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View Full Version : Used gun mandatory lock law?


racinginthestreets
01-06-2010, 9:44 PM
I just picked up a recent purchase (Sig P226 with box and factory lock) from Ade's Gun Shop in Orange Co. which handled the DROS, and before I could leave with my gun I was forced to buy a lock from Ade's. The shop rep told me that the law on used guns is a Cal approved lock MUST be used and purchased within 30 days. I told Ade's that every other gun I bought I filled out an affidavit of ownership of home safe to get the guns released. I bought the lock begrudgingly, even though the gun case had a lock in it, and I called DOJ to verify this info. DOJ informed me that I WAS RIGHT! If you have a safe at home you fill out the form. Also, the Federal law requires a lock be on the case, ANY LOCK, before you leave the shop. Therefore, Ade's should have known this, and even when I called Ade's and informed them of this I was told "well, we are going by what DOJ told us". This is a pretty LAME excuse by gun shop. One would think the gun shop would know the law. The DOJ rep told me that Ade's is under NEW ownership, and "they are confused over there". So after I wasted $11 for a cheap lock that I will likely throw away I was a little pissed that Ade's held my gun hostage until I bought their lock. I don't mind supporting my local gun shops, but I'd rather have bought a box a 9mm rather than being forced to buy something I'm not going to use, especially when I WAS RIGHT, and still had to waste money to pick up my gun. BUYER BEWARE! Ade's is NOT the place to DROS.

psssniper
01-06-2010, 9:46 PM
:popcorn:

cdtx2001
01-06-2010, 10:05 PM
Take the lock back tomorrow and return it.

lorax3
01-06-2010, 10:18 PM
So there are two issues here. There is both a federal and state regulation that say a lock is to be provided with a handgun. The state requirement is satisfied by the CA Safe affidavit, however the BATFE has yet to officially accept the CA form to satisfy the federal law. More can be read in this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=1495010#post1495010) and toward the bottom of the wiki page (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California).

The DOJ will probably agree with you as they deal primarily with California law and the safe affidavit is a state form.

There are quite a few threads about this, but am too lazy to link as I do not feel like searching (http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=018149931542195181678:pzxbzjzh1zk). :)

ETD1010
01-06-2010, 11:05 PM
I think they are referencing the FEDERAL law which states that all guns must be accompanied by a lock. Most new guns (if not ALL at this point) have one included. it was the DOJ that required a lock purchased (or a receipt shown). not sure if the federal law required a receipt though.

djbooya
01-07-2010, 12:01 AM
... So after I wasted $11 for a cheap lock that I will likely throw away I was a little pissed that Ade's held my gun hostage until I bought their lock. ...

I know people don't like to buy locks, but why does everyone complain when they can return it? Unless the gun shop has something in writing that says brand new locks cannot be returned, why not just get your money back after you bring the gun to your car. There's NO law that says after you leave the store you can't come back inside and return the lock.

Unit74
01-07-2010, 1:27 PM
When I PPTed from Ades, they told me I could sell them back the lock for pennies on the dollar. And the lock I bought was clearly a used "turn in" lock on my last PPT.

I did this after being told DOJ doesn't care if I have a safe. They only care that I walk out with a lock. And the funny part of it all was that there WAS a lock inside the box that the seller gave to me. It was a gun-branded lock which was identical to the one Ade's MADE me buy.

Their excuse.... they have to show DOJ that I had a lock.

Now, I don't know who is right or wrong. But, I do think that something is wrong here. I'm not an expert but I have PPTed 4 handguns at various OC shops recently and Ades was the only one who MADE me buy their lock before I walked out the front door. I have one in PPT right now at Stockade and there IS a lock in the box so we will see what they do.

