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WarEagle
01-05-2010, 5:37 PM
I was just walking by a TV that was on and saw that they are doing a segment on Open Carry tonight at 6:00 P.M. I believe the reporter said something about "returning to the Wild West." I won't be around to watch it so if somebody see's it wants to report back, please do.

wildhawker
01-05-2010, 5:57 PM
DVR tuner set.

crimtide
01-05-2010, 5:59 PM
There is also an article up on there site..

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=7202697

On Edit: The article pretty much sums up the lead story on the news .. Couple of people with positive options and a couple people with negative options .. I find it a little disturbing that the Livermore PD's response included an officer with an AR ready to go. I guess it is just a sign of the times. It will be interesting to see what happens once the cases in the pipeline get sifted out. (McDonald & Sykes)

wildhawker
01-05-2010, 6:00 PM
This lead the segment... it's not looking good and it just started...

Liberty1
01-05-2010, 6:23 PM
live

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/livenow?id=6498350

JDoe
01-05-2010, 6:25 PM
There is also an article up on there site..

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=7202697

So far the only comment is one directing folks who want to learn about open carry to opencarry.org.

majstoll

1/5/10 8:40 PM EST
learn more about LOADED open carry at OpenCarry.org - in most states folks can carry loaded holstered handguns without any license, including urban areas like Pittsburgh, Seattle, etc

bulgron
01-05-2010, 6:41 PM
Actually, this is kind of interesting in a way. Just a couple of people state-wide exercising UOC has the media all in a tizzy. Imagine what happens post-incorporation when we get the courts to agree that we have a right to bear loaded arms in public. Shall-issue CCW (if it isn't already here via Sykes) will come to California at a dizzying pace. All we'll need to do is commence the open carry walks....

Liberty1
01-05-2010, 6:58 PM
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/video#global

GrizzlyGuy
01-05-2010, 7:17 PM
Walter my man! High-5 to you. You were calm, well-spoken, exercised your natural rights peacefully, while wearing a T-shirt from my favorite web site (http://www.campaignforliberty.com/) (second to Calguns.net of course). WoooHoooo!

Occasionally I DO miss fleeing from the oppressive Bay Area to a region of CA that is almost like America.... :( ;)

yellowfin
01-05-2010, 7:22 PM
I'd say keep LOC'ing after that for purposes of education of the masses to purge them of their panty wetting fears.

SJgunguy24
01-05-2010, 7:23 PM
So far the only comment is one directing folks who want to learn about open carry to opencarry.org.

They didn't post my comment, I even registred and it still didn't post.

Swiss
01-05-2010, 7:51 PM
Next month in Walnut Creek?! How do you suppose the wealthy residents and shoppers of that area are going to react? They'll be calling their local reps (city, county, state) and raising hell - how's that going to help us?

"Walter", and whoever else joins you on that outing, please try and dress well for that outing. Shaved head, T-shirt with graphics, and jeans doesn't exactly send reassuring signals if you're carrying. Shirt, tie, and slacks would be a better way to offset negative first impressions.

Roadrunner
01-05-2010, 8:05 PM
KGO open carry piece (http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/livenow?id=6498350)

Notice the dumbass holophobe that says he doesn't see any indians or cowboys, and then in his Australian accent suggests that the open carrier needs to "grow up". Unbelievable ignorance displayed in that short video.

woodey
01-05-2010, 8:13 PM
The more it is done the more it will be accepted, remember the first time you saw to people of the same sex holding hands or kissing ever one did a double take now its just old hat.

Swiss
01-05-2010, 8:16 PM
Sure, but you need to take small steps or you'll turn the only first impression you have into a negative one. Present yourselves more favorably.

hoffmang
01-05-2010, 8:17 PM
I only hope that McDonald and Sykes can take effect before the California Legislature makes UOC impossible...

It's a race between two groups who don't think strategically. Sadly, I'm worried its one of the few races that a legislature may be able to win...

-Gene

obeygiant
01-05-2010, 8:24 PM
I only hope that McDonald and Sykes can take effect before the California Legislature makes UOC impossible...

It's a race between two groups who don't think strategically. Sadly, I'm worried its one of the few races that a legislature may be able to win...

-Gene

Precisely! I look forward to the time that UOC can be done with a unified front and purposeful direction.

Merle
01-05-2010, 8:28 PM
I only hope that McDonald and Sykes can take effect before the California Legislature makes UOC impossible...

It's a race between two groups who don't think strategically. Sadly, I'm worried its one of the few races that a legislature may be able to win...

-Gene

What stops the legislature from passing the same law restricting/banning OC aftter McDonald and Sykes?

The legislature has never acted as bound by the state law nor US constitution. Why would they change after June 2010?

Roadrunner
01-05-2010, 8:34 PM
Gene, I know that McDonald will be heard in June, but I'm expecting to hear a decision in September? Is that realistic?

bballwizard05
01-05-2010, 8:38 PM
The last guy interviewed needs to get his *** mugged, so he can see why its not about "growing up". At least the news put in comments in support of it as well. It is true however, just as people first reacted when same sex couples began kissing and such in public, I think sometime in the not so distant future UOC or even LOC will become maybe not accepted, but at least something that doesnt create 4 or 5 911 calls. But its true allowing CCW's to be shall issue seems like a better way to keep the masses calm.

hoffmang
01-05-2010, 8:46 PM
What stops the legislature from passing the same law restricting/banning OC aftter McDonald and Sykes?

The legislature has never acted as bound by the state law nor US constitution. Why would they change after June 2010?
AB-962 passed by one vote after an hour or two of the author claiming up and down that it wasn't unconstitutional under Heller. Sykes/Palmer will prove that Californians have a right to carry. At least after McDonald, we could launch a preliminary injunction or defend UOCers being publicly harassed and win. Until then, not so much.

UOC sucks. OC is interesting. UOC legislation could endanger the future of OC. Sadly you're going to have to think about it to figure out how as I'm not interested in helping the antis hurt us...

Gene, I know that McDonald will be heard in June, but I'm expecting to hear a decision in September? Is that realistic?

McDonald is heard on March 2. The decision should be released in the last week of June. If people could only wait 5 more months. But who needs patience when you know you're right...

-Gene

sholling
01-05-2010, 8:47 PM
I only hope that McDonald and Sykes can take effect before the California Legislature makes UOC impossible...

It's a race between two groups who don't think strategically. Sadly, I'm worried its one of the few races that a legislature may be able to win...

-Gene
I agree. The UOC folks will very likely succeed in getting any form of unlicensed carry and any form of open carry (other than licensed security guards) banned entirely before McDonald is won. A little at a time is one thing. Getting acceptance by small steps. But the in your face attitude some have taken lately is just going to backfire and goad the legislature into action with the media cheering them on. I wouldn't be surprised to see the legislature make it a felony.

The antis out maneuvered us for decades by thinking strategically and now that we have them on the run by taking up strategic winnable cases some of our own are throwing a great big monkey wrench into the cause.

bballwizard05
01-05-2010, 8:49 PM
another thing I just thought about when watching that video. It seems extreme when they make him put his hands on his head and face a wall and assume the frisk postion (as I have seen on youtube other UOC'ers not being treated this way) but then to top it off the third officer had is ar out and ready to rock. But I realized, after all the shootings up in washington... I cant say the way this guy was treated was completely warranted, but I can see why the police officers may be extra touchy with this stuff right now.

Durasteel
01-05-2010, 9:06 PM
Yeah, I love Mr. Balfour's comment. If it's so archaic, why do cops still carry? After all, no more Indians to repel. I think some people speak with their lizard brain before their human portion can rub two neurons together.

