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View Full Version : ..Question: Should I get SA or DA/SA~ Plz Help..


.40Cal
01-04-2010, 7:52 PM
In my other thread I'm debating on if I should get a 9mm or .40cal for target shooting/home defense.


Here, I'd like to get your opinions on Single Action or Double Action/Single Action seme-autos... (Not interested in Plastic guns, Glocks, XD's Smiths, etc). It's my personal choice.

Here's the reson for my question - Senario: Night time, I hear a loud noise in the kitchen. My heart begins to speed up, imagining things... I take out my semi-auto, chamber a round (I'd never keep a chambered gun), and walk slowly towards kitchen. I see some movement... before I have time to think or realize what it is, my finger has already touched the trigger - and it fires! Maybe it was a burglar, but I didn't really "mean" to shoot him. But SA action guns being a sensitive trigger would fire with a light touch (in ready mode).

Same situation with DA/SA, would avoid shooting in a haste/confussion, until you "really mean" to shoot it. (IMHO) Because, I'd chamber a round, then decock it. I would shoot the first round in a Double action mode, if I really "needed" to shoot at something. Hence my delima...

However, I've been told SA action handguns are more fun to shoot, and every shot is the same, so you can master them easily and well... There lays my reason of confussion.....

...What to get, and WHY? (Thanks in advance)...

HCz
01-04-2010, 7:57 PM
In such situations you won't feel much of difference. My very first force-on-force training utilized a SIG with a heavy DA pull. When I fired it, trigger pull was not my primary concern.

Get whichever you want, but practice with it. Most DA/SA guns will allow you to shoot in SA mode anyways.

Also I'm not a fan of moving around my house unless there is a really great need for it.

.40Cal
01-04-2010, 8:20 PM
In such situations you won't feel much of difference. My very first force-on-force training utilized a SIG with a heavy DA pull. When I fired it, trigger pull was not my primary concern.

Get whichever you want, but practice with it. Most DA/SA guns will allow you to shoot in SA mode anyways.

Also I'm not a fan of moving around my house unless there is a really great need for it.

I agree with it, I'm not a fan of moving around the house too. But say, you have a strong feeling there's something going on, a break in, or someone in your house, or... could be any situation...

I'm thinking in a SA gun - when a round is chamberd, hammer pulled back - it's a dangerous gun. Only way to go "Back" is to lower the hammer with a thumb, while trigger pulled...slowwwly. In a DA/SA gun you can decock it, and it's not so dangerous - it's like a revolver then. Am I right?

More info plz...

tiko
01-04-2010, 8:25 PM
I prefer a DA/SA with hammer down and a round chambered sits in my night stand. I got two, a SW686+ and a Sig220. All my 1911s and other guns are unloaded in the safe.

Noobert
01-04-2010, 8:37 PM
I'm thinking in a SA gun - when a round is chamberd, hammer pulled back - it's a dangerous gun. Only way to go "Back" is to lower the hammer with a thumb, while trigger pulled...slowwwly. In a DA/SA gun you can decock it, and it's not so dangerous - it's like a revolver then. Am I right?

More info plz...

I suppose you can also mag release, rack, catch, top off mag, dry fire too, or are you talking about hammer down, round chambered?

1JimMarch
01-04-2010, 8:38 PM
The DA/SA autoloader concept is borderline insane unless you spend the time to absolutely master it. Few people do. It was one of a number of insane concepts the Nazis came up, part of a list that includes:

* Gas chambers.

* Driving Jewish nuclear physicists out of the country who were then bound and determined to nuke you until you glowed if you'd lasted long enough.

* Invading Russia and then hanging around until winter while dressed in summer uniforms.

* Relying on hardware obscurity for your encryption.

* ETC!

Dealing with a gun that auto-mutates on you in the middle of a gunfight is not something I ever want to get involved in. Ever.

DA/SA revolvers are a different matter. There, you control when you want an SA shot.

elSquid
01-04-2010, 8:39 PM
I'm thinking in a SA gun - when a round is chamberd, hammer pulled back - it's a dangerous gun. Only way to go "Back" is to lower the hammer with a thumb, while trigger pulled...slowwwly.

If you want to "make safe" a SA auto, either apply the manual safety or drop the mag and clear the chamber. Mucking about with the hammer is an accident waiting to happen.

In a DA/SA gun you can decock it, and it's not so dangerous - it's like a revolver then. Am I right?

For the first shot...then it's just like a SA auto. :)

If you want a true 'revolver-like" auto, look for a DAO ( Double action only ) gun. Very simple manual of operations, and no decocker to worry about.

-- Michael

cmace22
01-04-2010, 8:40 PM
Just put a 40lb trigger on it then your GTG right. I guess a 1911 isnt an option for you then. I like to think that I have trained enough not to put my finger on the trigger untill im ready to put a hole in something. I dont even drop the safety on my 1911 untill Im ready to fire.

