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Gress
01-03-2010, 2:18 PM
Those of you who own both sw1911 and pc1911 or sw1911 performance center would you please tell me how different the feel of the gun is?
Those guns are made on same frame, correct? So I assume that the feel is about the same with PC version perhaps a little heavier. But the grip size and all controls/positions are the same, correct?

Also I've posted this question on another thread but got no responses.
I hope that you guys who own this pistol would help out.
------------
I was at Reeds today and the sales guy after checking the Roster:

PC1911 (Blued) / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 9/15/2010
PC1911 Stainless (Matte/Polished Stainless) / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 8/17/2010
PC1911-2 / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .38 Super 11/16/2010
SW 1911 (Olive) Laser Grip / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/17/2010
SW 1911 PD (Desert Tan) Laser Grip / Alloy, Steel, Stainless Steel Pistol 4.25" .45 ACP 2/17/2010
SW 1911 PD / Alloy, Steel, Stainless Steel Pistol 4.25" .45 ACP 2/17/2010
SW 1911 PD / Alloy, Steel, Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 2/24/2010
SW 1911 PD Gunsite / Stainless Steel, Steel, Alloy Pistol 4.25" .45 ACP 2/27/2010
SW1911 (Nickel) / Steel, Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 11/30/2010
SW1911 / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 11/8/2010
SW1911 Adj. Sights (Blue/Blk) / Steel, Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 9/20/2010
SW1911 Adj. Sights (Matte Stainless) / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 4/21/2010
SW1911 Fixed Sights / Steel, Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 4/5/2010
SW1911 Rolling Thunder / Steel, Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 11/30/2010
SW1911 SC / Alloy, Steel, Stainless Steel Pistol 4.25" .45 ACP 8/10/2010
SW1911 SC / Stainless Steel, Alloy Pistol 4.25" .45 ACP 7/11/2010
SW1911 SC / Stainless Steel, Alloy Pistol 5" .45 ACP 7/11/2010
SW1911DK / Steel, Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 4/5/2010

told me that SW1911 PC model # 170243
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...-1&isFirearm=Y is not the one on the roster listed as:
PC1911 (Blued) / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 9/15/2010

but rather
SW1911 Adj. Sights (Blue/Blk) / Steel, Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP 9/20/2010
if at all...He was not sure and got me confused too.
So is the model I am looking at a legal one and if yes which one on the roster exactly?

On smith-wesson.com the gun is listed as "sw1911 performance center", but on the picture of the gun on the side with PC logo there is a stamp which seems to read pc1911...so what is this gun official name anyway?

Thanks.

Ducman
01-03-2010, 3:16 PM
wait for "Sholling" he's our resident S&W expert here :)

retired
01-03-2010, 7:23 PM
sholling owns the #170243. It is the black Melonite one and boy, does it look, feel and shoot nice.:D He let me shoot at our range as I too am interested in possibly buying one.

9mmepiphany
01-03-2010, 9:23 PM
the Performance Center 1911 and the "regular" 1911 lines are very different.

the PC guns start over sized and are hand fitted...it is a semi-custom 1911 like a Baer, a Brown, a Wilson or a Nighthawk

the biggest difference between the PC 1911s and their other 1911s is that they use a different extractor for more reliable function

PutTogether
01-03-2010, 9:50 PM
Size, weight, control placement, etc are all the same. The difference is in attention to detail and quality. I don't own a Performance Center SW, so I can't speak to the exact differences - I just know they are "nicer." More hand fitting, better finish, etc.

There should be no difference in the dimensional aspects of the gun at all.

Edited to add: For what it's worth, here is a pic of my plain old regular SW1911. I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt anyone that isn't really "in" to guns, and that has an eye for handgun detail, will be best served by going with a very high end 1911 first time out. Just my opinion.

http://criminalhandbook.com/AR/photo.jpg

Gress
01-03-2010, 10:46 PM
Thank you guys for your inputs. I am still looking forward to getting the answer on the model nomenclature question.. :)
And yes, I am "in" the guns, have few of them and among others own a SW PC revolver.

PutTogether
01-03-2010, 11:29 PM
Thank you guys for your inputs. I am still looking forward to getting the answer on the model nomenclature question.. :)
And yes, I am "in" the guns, have few of them and among others own a SW PC revolver.