Stoner
01-05-2010, 9:07 PM
I guess I understand what the OC people are trying to accomplish. But it has been made clear to them that it would be in EVERYONES best interest to hold off for a few months. However they decline to do this. Now that they have managed to get their face on TV, I don’t think they will stop.

So I guess they will be the heroes that got it done, or the jerk offs that screwed it up for everyone. Only time will tell.

wildhawker
01-05-2010, 9:14 PM
So I guess they will be the heroes that got it done, or the jerk offs that screwed it up for everyone. Only time will tell.

Consider this: UOC in CA at this time has virtually zero chance of "getting it done" but has the potential to create some very negative outcomes for everyone.

Stoner
01-05-2010, 9:18 PM
Consider this: UOC in CA at this time has virtually zero chance of "getting it done" but has the potential to create some very negative outcomes for everyone.

I agree

sfpcservice
01-05-2010, 9:39 PM
I think Gene nailed it. The black panthers did it because "they could", which sadly resulted in UOC'ers having to do it the only way they can now UNLOADED.

No one is asking to give it up for life, just wait five months. Imagine if you were taking part in an ambush, and the guy next to you decided he wanted to start the fight before the enemy was in the kill zone. He'd get everyone killed. A little patience and the battle is won before it's fought.

Sgt Raven
01-05-2010, 10:37 PM
another thing I just thought about when watching that video. It seems extreme when they make him put his hands on his head and face a wall and assume the frisk postion (as I have seen on youtube other UOC'ers not being treated this way) but then to top it off the third officer had is ar out and ready to rock. But I realized, after all the shootings up in washington... I cant say the way this guy was treated was completely warranted, but I can see why the police officers may be extra touchy with this stuff right now.


How much you want to bet the TV station set the whole thing up. They contacted the UOC'er to do a interview and contacted the PD for their part. :eek: :rolleyes: :TFH:

Vinz
01-05-2010, 10:53 PM
For those that might have missed the first showing its on again in a few mins. ABC 11pm news


vinz

pullnshoot25
01-05-2010, 10:55 PM
I am just gonna jump in and add in that I feel, nay KNOW, that Gene is correct.

Please guys, we need to chill out for a bit.

JDoe
01-05-2010, 11:04 PM
It seems that many on Calguns are willing to hold off on UOC until after McDonald.

Has anyone gone over to opencarry.org and other open carry sites that have California open carriers on them and asking the active UOC'ers to hold off for five months?

We ask politicians for change, why not each other?

Liberty1
01-05-2010, 11:13 PM
AB-962 passed by one vote after an hour or two of the author claiming up and down that it wasn't unconstitutional under Heller. Sykes/Palmer will prove that Californians have a right to carry. At least after McDonald, we could launch a preliminary injunction or defend UOCers being publicly harassed and win. Until then, not so much.

UOC sucks. OC is interesting. UOC legislation could endanger the future of OC. Sadly you're going to have to think about it to figure out how as I'm not interested in helping the antis hurt us...



McDonald is heard on March 2. The decision should be released in the last week of June. If people could only wait 5 more months. But who needs patience when you know you're right...

-Gene

I just explained to my wife why we are asking people to at least wait 5 months on UOC and her response was "do they know you all are playing chess and not red rover!!!" :eek: I almost fell out of bed. Many apiologies to my UOC brothers for that, I hope to join you again soon but not just now.

Vinz
01-05-2010, 11:16 PM
It seems that many on Calguns are willing to hold off on UOC until after McDonald.

Has anyone gone over to opencarry.org and other open carry sites that have California open carriers on them and asking the active UOC'ers to hold off for five months?

We ask politicians for change, why not each other?

I wish we could all think the same but others believe the fight is now as I once did several months ago.


vinz

Liberty1
01-05-2010, 11:18 PM
It seems that many on Calguns are willing to hold off on UOC until after McDonald.

Has anyone gone over to opencarry.org and other open carry sites that have California open carriers on them and asking the active UOC'ers to hold off for five months?

Yes most at OCDO have stood down. All of the original and some of the new crowd. But it only takes one to over turn the apple cart. I'm at wits end over this bay area news coverage and the San Pedro false arrest for concealed carry and the arrest "protest" event...

Please sign up over there and PM the ringleaders and USE LOGIC to PERSUADE. Do not belittle as that may close off consideration of your ideas.

Merle
01-06-2010, 12:01 AM
...after McDonald, we could launch a preliminary injunction or defend UOCers being publicly harassed and win. Until then, not so much.

-Gene

Thanks Gene. That makes the most sense as to why NOT to OC at this time.

B Strong
01-06-2010, 6:06 AM
AB-962 passed by one vote after an hour or two of the author claiming up and down that it wasn't unconstitutional under Heller. Sykes/Palmer will prove that Californians have a right to carry. At least after McDonald, we could launch a preliminary injunction or defend UOCers being publicly harassed and win. Until then, not so much.

UOC sucks. OC is interesting. UOC legislation could endanger the future of OC. Sadly you're going to have to think about it to figure out how as I'm not interested in helping the antis hurt us...



McDonald is heard on March 2. The decision should be released in the last week of June. If people could only wait 5 more months. But who needs patience when you know you're right...
-Gene

Words more true have never been posted.

Stoner
01-06-2010, 7:04 AM
Yes most at OCDO have stood down. All of the original and some of the new crowd. But it only takes one to over turn the apple cart. I'm at wits end over this bay area news coverage and the San Pedro false arrest for concealed carry and the arrest "protest" event...

Please sign up over there and PM the ringleaders and USE LOGIC to PERSUADE. Do not belittle as that may close off consideration of your ideas.

If I thought it would do any good I would. But they think they are right and no amount of information or conversation will do any good. Once they get their face on TV and think they are celebrities, they will run with it, even if it means they run it right into the ground.

I do belive that if they do screw this whole thing up, that they be held accountable for THEIR actions!!!

Boots
01-06-2010, 7:14 AM
Just in case no one actually saw it (like me)...
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/video?id=7203032

also... video from the Livermore gathering:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZzNQhSUKjo

Asmodai
01-06-2010, 7:34 AM
"I think it's kind of archaic," Livermore resident Grant Balfour told ABC7. He and a friend sat on a nearby bench watching while the officers frisked Stanley. "I don't see any Indians or cowboys running up and down the street. I think it's time to grow up."

Silly archaic Bill of Rights, I mean sheesh, how old is that darn thing?!



However, I do agree that the UOC crowd is pressing all the wrong buttons on the machine at the moment. I was posting in another thread where they were comparing themselves to the Black Civil Rights Movement of the 60's. I had to disagree with that viewpoint. :(

ChuckBooty
01-06-2010, 8:04 AM
Did I get censored??

Anyways...here's where I think a lot of the UOC'ers who continue to carry are coming from. They DON'T BELIEVE THAT INCORPORATION WILL CHANGE ANYTHING! That's how I feel too...I think that California will continue to be California and simply ignore the entire thing. The politicians here think that they are above the law and above case-law and above the Constitution, etc. I don't think we will EVER get our true 2A rights here. I guess we're all jaded...

kcbrown
01-06-2010, 9:15 AM
Did I get censored??

Anyways...here's where I think a lot of the UOC'ers who continue to carry are coming from. They DON'T BELIEVE THAT INCORPORATION WILL CHANGE ANYTHING! That's how I feel too...I think that California will continue to be California and simply ignore the entire thing. The politicians here think that they are above the law and above case-law and above the Constitution, etc. I don't think we will EVER get our true 2A rights here. I guess we're all jaded...

Would it not be better to wait 6 months to a year and see if things change? If they don't by that time then by all means, UOC away. At that point your beliefs will have been confirmed.