I think it's a shell game of padding their PPT's to make money though. But who knows....

bohoki
01-07-2010, 2:48 PM
they are often wrong what they do is want to simplify it for themselves


but there is a. california requires all firearm purchases to include a california approved lock or purchaser must have a california approved safe

and b. the aft requires all handguns to be accompanied with a "lock"

so if you have a ca approved safe than that part satifys california and the feeble factory lock covers the fed but they cant think that complex

(like they cant chew bubblegun and walk at the same time without choking)


its almost like they want to be obtusely ignorant
and no matter what you do they wont accept that they are wrong

JAGGUY
01-07-2010, 3:06 PM
Annie's Get Your Gun in Corona gives you a new lock with every purchase. If I go somewhere else I make out a receipt and take a lock with me. As long as "purchased" within 30 days you should be good to go.

FortCourageArmory
01-07-2010, 3:18 PM
We give them away for free. No (or low) cost for us and zero hassle for our customers.

kf6tac
01-07-2010, 3:41 PM
For those in the Fremont (East Bay) area, Anthony at UG Imports kindly pointed out to me that the Fremont Police Department gives out new gun locks on request, no questions asked.

MasterYong
01-07-2010, 4:02 PM
Take the lock back tomorrow and return it.

LOL that's what Big 5 told my buddy to do. He said: "here, just buy this POS lock. Walk out to your car. Turn around. Walk back inside. Return it for a full refund. Problem solved- all we need is a copy of a receipt that says you bought one."

Thought that was... interesting...

jamesob
01-07-2010, 4:49 PM
i always buy from walmart and return the next day.

racinginthestreets
01-07-2010, 11:16 PM
LOL that's what Big 5 told my buddy to do. He said: "here, just buy this POS lock. Walk out to your car. Turn around. Walk back inside. Return it for a full refund. Problem solved- all we need is a copy of a receipt that says you bought one."

Thought that was... interesting...

I would have done this and I even asked if I could run to Walmart, but Ade's told me the lock MUST be a Cal approved lock and only certain locks qualify. Sounds like a scam to me.

racinginthestreets
01-07-2010, 11:21 PM
We give them away for free. No (or low) cost for us and zero hassle for our customers.

MAD PROPS! TO FORTCOURAGE ARMORY
This is a gun shop that knows how to treat a customer/gun owner.

IrishPirate
01-07-2010, 11:21 PM
I just picked up a recent purchase (Sig P226 with box and factory lock) from Ade's Gun Shop in Orange Co. which handled the DROS, and before I could leave with my gun I was forced to buy a lock from Ade's. The shop rep told me that the law on used guns is a Cal approved lock MUST be used and purchased within 30 days. I told Ade's that every other gun I bought I filled out an affidavit of ownership of home safe to get the guns released. I bought the lock begrudgingly, even though the gun case had a lock in it, and I called DOJ to verify this info. DOJ informed me that I WAS RIGHT! If you have a safe at home you fill out the form. Also, the Federal law requires a lock be on the case, ANY LOCK, before you leave the shop. Therefore, Ade's should have known this, and even when I called Ade's and informed them of this I was told "well, we are going by what DOJ told us". This is a pretty LAME excuse by gun shop. One would think the gun shop would know the law. The DOJ rep told me that Ade's is under NEW ownership, and "they are confused over there". So after I wasted $11 for a cheap lock that I will likely throw away I was a little pissed that Ade's held my gun hostage until I bought their lock. I don't mind supporting my local gun shops, but I'd rather have bought a box a 9mm rather than being forced to buy something I'm not going to use, especially when I WAS RIGHT, and still had to waste money to pick up my gun. BUYER BEWARE! Ade's is NOT the place to DROS.

(bold)this is where you went wrong. never assume they know anything....they usually dont. If the gun came with a lock, then you bought a lock when you bought the gun. I'd go back, make the case and tell them you want your money back in return for your continued patronage.

vantec08
01-08-2010, 9:04 AM
really, racing? I dont find anything that specifies state approval of specific locks. interesting.

smt77
01-08-2010, 1:41 PM
I would have done this and I even asked if I could run to Walmart, but Ade's told me the lock MUST be a Cal approved lock and only certain locks qualify. Sounds like a scam to me.

It's no scam. The state does have certain requirements and the lock you buy/are provided must be approved by the State of California. The packaging on the lock or the paperwork that comes with it will say something to the effect of "This is a California-approved firearms safety device that meets the requirements of California Penal Code Section 12088 and the regulations issued thereunder."

