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volcanic
01-05-2010, 4:48 PM
What is the legality of carrying an unloaded rifle in the storage compartment under the rear seats of a truck?

The storage compartment closes and latches and the seats fold over it.

Also, is it okay to carry the ammo in the same storage compartment, but in a seperate container (pouch)?

Any clarification is appreciated. I want to be able to have a truck gun available.

GrizzlyGuy
01-05-2010, 5:01 PM
A rifle is a long gun, so it doesn't (typically) meet the definition of a concealable firearm in 12025 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12025.html). I said "typically" because YMMV for a carbine:

Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

Ammo in the same container is fine. It doesn't necessarily need to be in a separate container, it could be loose in the main container, in a magazine (magazine not in rifle), etc.

Long gun transport (but not possession) is exempted from the state school zone law (626.9 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/626.9.html)) but not from the federal GFSZ law (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones#Law). The container would need to be locked to comply with the federal law while in school zones, and a locked container would also assure compliance with 12025 (in case a LEO/DA claimed it was 'capable of being concealed upon the person').

Registered assault weapons may be different, someone else would have to provide info in that case.

volcanic
01-05-2010, 5:27 PM
The gun in question would be a Mosin Nagant M38, so I don't think concealment is an issue.

What is the definition of locked in this situation? The storage compartment closes all the way and has a turning latch that must be turned to open, but does not require a key.


Thanks for the info.

bwiese
01-05-2010, 5:31 PM
Unless it "locks" it's not locked.

That's quite OK for general rifle transport, but you wanna be locked if you're traversing school zones (and there are a ton and you don't always know where they are - Montessori, private schools, juvenile work training "ROP" facilities, etc.)

sac550
01-05-2010, 8:41 PM
Rifles are not subject to state school zone laws because they are not concealable firearm. Federal gunzone has been overturned by the courts.

bwiese
01-05-2010, 8:50 PM
Rifles are not subject to state school zone laws because they are not concealable firearm. Federal gunzone has been overturned by the courts.

Hmm, maybe you have me. Double check. Cite?

ChuckBooty
01-05-2010, 8:57 PM
What about a shotgun with a tacstar side-saddle?

sac550
01-05-2010, 9:01 PM
the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 was enacted as section 1702 of the Crime Control Act of 1990 (Pub.L. 101-647, 18 U.S.C. 922(q)) on November 29, 1990.

It was subsequently declared to be an unconstitutional exercise of Congressional authority under the Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution by the United States Supreme Court, and was therefore voided. This case, United States v. Lopez (1995), was the first time in over half a century that the Supreme Court limited Congressional authority to legislate under the Commerce Clause.

See also United States v. Morrison (2000), in which the U.S. Supreme Court also ruled that Congress lacked the authority to enact such laws even when there was evidence of aggregate effect.

I have confirmed this with ATF. The courts said the interstate commerce clause didn't apply to school zones. Remember most federal gun laws ONLY apply when there is an interstate nexus with the gun. For example, if you had a misdo DV conviction over ten years old, the fed's could not prosecute you for possession of a gun made in in CA (Bryco or Calico) because the gun never traveled out of state and thus effected interstate commerce. CA couldn't prosecute you either because 12021(c)(1) is a 10 year ban.

Alaric
01-05-2010, 9:40 PM
the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 was enacted as section 1702 of the Crime Control Act of 1990 (Pub.L. 101-647, 18 U.S.C. 922(q)) on November 29, 1990.

It was subsequently declared to be an unconstitutional exercise of Congressional authority under the Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution by the United States Supreme Court, and was therefore voided. This case, United States v. Lopez (1995), was the first time in over half a century that the Supreme Court limited Congressional authority to legislate under the Commerce Clause.

See also United States v. Morrison (2000), in which the U.S. Supreme Court also ruled that Congress lacked the authority to enact such laws even when there was evidence of aggregate effect.

I have confirmed this with ATF. The courts said the interstate commerce clause didn't apply to school zones. Remember most federal gun laws ONLY apply when there is an interstate nexus with the gun. For example, if you had a misdo DV conviction over ten years old, the fed's could not prosecute you for possession of a gun made in in CA (Bryco or Calico) because the gun never traveled out of state and thus effected interstate commerce. CA couldn't prosecute you either because 12021(c)(1) is a 10 year ban.


Interesting how you quoted wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990) but omitted the ever-so-crucial next sentence:

Congress re-enacted the law in the GFSZ Act of 1996, following the Supreme Court's ruling, correcting the technical defects identified by the Court by adding wording placing the burden on the prosecutor to prove an additional element, that the "firearm has moved in or otherwise affects interstate commerce."

So it appears that the federal GFSZ is still in effect, but the burden of proof is now higher. Show me a gun that hasn't moved at some point in interstate commerce (since Bryco's and Calico's aren't actually all that common)...

sac550
01-05-2010, 9:44 PM
They did amend in 1996. But the Supreme Court decided the case in 2000 that said Congress doesn't have the authority. So what Congress did in 1996 was overturned.

ChuckBooty
01-05-2010, 9:54 PM
They did amend in 1996. But the Supreme Court decided the case in 2000 that said Congress doesn't have the authority. So what Congress did in 1996 was overturned.

Source?

Alaric
01-05-2010, 9:55 PM
Looks like it is still awaiting a "judicial test".

The Federal Gun Free School Zone Act ("GFSZA") has already been held as unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court (United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995), which held that "The Act exceeds Congress' Commerce Clause authority). Congress subsequently revised the GFSZA without fixing the basic flaw. The revised statute is currently in effect awaited a judicial test.

http://www.vcdl.org/new/fallschurch.html

ALSystems
01-06-2010, 6:19 AM
A rifle is a long gun, so it doesn't (typically) meet the definition of a concealable firearm in 12025 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12025.html). I said "typically" because YMMV for a carbine:

Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.


If instead of a Mosin Nagant, would an AR-7 be considered a "concealable firearm" when it is disassembled and everything is stored in the stock? :confused:

pullnshoot25
01-06-2010, 7:46 AM
http://caopencarry.blogspot.com/2009/12/open-carry-faq.html

pullnshoot25
01-06-2010, 7:47 AM
If instead of a Mosin Nagant, would an AR-7 be considered a "concealable firearm" when it is disassembled and everything is stored in the stock? :confused:

No. It is all about barrel length.

pullnshoot25
01-06-2010, 7:48 AM
What about a shotgun with a tacstar side-saddle?

That is perfectly fine. See People v. Clark

http://caopencarry.blogspot.com/2009/12/open-carry-faq.html

Decoligny
01-06-2010, 8:02 AM
Rifles are not subject to state school zone laws because they are not concealable firearm. Federal gunzone has been overturned by the courts.

The Federal Gun Free School Zone Act of 1990 was overturned as unconstitutional. They then passed the slightly modified Federal Gun Free School Zone Act of 1996 (Public Law 104-208).

This "new improved" version has not been challenged in the courts. It is almost identical to the 1990 one with some new language addressing "Interstate Commerce". I don't think anyone has ever been charged under the 1996 Act, but am not 100% sure.

tombinghamthegreat
01-06-2010, 2:16 PM
Rifle/ammo/ loaded mags can be right next to each other, even touching as long as it is not in a position to be fired from(people vs clark, PC12031). Now since 12025 only applies to handguns you could "conceal" a long gun without a locked container, put it in your lap, UOC, "Guitar party"(have long gun in a guitar case, use search button) ect.

Now the school zones are a bit tricky since it is unclear if the federal gun zone saying long guns has to be in a locked container or locking gun rack applies to individuals or something about interstate commerce. The state school gun free zone applies to handguns.