But if they do, then your restraint could easily have helped the changes occur.

bulgron
01-06-2010, 10:43 AM
Did I get censored??

Anyways...here's where I think a lot of the UOC'ers who continue to carry are coming from. They DON'T BELIEVE THAT INCORPORATION WILL CHANGE ANYTHING! That's how I feel too...I think that California will continue to be California and simply ignore the entire thing. The politicians here think that they are above the law and above case-law and above the Constitution, etc. I don't think we will EVER get our true 2A rights here. I guess we're all jaded...

So their tactic is to engage in behavior that guarantees they lose even the last vestige of the right to carry in public?

Nice.

The short-sightedness of the UOC movement is amazing.

GrizzlyGuy
01-06-2010, 10:43 AM
AB-962 passed by one vote after an hour or two of the author claiming up and down that it wasn't unconstitutional under Heller. Sykes/Palmer will prove that Californians have a right to carry. At least after McDonald, we could launch a preliminary injunction or defend UOCers being publicly harassed and win. Until then, not so much.

UOC sucks. OC is interesting. UOC legislation could endanger the future of OC. Sadly you're going to have to think about it to figure out how as I'm not interested in helping the antis hurt us...

McDonald is heard on March 2. The decision should be released in the last week of June. If people could only wait 5 more months. But who needs patience when you know you're right...


I don't know all that you know, but I have no doubt that you and the rest of CGF logically formulated an optimal plan for securing the greatest amount of gun rights in the shortest amount of time. I truly believe this.

However, since that plan was formulated, the situation on the ground has changed. The tea party movement and expectation that McDonald and other cases will have positive outcomes have instilled vigor and passion into a group of liberty-minded people who, as you say, know they're right (and they are). Their revered and respected "forefathers" and philosophical leaders (e.g., Nate) have tried to persuade them to wait, many have, but passion and righteousness sometimes overwhelms even the admonitions from respected icons.

No offense to CGF, but a group of less than 50 activists, with no formal organization or leadership, without funding... have secured more widespread and potentially influential publicity than CGF has in the past few years (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). The frequency of open carry activities is actually increasing, not decreasing. That is the reality on the ground, regardless of how wrong-headed and risky someone may deem it to be.

I don't believe it will be possible to convince all of the activists to cease OC activities until after McDonald. As I said, passion and righteousness often trumps logic and strategic thinking.

However, it may be possible to persuade them to conduct their activities in ways that could have equal or even greater benefits in terms of exposing the public to peaceful open carry, while reducing the risk of an event happening that inadvertently harms the cause.

In full deference to Oak's insightful chart below (:D), I shall stop writing. If anyone is interested, I could later continue with some ideas on how that might be achieved.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2qk5b1d.jpg

Kestryll
01-06-2010, 10:45 AM
That's two posts removed due to juvenile little insults and derogatory comments towards LEOs.
You don't have to like them but you will not use insulting terms for them here. We don't allow insulting names for politicians and we won't allow them for LEOs either.

The only function they serve is to make us ALL look like children, we're adults, act like it.

This is the ONLY warning.

SixPointEight
01-06-2010, 10:59 AM
So not gonna insult anyone here, but did anyone else notice the gentleman, who happened to be a LEO, trying to put the mag into the XD backwards for a second? Made me laugh a little. Happens at 1:16

More on the open carry topic, I think I'm gonna agree that it's not the time yet. Patience is a virtue

wildhawker
01-06-2010, 11:58 AM
The questions that must be asked are:

1. Is this publicity net positive or net negative (not simply in the context of original audience)?
2. Does this publicity create political capital or legal violations which can be leveraged?
3. What will it take to be sensational enough to maintain this level of exposure?

An intellectually honest response to the first two questions make the practice of UOC pre-McDonald/Sykes less than desirable. The Livermore group has answered the third - gradually move farther into affluent and substantially anti-gun areas (in this case, Walnut Creek).


I don't know all that you know, but I have no doubt that you and the rest of CGF logically formulated an optimal plan for securing the greatest amount of gun rights in the shortest amount of time. I truly believe this.

However, since that plan was formulated, the situation on the ground has changed. The tea party movement and expectation that McDonald and other cases will have positive outcomes have instilled vigor and passion into a group of liberty-minded people who, as you say, know they're right (and they are). Their revered and respected "forefathers" and philosophical leaders (e.g., Nate) have tried to persuade them to wait, many have, but passion and righteousness sometimes overwhelms even the admonitions from respected icons.

No offense to CGF, but a group of less than 50 activists, with no formal organization or leadership, without funding... have secured more widespread and potentially influential publicity than CGF has in the past few years (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). The frequency of open carry activities is actually increasing, not decreasing. That is the reality on the ground, regardless of how wrong-headed and risky someone may deem it to be.

I don't believe it will be possible to convince all of the activists to cease OC activities until after McDonald. As I said, passion and righteousness often trumps logic and strategic thinking.

However, it may be possible to persuade them to conduct their activities in ways that could have equal or even greater benefits in terms of exposing the public to peaceful open carry, while reducing the risk of an event happening that inadvertently harms the cause.

In full deference to Oak's insightful chart below (:D), I shall stop writing. If anyone is interested, I could later continue with some ideas on how that might be achieved.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2qk5b1d.jpg

Vtec44
01-06-2010, 12:17 PM
So not gonna insult anyone here, but did anyone else notice the gentleman, who happened to be a LEO, trying to put the mag into the XD backwards for a second? Made me laugh a little. Happens at 1:16

I do that once in a while with my XD. :o

gotgunz
01-06-2010, 12:46 PM
Just in case no one actually saw it (like me)...
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/video?id=7203032


Isn't the officer in this video ^^^^ .............



also... video from the Livermore gathering:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZzNQhSUKjo


In the background of this video ^^^^ ? Meaning it looks to me like he was playing tough guy for the t.v. camera.

p.s. from a tactical standpoint I believe the loaded and ready in 2 seconds assessment is absolute b.s. (and I have said so before). What I don't understand is why they have unloaded mags in the gun?

I mean they are proclaiming that it is for personal protection; What are you going to do ninja boy? Throw the unloaded mag at your attacker?

Think about this.... you are going to draw your weapon, remove the empty mag from the gun while drawing a loaded one from the belt, insert the loaded mag into the gun and rack the slide and be on target in under 2 seconds?

NOT!


This has stupidity written all over it.

GrizzlyGuy
01-06-2010, 1:02 PM
The questions that must be asked are:

1. Is this publicity net positive or net negative (not simply in the context of original audience)?
2. Does this publicity create political capital or legal violations which can be leveraged?
3. What will it take to be sensational enough to maintain this level of exposure?


Those are all great questions, Wildhawker. Let me rephrase them slightly so as to hopefully take into account the reality on the ground (as you alluded to in your comment):

1. Given that these activities will continue, how can they be conducted so as to get the best possible publicity? (or least harmful depending on a person's perspective)

2. Given that these activities will continue, how can they be structured to maximize and leverage gains in political capital while minimizing the chances of legal violations occurring?

3. Hold that thought...

An intellectually honest response to the first two questions make the practice of UOC pre-McDonald/Sykes less than desirable. The Livermore group has answered the third - gradually move farther into affluent and substantially anti-gun areas (in this case, Walnut Creek).

Most of the UOC activities have been in urban areas with population, LEAs and media that are not predisposed to enthusiastically accept the message being conveyed by the activists, or for LEAs to respect their 4A rights. In the San Pedro instance (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=255863), that particular urban area is even more challenging. Through no fault of Army and the other activists there, LAPD overreacted, caused understandable anxiety for the nearby non-participating citizens (helicopter hovering, streets blocked, many LEOs = understandable anxiety), and setup the conditions that could have led to a negative outcome in terms of publicity.

