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Swiss
01-04-2010, 10:30 AM
Just got off the phone with a guy at well known gun shop in Marin County. The guy I spoke with was adamant that a flash suppresor is illegal in CA even if it's on a BB configured rifle.

This goes against everything I've read here and in the Penal Code. I'm not currently able to collect the backup to refute his claim, but I will call him and walk him through his FUD if someone can post the relevant sections here.

He claims that local law enforcement and DA's have told him it's illegal. He also admitted thehe sells rifles with "birdcages" but claimed they are merely muzzle brakes.

Thanks!

Vtec44
01-04-2010, 10:51 AM
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:

(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.

PatriotnMore
01-04-2010, 11:02 AM
Just got off the phone with a guy at well known gun shop in Marin County. The guy I spoke with was adamant that a flash suppresor is illegal in CA even if it's on a BB configured rifle.

This goes against everything I've read here and in the Penal Code. I'm not currently able to collect the backup to refute his claim, but I will call him and walk him through his FUD if someone can post the relevant sections here.

He claims that local law enforcement and DA's have told him it's illegal. He also admitted thehe sells rifles with "birdcages" but claimed they are merely muzzle brakes.

Thanks!
It is if it has a detachable magazine. Either he wasn't listening, or he only received half the information. Meet him the other half way and explain the whole law.

wildhawker
01-04-2010, 11:06 AM
So they don't understand the law or the products they sell.

Print out a color copy of the flowchart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf).

Just got off the phone with a guy at well known gun shop in Marin County. The guy I spoke with was adamant that a flash suppresor is illegal in CA even if it's on a BB configured rifle.

This goes against everything I've read here and in the Penal Code. I'm not currently able to collect the backup to refute his claim, but I will call him and walk him through his FUD if someone can post the relevant sections here.

He claims that local law enforcement and DA's have told him it's illegal. He also admitted thehe sells rifles with "birdcages" but claimed they are merely muzzle brakes.

Thanks!

bwiese
01-04-2010, 11:14 AM
A flash hider is of "equal priority" or "equal evilness" as a pistol grip or folder/thumbhole/collapsible stock.

If the gun can legally have a pistol grip on it due to BB, it can have a flash hider too.

We're gonna see more of this crap as a new round of gunshops come online to OLLs and only understand a subset of the information.

ap3572001
01-04-2010, 12:12 PM
Gunshops ARE NOT A GOOD SOURCE of information. I learned that years ago. Depending on information needed , the best bet is to start with internet.

PIRATE14
01-04-2010, 2:23 PM
Gunshops ARE NOT A GOOD SOURCE of information. I learned that years ago. Depending on information needed , the best bet is to start with internet.

DAMN.....that's funny as hell........:43:

wildhawker
01-04-2010, 2:31 PM
I hate to agree with ap357 but the BS ratio in gun shops (even "friendly" ones) remains remarkably high. However, a number of us will be spending quite a lot of time and other resources in hopes of correcting this over the next year (and beyond).

DAMN.....that's funny as hell........:43:

Nodda Duma
01-04-2010, 2:41 PM
I hate to agree with ap357 but the BS ratio in gun shops (even "friendly" ones) remains remarkably high. However, a number of us will be spending quite a lot of time and other resources in hopes of correcting this over the next year (and beyond).

CA Firearms Law classes for Gun Dealers would be a GREAT idea.

btw, the FUD at the dealers out here in Ridgecrest needs correcting too. For some reason, most of them believe that bringing in off-list, unassembled lowers is illegal, and the one dealer who is doing so in town is therefore breaking the law.

-Jason

wildhawker
01-04-2010, 2:42 PM
Working on it in conjunction with the Right People. ;) :43:

CA Firearms Law classes for Gun Dealers would be a GREAT idea.

-Jason

PIRATE14
01-04-2010, 4:19 PM
I hate to agree with ap357 but the BS ratio in gun shops (even "friendly" ones) remains remarkably high. However, a number of us will be spending quite a lot of time and other resources in hopes of correcting this over the next year (and beyond).

Well....am not disagreeing with him but that the first place to start for information is the internet....gotta be taken wit a grain of salt.....

Gunshops are either going to handle certain products or not.....every business will run as they see fit....no matter what you tell them or show them....

Even CG is loaded w/ opinions.....that not everyone agrees with....but does provide good information and is usually good enough....

ap3572001
01-04-2010, 4:33 PM
Folks. I did not mean that the gun shops are very poor source of information regarding AW issues and laws. Also I noticed , in general, they are not able to provide with accurate information .

audiophil2
01-04-2010, 5:03 PM
You would have to speak with the owner/manager if you want to get anywhere. Don't waste your time on anyone else until after they are properly trained. Keep in mind the FFL has a business at stake while you only have convenience. They will always err on the side of caution even if it costs them a few bucks worth of business.

tdaughg
01-04-2010, 6:08 PM
ok out with it, we want names. being a marin resident theres only 3 shops in town and 1 of them sells oll's and complete rifles and is a very active member here so i really hope it wasnt them. the other 2....well...i could see that happening.

gzinga
01-04-2010, 6:58 PM
I say just let it go and go somewhere else.....it is not worth it

TripleT
01-04-2010, 7:07 PM
Working on it in conjunction with the Right People. ;) :43:

I hope the "Right People" include somebody from the BOF, because without their "understanding" walking the narrow line can get expensive. :D

wildhawker
01-04-2010, 7:22 PM
TripleT, if we included BOF it would be for comic relief. ;)

ajaffe
01-04-2010, 10:13 PM
Well....am not disagreeing with him but that the first place to start for information is the internet....gotta be taken wit a grain of salt.....

