PDA

View Full Version : Glock 19 vs 23


Rob Roy
01-03-2010, 11:47 AM
Which one would you choose and why, considering current ammo situation? Also, since I want my wife to be able to use it for SD/HD, I am considering 23c if to go the fotay route. What are your thoughts?

JTROKS
01-03-2010, 12:02 PM
For home defense I would rather have a 9mm than the 40. I would load it with 115 grain jhp. Reason being is the less chance of over penetration putting my neighbors in danger in case I forget my firing zones. I personally have a Glock 23 with set up for 40 as it will be my main CCW piece. I use 9mm for my first line of defense at home.

RockinCali
01-03-2010, 12:07 PM
Go with 9mm so you can shoot more. Yes you can buy a 9mm barrel for the 23 but I wouldn't take the slight chance of something going wrong.

JeffM
01-03-2010, 12:11 PM
G23 with 135-155gr JHP. No porting.

vta
01-03-2010, 12:36 PM
g23 not compensated. More velocity from a short barrel. 40 is easier to find than 9 in my recent experience and it's not always cheaper to shoot 9. For easy plinking, get an extended and ported 9mm barrel for the best of both worlds.

bigbob76
01-03-2010, 12:39 PM
I already had a 19 when I got a chance to buy a 23 at a good price. I already had 2 sigs in .40 but I bought the 23 because I liked the idea it fit into the holsters I already had for the 19. I couldn't stand shooting it and couldn't wait to get rid of it. I don't know if it was because the weight, balance, or shape was so different from the Sigs but with the 23 it seemed snappy and no fun to shoot. I have other Glocks in 9mm and .45 acp that I shoot well and enjoy shooting so go figure.

yellowfin
01-03-2010, 1:02 PM
9mm is a little better for the recoil sensitive.

zippo
01-03-2010, 1:03 PM
I have both, I will pick G19 b/c ammo price is less then 40sw
but G23 U can get conversion barrel for 9mm or .357sig for exter $100-180

is your call.... all glock will be service your well

mds2004
01-03-2010, 1:03 PM
If going for the 23 wait for the Gen 4. Im not sure why, but supposedly they are less felt recoil.

SJgunguy24
01-03-2010, 1:15 PM
They're the same gun, your only choosing a caliber. If your choosing a HD gun don't go with anything ported. 1 shot and you night vision is gone and it'll cover up the front sight with carbon, especially if you get night sights.

9mmepiphany
01-03-2010, 1:16 PM
i've found that the Glock 19 is almost the definitive Glock among non-glock fans (Sig, H&K, Walther fans)

it just points right (usually better than the 17) and is the original Glock chambering for which the pistol was designed. i've always found the .40 snappy except in my Beretta 96

nitrofc
01-03-2010, 1:54 PM
23...I like the snap.

Miltiades
01-03-2010, 1:57 PM
I've had both a G19 and a G23 since the 90s, and have the standard magazines for both. I've shot them both quite a lot, and would not part with either one. Both are good all around guns for range, carry or home defense. I think the .40 caliber has a little more effect on a living target than a 9mm that hits in the same spot, but the difference is probably small, so either is good for personal defense.

The G19 is easy to shoot because of modest recoil, while the G23 is somewhat more challenging and could bring out a flinch if you are prone to that sort of thing. In terms of ammo cost and availability, there is plenty of both 9mm and .40 out there for sale if you pay the market price. I just bought 500 rounds of new 9mm CCI Blazer for $10.50/50 and I have seen .40 selling for about $13.00/50 at a couple of places. So the .40 always costs about 25% more per box.

RogueSniper
01-03-2010, 2:12 PM
If you decide to go with the G19, load it with a heavier round (124gr or 147gr). Less recoil from my experience. You'll have to check data for penetration (body and building walls). Myself, I'd probably go for a G23 because I will have the option of shooting 9mm in it. Lots of good, quality aftermarket barrels out there. I'm shooting a G22 and changing it out with a 9mm barrel isn't a problem and I have never had a failure in the aftermarket barrel.

fr0ng
01-03-2010, 2:33 PM
.40 hurts your hand after a while.

blikeandy
01-03-2010, 2:44 PM
I already had a 19 when I got a chance to buy a 23 at a good price. I already had 2 sigs in .40 but I bought the 23 because I liked the idea it fit into the holsters I already had for the 19. I couldn't stand shooting it and couldn't wait to get rid of it. I don't know if it was because the weight, balance, or shape was so different from the Sigs but with the 23 it seemed snappy and no fun to shoot. I have other Glocks in 9mm and .45 acp that I shoot well and enjoy shooting so go figure.