So... given that UOC activities will continue, can they continue in a way that answers the above questions? I think so. One possibility:

Organize a UOC walk-a-thon that benefits a noncontroversial charity that is supported by the majority of Californians: veterans assistance, cancer research, SPCA, etc.

Conduct the walk-a-thon on a well-traveled and pedestrian-safe highway outside the "hostile" urban areas. We obviously want it to be a safe location, and well-traveled means greater exposure to more average people whizzing by. Those people would see a peaceful walk for a good cause, by people who are only incidentally carrying firearms.

Choose media that are most likely to do fair and balanced reporting, and alert them in advance.

Choose one or two activists to be public ambassadors and spokesmen to both the media and law enforcement (should LE show up). Prior to the event, develop talking points and hold a conference call where these spokesmen are challenged with difficult questions and practice their responses. This is much like how politicians prepare for debates.

Consider doing the walk-a-thon with rifles (not black ones, just the tame looking ones) instead of handguns, since people walking down highways with rifles is not uncommon in some areas. Thanks to propaganda from the Brady Bunch and other antis, I also think people are more likely to associate "handgun" with "bad guy".

Designate a walk-a-thon safety officer (like a RSO) who inspects and assures that all firearms are being lawfully carried, traffic laws and other laws are respected, etc.

OPTIONAL: Inform LE in advance that the walk-a-thon will occur, so that they will have an opportunity to plan their response (if any) accordingly. I say "optional" because I'm not sure if the activists would accept this idea, and there may be regions outside of urban areas where it may not be necessary (not all LE agencies dispatch a helicopter, dozens of officers, and block streets).

I could go on, but see Oak's graph. :D

You may not believe that an event like this would produce positive results or that it is desirable at this time. But given that OC events will continue regardless, wouldn't you agree that conducting them in this way would at least minimize risk to CGF's strategy?

Merle
01-06-2010, 1:04 PM
The questions that must be asked are:

1. Is this publicity net positive or net negative (not simply in the context of original audience)?
2. Does this publicity create political capital or legal violations which can be leveraged?
3. What will it take to be sensational enough to maintain this level of exposure?

An intellectually honest response to the first two questions make the practice of UOC pre-McDonald/Sykes less than desirable. The Livermore group has answered the third - gradually move farther into affluent and substantially anti-gun areas (in this case, Walnut Creek).

1. I believe this publicity is a net positive. The last I heard, 40% of Americans own firearms. Recently in the SJ Mercury a 74 year old man took a walk exercising his 'right'. The more people with visible sidearms, the more deterrent to crime there is (except when carrying a sidearm is a crime). Visibility into a legal right should never be viewed as a negative.

2. Both.

Assuming 40% of Americans own firearms, a candidate who ignores a 40% of the populace does so at their own peril. Minority (e.g. hispanic) groups are also patronized for their support. The NRA, or 'gun lobby' is one of the most powerful lobbies in DC if you believe the news.

Yes, legal violations and the exercise of inalienable rights are an omnipresent threat even if the actions are legal. However, these cases are heard in courts of law and ideally, behaviors changed for the better in the long run.

3. I don't think it needs to be sensational. Simply understanding the right to self-defense is inalienable. The right to carry a gun does not grant police the unlawful right to detain and search simply helps more people to carry and not frighten the typical citizen.

No one calls the police when they see a black man strolling down the street anymore nor sitting at a lunch counter or riding in the front of a bus.

Carrying a weapon should be no different.

wildhawker
01-06-2010, 1:05 PM
For what it's worth, here's what Grand Master & national champion of every handgun class has to offer in terms of speed reloading:

OmNjcubxfQA

Liberty1
01-06-2010, 1:13 PM
No one calls the police when they see a black man strolling down the street...

In Hispanicpanic jurisdictions they do...but at least the police just roll by mostly absent R.A.S. Thats mostly...

gotgunz
01-06-2010, 1:13 PM
Todd Jarrett? :rolleyes:

That is certainly not representative of the average open carry'r (or even avg ccw'r for that matter).

Nice try though.

wildhawker
01-06-2010, 1:13 PM
You've offered some reasonable suggestions not unlike what Gene has in the past. If UOC is going to continue, it should predominantly include non-skinhead non-white males.

I completely agree with this strategy and feel that, if UOC activists are going to maintain participation while we wait for McDonald/Palmer/Sykes, they should be wise enough to consider such.

That said, I've witnessed no movement to such a position which tells me that they either refuse to acknowledge the realities of their own movement or they cannot organize such a diverse event in a context less likely to cause damage and more likely to foster some goodwill. Further, I expect that we'll not see it as the primary form of UOC expression until after incorporation and through Calguns events. It's fair to say that my skepticism of UOCs practical value is based more on the historically-consistent approach by the UOC movement than UOC itself.

Those are all great questions, Wildhawker. Let me rephrase them slightly so as to hopefully take into account the reality on the ground (as you alluded to in your comment):

1. Given that these activities will continue, how can they be conducted so as to get the best possible publicity? (or least harmful depending on a person's perspective)

2. Given that these activities will continue, how can they be structured to maximize and leverage gains in political capital while minimizing the chances of legal violations occurring?

3. Hold that thought...



Most of the UOC activities have been in urban areas with population, LEAs and media that are not predisposed to enthusiastically accept the message being conveyed by the activists, or for LEAs to respect their 4A rights. In the San Pedro instance (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=255863), that particular urban area is even more challenging. Through no fault of Army and the other activists there, LAPD overreacted, caused understandable anxiety for the nearby non-participating citizens (helicopter hovering, streets blocked, many LEOs = understandable anxiety), and setup the conditions that could have led to a negative outcome in terms of publicity.

So... given that UOC activities will continue, can they continue in a way that answers the above questions? I think so. One possibility:

Organize a UOC walk-a-thon that benefits a noncontroversial charity that is supported by the majority of Californians: veterans assistance, cancer research, SPCA, etc.

Conduct the walk-a-thon on a well-traveled and pedestrian-safe highway outside the "hostile" urban areas. We obviously want it to be a safe location, and well-traveled means greater exposure to more average people whizzing by. Those people would see a peaceful walk for a good cause, by people who are only incidentally carrying firearms.

Choose media that are most likely to do fair and balanced reporting, and alert them in advance.

Choose one or two activists to be public ambassadors and spokesmen to both the media and law enforcement (should LE show up). Prior to the event, develop talking points and hold a conference call where these spokesmen are challenged with difficult questions and practice their responses. This is much like how politicians prepare for debates.

Consider doing the walk-a-thon with rifles (not black ones, just the tame looking ones) instead of handguns, since people walking down highways with rifles is not uncommon in some areas. Thanks to propaganda from the Brady Bunch and other antis, I also think people are more likely to associate "handgun" with "bad guy".

Designate a walk-a-thon safety officer (like a RSO) who inspects and assures that all firearms are being lawfully carried, traffic laws and other laws are respected, etc.

OPTIONAL: Inform LE in advance that the walk-a-thon will occur, so that they will have an opportunity to plan their response (if any) accordingly. I say "optional" because I'm not sure if the activists would accept this idea, and there may be regions outside of urban areas where it may not be necessary (not all LE agencies dispatch a helicopter, dozens of officers, and block streets).

I could go on, but see Oak's graph. :D

You may not believe that an event like this would produce positive results or that it is desirable at this time. But given that OC events will continue regardless, wouldn't you agree that conducting them in this way would at least minimize risk to CGF's strategy?

wildhawker
01-06-2010, 1:14 PM
Todd Jarrett? :rolleyes:

That is certainly not representative of the average open carry'r (or even avg ccw'r for that matter).

