 5.56 chamber. It's actually a really decent barrel. It has the Colt stamp on it.

The barrel, though, is in the white and will require final machining before and during assembly. That is, some work will need to be done in order to get it ready to assemble. I'm in the process of writing a how-to for installing the front sight base on the cheap (that is, without buying a new FSB and drilling the pair as a unit). Randall at ar15barrels.com can do this work for you too, and can even parkerize the barrel. You'll want to do that if you want the rifle to look authentic anyways, and his prices are decent. I wanted a project though, and opted to do the work myself. The howto will be posted on gunwiki.net (http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/ProcInstallFrontSightBase) when it's done. There are some basic steps there now, but I need to take some more pictures before I finish writing the article.

383green
01-07-2010, 6:44 PM
Great post, loather! Thanks!

-hanko
01-07-2010, 8:04 PM
If you receive a package with a single FA FCG part in it, you are committing a CA felony! Ask them NOT to ship the FCG!

I'll say it again. Possession of any FA FCG part in CA is a state felony.
Relevant CPC section, please??

thx

-hanko

SP1200
01-07-2010, 10:25 PM
Relevant CPC section, please??

thx

-hanko

I don't have it, but someone does. It's been posted here before.
I used to live in CA and was ordering some AK kits.

bwiese
01-08-2010, 10:32 AM
Read 12200PC. It includes CA definition of MG, creates constructive possession thru ownership/control of separated MG parts buildable into MG, and bans parts expressly for MGs.

SP1200
01-08-2010, 11:18 AM
CA Law prohibiting importation, sale, or possession of FA FCG parts?
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3609053



"12200 PC The term "machinegun" as used in this chapter means any weapon
which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can readily be restored to shoot, automatically
more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The
term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed
and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended,
for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from
which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under
the control of a person. The term also includes any weapon deemed by the federal
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as readily convertible to a machinegun under
Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code. "

I'd not do it (underlined emphases below are supplied by me)



Looks to me like the key FCG parts smell quite bad. $$$$$ of lawyering and you might have some minor wiggle room. The selector switch & disco/sear would be the worst offender. Hammer & trigger alone might be slightly more defendable but certainly not worth it, and the worry could vary with rifle type/architecture.

This also clearly creates CA-level [i.e., in addition to Federal level] 'constructive possession' for a collection of parts that could get into MG status. I'm not even sure that they'd even worry that the receiver had to have "happy holes" drilled in it if the other parts were hanging around.

IMHO, anyone buying 'parts kits' from a vendor should place the order in writing and insist, in writing, that fire control parts (and the usual single hicap magazine accompanying most kits) are removed from the kit prior to shipment.

There's no need for these parts anyway since on AKs, FALs, etc. you replace 'em with US semiauto parts for 922(r) / 27 CFR 478.39 'domestic rifle compliance'. And on ARs you're buying regular US semiauto parts anyway.

SP1200
01-08-2010, 11:21 AM
So like I was saying guys. Destroying the FA parts once already in your possession is not the best idea. The possession starts when that package lands on your door step, or is handed to you!

6172crew
01-08-2010, 11:28 AM
Both of the 3 kits I bought (G3,Fal and AK) were FA kits, why is it a big deal now?:chris:

SP1200
01-08-2010, 1:53 PM
Both of the 3 kits I bought (G3,Fal and AK) were FA kits, why is it a big deal now?:chris:

"12200 PC The term "machinegun" as used in this chapter means any weapon
which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can readily be restored to shoot, automatically
more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The
term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed
and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended,
for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from
which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under
the control of a person. The term also includes any weapon deemed by the federal
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as readily convertible to a machinegun under
Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code. "

umm...

"and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person."

DarkHorse
01-08-2010, 3:34 PM
Both of the 3 kits I bought (G3,Fal and AK) were FA kits, why is it a big deal now?:chris:

If ohsmily were still around, he'd get banned for sure on that one.:D

SJgunguy24
01-08-2010, 6:30 PM
So like I was saying guys. Destroying the FA parts once already in your possession is not the best idea. The possession starts when that package lands on your door step, or is handed to you!

