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phil conrad
12-14-2005, 12:04 PM
Hello,
I am thinking about buying a legal AR. I am not interested in any of the "grey" area ones. From what I have seen I have the following options. I gather that Bushmaster makes a ready to go model. I also understand that there is some question about the material that it is made from.
I see there is a company called Vulcan that makes complete rifles.
I see that the is a company "GB"? sales that modifies a traditional Colt or Bushmaster for here.
Finally I gather that I can buy just a modified receiver from Fab 10 or Vulcan and assemble my own.
Since this will be my first AR I am thinking one that is pre assembled would be best for me. I would use the rifle for targets or general plinking.
What do you think, or have I missed any ideas ?

Thank you

Rascal
12-14-2005, 12:42 PM
Hi Phil and welcome to the site.
You pretty much summed it all up.
Any one of the full rifles will do the trick. It just depends on how much money you want to soak into one of these rifles.

glock_this
12-14-2005, 12:43 PM
phil - I am in the same boat as you so I will watch this thread with interest. As I have found, you are generally on par with your reserach. There are other companies that just make a 'lower' besides FAB-10 and Vulcan.

GB Sales has their own modified Bushmasters that have the recievers welded - I saw them they look nice to a novice and the weld looks clean. Full guns only, will not sell lowers. mag is bolted in. They do do Colts, but more expensive and the guy told me they do not do them often.

Bushmaster themselves make their carbon version as an entire gun, not selling lowers. Seem to be nice, saw it and held it, but people seem down on the carbon on all these forums I read.

Seems Vulcan gets some mediocre feedback on these forums for quality. and they glue in their mags as well - but I am not sure if I also read they also bolt them or went to bolts? anyway, what i REALLY like about these lowers is that they have a 20 round mag that is 10 round limited. So, you at least look like you have a real, un-neutered gun as the magazine still hangs down. I dig that. I habe only seen that they sell the CA legal lowers, but not a built up rifle with the CA legal lower. but, I could be wrong. I think you buy their lower and build yourself.

So, my reserach shows that, unless you can find a built one used, to get a FULL rifle built you could do Bushmaster carbon or GB Sales Bushmasters. But for just lowers and build your own, you can do Vulcan, Hesse, FAB-10 and even a few others I forgot already.

again, I am new to this so could be wrong in some areas and am open to constructive criticism, but think I have it pretty clear....

PanzerAce
12-14-2005, 1:03 PM
First off, dont dismiss carbon right off the bat. They do, after all, use it for far more important stuff than guns (like airplane wings) and properly done, Carbon would probably be a great choice.

glock_this
12-14-2005, 1:59 PM
First off, dont dismiss carbon right off the bat. They do, after all, use it for far more important stuff than guns (like airplane wings) and properly done, Carbon would probably be a great choice.

I personally am not dismissing carbon in any way. just saying what I read in most posts as a general consensus.

As a guy who races carbon bikes for nearly 10 years - I am the last person you need to convince about the benefits of carbon. if you only knew, most of my cycling buddies call me the "carbon junkie" as I have frames, forks, bars, cranks, pedals, seats, posts, stems, bar end plugs, pumps, all made from carbon fibre.

the key to your statement though, and others, is "properly done". There are a lot of ways and methods in laying carbon (by hand, by machine, pressure mold, carbon type, weave directionality, voids, etc.) that determine if is is done properly for that application and it seems what I read about those carbon receviers thus far is not what i would have hoped.

rssslvr
12-14-2005, 2:03 PM
i agree.my ffl had a carbon 15 last time i was in there and it seemed to be really well made.i am not a fan of plastic that is why i did not buy a su-16 but would cosider getting a bushmaster carbon 15.if you want a cali stripper clip ar it wouldn't be a bad choice

PanzerAce
12-14-2005, 3:42 PM
glock this, had I known that you raced bikes, I would have not said anything :D (I race sail boats, and carbon fiber is REALLY useful to me, can be scary as hell though, seeing what it will do)