Nice try though.

That was the point.

gotgunz
01-06-2010, 1:20 PM
That was the point.


Okay, then I agree with this assessment and will further call b.s. to the open carriers that think they can get loaded in under 2 seconds.

wildhawker
01-06-2010, 1:22 PM
You've expressed both a projection of your values system (many "should"s) and your frustrations with the current climate but have offered no real basis for the assertion that candidates who ignore or hold in contempt the rights of "the populace does so at their own peril". I'm sorry, but California continues to elect a substantial majority of anti-gun officials at all levels of government.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what to make of your comments to my no. 3. It seems to have started with a disagreement with my argument and proceeds directly into further projections of your values system.

I empathize with you, but we'll have to agree to disagree on the means, methods and timing of our approach to change.

1. I believe this publicity is a net positive. The last I heard, 40% of Americans own firearms. Recently in the SJ Mercury a 74 year old man took a walk exercising his 'right'. The more people with visible sidearms, the more deterrent to crime there is (except when carrying a sidearm is a crime). Visibility into a legal right should never be viewed as a negative.

2. Both.

Assuming 40% of Americans own firearms, a candidate who ignores a 40% of the populace does so at their own peril. Minority (e.g. hispanic) groups are also patronized for their support. The NRA, or 'gun lobby' is one of the most powerful lobbies in DC if you believe the news.

Yes, legal violations and the exercise of inalienable rights are an omnipresent threat even if the actions are legal. However, these cases are heard in courts of law and ideally, behaviors changed for the better in the long run.

3. I don't think it needs to be sensational. Simply understanding the right to self-defense is inalienable. The right to carry a gun does not grant police the unlawful right to detain and search simply helps more people to carry and not frighten the typical citizen.

No one calls the police when they see a black man strolling down the street anymore nor sitting at a lunch counter or riding in the front of a bus.

Carrying a weapon should be no different.

2009_gunner
01-06-2010, 1:37 PM
Okay, then I agree with this assessment and will further call b.s. to the open carriers that think they can get loaded in under 2 seconds.

Not me, but a recent video from an OC advocate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B8WEPRaNX8

wildhawker
01-06-2010, 1:51 PM
Not me, but a recent video from an OC advocate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B8WEPRaNX8

Not me, but I've seen some people ride a bike across a tightrope strung between two tall buildings.

No doubt it's possible, but statistically anomalous.

ENTHUSIAST
01-06-2010, 2:04 PM
People should understand waiting a few more months to Open Carry in the big picture of things is really NOTHING!

How many people were all HOT and bothered to UOC BEFORE hearing about it on Calguns.net or on OCDO....?!?

I have waited my whole life to do something I NEVER thought I would be able to do here in California... I would hope others can find a little self control for just a few more months.

Barney Gumble
01-06-2010, 2:14 PM
Anyways...here's where I think a lot of the UOC'ers who continue to carry are coming from. They DON'T BELIEVE THAT INCORPORATION WILL CHANGE ANYTHING! That's how I feel too...I think that California will continue to be California and simply ignore the entire thing. The politicians here think that they are above the law and above case-law and above the Constitution, etc. I don't think we will EVER get our true 2A rights here. I guess we're all jaded...

I guess they haven't seen the ending of "Gallipoli".

Decoligny
01-06-2010, 2:24 PM
Isn't the officer in this video ^^^^ .............





In the background of this video ^^^^ ? Meaning it looks to me like he was playing tough guy for the t.v. camera.

p.s. from a tactical standpoint I believe the loaded and ready in 2 seconds assessment is absolute b.s. (and I have said so before). What I don't understand is why they have unloaded mags in the gun?

I mean they are proclaiming that it is for personal protection; What are you going to do ninja boy? Throw the unloaded mag at your attacker?

Think about this.... you are going to draw your weapon, remove the empty mag from the gun while drawing a loaded one from the belt, insert the loaded mag into the gun and rack the slide and be on target in under 2 seconds?

NOT!


This has stupidity written all over it.

Why not try it some time, you will find that it is not that difficult with a little practice. And practice instills muscle memory. You end up doing it without thinking about it.

I do it all the time in reload drills. I draw my weapon while hitting the mag release, simultaneously drawing a full magazine with my left hand. The empty mag is out or the magwell by the time my gun is at about 45 degrees. My left hand is then inserting the full mag and racking a round as the weapon reaches a level plane and target acquisition is achieved. All in under 2 seconds.

There is even a YouTube video out there of one of the OCDO members doing this. He timed it at 2.1 seconds. While it may not be the "average" UOCer, it shows that with a little practice it can be done fairly easily.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B8WEPRaNX8

grammaton76
01-06-2010, 2:48 PM
I shall simply point out that UOC and LUCC share a considerable time delay between you and a loaded weapon. I also consider both to be not terribly useful to the defense of a targetted individual, but useful in the event of a larger scale event where the carrier is not the primary, direct target.

My approach?
1. Run in the opposite direction or try to keep someone/something in between the aggressor's line of sight and you. Very possible in a holdup situation where you happen to be present, not so possible in direct contact.
2. Ready your weapon. This takes a while with LUCC.
3. If the threat continues when this is over with, react.

However, at no point does LUCC make you less safe than when your gun's locked up in a gun safe on the other side of town. UOC is somewhat debatable in some situations.

gotgunz
01-06-2010, 3:34 PM
Not me, but a recent video from an OC advocate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B8WEPRaNX8

Sure, in the comfort and safety of his own home without anybody causing a threat to his safety... Hell I am a damn porn star and hung like a horse until the camera starts recording!

Not me, but I've seen some people ride a bike across a tightrope strung between two tall buildings.

No doubt it's possible, but statistically anomalous.

X2

Why not try it some time, you will find that it is not that difficult with a little practice. And practice instills muscle memory. You end up doing it without thinking about it.

I do it all the time in reload drills. I draw my weapon while hitting the mag release, simultaneously drawing a full magazine with my left hand. The empty mag is out or the magwell by the time my gun is at about 45 degrees. My left hand is then inserting the full mag and racking a round as the weapon reaches a level plane and target acquisition is achieved. All in under 2 seconds.

There is even a YouTube video out there of one of the OCDO members doing this. He timed it at 2.1 seconds. While it may not be the "average" UOCer, it shows that with a little practice it can be done fairly easily.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B8WEPRaNX8

I have to keep laughing... anything is possible with enough practice but I would like to see him (or anybody) do it when under pressure or, god forbid, under fire.

It won't happen, period.

Wouldn't it be easier to just carry the gun without a mag? I mean its already empty; having to remove an empty mag to install a loaded one seems like a waste of precious time.

Roadrunner
01-06-2010, 4:39 PM
McDonald is heard on March 2. The decision should be released in the last week of June. If people could only wait 5 more months. But who needs patience when you know you're right...

-Gene

Even better, thanks.

pullnshoot25
01-06-2010, 5:04 PM
You've offered some reasonable suggestions not unlike what Gene has in the past. If UOC is going to continue, it should predominantly include non-skinhead non-white males.

I completely agree with this strategy and feel that, if UOC activists are going to maintain participation while we wait for McDonald/Palmer/Sykes, they should be wise enough to consider such.

That said, I've witnessed no movement to such a position which tells me that they either refuse to acknowledge the realities of their own movement or they cannot organize such a diverse event in a context less likely to cause damage and more likely to foster some goodwill. Further, I expect that we'll not see it as the primary form of UOC expression until after incorporation and through Calguns events. It's fair to say that my skepticism of UOCs practical value is based more on the historically-consistent approach by the UOC movement than UOC itself.