Smith and Wesson has the nasty habit of calling all of their guns "SW1911" and then adding descriptive terms. This can be a good or a bad thing, depending I guess, on how your dealer reads the roster. The important thing is the actual model number. Note that on smith's site for SKU 170243 (the gun you are looking at) it's model number is listed as SW1911 (just like every other 1911 they make.) It is important to see that it's real model number is NOT PC1911 or SW1911PC or anything like that. The model number is just plain old SW1911. From there you have to go buy description.

It helps to look at the roster as a whole here. They describe the nickel one, the alloy one, the olive one, and finally go on to mention the one that seems like it is 170243 .

"SW1911 Adj. sights (Blue/BLK) / Steel, Stainless steel. That seems to describe a blued 5" pistol with adjustable sights - ie, the gun you want.

Now, let's say someone decides to get super technical and reads that roster listing and interprets it only as covering the stainless steel version. Then it would seem like your gun is STILL on the good to go in California via the 12131.5 exemption, found below

12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm

I think you are A-OK.

Gress
01-03-2010, 11:45 PM
Thanks a lot PutTogether- very useful.
You have actually nailed it as we had exactly this type of discussion with the dealer. I am ok with SW1911 Adj. sights (Blue/BLK). The only thing I am wondering is what is then "PC1911 (Blued) / Stainless Steel Pistol 5" .45 ACP" desribes?

rgs1975
01-04-2010, 6:29 AM
I just bought my Performance Center 1911 a week or so ago. The dealer had no problems with DROSing it.

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/3310/92341719.jpg

bak
01-04-2010, 8:56 AM
I just bought my Performance Center 1911 a week or so ago. The dealer had no problems with DROSing it.

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/3310/92341719.jpg

Just like mine, but mine is under the 400 serial number. Would buy it again and it compares to several full custom guns I own. I paid under $1800 new for mine.

sholling
01-04-2010, 9:36 AM
I took a couple of days off from shooting boards but I'm back. :o

The controls of the SW1911 and PC1911 are almost the same. That makes sense because they're built on the same frame using different processes. The PC1911s are forged and rough machined oversized in the S&W factory and then finished machined in the Performance center to much tighter tolerances. Then all components are hand fitted just like a Les Baer, Wilson, or Ed Brown. As someone else said the extractors are different and the PC1911 adds a magazine well which adds 2oz and increases the size of the grip slightly. The thumb safety and trigger are upgraded and the trigger tuned to around 3-1/4lbs. The true match grade barrel and bushing are hand fitted for maximum accuracy and reliability. This review (http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/The+Peak+of+Performance) from Guns & Ammo goes into all of the details.

In the photos you'll see the PC1911's fine checkering for a good grip without ripping up your hands. I just wish they'd make a version with fixed combat sights available because I'd buy another in a heartbeat.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/My%20Toys%20800/IMG_0275a.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/My%20Toys%20800/PC1911NS.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/My%20Toys%20800/DSCF0525a.jpg

rgs1975
01-04-2010, 9:53 AM
A few things I think they could do to it to make it better.

Make the mainspring housing 30 LPI checkering instead of 20 LPI. This way it would match the 30 LPI checkering on the front strap as well.

Put some type of markings on the sights. As they come the front and rear are blank, just blue metal.

I'm making both these changes on mine as well as a couple other minor changes (extended slide release, extended mag release, away with the ambi safety and change to a tactical one side safety, new grips) to make it my perfect 1911.

rgs1975
01-04-2010, 10:22 AM
Oh yeah, I really like how it does not say "CAUTION - CAPABLE OF FIRING WITH MAGAZINE REMOVED" like it does on the standard SW1911's.

:)

twotap
01-04-2010, 12:38 PM
Great looking setup,What brand holster is that? I'm looking for IWB for left handed

Gress
01-04-2010, 6:56 PM
Nice looking guns, guys! Thanks for sharing.

sholling, thank you for very informative post. I shot sw1911 (rental at Reed's) and liked it better than Les Baer with regard to the feel in the hand and accuracy. Strange, but it gave me more comfort with the grip even though Les Baer is actually thinner (which usually works better for me as I have smallish hands). Les Baer being perfect gun too somehow was too rough on the front strap checkering for me and perhaps this is why my accuracy shooting S&W was better.
I was about to buy a Les Baer, but now seriously thinking of pc1911. How much thicker is the grip on pc vs regular one?
Thanks.

sholling
01-04-2010, 8:04 PM
Nice looking guns, guys! Thanks for sharing.

