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Alan Halcon
01-06-2010, 4:19 PM
Okay, my search fu is way off and I can't seem to connect the dots. I've asked two LEO friends and they're not sure.

If I have a california CCW can I open carry loaded in California? How about if I have a Utah or Florida CCW can I open carry in the states they have reciprocity with?

thanks
Alan

GuyW
01-06-2010, 4:34 PM
If I have a california CCW can I open carry loaded in California?

NO!




How about if I have a Utah or Florida CCW can I open carry in the states they have reciprocity with?


Research their laws...
.

Shane916
01-06-2010, 4:39 PM
Not sure about the other states...but I assure you that CA's CCW literally means CCW.

Liberty1
01-06-2010, 4:40 PM
If I have a california CCW can I open carry loaded in California?

There is a good argument for 'Yes'. But that is a question for later down the road. So I'd recommend not doing so at this time. So far one member who did that had his license revoked. He was not in a position to challenge the action at that time.





How about if I have a Utah or Florida CCW can I open carry in the states they have reciprocity with?

thanks
Alan

Depends on the state laws in which you are carrying.

What state do you want to talk about?

gotgunz
01-06-2010, 4:47 PM
Am I missing something?

If you have a California CCW why would you want to carry exposed?

Alan Halcon
01-06-2010, 4:49 PM
Thank you, gang. It was just a curious question.

As for states with reciprocity to Utah and Florida, it was just a question...

thanks
Alan

Alan Halcon
01-06-2010, 4:56 PM
gotgunz, I knew someone would ask that.

I have a LEO friend who I have started doing ride alongs with. And, until the other officers get to know me, I don't want to be the guy to surprise anyone... especially since it is the night shift. And, as we know, the freaks come out at night. I'm not trying to play cop, but I'm also trying to check six.

thanks
Alan

Cokebottle
01-06-2010, 5:09 PM
Thank you, gang. It was just a curious question.

As for states with reciprocity to Utah and Florida, it was just a question...
Generally CCW means CC. SOME states have open-carry laws, but they don't require a CCW to do so... Arizona is one. WRT LOC, every state is different.

In California, CCW means CCW, but as with AZ, there are unincorporated areas of some counties where LOC is legal... but the general answer, as given above, is "no", regardless of whether you have a CCW or not.

In general, states with reciprosity apply the same rules to both resident and non-resident holders, but there are some exceptions, as well as some reciprosity exceptions (such as Florida, Colorado, and other states that only recognize CCW from residents of the issuing state).
Sadly, Colorado has no reciprosity with CA, and they don't issue non-resident, so even though you may obtain a Utah or Florida permit... even with a CA permit, there is no legal way for a CA resident to CCW in Colorado.

kcbrown
01-06-2010, 5:37 PM
California has so many laws that you're probably better off assuming that if you don't know that it's legal, then it's probably illegal... :mad:

In fact, I would be mildly surprised if there weren't a law encoding that very principle. :rolleyes:

s-s
01-06-2010, 5:42 PM
12050 (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12050.php)

12031 (http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php)

mej16489
01-06-2010, 5:50 PM
Okay, my search fu is way off and I can't seem to connect the dots. I've asked two LEO friends and they're not sure.

If I have a california CCW can I open carry loaded in California?
NO!


Incorrect, Unless there is something printed on the license to the effect of 'License not valid if firearm is not concealed' then there is no obligation to conceal. Therefore a CCW license, typically, has zero bearing on the Open aspect of Loaded Open Carry(LOC)

CA PC 12031 is the statute which dictates when a firearm may not be loaded. There is an exemption for anyone licensed pursuant to PC 12050 (CCW License). Therefore there is an explicit exemption for Loaded carry.

A + B = C
CCW License + Open Carry = Loaded Open Carry

However, if you get 'caught' you will likely get your license pulled. Therefore, wait to use a CCW license as a Loaded exemption until after we have Shall Issue CCW.

GuyW
01-06-2010, 6:00 PM
^^^^^I guess I'm not in the mood to argue tonight^^^^

Readers, follow that advice at your own peril....

.

gotgunz
01-06-2010, 6:03 PM
gotgunz, I knew someone would ask that.

I have a LEO friend who I have started doing ride alongs with. And, until the other officers get to know me, I don't want to be the guy to surprise anyone... especially since it is the night shift. And, as we know, the freaks come out at night. I'm not trying to play cop, but I'm also trying to check six.

thanks
Alan

Ummmm? Why not just tell him you are carrying concealed?

Who would you be worried about surprising if it is concealed... I am not seeing this.

mej16489
01-06-2010, 6:18 PM
^^^^^I guess I'm not in the mood to argue tonight^^^^

Readers, follow that advice at your own peril....