Should I tell about my idea? hehe.

mej16489
01-06-2010, 5:15 PM
Has anyone gone over to opencarry.org and other open carry sites that have California open carriers on them and asking the active UOC'ers to hold off for five months?



With great regularity. The CA forum of OCDO is pretty much split between the old-guard and the new-guys. 99.9% of the old-guard is advocating the CalGuns Foundation's desire to abstain from UOC until incorporation.

GrizzlyGuy
01-06-2010, 6:23 PM
You've offered some reasonable suggestions not unlike what Gene has in the past. If UOC is going to continue, it should predominantly include non-skinhead non-white males.

I completely agree with this strategy and feel that, if UOC activists are going to maintain participation while we wait for McDonald/Palmer/Sykes, they should be wise enough to consider such.

That said, I've witnessed no movement to such a position which tells me that they either refuse to acknowledge the realities of their own movement or they cannot organize such a diverse event in a context less likely to cause damage and more likely to foster some goodwill. Further, I expect that we'll not see it as the primary form of UOC expression until after incorporation and through Calguns events. It's fair to say that my skepticism of UOCs practical value is based more on the historically-consistent approach by the UOC movement than UOC itself.

I haven't been around long enough to know if such an option/position has been presented to the most enthusiastic activists. All I've seen are requests to cease activism entirely until after incorporation, with no middle-ground option presented. I'm sure Nate would know the history, I'm just an interested observer. :)

FYI, it looks like their next meet (http://claycord.blogspot.com/2010/01/open-carry-coming-soon-to-walnut-creek.html) will have many more people joining them (see comments):

Anonymous - Sounds like fun I just might join in!

Anonymous - I'll be joining them!

Anonymous - You carry yours open with ammo at your side, I'll carry mine loaded and hidden in my jacket.

etc...

pullnshoot25
01-06-2010, 11:13 PM
I haven't been around long enough to know if such an option/position has been presented to the most enthusiastic activists. All I've seen are requests to cease activism entirely until after incorporation, with no middle-ground option presented. I'm sure Nate would know the history, I'm just an interested observer. :)

FYI, it looks like their next meet (http://claycord.blogspot.com/2010/01/open-carry-coming-soon-to-walnut-creek.html) will have many more people joining them (see comments):

Anonymous - Sounds like fun I just might join in!

Anonymous - I'll be joining them!

Anonymous - You carry yours open with ammo at your side, I'll carry mine loaded and hidden in my jacket.

etc...

There has been some middle ground proposed.

However, it is quite difficult to find people that are also minorities with the guts to come to an OC event. Seriously, I have tried. I wish that the guys (even better, the girls) in the Marksmanship Club were up to it but most of the people in the Club don't even own a firearm (I think we MAY have a 20-30% ownership rate) and even fewer are up to snuff on even the most basic of laws.

I do have an idea for an OC meet that I brought up to Wildhawker that I am half serious about. It involves minorities only and it will be, shall we say, a spectacular sight. I may get Enthusiast to help me with it too. :)

Cyc Wid It
01-06-2010, 11:33 PM
I think Gene nailed it. The black panthers did it because "they could", which sadly resulted in UOC'ers having to do it the only way they can now UNLOADED.


I think saying that the Black Panthers did it only because they could is a bit of an oversimplification. Also, comparing the situation of the Black Panthers/African Americans in California at that time to that of gun owners now is more than a stretch.

wildhawker
01-07-2010, 12:10 AM
A few comments from Claycord.com:

Anonymous said...
It's also legal to hold a neo-nazi rally in public, doesn't mean you should flaunt that right. Handguns have no place in modern society, and especially in public places.

January 5, 2010 8:12 PM
Anonymous said...
Well, that's a relief. 11 AM on Saturday on the mean streets of Walnut Creek is where we need some dudes packing heat. I always feel vulnerable there .
January 5, 2010 8:14 PM

Anonymous said...
What is wrong with all you people-This is absurd-
January 5, 2010 8:22 PM

DEANINCONCORD said...
Sounds like a bunch of idiots to me. Let bring open carry to WC where all the nannies and moms are pushing there children in strollers. I bet some moms will go off on these jokers for bringing this to Walnut Creek.
January 5, 2010 8:28 PM

Anonymous said...
What is absurd is having anyone other than a police officer brandishing a weapon-Can you imagine going out in public anywhere (dinner out, shopping at mall, going to park,) and coming upon these yahoos-only asking for more trouble
January 5, 2010 8:33 PM

Anonymous said...
Thanks for the warning. I'll stay clear of Walnut Creek on Feb 6th.
January 5, 2010 9:03 PM

Anonymous said...
Seriously? There are so many other causes that could/should be addressed in today's world instead of carrying a gun in Walnut Creek. I cannot even imagine having to explain that to my young children.
January 5, 2010 9:05 PM

Anonymous said...
Please just take your guns and your attitudes out of state.
January 5, 2010 9:59 PM

Anonymous said...
This is an idiotic movement!

Having a bunch of right-wingers flashing their guns around does not make me feel safe. Don't these guys know how to live in a civilized society? Or are the guns substitutes for something else they feel like flashing??

...

I think it's a deliberate attempt to intimidate others. Also, it seems unsafe. Is some law enforcement authority going to check everyone to make sure the guns are unloaded? How do we know otherwise they ARE unloaded? In a room full of open-carry proponents, how do we know some of these guys aren't carrying LOADED weapons that they're going to start firing.

This reminds me of the movement in some states to fight for people's "right" to have a gun at work or in their car in the compan parking lot. Just what we need, right? - some hothead with a loaded gun in his car, ready to go out and pop somebody when he gets in an argument with a supervisor a co-worker.

Leave your gun at home, you fools!
January 5, 2010 11:03 PM

Anonymous said...
So now what do we tell our children...if you see someone with a gun don't run check and see if it's unloaded? Please!
January 6, 2010 12:19 AM

Anonymous said...
This will stop when the first one gets killed by a cop.

Cops protect yourselves - shot first ask guestions later.
January 6, 2010 12:21 AM

Sinn Feiner said...
I spoke to a higher up in the Concord PD about this a few months ago.

I was told that it is Legal but that if somebody here in Concord decides to "Open Carry" that they will be confronted by the Concord Police with weapons drawn for the officers safety!

I'm a gun owner but that's not something I'd like to experience with my local police.

When someone is open carrying, you have no idea if they're a LEO or not. So therefore the average person out there isn't really sure whether that handgun is loaded or not.

In my opinion, it's better to get your CCW Permit if you can that way you go through your 40 hrs. of classes on Handgun Safety!

I'm in the process of getting my CCW Permit right now. 95% of the time my gun will be locked up though. I had one about 7 years ago out here but haven't renewed it in a few years. You have to renew it and pay your fees every 2 years for CCW.
January 6, 2010 3:24 AM

Victim of Your Wonderful Guns said...
I have been a victim of rape in a state where guns are the norm.....Texas. Yeah the f*cking middle of red-neck heaven. The problem with legalized carry is that it is also legal for the criminals to have guns (yep fake ID inother family memebers names etc). So all you gun loving red-necks go live in F*cking Texas or other places in the South with rest of your gun toting red-neck brothers and sisters. Oh and for the record...The rapist had a gun and got 18 months 1st offense. BFD!!!!!!!! I can't believe that the Bay Area has soooo many right wing Sarah Palin loving Republic Red-Necks living here.
January 6, 2010 8:57 AM

Anonymous said...
I love the patriots who proclaim their love for the Constitution and the 2nd amendment.