As for being up to your standards: they are obviously a popular enough rifle to make a cali only version. On the other hand, I have never shot one, so I cant give any first hand account. *shrugs*.

glock_this
12-14-2005, 4:23 PM
glock this, had I known that you raced bikes, I would have not said anything :D (I race sail boats, and carbon fiber is REALLY useful to me, can be scary as hell though, seeing what it will do)

As for being up to your standards: they are obviously a popular enough rifle to make a cali only version. On the other hand, I have never shot one, so I cant give any first hand account. *shrugs*.

yeah, raced triathlons for nearly 15 years as of end of this 2005 season. I have/had sponsorships with some very well know carbon fibre bike makers. so.... I BELIEVE!!!

anyway, I see your point about them making something specifically for cali, so there must be something there that is right and trusted - but I have read several times that the carbon does not crack if there is an issue, it disintegrate. and, we both know what comes of disitegrating carbon fibre - high speed micro size spears/splinters. so, my personal concern is that IF a round goes off somehow or there is some other catastrophic failure, can that lower contain it?

Also, while I was out riding down here in SoCal for a few hours, I got to thinking that the other thing that I have an issue with with the carbon version is no chance to convert it if I moved or laws changed. with the Vulcan, I am reading that since the mags are epoxyed in, it is possible to pull out that mag and have an open receiver. With the carbon version, the receiver is molded over and shut for good.

Again, I dig carbon and was sold the second I saw it (weight is much lighter as well), but others got me thinking twice, now you have me thinking a 3rd time.

glock_this
12-14-2005, 4:25 PM
if you want a cali stripper clip ar

hmmm - is there any other kind for people in cali?

Stanze
12-14-2005, 4:39 PM
hmmm - is there any other kind for people in cali?

Huh boy...:eek:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=81

Rascal
12-14-2005, 4:53 PM
hmmm - is there any other kind for people in cali?

Yes, but not for long. :(

PanzerAce
12-14-2005, 4:54 PM
yah, atleast with sailing, if any carbon fiber is going to be failing, its not going to be near your head. I dont know quite how they do the race masts on boats, but I have seen carbon fiber masts bend WAY over. But your point about the round containment. You would prob have to talk to bushmaster about that.

Kali_M14
12-14-2005, 5:34 PM
another Kali AR you might consider is the one being developed by tactical customs http://www.tacticalcustoms.com(look in new products). They are working on an AR that has a 30rd profile mag that holds 10 rds single stack, and is loaded on the side rather than breaking it open like other models. They said that they are almost complete and would probably go into production in jan. If your interested, give them a call and ask for mike and tell them Thames sent you. I put in an order for one.

sintax
12-14-2005, 6:12 PM
I'm a little confused why someone would want a huge 30rd mag dangling down when you have no reason to have it. Seems totally pointless and a bit poseur-ish

glock_this
12-14-2005, 6:16 PM
another Kali AR you might consider is the one being developed by tactical customs http://www.tacticalcustoms.com(look in new products). They are working on an AR that has a 30rd profile mag that holds 10 rds single stack, and is loaded on the side rather than breaking it open like other models. They said that they are almost complete and would probably go into production in jan. If your interested, give them a call and ask for mike and tell them Thames sent you. I put in an order for one.

VERY interesting. I see no photos yet as I cannot totally visualize this setup. also, how do they know that will be a CA legal setup? will they supply DOj letter? you put in an order without seeing the setup? where in CA are they?

glock_this
12-14-2005, 6:29 PM
I'm a little confused why someone would want a huge 30rd mag dangling down when you have no reason to have it. Seems totally pointless and a bit poseur-ish

actually, it is a small 20 round mag that hangs down - not 30. As well, you (and most of us) would be lying to say that in certain areas, aesthetics did not matter to us. For me personally, I think the rifle is more true to form and original design (in the realm of 'looks') if it has 'some' sort of mag hanging out of the receiver. It just looks gutted and empty to me without it there. For you, this may not be the 'realm' where you care about looks, but for me.. I do.