Me too I had a g19 but sold it I also have sigs. So I bought
a g23 when I first shot it it felt snappy it doesn't feel good
so at first I wanted to fet rid of it but after more time with it
at the range i started to like it and get used to the fotay it's
a really accuarate pistol but u wouldn't go wrong with either
glock 19 or 23

JTROKS
01-03-2010, 2:58 PM
It is snappy, but it doesn't weight much when carried.

Air
01-03-2010, 3:05 PM
I had a Glock 23, sold it. I would like to have a 19 though.

loosewreck
01-03-2010, 3:21 PM
19 all the way. 23 is way too snappy. IMHO, Glock and 9mm are a perfect match, you'll see...:)

Josh3239
01-03-2010, 4:24 PM
I am a G23 owner, I regret it. Should have gone with the 19. If you really want a .40S&W get the conversion barrel.

Crazed_SS
01-03-2010, 4:35 PM
.40 hurts your hand after a while.

Agreed. My G23 is a chore to shoot. After 70rds or so, Im ready to call it quits. However, if I drop in the storm lake 9mm conversion barrel, I can shoot all day.

I dont know what it is, but the G23 feels liek it wants to jump out of the hand after every shot.. recoil is extremely snappy.

$P-Ritch$
01-03-2010, 8:48 PM
I like the 19. Comfortable to shoot, ammo is cheaper so you can shoot more. And then if you ever moved to a free state where they allow standard capacity. You could be holding 15+1 in a nice, tight, little package.

BHPFan
01-03-2010, 9:22 PM
G19.
Ammo is cheaper to shoot, therefore, more practice to get better.
Besides, with today's technology, what a 9mm can't do that a .40SW can?

Rob Roy
01-03-2010, 9:26 PM
G19.
Ammo is cheaper to shoot, therefore, more practice to get better.
Besides, with today's technology, what a 9mm can't do that a .40SW can?
This point is arguable, because it's not like 9mm is the only one that uses latest tech... I'd assume .40 has been improved too.

Malmon
01-03-2010, 9:48 PM
I just picked up a Glock 19C yesterday afternoon and went directly to the range. Here are my thoughts on the 19: the trigger pull takes some practice (might be the same for all glocks), the size is just right, and it looks ugly and mean. It jammed a lot at first. A few drops of oil around the barrel and the side rails solved the problem.

I can see flames bursting out of the ports, and the front sight did get dark after about 500 rounds. There is minimal recoil compared to my other 9mm (92fs). I think this is a perfect gun for home defense as well, since if you need to fire in succession, the groupings are so tight that it will thwart any attacking zombies by creating a big hole in the midsection.

I was able to sight in the laser/light combo. This is amazing. You don't need night sights, you don't even have to look at the sights, just point and squeeze the trigger, a hole will appear where the laser light is at.

Oh by the way, I have a friend who owns a 23 and its not something I want to own.

http://thebetasigmafraternity.net/100_2039.JPG
http://thebetasigmafraternity.net/100_2040.JPG

axhoaxho
01-03-2010, 10:10 PM
I like the Glock 19 so much that, between my wife and myself, we have total three of them.

One is a Gen II that I bought in 1994. I plink it a lot at the range all these years. After countless rounds and sixteen years later, it still shoots and looks like the day I bought it.

One is a Gen III that my wife has. It is one of a few pistols that my wife feels totally comfortable to shoot and disassemble, yet it rounds pack decent stopping power (she favors the 147g Federal HST.)

One is a Gen III that I plan to put a light on its rail, and use it as my HD pistol.

When the Gen IV comes out and proves its reliablity, my wife and I sure will get one or two of it as well.

We have many other guns, and yet we like the Glock 19 that much. There are few guns that we don't mind to have more than a few, and the Glock 19 is one of them.