So let's take that a little further and ask them how they feel about extending rights that are given in the Constitution to ALL Americans, like gays and Muslims?

I have a feeling that many of the 2nd amendment advocates are selective about their interpretation of the Constitution.

Also-
Would love to see them "demonstrate" in Oakland or Richmond and then tell us how big and bad they feel then.

Some open carry advocates definitely are paranoid (not all) like every segment of the population. I don't know if I want someone like that interpreting a situation on the street and making a determination to shoot at something they might have knowledge of what is going on.

Imagine an open carry advocate, holding someone at bay for a crime they allegedly committed only to have another open carry advocate misinterpret it as a hold up and shoot the other one.

Somehow, this seems like just another tea party show for people with too much time on their hands.

If you believe in open carry, why not try the legislative route?
January 6, 2010 8:59 AM

Anonymous said...
Bodie and other wild west towns are great examples of legal open carry places. Didn't Bodie have at least one murder a day from gun violence? There is a reason they were outlawed.

Many laws were on the books that supported slavery and sexism but we have evolved. Obviously many of the uber-dweebs have trouble grasping that fact.
January 6, 2010 9:16 AM

Albert Einstein said...
This is just excellent...

When the popularity of this movement hits the criminal element, they too will Open Carry.

As long as the police don't recognize them as a convicted violent criminal, convicted drug addict, or somebody with a past mental history, they too will open carry.

It's not going to take them long to figure out the police can only stop you long enough to ensure the weapon isn't loaded. They will love the fact the police can't check their identification or run the gun to see if it's stolen.

Or, if Mr. Parolee or Mr. Gangbanger is smart, he will have his Ole Lady Open Carry for him.

When the sensitivity of seeing Open Carry wears off on the public, and people stop calling the police every time they see an Open Carry, more of the criminal element will start to Open Carry.

Way to go 2nd Amendment Rights folks....you will have successfully accomplished one thing, educating the most dangerous element of society!!!!
January 6, 2010 11:27 AM

Anonymous said...
...spread the word over there. Then we will see it's not about the 2nd amendment, but white guys who have too much time on their hands.
January 6, 2010 11:49 AM

Anonymous said...
This is disturbing. Do you really want to walk into a bank, restaurant or supermarket and see people standing around with guns on their belt? How do you know who is competent to use it (and determine correctly when it should be used) and who is the real good guy and the real bad guy?
January 6, 2010 12:39 PM

Anonymous said...
sweet! we can arrest on these nut jobs on the same day at the same place!
January 6, 2010 1:41 PM

Rand McNally said...
rkt:
Use your noggin'.

The GFSZ (Gun Free School Zone) applies to: pre-schools, kindergarten, elementary school, junior high, high school, college prep, junior colleges, colleges, universities, technical schools, trade schools, etc.

There are other regional open-carry rules that further restrict where you can open-carry.

If your Open-Carry is a bluff play it safe and carry an AirSoft or Paintball gun and don't ever point it at anybody so they can see the red-tip.
January 6, 2010 1:58 PM

Anonymous said...
Cool, Im going to come and Open Carry my shotgun. I wanna feel the wild west too!

Or maybe Ill go buy a toy gun with holster to mock these idiots.
January 6, 2010 3:48 PM

Anonymous said...
People People relax..it will all be over once someone carrying or not gets shot and killed either by a regular person, criminal, or cop.

Just wait for the Mayor is post the first story maybe it will happen on Saturday.

I know I plan to go and if I see a gun there will be multi calls to 911. So I guess this give notice to all those "black hoodie" criminals to come to Concord as our cops will be real busy wasting our tax dollars.

Average Joe said...
Fellow Claycordian's, The open carry practice is a bad idea simply because the profileration and presence of additional handguns in the community will lead to an increase in firearms accidents involving children, etc. While I am 100% against rising crime and always intend to protect my family, etc.; the best and safest practice is to "not be somewhere" that you feel you need to display a handgun. Certainly, the threat level at the CA Pizza Place is not Defcon 1 and no guns are needed. Again, I applaud the underlying sentiment that we want safer communities, don't tolerate crime, etc. However, I am certain additional numbers of handguns in the communicated promoted by this practice will lead to more harm than good.
January 6, 2010 7:34 PM

Anonymous said...
Just what we need... a bunch of country-fried rubes named Merle, Jim-Bob and skeeter packin' heat.
January 6, 2010 9:04 PM

NorCalMama
01-07-2010, 12:51 AM
I just LOVE the cop who can't even load the mag initially! LOL
What's beyond annoying is how people feel safe when they see a cop with a loaded gun on their hip, but a law abiding citizen who is carrying an UNLOADED gun, oh dear mother of God, those same people suddenly begin fearing for their very lives! :rant:

ADD: Wildhawker... ok, I'm trying to be very careful of how I word this, but those comments make me want to bang my head against the wall, very very hard. Those MORONS are protesting a private citizen exercising, and subsequently helping to uphold his Second Amendment RIGHT to keep and bear arms. I would love to know how they would feel if I began rallying to censor their free speech to the same level our RIGHT to keep and bear arms is being attacked?! AAAHHHH!!!! *sigh* I do have to laugh though. One brilliant individual commented that we need to take this out of CA. I'd LOVE to get the hell out of here! Just not for the unconstitutional reason they are suggesting.

Dangerpin
01-07-2010, 1:00 AM
Wow, the vitriol in those responses is alarming. The fear oozing off the comments is palpable. You'd think that the UOC'ers had bombs strapped to their chests.

This is what happens when you fail to teach your children about the safe use and handling of guns. When a generation goes by that has never shot a target this is the reaction you get.

bigcalidave
01-07-2010, 1:15 AM
This quote sums up all the morons in concord / willow creek who think that the police are the only ones who should be armed and will come to their rescue in a bad situation... Makes me sick...

And then the poor aggrieved open carry advocate will complain, whine, and possibly sue about his or her lame rights.

Chk Chk Boom
01-07-2010, 1:31 AM
I'm always the first to shot others.

Oh, And I ask a lot of guestions too.

battleship
01-07-2010, 2:01 AM
Is there a giant mythical wall that runs the length of California so that citizens here cannot see how normal it is to open carry in AZ and NV, is the concept/ scene really that alien to them. Im guessing when they visit the local free states and see open carry there they don't think much of it. But when back here people act like your a serial killer.
Even the police, surely they have cop buddies in AZ and NV or they go there and see people open carry yet they act like what a British Police officer might do, shock and awe when it happens here.
I bet AZ or NV police dont go up to some one like these guys do and say your scaring the people we have had complaints, and then begins to check his gun while making an scene with him.
It just seems that it is acceptable behavior as long as its not in the state of California, why has california become such a run away train in its thinking.

As for that one guy, he can go back to England or Australiar its not his place to even make a negative comment. Man i want to give him a piece of my mind.

Liberty1
01-07-2010, 9:53 AM
Is there a giant mythical wall that runs the length of California so that citizens here cannot see how normal it is to open carry in AZ and NV...

It's not mythical, it called the desert. And it would help with exposure if more people OCed on the strip. But even in a state such as Vermont and every other state where OC is legal, CC is the preferred carry method for a variety of mainly social reasons. It is simply what allows most to go about their day with the greatest ease. And even in those states only about 5% choose to get their concealed licenses.