Firstly, I said it was currently a bad idea...
Secondly, argue with Gene he's supported my position on several occasions in these forums. One example is from here:

Simply having a license exempts you from the GFSZ and nowhere does it say that the firearm has to be concealed.
-Gene

Alan Halcon
01-06-2010, 6:19 PM
gotgunz, Its not for his benifit, rather the benifit of the other leos who don't know me; and for me. I'm not on the force nor do I have the liberty of sitting in on briefs and or shaking hands with everyone.

At times I am asked to hang back and wait while they make safe. Well, during that time if another unit rolls up and I'm hanging without my driver, because he's with another group clearing, I want to look like I belong. I don't want to be confused as a perp with a gun they can ask me all the questions they want after. I'll be happy to answer.

I don't wear a uniform. And, If I have to draw, I don't want it to be a surprise, if the situation is tense.

I don't feel it's as black and white as you may think it is... I wish it was.

Alan

CitaDeL
01-06-2010, 6:30 PM
There is a good argument for 'Yes'. But that is a question for later down the road. So I'd recomment not doing so at this time. So far one member who did that had his license revoked. He was not in a position to challenge the action at that time.

^ This.


Incorrect, Unless there is something printed on the license to the effect of 'License not valid if firearm is not concealed' then there is no obligation to conceal. Therefore a CCW license, typically, has zero bearing on the Open aspect of Loaded Open Carry(LOC)

CA PC 12031 is the statute which dictates when a firearm may not be loaded. There is an exemption for anyone licensed pursuant to PC 12050 (CCW License). Therefore there is an explicit exemption for Loaded carry.

A + B = C
CCW License + Open Carry = Loaded Open Carry

However, if you get 'caught' you will likely get your license pulled. Therefore, wait to use a CCW license as a Loaded exemption until after we have Shall Issue CCW.

^ And most of this.

If you look at 12050, it is simply a license to carry that comes in two forms. One allows Concealment, the other Loaded and Exposed carry in incorporated areas. The rest of the penal code does not make a distinction between the two, so they are statutorily interchangable, giving blanket exemption from being procecuted for 626.9, 12031 et al; so "CCW" unless the license is marked with the 'restriction requiring concealment' is a license to LOC.

YMMV

hoffmang
01-06-2010, 9:29 PM
The technical legal answer to OP is a 12050 license immunizes you from the restriction on loaded when OC. However, in the current legal regime you will get your permit yanked so don't do it.

-Gene

Gray Peterson
01-06-2010, 10:22 PM
Sadly, Colorado has no reciprosity with CA, and they don't issue non-resident, so even though you may obtain a Utah or Florida permit... even with a CA permit, there is no legal way for a CA resident to CCW in Colorado.

There should be forthcoming news soon that deals with the Colorado issue. Count on it.

As for the specific situation involving LOC with PC12050 license, DO NOT DO IT.

1) There is a lot of argument back and forth between gun owners, cops, and even lawyers (this is even judges) if it's even legal to do LOC with CCW. Both sides have their valid arguments for both sides but the overwhelming consensus among the cops out there is that it's unlawful. Even if LOC with CCW was legal, as the old saying goes, you may beat the wrap (and that's a big maybe given the putrid state of the judiciary system against gun owners, see Theseus for a great example), but you definitely will not beat the ride....

2) Even if you beat the wrap, your license will be revoked, and you will NEVER be able to get a CCW in California ever again from any sheriff or police chief because they'll find out when they do a new background check and find out about your previous CCW being revoked.

The consequences are too high, for little to no upside. Btw, the person who had his CCW revoked for OC was actually for UOC, and that was up in Shasta County (His online handle is ConditionThree). If you have a CCW, DO NOT OC IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM OR ELSE YOUR LICENSE WILL BE REVOKED!

pullnshoot25
01-06-2010, 11:35 PM
Am I missing something?

If you have a California CCW why would you want to carry exposed?

That is a very, very silly question.

Meplat
01-07-2010, 1:43 AM
I used to do ride alongs with a buddy I grew up with. He didn't want me to carry for just that reason, being mistaken for a perp by other officers. But he did show me how to unlock the shotgun mount in case I had to cover his *** and it was just us.


gotgunz, Its not for his benifit, rather the benifit of the other leos who don't know me; and for me. I'm not on the force nor do I have the liberty of sitting in on briefs and or shaking hands with everyone.

At times I am asked to hang back and wait while they make safe. Well, during that time if another unit rolls up and I'm hanging without my driver, because he's with another group clearing, I want to look like I belong. I don't want to be confused as a perp with a gun they can ask me all the questions they want after. I'll be happy to answer.