Also, you missed part of the point in that having that hanging magazine implies that the receiver is still open and not closed over, which means in the future (if laws change or you move) you could pull the fixed mag oout and use a standard 30 round magazine.

lastly... poseur-ish? please. posing is the guy that comes to the range and talks all the crap, has all the costly gear (and then some), but cannot perform. I merely want that attribute for appeal to me. Also, as any one will know that if I show up at a range in CA with this setup, there is nothing in that mag as it is a 10 round limit in the fixed mag inside - so how would I be posing and to whom?

Kali_M14
12-14-2005, 6:44 PM
VERY interesting. I see no photos yet as I cannot totally visualize this setup. also, how do they know that will be a CA legal setup? will they supply DOj letter? you put in an order without seeing the setup? where in CA are they?

They are getting it approved for the PRK ala the Vulcan. basically you load the weapon by tilting it on its side. They are actually in nevada, and they are more than willing to talk toanyone about it. I really don't know much more than that. all they asked me for was $100 down and it is fully refundable. give them a call they will give you all the details

Rascal
12-14-2005, 7:31 PM
They are getting it approved for the PRK ala the Vulcan. basically you load the weapon by tilting it on its side. They are actually in nevada, and they are more than willing to talk toanyone about it. I really don't know much more than that. all they asked me for was $100 down and it is fully refundable. give them a call they will give you all the details

Did you ask them how long they have been working on this? Seems to me they have been working on this for a very long time, and still no product.

C.G.
12-15-2005, 4:49 AM
yeah, raced triathlons for nearly 15 years as of end of this 2005 season. I have/had sponsorships with some very well know carbon fibre bike makers. so.... I BELIEVE!!!

anyway, I see your point about them making something specifically for cali, so there must be something there that is right and trusted - but I have read several times that the carbon does not crack if there is an issue, it disintegrate. and, we both know what comes of disitegrating carbon fibre - high speed micro size spears/splinters. so, my personal concern is that IF a round goes off somehow or there is some other catastrophic failure, can that lower contain it?

Also, while I was out riding down here in SoCal for a few hours, I got to thinking that the other thing that I have an issue with with the carbon version is no chance to convert it if I moved or laws changed. with the Vulcan, I am reading that since the mags are epoxyed in, it is possible to pull out that mag and have an open receiver. With the carbon version, the receiver is molded over and shut for good.

Again, I dig carbon and was sold the second I saw it (weight is much lighter as well), but others got me thinking twice, now you have me thinking a 3rd time.

I guess PanzerAce never saw a carbon mast come down or a spinnaker pole splinter. My exact concern is the one you mentioned with the carbon lower if a round goes out of battery.

lazyman
12-15-2005, 1:57 PM
If I were you guy I would'nt spend my money on a cali AR I especially if they are going for 1000+ ( I think it's cheaper to build one ground up not sure on pricing of cali AR's). I'd either try and build one with a non-listed reciever in hopes that it gets banned or I'd get an M1A for the money though. I'd go with the M1A first though

MaceWindu
12-15-2005, 2:05 PM
If I were you guy I would'nt spend my money on a cali AR I especially if they are going for 1000+ ( I think it's cheaper to build one ground up not sure on pricing of cali AR's). I'd either try and build one with a non-listed reciever in hopes that it gets banned or I'd get an M1A for the money though. I'd go with the M1A first though

+1!!!

Neutered AR's for a $1K...real AR's are about $600:rolleyes:

M1A for sure...

MaceWindu

phil conrad
12-15-2005, 6:37 PM
+1!!!

Neutered AR's for a $1K...real AR's are about $600:rolleyes:

M1A for sure...

MaceWindu
Thanks for all of the info. I have 3 M1A'S in the different sizes. I am thinking this would be a different type of shooting experience. Has any one actually shot one of these ? How do they shoot ? Also are there any shops in the greater Los Angeles area that have them in stock ? Looking at pictures is one thing, bit I would like to actually see on in person.