However I prefer OC for all the reasons stated here: http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html

Kestryll
01-07-2010, 10:07 AM
ADD: Wildhawker... ok, I'm trying to be very careful of how I word this, but those comments make me want to bang my head against the wall, very very hard. Those MORONS are protesting a private citizen exercising, and subsequently helping to uphold his Second Amendment RIGHT to keep and bear arms. I would love to know how they would feel if I began rallying to censor their free speech to the same level our RIGHT to keep and bear arms is being attacked?! AAAHHHH!!!! *sigh* I do have to laugh though. One brilliant individual commented that we need to take this out of CA. I'd LOVE to get the hell out of here! Just not for the unconstitutional reason they are suggesting.

Wow, the vitriol in those responses is alarming. The fear oozing off the comments is palpable. You'd think that the UOC'ers had bombs strapped to their chests.

This is what happens when you fail to teach your children about the safe use and handling of guns. When a generation goes by that has never shot a target this is the reaction you get.

This quote sums up all the morons in concord / willow creek who think that the police are the only ones who should be armed and will come to their rescue in a bad situation... Makes me sick...


I really can not tell if you so completely missed the point of Brandon's post or you are choosing to ignore it as it is not comfortable.

Those 'morons' are the same ones who's opinions the UOC'ers are saying they are trying to change.
They are the same ones that the argument 'They'll come around when they get used to seeing it'.

Well apparently 'they' did not read your memo and don't realize they are supposed to 'come around'.

These comments are posted to show what the response is and rather than address it, consider it or do ANYTHING OF VALUE you chose to insult, mock and denigrate them.

Way to 'win them over'... :rolleyes:

GrizzlyGuy
01-07-2010, 10:26 AM
There has been some middle ground proposed.

However, it is quite difficult to find people that are also minorities with the guts to come to an OC event. Seriously, I have tried. I wish that the guys (even better, the girls) in the Marksmanship Club were up to it but most of the people in the Club don't even own a firearm (I think we MAY have a 20-30% ownership rate) and even fewer are up to snuff on even the most basic of laws.

I do have an idea for an OC meet that I brought up to Wildhawker that I am half serious about. It involves minorities only and it will be, shall we say, a spectacular sight. I may get Enthusiast to help me with it too. :)

That's excellent, I wish I lived down in your neck of the woods and could lend a hand. My neck of the woods is much less hostile to us and almost like America. :)

Diversity in the group is a definite plus. But even if the current activists appear to fit the anti's stereotype of us(?) and won't stand down, them doing the activism in ways that are less provocative and more likely to portray a positive image to the unwashed masses (what I was saying to Gene here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3603243#post3603243)) would at least reduce the risk of unintended negative outcomes without cramping anyone's style too much. Once incorporation provides more "body armor", the fight could then return to the more challenging areas.

wildhawker
01-07-2010, 10:51 AM
GG, as I noted here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3603756&postcount=232), the reality is that we can dream up alternatives all day long but those who are actively UOCing are not those with the inclination to work with alternatives. However, I'm quite open to being proven wrong and would gladly give some of my time to assist anyone truly interested in putting in some hard work.

Sgt Raven
01-07-2010, 11:14 AM
Is there a giant mythical wall that runs the length of California so that citizens here cannot see how normal it is to open carry in AZ and NV, is the concept/ scene really that alien to them. Im guessing when they visit the local free states and see open carry there they don't think much of it. But when back here people act like your a serial killer.
......snip.....
As for that one guy, he can go back to England or Australiar its not his place to even make a negative comment. Man i want to give him a piece of my mind.

You're wrong those are the type of people when in Az and they see someone walking around the Mall or WalMart with a loaded gun on their hip, they call 911 and say.
"there's a man with a gun"
then the dispatcher will ask
"what's he doing with the gun"? "Is he flashing it around or pointing it at people"?
and the person will answer
"he has it in a holster on his hip"
And the Police will chalk it up to another crazy Californian.
:rolleyes:

GrizzlyGuy
01-07-2010, 11:27 AM
GG, as I noted here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3603756&postcount=232), the reality is that we can dream up alternatives all day long but those who are actively UOCing are not those with the inclination to work with alternatives. However, I'm quite open to being proven wrong and would gladly give some of my time to assist anyone truly interested in putting in some hard work.

Point taken Wildhawker, I guess I'm just an eternal optimist. I keep hoping that influential and respected folks on either/both sides of the UOC issue can find some not-yet-tried method of steering those folks to an alternative that at least mitigates some of the risk.

I fully realize that herding cats is really-really hard if not impossible. Sometimes enticing the stray cats to run in a slightly different direction is the only shot you've got, and that can still be quite a challenge.

NorCalMama
01-07-2010, 11:36 AM
Way to 'win them over'... :rolleyes:


Sometimes one gets frustrated by the blatant lack of respect for the Bill of Rights as a whole. To read firsthand the sheer and utter ignorance of some leads me to feel very angry. And rightly so. Ultimately, I resent that there are people who want to ignore one of our basic Rights while championing the First Amendment. It's not my job to "win them over", it's my job to uphold and defend my Constitutional Rights.
I'd also like to say something. I don't know if I necessarily think OC is the right way to get people on "our side" because we have been SO accustomed to only LE openly carrying and when a non LE is "brandishing" a firearm, people are concerned. We need to raise public awareness in a constructive way. I don't know how effective it is to OC in the Bay Area. I think it's a "baby steps" process if we want to "win them over".

wildhawker
01-07-2010, 11:55 AM
It's important to note that we're seeing most of this activity by those new to OC; many of the original OC proponents have reached out to this generation of activists. While ipser is skeptical of my position that UOC will likely continue using the same model, I've seen nothing that would show any intention of doing otherwise. I'm quite certain that we'll be reading a thread on UOC in WC in a month.

I'm in Dublin and within 15 minutes of both Livermore and WC; I'll buy a cup of coffee for anyone who'd be interested in discussing it in person.

bruceflinch
01-07-2010, 8:07 PM
Okay, then I agree with this assessment and will further call b.s. to the open carriers that think they can get loaded in under 2 seconds.

Does that include the draw? Seriously.

I don't see the point of carrying the semi-auto w/ an empty mag.

I think I'd carry a revolver unloaded & go for a speed loader. I know I could I could load an unholstered revo in less than 2 sec. With the draw? I'll have to practice & get back to you on that. ;)

This story was covered in the Contra Costa Times quite positively, which surprised me.

gotgunz
01-07-2010, 11:34 PM
From holstered going about your business to threatened, draw, load and on target.

I'm not holding my breathe. And as much as I like wheel guns (and carry one quite often) I don't think I could do it either; but then again I am already loaded so there is not point in trying.

Kid Stanislaus
01-07-2010, 11:56 PM
I only hope that McDonald and Sykes can take effect before the California Legislature makes UOC impossible...
It's a race between two groups who don't think strategically. Sadly, I'm worried its one of the few races that a legislature may be able to win...

-Gene

You can bet yer bippy that at EVERY STAGE of this whole thing the CA liberals are going to be throwing roadblocks in our way that'll take the courts to remove. Those people who're absolutely GIDDY over the outcome of incorporation are going to be sadly disappointed when all the changes they're anticipating do not come right away. It's going to be a long and drawn out battle and I'll probably be dead and buried before it gets settled. You younger folk may have to be satisfied with the notion that your grandchildren will have their gun rights restored.

wildhawker
01-08-2010, 12:12 AM
Kid, I'm not sure how you got there from Gene's comments. Our fight will be lifelong, sure, but the major cases will have been resolved in this decade.

gotgunz
01-08-2010, 4:07 AM
Kid, I'm not sure how you got there from Gene's comments. Our fight will be lifelong, sure, but the major cases will have been resolved in this decade.

I'd love to share your optimism but the unfortunate fact is that there are people in our own ranks that will make it increasingly difficult to make changes in California based on their own idiotic beliefs and, more importantly, their actions.

Sometimes "we" are our own worse enemies.