I don't wear a uniform. And, If I have to draw, I don't want it to be a surprise, if the situation is tense.

I don't feel it's as black and white as you may think it is... I wish it was.

Alan

Alan Halcon
01-07-2010, 7:46 AM
Meplat, yep he showed me the release, as well. He also has an AR-15 ready to roll that's on the same release.

Alan

SikDMAX
01-07-2010, 8:00 AM
So stop pretending to be a mall ninja, you'll end up dead.

Glock22Fan
01-07-2010, 8:12 AM
I used to do ride alongs with a buddy I grew up with. He didn't want me to carry for just that reason, being mistaken for a perp by other officers. But he did show me how to unlock the shotgun mount in case I had to cover his *** and it was just us.

I've done many ridealongs. I've had much the same experiences. I am not sure that they'd be happy with the possible complications/liabilities of you being armed, but I must admit that my LEO's have also, from time to time, made sure I could open the shotgun mount.

gotgunz
01-07-2010, 1:43 PM
As far as not wanting to be mistaken for a perp by other LEO... I don't buy it. I am almost certain that if you're doing a ride along (and yes I did many of these when going through the academy) the other shift officers already know you are in a unit... with todays technology and such they probably even know what you look like without having ever seen your face. If you are outside the car on a call carrying concealed and they come up behind you how could they mistake you for a perp with a gun if it is concealed? I agree with others that you are risking having your ccw yanked if you carry exposed regardless of the reasons why.

So stop pretending to be a mall ninja, you'll end up dead.
This is what comes to mind.

That is a very, very silly question.

And your response was exactly what I expected from you.

Alan Halcon
01-07-2010, 1:46 PM
SikDMax, First of all, no one is trying to play mall ninja... at all.

Second, There is a very specific reason for the ride along, not just some sort of thrill rush. It is work related.

Third, I've already been told by one of my other buddies who did a ride along, It was highly suggested by his LEO assignment he pack considering the areas they were assigned to.

I'm trying to cover my six is all.

Perhaps I shouldn't do this. I don't want to be accused of being a mall ninja. Why don't you give me an address, so I can invoice you for the work I'll miss out on. Believe me, I'd much rather sit at home and collect a check.

Alan

IrishPirate
01-07-2010, 1:58 PM
At times I am asked to hang back and wait while they make safe. Well, during that time if another unit rolls up and I'm hanging without my driver, because he's with another group clearing, I want to look like I belong. I don't want to be confused as a perp with a gun they can ask me all the questions they want after. I'll be happy to answer.

I don't wear a uniform. And, If I have to draw, I don't want it to be a surprise, if the situation is tense.

I don't feel it's as black and white as you may think it is... I wish it was.

Alan

If you're worried about other cops, keep it concealed, and DONT LOOK SUSPICIOUS! If you're legally licensed to carry concealed you shouldn't worry about it. They'll ask you what's up and you'll tell them you're waiting for officer so-and-so to do your ride along, and you'll show your CCW card if they ask for it. if it's concealed, THEY SHOULDN'T NOTICE IT. Then, when your buddy is out and with you, carry it open. If you're right next to a cop who told you it's ok to LOC while you're riding with him....that's as good of immunity as you can ask for.

If your in the precinct or whatever waiting for your buddy ask for a visitor badge or something that distinguishes you so that other cops know you're not a threat....or, leave your gun in his patrol car until you guys go out. I know some LEA make people who ride along wear either a vest or specific shirt that designates them as a ride along so they don't get mistaken by other cops for perps if SHTF. Hell, I'd have my own shirt made if would save me from a bullet in the @$$!!!!! There's a hundred different ways to deal with the other cops who are the only real "problem", and IMHO, they aren't much of a problem at all. You're licensed, after a short time, they'll know that.

KylaGWolf
01-07-2010, 2:04 PM
Am I missing something?

If you have a California CCW why would you want to carry exposed?

Because for some of us we would like the option to choose. Also at least in my case if I am having a bad day with my arm carrying exposed would be an easier choice to use.

Cokebottle
01-07-2010, 2:15 PM
Or on a hot day when a jacket screams "MWAG" almost as loudly as OC ;)

I used to have a habit of simply leaving my bomber jacket on all day. More than once, on days in the 80s and low 90s, I was asked if I was carrying (I wasn't), and a few times was even asked if I was a cop or in the USAF.
No patches, flags, pins, or anything... just a $50 Pakistani "mall special" leather jacket with knit cuffs and waist, double-knit slacks, and a pair of deck shoes... so it wasn't that I looked like a mall ninja.