Look Here: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12087.php

Also look here: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist.php

Wal-Mart DOES sell locks that comply with this. Sounds like the salesman might have ought to have said "Sure, go do that, but make sure it says that it is California approved".

Dirtbiker
01-08-2010, 1:56 PM
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e196/harley15502002/crap.jpg

racinginthestreets
01-08-2010, 3:16 PM
really, racing? I dont find anything that specifies state approval of specific locks. interesting.

My point exactly! I did not find anything that specifies a particular type of lock for a used gun is required. Only for a new gun is an approved lock required according to the DOJ. Next time I'm going to bring the applicable statute with me.

Physical Graffiti
01-10-2010, 12:34 AM
Howdy folks, Steve here at Ade's to clear a few things up.

The BATFE cited us big $$$ for only using safe affidavits for PPT handgun purchases, because it didn't meet the federal requirement for a lock to be included with the handgun. BATFE said they wanted some kind of proof as to there being a lock with the gun, so to save us from further citations, we decided make sure all PPT handguns have some kind of lock receipt, to cover our butts. I'm sorry if that causes an inconvenience, but please appreciate the level of scrutiny we are forced to work under.

I'm sure racerunner misunderstood what we say about it needing to be a CA Approved lock. I tell my customers to get their locks from Wal-Mart rather regularly, and we will refund locks as well.

We apologize for the aggravation.

Best Regards,
Steve

DedEye
01-10-2010, 12:56 AM
Thank you for your post Steve.

If a gun shop will accept the return of a gun lock, accepts the receipt of a recent gun lock purchase, or sells the lock for $.01 (all of which I have encountered), what is there to complain about?

Oldbud
01-10-2010, 3:35 AM
.... BATFE said they wanted some kind of proof as to there being a lock with the gun, so to save us from further citations, we decided make sure all PPT handguns have some kind of lock receipt, ......In another thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=251809) I showed where the PC only states for a PPT that a firearm (handgun) only needs to "include or be accompanied by a firearms safety device" (12088.1. (a)) ,

and *if* there was no lock included or accompanying the gun, then the buyer could still do the transfer, if he/she purchases an approved safety device no more than 30 days prior AND presents the approved safety device AND presents an original receipt to the firearms dealer(PC 122088.1 (e)1,2,3)

The BATF is satisfied that the FFL enters the correct serial # onto the form, as well as other descriptors...
then why can't they accept a notation on the form that a lock is included or accompanies the handgun?

Unit74
01-10-2010, 4:36 AM
Howdy folks, Steve here at Ade's to clear a few things up.


I tell my customers to get their locks from Wal-Mart rather regularly, and we will refund locks as well.

We apologize for the aggravation.

Best Regards,
Steve

I beg to differ.... I was told I could sell the lock back to the store for $2-$5. I was fairly insulted since it was just sold to me at a healthy $11 and the ink was still wet on the receipt.

I know you guys are just trying to keep your arse outa hot water, but the last two guns I PPTed had locks included in the guns case from the seller. These locks were also in the 10 DROS wait and in the box when I affirmed and received the weapon. Yet I was still mandated to buy your locks to leave the store. Even you guys agreed this was stupid but you really gave me no alternative.

Why could you not annotate with the DROS paperwork that a lock was received with the gun? Make a receipt indicating buyer provided own lock and be done with it. To me it looks like a cash cow with the excuse of BATF/DOJ to justify it.

You guys are a good shop but it just seems shady the way it plays out.

halifax
01-10-2010, 5:46 AM
Howdy folks, Steve here at Ade's to clear a few things up.

The BATFE cited us big $$$ for only using safe affidavits for PPT handgun purchases, because it didn't meet the federal requirement for a lock to be included with the handgun. BATFE said they wanted some kind of proof as to there being a lock with the gun, so to save us from further citations, we decided make sure all PPT handguns have some kind of lock receipt, to cover our butts. I'm sorry if that causes an inconvenience, but please appreciate the level of scrutiny we are forced to work under.