sholling, thank you for very informative post. I shot sw1911 (rental at Reed's) and liked it better than Les Baer with regard to the feel in the hand and accuracy. Strange, but it gave me more comfort with the grip even though Les Baer is actually thinner (which usually works better for me as I have smallish hands). Les Baer being perfect gun too somehow was too rough on the front strap checkering for me and perhaps this is why my accuracy shooting S&W was better.
I was about to buy a Les Baer, but now seriously thinking of pc1911. How much thicker is the grip on pc vs regular one?
Thanks.
The SW1911 and PC1911 grip thickness are exactly the same. That's pretty much a standard dimension between 1911s. The differences in feel usually come down to the grip safety and the undercutting (if any) of the trigger guard, and the extra length and weight of the mag well, plus any checkering. The important thing to me is that I want the pistol to ride deep in my hand which reduces muzzle flip. That's where an undercut trigger guard and a well designed grip safety help.

FWIW I have smallish (size medium glove) hands and have made some changes since the pictures were taken. I swapped in some temporary (cheap) slim grips and a STI short trigger. That makes it a perfect fit for my hand. I don't have photos yet. I'm still trying to figure out what color I want for the permanent ones.

The pictured holster earlier is a discontinued Milt Sparks OWB and the mag pouch is by Wild Bill.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/SWDougKoenigProfessionalSeriesSW191.jpg
This SW1911DK illustrates an undercut triggerguard.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/TRP-circle.jpg
This TRP illustrates a triggerguard that has not been undercut

Gress
01-04-2010, 8:40 PM
I wear medium size gloves and Les Baer fits very well, however somehow the trigger position was not the best for me. Perhaps different trigger would help, however SW1911 trigger which did not seem to be any shorter was more in place. The grip thickness was a little more on SW. Trigger guard undercutting seems very similar on both guns. All in all I am puzzled why my groups ended up being twice as good with SW as with Les Baer. The only distinct difference was the less comfortable more sharp front checkering on Baer vs more smooth on SW. Both guns were rentals and both were quite dirty, honestly. So I do not think the accuracy could be attributed to the condition of particular gun, but who knows.
After reading many reviews and owner's feedback on pc1911 it seems to be as good of a choice as Les Baer.

twotap
01-04-2010, 9:21 PM
Thanks,very nice!

PutTogether
01-04-2010, 9:49 PM
Sholling:

PLEASE stop posting pictures of that holster. It just keeps pissing me off that it isn't mine.

Gress
01-04-2010, 10:35 PM
VERY nice holster indeed! Can I see the other side, please? (Sorry PutTogether :D)

Gress
01-04-2010, 10:38 PM
A few things I think they could do to it to make it better.
...
Put some type of markings on the sights. As they come the front and rear are blank, just blue metal.
...

Oh, is it true? Regular sw1911 has white markings...

rgs1975
01-05-2010, 6:21 AM
Oh, is it true? Regular sw1911 has white markings...

Here are the sights on mine...

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6884/46300451.jpg

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/5733/60650205.jpg

kamagong
01-05-2010, 8:00 AM
Les Baer being perfect gun too somehow was too rough on the front strap checkering for me and perhaps this is why my accuracy shooting S&W was better.

Baer makes guns with smooth front straps.

Gress
01-05-2010, 6:55 PM
rgs1975,
Thank you for the pics. This is I admit somewhat disappointing.:(

Gress
01-05-2010, 6:55 PM
Baer makes guns with smooth front straps.

As an option, or on specific models?

kamagong
01-06-2010, 8:07 AM
As an option, or on specific models?

On specific models. My Concept II, which is on the roster BTW, has a smooth front strap.

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/6404/handgunpics001qo5.jpg[/QUOTE]

oghl888
01-06-2010, 11:05 AM
I have both the PC1911s and regular SW1911s. The PC1911 feels slightly more top heavy, and is heavier by a few oz. due to the extra materials on slide/frame and the magwell. The fit and finish is far superior, of course. The trigger is light and crisp, never measured it but guessing 3.5lb on the PC, and 5 lb on the regular.

The grip is slightly smaller on the PC due to the checkering. It seems that the grip starts out the same but checkering takes some material away from the front strap. I've switched to thin grips on all of them as I like thin grips better.