If you don't have a receiver for the FA parts to drop into then what's the difference?

Seesm
01-08-2010, 6:31 PM
I went to see if they had anymore... I have a buddy in idaho that wants to build a m16 (semi) but they appear to be gone off there site now...

bwiese
01-08-2010, 8:07 PM
If you don't have a receiver for the FA parts to drop into then what's the difference?

Like I was quoted above, and in 12200PC: you don't want FA parts even alone and without a receiver - if they're exlusively for FA guns. Typical milsurp FCG parts are.

If you are ordering parts kits, make the order written and specifically request avoidance of FA FCG parts and the magazine. That helps clear things up a bit if the $5/hr warehouse monkey just drops everything in a box regardless of the order.

louscamaro91
01-08-2010, 8:21 PM
So this maybe a dumb question..But what about AR-15 Full auto bolts, Do they name which parts specify you should and should not have? Even though this doesn't make a full auto rifle by itself but neither will a FA FCG you need the FA BCG. A standard bolt with a FA FCG will not go FA.

383green
01-08-2010, 8:23 PM
So this maybe a dumb question..But what about AR-15 Full auto bolts, Do they name which parts specify you should and should not have?

The full auto bolt carrier is OK, and some manufacturers provide those with their semiauto guns. I think that nearly all of the fire control group parts in the lower receiver are different between FA and SA guns, though.

SP1200
01-08-2010, 9:25 PM
If you don't have a receiver for the FA parts to drop into then what's the difference?

Wow. Good point there!

"and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. "

So I guess you can have the FA parts, but not the FA receiver! Holly ****!
So I guess destroying the FA parts before getting your receiver would work.

Lets take this question a step further. Say you have AK FA FCG and an AK bent receiver WITH out the evil third hole, would that constitute MG possession?

383green
01-08-2010, 10:07 PM
Reading 12200PC carefully:

12200 PC The term "machinegun" as used in this chapter means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can readily be restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. The term also includes any weapon deemed by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as readily convertible to a machinegun under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code.

I see the following things which are considered machineguns:


any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can readily be restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger

the frame or receiver of any such weapon

any part designed and intended solely and exclusively [...] for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun

combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun

any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person

any weapon deemed by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as readily convertible to a machinegun under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code


It has been asserted in this thread that even a single FA FCG part is restricted by this law, but I don't fully understand how that follows from 12200PC yet.

Would a single FA sear (for example), all by itself, fit under #3 above? In other words, would it be considered a part intended solely and exclusively for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun? This wording implies to me that it would apply to a part which was designed specifically for converting a SA weapon into a FA one (such as any component of a lightning link or DIAS), as opposed to an original FA part that was intended for original manufacture of a FA weapon.

I think that the same answer would apply to #4, above, and that the combination of #3 and #4 was intended to outlaw something like a DIAS, or any piece of a DIAS assembly, whether assembled or not. It's not clear to me that either of them were necessarily intended to apply to original FA FCG parts, though.

Now, what about #5? If a person had a stripped receiver without the auto sear hole, and a parts kit as pictured above, would this be considered a combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled? In other words, can it be considered "assembly" if drilling and milling of the receiver are required to get the FA FCG parts to fit? Based on normal use of the word "assemble" I would tend to not think so, but I'm not aware of the semantics of the word "assemble" when used in legal text related to firearms.

I'd appreciate any well-informed clarification of this. I tend to agree with the statement that having even one of the FA FCG parts would be a Bad Idea in CA just based on gut feeling, but it's not entirely clear to me that 12200PC applies to such a parts kit without simultaneous possession/control of a receiver which can accept the parts without further machining.

SP1200
01-08-2010, 11:13 PM
but it's not entirely clear to me that 12200PC applies to such a parts kit without simultaneous possession/control of a receiver which can accept the parts without further machining.