I'm sure racerunner misunderstood what we say about it needing to be a CA Approved lock. I tell my customers to get their locks from Wal-Mart rather regularly, and we will refund locks as well.

We apologize for the aggravation.

Best Regards,
Steve

The instructions for ATF Form 4473 Line 30c says "This box is for the FFL's use in recording any information he or she finds necessary to conduct business". If I record the make and model of the lock provided with the handgun, am I not providing enough proof that a lock was provided? The ATF requires the dealer to provide the locking device NOT provide a receipt as proof of a purchase (although that would work, I guess). After all, when I sign the 4473, I am "certify[ing] that my answers to Sections B and D are true, correct, and complete". If they can't believe me on this one, why would they believe any of the other information I swore was "true, correct, and complete"?

Steve G
01-10-2010, 7:21 AM
We give them away for free. No (or low) cost for us and zero hassle for our customers.


Ft. Courage is one of the last "good guys" out there! I will make an effort to shop there even if the drive is a good 30-45 mins! :)

nitrofc
01-10-2010, 8:36 AM
MAD PROPS! TO FORTCOURAGE ARMORY
This is a gun shop that knows how to treat a customer/gun owner.

I 100% agree with that statement!!!

curtisfong
01-10-2010, 9:10 AM
I 100% agree with that statement!!!

I feel fortunate Ft. Courage is my local FFL. Tim, you rock.

Oldbud
01-10-2010, 10:49 AM
......The ATF requires the dealer to provide the locking device NOT provide a receipt as proof of a purchase (although that would work, I guess). .....I don't read where the dealer must provide the lock, it, (PC 12088.1. (a)), only states the locking device must be included or accompany the gun with no mention of the source (i.e. manufacturer, dealer, seller or buyer)


After all, when I sign the 4473, I am "certify[ing] that my answers to Sections B and D are true, correct, and complete". If they can't believe me on this one, why would they believe any of the other information I swore was "true, correct, and complete"?Exactly! Having the FFL noting the existence of the locking device should be the "proof" needed to satisfy compliance.

halifax
01-10-2010, 11:06 AM
I don't read where the dealer must provide the lock, it, (PC 12088.1. (a)), only states the locking device must be included or accompany the gun with no mention of the source (i.e. manufacturer, dealer, seller or buyer)

Isn't (PC 12088.1. (a)) a CA cite?

This is the federal code:

18 U.S.C. 922(z) Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device.— (1) In general.— Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921 (a)(34)) for that handgun.

ETA: The way I read this is that the dealer can note any CA approved lock (free, paid for, or provided by the seller or buyer) into line 30c to satisfy the feds and note a safe affidavit on the DROS to satisfy CA or the Make/Model of a FSD if supplied under CA requirements.

racinginthestreets
01-10-2010, 11:43 PM
I beg to differ.... I was told I could sell the lock back to the store for $2-$5. I was fairly insulted since it was just sold to me at a healthy $11 and the ink was still wet on the receipt.

I know you guys are just trying to keep your arse outa hot water, but the last two guns I PPTed had locks included in the guns case from the seller. These locks were also in the 10 DROS wait and in the box when I affirmed and received the weapon. Yet I was still mandated to buy your locks to leave the store. Even you guys agreed this was stupid but you really gave me no alternative.

Why could you not annotate with the DROS paperwork that a lock was received with the gun? Make a receipt indicating buyer provided own lock and be done with it. To me it looks like a cash cow with the excuse of BATF/DOJ to justify it.

You guys are a good shop but it just seems shady the way it plays out.

I agree with Unit74. I was told the same thing. Also, after speaking with ATF, DOJ and Orange Co. PD I'm convinced the RULE being enforced at this gun shop is Wrong. All agency representatives stated the safe affidavit should have been offered if a customer has a home safe as this will confirm a safe place to store the gun, and the lock requirement to leave the shop is any lock that will fit on the gun case. I know I'm beating this into the ground but If I can't rely on a gun shop to know the proper requirements for a used gun purchase then the only recourse we have, as consumers, is to expose these gun shops and DROS elsewhere until they can get it right.