But you are right you do have a longer heavier in most cases trigger pull with a DA gun. If that gives you peace of mind look at sig.

twotap
01-04-2010, 8:43 PM
Your finger should not be on the trigger until you ID your target. DA or SA doesn't change the outcome..

sp_train_77
01-04-2010, 8:46 PM
The value of a double-action-only firearm is that the trigger pull is the same round after round. No adjustment of grip or finger position required. You practice one trigger pull and do not have to worry about hat mode you gun is in when confronted with trouble.

I taught police and security types firearms use for eight years, double action revolver only. Only allowed them to shoot double action. the folks who insisted on shooting single action and not practicing double action fire consistently ranked at the lowest of their groups on repeat qualifications.

nn3453
01-04-2010, 8:50 PM
Without trying to be argumentative...


I take out my semi-auto, chamber a round (I'd never keep a chambered gun)


Why is that? Is it going to go off on its own?


, and walk slowly towards kitchen. I see some movement... before I have time to think or realize what it is, my finger has already touched the trigger - and it fires! Maybe it was a burglar, but I didn't really "mean" to shoot him. But SA action guns being a sensitive trigger would fire with a light touch (in ready mode).


You have no business pointing your gun at things you don't mean to shoot. Second mistake, you have no business touching the trigger. Yes, adrenaline makes you do stupid things. That is why there is muzzle discipline. When your adrenaline is pumping, you will likely yank that DA trigger like it is the lightest thing ever made. Muzzle discipline and keeping your finger away from the trigger are the things that work when it comes down to it. Not SA or DA.

This is why in IDPA or in other action shooting sports, lack of muzzle and trigger discipline is a warning followed by a disqualification (or an automatic disqualification if the guy running the match is anal enough). It is supposed to simulate "real life" situations.


...What to get and WHY?

No offense but your thought experiment displays lack of training. You need training and a lot of practice. It is likely that you are going to miss the guy anyway, unless you are really good under pressure and have practiced a lot. That is why shotguns are better HD weapons. Worry about SA/DA later. That being said, for a carry or HD gun, I'd prefer a DA because worrying about a safety is the last thing I want to do. Don't take it the wrong way. Cheers.

ojisan
01-04-2010, 8:52 PM
Your home defense gun should be different than a range gun.
A long heavy DA pull is safety for you, too, when you have the "night time shakes".
It makes your shots deliberate, not accidental.
Might help keep you from shooting family or friends.

We would all prefer not to move around, but some of us have children who sleep in other parts of the house that need to be checked on and guarded.
Moving is inevitable.
A stumble in the dark on a target triggered gun can easily cause an unintended discharge.

Criminals use surprise as their biggest advantage.
You should, too.
Racking a slide to chamber a round or making any other noise may alert the Bad Guy that you are awake and on the move.
He has the element of surprise back on his side now.
He knows you are coming, you don't know where he is.
Do not think he will run when he hears the slide rack, maybe you are lucky and he does, maybe he just waits to shoot you with his gun or try to take your gun.

Target identification is critical...you must have good flashlight to go with your gun.
The flashlight should not be used until you are in position to illuminate the potential target.
Again, if you use the flashlight to look around, you loose the element of surprise.
You should be familiar with your house enough to move around in the dark easily and quietly.
Night lights in various rooms and positions should give you enough illumination to see everywhere without turning on room lights or the flashlight.

My personal HD preference in an auto is a DA / SA with a manual safety on, a round chambered, and the mag full.

picasso
01-04-2010, 9:03 PM
You have no business pointing your gun at things you don't mean to shoot. Second mistake, you have no business touching the trigger. Yes, adrenaline makes you do stupid things. That is why there is muzzle discipline. When your adrenaline is pumping, you will likely yank that DA trigger like it is the lightest thing ever made. Muzzle discipline and keeping your finger away from the trigger are the things that work when it comes down to it. Not SA or DA.


+1
DA/SA will be a good recommendation. At least it'll be a long pull for the first shot if decocked and chambered.

nn3453
01-04-2010, 9:04 PM
Your home defense gun should be different than a range gun.


I agree with most everything that you posted except this should be modified to "You can have range guns with light 2lb triggers, but your home defense gun should be a duty range gun" i.e., it needs to go to the range with you. You need to be intimately familiar with how your HD gun works including clearing malfunctions and practice. A HD situation is no place or time to learn it.

bombadillo
01-04-2010, 9:07 PM
sounds like you need one of two things:

A double/single revolver with exposed hammer in a caliber with lots of choices of ammo like .357 or .44

Something like my ruger p345d. It has a decocker that allows me to chamber a round, decock it, and store it with it on safe that way. When I pick it up, flip off the decocker leaving it in a double action state and when you fire it, goes back to single action. The thing I like is the double strike capability where if one goes click chambered, you can pull it again in double action. If it still doesn't fire, you rack the slide, it clears and puts in a new round and fires from single action. You get the idea.