Gunshops are either going to handle certain products or not.....every business will run as they see fit....no matter what you tell them or show them....

Even CG is loaded w/ opinions.....that not everyone agrees with....but does provide good information and is usually good enough....

Hector, I have to agree with the internet statement even if he did not mean it that way. Where did you and your crew get your information from? Was it from other gun stores? Was it from the internet or word of mouth from someone that got it from the internet? Sure the whole OLL and such movement may not have originated from the internet and started through research based on ink and paper, but the majority of the accurate and correct information is being passed on via the internet.

As far as shops sticking their necks out and have the possibility of being made examples of, then yes I believe their is a risk benefit ratio that needs to be examined based on each shop. But the law is the law and at this point in the game, ignorance of the law is just laziness.

By the way, thank you for being one of the companies that stick your neck out.

wildhawker
01-04-2010, 11:06 PM
I'm aware of who Hector is, and none of my comments were directed at him or CWS. However, I stand by my statement that gun stores remain a source of misinformation for our culture.

Hector, or any FFL, being present in a conversation does not change anything for me - we're all free to express our views within the bounds of the forum rules. I appreciate what he is and has done, but only my wife is royalty.

As far as lobbing insults, I don't see where anyone has in this thread.

People are hopefully aware that Hector (a.k.a. Pirate14) understands the gun laws so well, he was one of the two first gun stores willing to import OLLs into California (El Rojo was the other one). Lobbing insults at "gun stores in general" in his presence is a bit impolite, and also a bit of an over-generalization.

P.S. I owe the fact that I had OLLs before the group buys to both of their help.

Bill Carson
01-04-2010, 11:18 PM
I had a gun shop employee tell me that I could be charged with a felony for each round I had in a magazine in my trunk. 56 felony counts, LOL

Seesm
01-04-2010, 11:25 PM
Just got off the phone with a guy at well known gun shop in Marin County. The guy I spoke with was adamant that a flash suppresor is illegal in CA even if it's on a BB configured rifle.

This goes against everything I've read here and in the Penal Code. I'm not currently able to collect the backup to refute his claim, but I will call him and walk him through his FUD if someone can post the relevant sections here.

He claims that local law enforcement and DA's have told him it's illegal. He also admitted thehe sells rifles with "birdcages" but claimed they are merely muzzle brakes.

Thanks!

Tell him he is a idiot and send him to this post and he will read what I wrote and know it FOR SURE... JK :) try to educate him... Hopefully he learns... but you can fix everyone. They have to want to learn right?

PIRATE14
01-05-2010, 11:47 AM
Hector, I have to agree with the internet statement even if he did not mean it that way. Where did you and your crew get your information from? Was it from other gun stores? Was it from the internet or word of mouth from someone that got it from the internet? Sure the whole OLL and such movement may not have originated from the internet and started through research based on ink and paper, but the majority of the accurate and correct information is being passed on via the internet.

As far as shops sticking their necks out and have the possibility of being made examples of, then yes I believe their is a risk benefit ratio that needs to be examined based on each shop. But the law is the law and at this point in the game, ignorance of the law is just laziness.

By the way, thank you for being one of the companies that stick your neck out.

Well I got my information from number one being in the state for forty six years......TWO...read the laws that are on the books in black in white....

Now if you don't understand them....than don't do business in that arena...

CG as a group generalization thinks that everyone knows about OLL/OLR but overall its still pretty small....but its gettin bigger....good...

But your right if the Gun Shop is lazy or doesn't give a rats *** and than you calling them a idiot.....won't really help anyone....

You can approach them once or twice and if they don't change.....let'em jus to continue to sell guns and believe whatever they want....

When I jumped in on this thing...it was a big risk but a well thought out one...;) So, your welcome...

Now the internet is a tool.....powerful one and must be used along with a lot of other things......

Swiss
01-05-2010, 11:56 AM
I just spoke with the owner of this Marin County shop. He is clear on the law and has informed his employee of the BB-equipped rifle exemption to flash hiders.

And many thanks to all of you who contributed the PC section and flowchart reminder!

Swiss
01-07-2010, 6:02 PM
Closing out this story, I stopped by the gun shop today with a complimentary color print of the CalGuns Semi-Auto Rifle Flowchart. I even had it laminated, back to back.

The guy I had spoken to wasn't there but I did chat with several of his colleagues. They were well aware of what a BB does for semi-auto rifles and stated that local PD knew it too. At least one of them is a vet and long time CG member (thanks for your service). They promised to bring their buddy up to speed and will post the flowchart in a conspicuous location.

wildhawker
01-07-2010, 6:20 PM
Excellent outreach, Swiss - well done!

five.five-six
01-07-2010, 6:25 PM
Gunshops ARE NOT A GOOD SOURCE of information. I learned that years ago. Depending on information needed , the best bet is to start with internet.


bears repeating