The other main difference I can feel is the thumb safety. the PC use larger Wilson type ambi safeties. They allow me to rest my thumb more securely on top. Interestingly, one of my regular SW1911 have a crispier snapping motion than the PC, while the PC 1911s are pretty good, I wish they are as crisp as the regular one I have.

Mechanical accuracy is good on the regular SW1911. One of my friend actually prefers it to his Les Baer TRS, and shoots better with my SW1911. The PC is definitly better. I can't quantify how much, but let me say that I usually have a few shots through one single hole that looks like only 1 bullet went through (at 7-10 yards, my eye sight is the determining factor after 10 yrds).

Overall, I think the PC1911 is the equal of the other higher end 1911s in the same price range or even slightly higher. I won't compare it to a Wilson Super Grade, but I would take a PC1911 over a LB TRS, a Brown SF, etc.

I am rambling on.... Let me know if I can answer any more questions.

zman
01-06-2010, 11:19 AM
...I would take a PC1911 over a LB TRS, a Brown SF, etc.

I respect your opinion BUT I would take a Baer or a Brown any day of the week, even in the early morning, over a PC1911....but that's just me :)

Gress
01-06-2010, 11:19 AM
oghl888,
Thank you very much for the post. It is very informative and answers qouple of my questions exactly.

Black Majik
01-06-2010, 11:21 AM
I have both the PC1911s and regular SW1911s. The PC1911 feels slightly more top heavy, and is heavier by a few oz. due to the extra materials on slide/frame and the magwell. The fit and finish is far superior, of course. The trigger is light and crisp, never measured it but guessing 3.5lb on the PC, and 5 lb on the regular.

The grip is slightly smaller on the PC due to the checkering. It seems that the grip starts out the same but checkering takes some material away from the front strap. I've switched to thin grips on all of them as I like thin grips better.

The other main difference I can feel is the thumb safety. the PC use larger Wilson type ambi safeties. They allow me to rest my thumb more securely on top. Interestingly, one of my regular SW1911 have a crispier snapping motion than the PC, while the PC 1911s are pretty good, I wish they are as crisp as the regular one I have.

Mechanical accuracy is good on the regular SW1911. One of my friend actually prefers it to his Les Baer TRS, and shoots better with my SW1911. The PC is definitly better. I can't quantify how much, but let me say that I usually have a few shots through one single hole that looks like only 1 bullet went through (at 7-10 yards, my eye sight is the determining factor after 10 yrds).

Overall, I think the PC1911 is the equal of the other higher end 1911s in the same price range or even slightly higher. I won't compare it to a Wilson Super Grade, but I would take a PC1911 over a LB TRS, a Brown SF, etc.

I am rambling on.... Let me know if I can answer any more questions.

That's a nice description of a gun I'd like to see more at the range. Since I've never had the opportunity to shoot one, please post some pics of your PC1911 for us to drool over. :thumbsup:

bak
01-06-2010, 12:16 PM
I respect your opinion BUT I would take a Baer or a Brown any day of the week, even in the early morning, over a PC1911....but that's just me :)

Baer, Brown, Performance Center. It really comes down to what you want/desire and are willing to pay. I have a PC1911, Yost, Jardine, and a Ned Christensen 1911. They all compare very well as shooters and fit function. Differences are cosmetic or different front sights. You can't go wrong with any semi-custom, I would buy another pc1911. Excellent gun and excellent cust service.

oghl888
01-06-2010, 1:28 PM
That's a nice description of a gun I'd like to see more at the range. Since I've never had the opportunity to shoot one, please post some pics of your PC1911 for us to drool over. :thumbsup:


Thanks, Black Majik. Unfortunately you are in SoCal, else we can schedule a range trip for you to try out mine. I haven't figured out how to take nice pictures yet (or even post it here). Shame on me, I know. I'll try again when I get home to see if my luck improved any :)

My 2 PC1911s are just like the black melonite ones posted by others. they are visually idential. The regular SW1911s I spoke of are the brushed stainless version (model xxx282), and the scandium commander. I'll try to take some pics of those as well.

Incidentally, the scandium commander is also a very good piece. So much so that I almost bought a scandium full size. Only nit pic is that it fades to a dark purplish color instead of staying completely black.