Until now I believed that a single FA part such as a single m16 selector was a violation of PC 12200, but reading it over and over, I would have to conclude that having the FA FCG and a non milled standard AR15 receiver would not meet the requirements of a MG. That is with out machining.

Can Bill of Gene get in on this!?

I'm sure the local LEO would surly charge you with possession of an MG just for simply having the parts, but in reality you would have to have a standard AR15 receiver set up on a mill in your garage with FA FCG next to it, or have a already milled receiver in possession.

B Strong
01-09-2010, 7:37 AM
It's legal to own the parts, you just can't assemble them in a semi-auto lower.

If you do assemble a semi lower with the original full-auto parts, minus the safety sear, you're at risk for a problem.

Edit:

I see DIAS mentioned above.

After 11-1-81, any AR DIAS manufactured after that date had to be registered as an NFA weapon or device. You still see the ads here and there for "pre-81" DIAS, but it's all nonsense and a potential sting, imo.

Possession of a DIAS by itself without any lower could potentially result in a charge under federal or state law, depending.

I've never heard of a case involving a single part for a DIAS (trip, base, etc) but who knows, and why risk it?

I also see that Bill advised against having the parts, which is good advice, even with a post - Iggy BOF - It's no strech of the imagination to see somebody being prosecuted for possession of what they'd term a "Conversion Kit" under state law.

freakshow10mm
01-09-2010, 9:00 AM
It is entirely too easy to convert a semi auto lower into full auto by swapping out parts of the FCG. I will be putting together a photo and short video to demonstrate how easy it is to get yourself in serious trouble. My company is a class 2 SOT, so it's legal for me to make machine guns at will.

Those that have 9mm uppers and .22 rimfire uppers are especially at risk since those are more easily converted than a 5.56 or other caliber, due in part to the BCG design.

This isn't going to be a "do this and go have some fun quietly" it's to illustrate how a simple "oops" can put you in hot water without mercy from the legal authorities. I say it time and time again, not to pontificate, but guys the ATF seriously does not mess around with this stuff. You may play cute games, twist words, etc but when it comes down to it, even though you may catch a judge on a good day the sheer expense of taking on the ATF will ruin the average gun owner along with the stress.

hollowpoint67
03-03-2010, 6:32 PM
I've got one of these kits. A bunch of them came back from somewhere (probably Israel) and were sold through Century Arms. I got mine that way.

The kit does in fact come with most of the FA parts. In fact, it's a complete rifle kit minus the disconnector and the lower receiver. Even comes with the bayonet, sing, and cleaning kit. It's an awesome deal.

Possessing a FA parts kit isn't a good idea. However, if you don't use the FA parts you should be in the clear. If you have lowers that aren't assembled I wouldn't even bring them inside -- find a dumpster or a friend who doesn't have any ARs. Anyways, the parts you need to avoid are the selector, trigger, hammer, autosear (obviously), and disconnector (not included anyways). Contrary to popular belief, the M16 FA bolt carrier *is* a permitted part. Realistically, the only part that strictly *needs* to change to prevent automatic fire in an AR-15 with M16 parts is the disconnector. Of course removal of the autosear would be a good idea, too. However, the law doesn't see it this way and usage of any of the above parts can land you in a very uncomfortable position. Order up your LPK of choice and use that to assemble the rifle instead of the parts that come with it, or, find the Colt AR-15 FCG and buy one of those to replace the M-16 FCG.

The semiautomatic sear surface on both the M-16 and AR-15 is at the front of the trigger and at the lower shelf (nearest the hammer retention pin). When you pull the trigger, the hammer is released. The rearward action of the bolt causes the hammer to be recocked and caught on the upper hook by the disconnector. When you release the trigger, the disconnector releases the hammer's upper hook. The hammer's lower shelf is caught by the sear surface at the front of the trigger.

During automatic firing, the disconnector is moved out of the way by the selector switch. Simultaneously, the autosear is pushed into position. Instead of the hammer being caught by the disconnector, it's caught by the autosear past the point of the trigger sear. When the bolt moves forward into battery, the trip surface on the bolt carrier contacts the upper surface of the autosear, and releases the hammer from the lower surface of the autosear. As long as the trigger is depressed the rifle will continue to fire. When the trigger is released, the hammer will catch on the trigger sear surface instead of the autosear and firing will stop.