.40Cal
01-04-2010, 9:49 PM
Your home defense gun should be different than a range gun.
A long heavy DA pull is safety for you, too, when you have the "night time shakes".
It makes your shots deliberate, not accidental.
Might help keep you from shooting family or friends.

We would all prefer not to move around, but some of us have children who sleep in other parts of the house that need to be checked on and guarded.
Moving is inevitable.
A stumble in the dark on a target triggered gun can easily cause an unintended discharge.

Criminals use surprise as their biggest advantage.
You should, too.
Racking a slide to chamber a round or making any other noise may alert the Bad Guy that you are awake and on the move.
He has the element of surprise back on his side now.
He knows you are coming, you don't know where he is.
Do not think he will run when he hears the slide rack, maybe you are lucky and he does, maybe he just waits to shoot you with his gun or try to take your gun.

Target identification is critical...you must have good flashlight to go with your gun.
The flashlight should not be used until you are in position to illuminate the potential target.
Again, if you use the flashlight to look around, you loose the element of surprise.
You should be familiar with your house enough to move around in the dark easily and quietly.
Night lights in various rooms and positions should give you enough illumination to see everywhere without turning on room lights or the flashlight.

My personal HD preference in an auto is a DA / SA with a manual safety on, a round chambered, and the mag full.

EXACTLY my point...

+1
DA/SA will be a good recommendation. At least it'll be a long pull for the first shot if decocked and chambered.

Now, you guys are getting my point...

Maybe I wasn't able to explain better before. I also prefer THIS - DA/SA, decocked, and chambered... That way if you HAVE to shoot, you don't have to work the safety or anything else - JUST POINT & PULL..

However, there are many Hi-Power, 1911, etc fans that believe in the SA models. I'd like to know the Pro's for SA in SUCH situations...

P.S: The gun would "mainly" be for shooting range/practice target shooting. HD is the 2nd purpose for it.

9mmepiphany
01-04-2010, 10:53 PM
taking your concerns into consideration, i think you'd best be served by either a DA/SA pistol or maybe even a Sig DAK with it's lighter, but still long, DAO trigger stroke.

the DA trigger stroke, either for the first shot or for every shot, isn't hard to learn if it is taught correctly to begin with. it does require some followup practice, but so would any trigger system you choose.

the important thing is to get some training and i'm not talking about a "tactical class"; what i'm talking about is a shooting class that will teach sight alignment and trigger control. then it should progress to keeping the gun running through mag changes...then you'll be ready to try IDPA

cineski
01-04-2010, 11:08 PM
After going through what you've gone through, in addition to having owned every platform available, I've found through my own experience that Glock is the best home defense platform available.

chad68
01-04-2010, 11:44 PM
There are some good points made here on DA vs single action. For home defense really either one is better than no gun at all.

IMO if you only had one gun for both uses, I would go with something like a Sig, which is what I'm getting mostly for sporting use but I could use it for home defense as well. You can have a round chambered with it decocked and the heavy trigger pull is essentially the safety for only the first round fired.

If you're at the range and want all 10+1 rounds to have light SA trigger pull for target use, you can have that too.

For home defense I just use a 38 special S&W snub nose hamerless DA only revolver. Just point and pull. No external hammer, safety or noisy slides to mess with. I trust a wheel gun to any semi auto, even a Glock or Sig. One thing I don't like about mag guns for life and death is if the 1st round is a dud, you loose time and need to slide and eject the dud round. A DA only revolver you just keep pulling the trigger until you get your desired results.

Another thing is it's not a good idea to leave a mag loaded for months or years as it wears out the spring and can affect the reliablity. Revolvers don't have this problem. Revolvers biggest problem is only having 5 rounds in it. After 1 or 2 shots doubt anybody would hang around inyour house for long and can give you time to grab your target gun.

EDIT

one more thing i would like to add is learn how to use your gun in total darkness. Practive with fake ammo of course. This is another area my 38 shines in.

picasso
01-05-2010, 12:37 AM
one more thing i would like to add is learn how to use your gun in total darkness. Practive with fake ammo of course. This is another area my 38 shines in.

Isn't it against the commandments of gun safety? "Be sure of your target and its surroundings"

Maybe not in total darkness but enough light to know your target.

chad68
01-05-2010, 12:50 AM
Isn't it against the commandments of gun safety? "Be sure of your target and its surroundings"

Maybe not in total darkness but enough light to know your target.

Let me clarify. Learn how to be able to use your safety, switches, releases etc. in darkness, so when you reach for it out of the nightstand with the lights off or power cut, not near a light etc, you can operate the gun (prep/chamber a round etc) in total darkness.

I didn't mean making shots at an invisable target. This is why I like my snub. There is nothing to think about.

picasso
01-05-2010, 1:04 AM
'got it. Yes of course...

9mmepiphany
01-05-2010, 1:06 AM
Another thing is it's not a good idea to leave a mag loaded for months or years as it wears out the spring and can affect the reliablity.

actually leaving them loaded doesn't weaken the springs of magazines. working the springs is what weakens them...that is loading and unloading them to rotate them