[Edit] : In my experience, only Wilsons have shown consistently equal or better quality than SW PC1911. The few Brown SF and Cobra that I've handled were disspointing. NHs have some very good examples, as well as some that I don't think should pass any QC check. LBs are very tight when new, and the couple of older/broken in pieces I've tried are smooth and nice. But I don't rank them any higher than SW PC nor Wilsons (both have that magical smoothness in their operation that the LBs did not). I have a Jardine piece also. It was great at first, but have since deteriorated from its initial greatness. It's got a Kimber 22 conversion kit on it now.

Gress
01-07-2010, 9:38 PM
As much as I wanted SWPC1911 the stars have alligned the way that I am getting Les Baer TRS with Robar NP3 on the frame, internals and the slide.
We will see if this one will bedevil me enough to forget pc1911 love :D
If not I will be back soon. :)

9mmepiphany
01-07-2010, 10:09 PM
take a real good look at the NP3 finish before you put down your money...Robar has had some issues

Gress
01-07-2010, 10:23 PM
Thanks for the heads up, but they claim a lifetime warranty on the NP3 finish. I hope it will be no issues, but if any would not they fix it?

9mmepiphany
01-07-2010, 11:05 PM
my information comes from a highend pistolsmith who has had problems sending customer guns in...i don't use Robar for other reasons

i think it is overpriced for electroless nickle, even with the teflon added...but this wouldn't be a problem with the gun you're looking at, as the finish is already applied.

i'm just saying to be sure to inspect it well as opposed to glancing at it with the expectation of flawless work from a "name" refinisher

oghl888
01-08-2010, 3:47 PM
I came close to a TRS as well. The only reason I did not go for it is because the web of my right hand gets very sore after shooting it with my thumb on the safety. The shape of the grip apparently doesn't agree with the shape of my hand very much.

TRS would be a better work horse if you carry or use it as a work piece. It has fixed night sights, which compared to the blacked sights on the PC1911, is more appropriate for a carry piece. It comes with slim grips, but you can put those on th ePC1911 as well.

I agree with not paying for NP3, especially on a new TRS. LB's are build very tight and needs to be worn in over 1-2k rounds. Was the gun new when NP3'd? I thought they needed some clearance to apply NP3.

BTW, most people will probably never wear out a TRS, or come close to it. So NP3's main benefits would be corrossion resistence. The PC1911's finish is the same as Glock's tennifer, which is what gave glock the reputation of toughness and rust resistence.

To sum it up, personally I think the TRS is a better work horse, the PC1911 is a better target piece; and I won't pay for NP3 on. Also a very personal opinion: I believe that Wilson, Brown, and PC1911 pieces get more attention in the build process than LB's (my bias is showing, I know). I don't belong to the camp that thinks a very tight 1911 is a good thing.

Gress
01-08-2010, 9:56 PM
oghl888,
I respect your opinion much and agree on all the points.
The TRS I am getting had the Robar finishing applied after about 1500 rounds gone through it. Even after that it was quite tough to apply the finish due to the tolerances. The plus is not only corrosion resistance but also the smoothness of the slide as the NP3 with teflon has almost no friction.
BTW the whole Robar thing was caused by Les Baer blueing issues and was inspired by Glock NP3 slide finish.

Gress
01-13-2010, 9:03 PM
I came close to a TRS as well. The only reason I did not go for it is because the web of my right hand gets very sore after shooting it with my thumb on the safety. The shape of the grip apparently doesn't agree with the shape of my hand very much.

TRS would be a better work horse if you carry or use it as a work piece. It has fixed night sights, which compared to the blacked sights on the PC1911, is more appropriate for a carry piece. It comes with slim grips, but you can put those on th ePC1911 as well.

I agree with not paying for NP3, especially on a new TRS. LB's are build very tight and needs to be worn in over 1-2k rounds. Was the gun new when NP3'd? I thought they needed some clearance to apply NP3.

BTW, most people will probably never wear out a TRS, or come close to it. So NP3's main benefits would be corrossion resistence. The PC1911's finish is the same as Glock's tennifer, which is what gave glock the reputation of toughness and rust resistence.

To sum it up, personally I think the TRS is a better work horse, the PC1911 is a better target piece; and I won't pay for NP3 on. Also a very personal opinion: I believe that Wilson, Brown, and PC1911 pieces get more attention in the build process than LB's (my bias is showing, I know). I don't belong to the camp that thinks a very tight 1911 is a good thing.

Stolen from another thread and originally from http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=255555

It shows specific guns build quality and accuracy. Could be just attributed to specific examples, of course. Anyway, I wish someone did same test with pc1911...