As stated before, most standard AR-15 lower receivers are milled in such a way that the important FA parts won't even fit. The autosear is installed above and slightly forward of the center of the selector switch, in line with the center of the takedown pin. If you look straight down on an AR-15 lower, you'll see directly in front of and under the takedown pin that a shelf prevents the installation of the autosear, and that the area above where the selector switch is installed is much thicker than the M16. M16 receivers have no such shelf and considerably less material back there because of the moving parts that occupy that space instead.

Back In The Day(tm) there were parts that took advantage of that little shelf and allowed for automatic firing. One was the Lightning Link (which uses AR-15 parts and converts the rifle to full-auto-only); the other option is the Drop-in Autosear (DIAS) (which requires the M16 parts kit to function and makes the rifle select-fire). Both of these are NFA items and registered just like machineguns now. Some of them are registered individually, but the vast majority of them were registered as a unit by registering the weapon into which they were installed. But now I digress.

The barrel is a 1:9 chrome lined stainless with 5.56 chamber. It's actually a really decent barrel. It has the Colt stamp on it.

The barrel, though, is in the white and will require final machining before and during assembly. That is, some work will need to be done in order to get it ready to assemble. I'm in the process of writing a how-to for installing the front sight base on the cheap (that is, without buying a new FSB and drilling the pair as a unit). Randall at ar15barrels.com can do this work for you too, and can even parkerize the barrel. You'll want to do that if you want the rifle to look authentic anyways, and his prices are decent. I wanted a project though, and opted to do the work myself. The howto will be posted on gunwiki.net (http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/ProcInstallFrontSightBase) when it's done. There are some basic steps there now, but I need to take some more pictures before I finish writing the article.

I know im necro posting, BUT: how can one tell if its actually chambered for 5.56?

and while it may be a felony to posses FA parts, how are you going to get caught with them? its not like im going to make it into a necklace and wear it daily, whats the harm in just tossing it asap?

JDay
03-03-2010, 6:49 PM
I think what they're getting at with that is to have something that LOOKS LIKE the A1. Notice what you see there. It's a 20" barrel, carry handle upper receiver, original style handguards, and a fixed stock. Add a lower receiver and you have a perfect clone of the original AR15 circa 1950's, straight off of Eugene Stoner's design.

What you're seeing is the words M16 and thinking select fire, but what they mean to say is retro/original style AR. You don't see many of those these days as new builds, so what they're doing is selling the nostalgic look and about the only concise way to do that is to say M16A1. Original 1957 AR15 isn't as recognizable, and people might actually wonder if it was C&R. No way would they sell NFA components at that price--the price alone tells you what's really up. (Unless somehow the '86 ban just got repealed and we don't know it yet, which would be like winning the lottery.)

I was under the impression that the original M16/AR15 did not have a forward assist. See this 1973 AR-15.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/1973_Colt_AR15_A1.jpg

1973 Colt AR-15 SP1 rifle with A1 style upper receiver, no forward assist and original Colt 20 round box magazine

CSACANNONEER
03-03-2010, 6:53 PM
I know im necro posting, BUT: how can one tell if its actually chambered for 5.56?

and while it may be a felony to posses FA parts, how are you going to get caught with them? its not like im going to make it into a necklace and wear it daily, whats the harm in just tossing it asap?

Call and ask about the chambering. Cope's has GREAT customer service.


It is not a felony to posses FA parts! It can be if, you have a firearm that they could be used in. But, if you do not own a AR lower or rifle, you can own all the M16 FA parts that you want to.

hollowpoint67
03-03-2010, 6:55 PM
the SP1s and early models were w.o the forward assist, M16A1 included it.

6172crew
03-03-2010, 7:52 PM
If the parts are marked with a "C" I will trade you semi-auto parts for them.

I own a NFA M16.