With best regards,

dchang0
01-03-2010, 10:45 PM
If your choosing a HD gun don't go with anything ported. 1 shot and you night vision is gone

Urban myth. I've competed in several night matches already with a 19C and was never blinded by the flashes. Sure is fun for others to watch, though--the flames are like dragon's breath. Others I know also competed in the same matches with ported revolvers and pistols, as well as a couple of guys running ported shotguns. None of them reported any problem with follow-up shots. Also, Glock's V-shaped porting does not blacken the front sight at all, even after 300rnds.

Echidin
01-03-2010, 10:51 PM
I don't personally own a Glock 19, but I do own a 17 and 26 and would personally prefer the 19 over the 23. I'm just a big fan of the 9x19 I guess.

lehn20
01-03-2010, 11:02 PM
Forget about the compensated version, that just shows a lack of understanding!! You cant shoot from close contact without burning yourself and you become blind after the first round from the flash in your eyes.

Second.
40 cal offers no advantage over 9mm these days. The technology of 9mm rounds and penetration is just as good as any 40. Look at ballistics. Further more the 9mm is easier on gun and you for better shoots with quicker follow-ups.

my .2

lehn20
01-03-2010, 11:10 PM
Have you shot your gun in hallways and rooms inside houses?. There is a huge difference from ported to not ported.
Have you shot speedrocks with compensation?. Half your face will go numb!.
Have you shot other "odd" angle shots where you absorb the flash coming out from the compensated barrel setting your own clothes on fire?

Probably not from reading your post!!.

Who cares what others think of your dragons breath!. We are dealing with life and death situations here.

Rant off


Urban myth. I've competed in several night matches already with a 19C and was never blinded by the flashes. Sure is fun for others to watch, though--the flames are like dragon's breath. Others I know also competed in the same matches with ported revolvers and pistols, as well as a couple of guys running ported shotguns. None of them reported any problem with follow-up shots. Also, Glock's V-shaped porting does not blacken the front sight at all, even after 300rnds.

Malmon
01-04-2010, 12:17 AM
Any gun you shoot in a hallway will give out smoke. The real advantage would be that the second shot that you fire will be as accurate as the first one, and I believe that this can be better achieved with a gun with less recoil.

And why will you shoot your gun next to your face, or next to your body that your clothes will catch fire? The only time I can imagine shooting this way is when you are shooting from the hip when drawing your gun from a holster, which is an unimaginable scenario when you're at home.

The only way I know how to shoot is with extended arms and my gun pointed at the target. And that is what I plan to do when I have to shoot in self defense. If a zombie appears in my living room, a double tap in the chest would be the initial welcome greeting. :D

bsg
01-04-2010, 2:37 AM
my vote goes to the G19.

bsg
01-04-2010, 2:39 AM
Malmon; according to literature i have read and movies i have seen, the zombie MUST be shot in the head....

lehn20
01-04-2010, 4:22 AM
Obviously you are clueless!

When was the last time things went as planned in a gunfight?.
Yes, less recoil is better but if you cant control a 9mm gun you are sheep. Buy a 22!. And how accurate is your follow up shot after your compensated gun just blew and bunch of **** towards your face, you are half blinded from it, your ears are ringing if you didt blow out your eardrums from the first shot. Audiotory exclusion and tunnel vision. Not to mention your adrenalin levels and heartbeat is throught the roof.
In a fight you will likely keep pulling the trigger more than twice, most people will empty their gun and not even remember afterwards. Especially untrained civilians!. (and NO going to the range once in a while doesnt count!).
When did last shoot a gun without Eyepro and Earpro indoors?. Or inside a car for that matters?

Thrust me dude, you will shoot your gun from any angle possible, including next to your face, wife, boyfriend whatever, when suddenly the badguy is on top of you and you barely had time to wake up and comprehend what is happening around you.

If you think you can execute a perfect 2 handed, extended arms, 360 degreee isometric tension grip with perfect sight alignment, sight picture, you are sadly mistaking and living in a fantasy world!.



Any gun you shoot in a hallway will give out smoke. The real advantage would be that the second shot that you fire will be as accurate as the first one, and I believe that this can be better achieved with a gun with less recoil.

And why will you shoot your gun next to your face, or next to your body that your clothes will catch fire? The only time I can imagine shooting this way is when you are shooting from the hip when drawing your gun from a holster, which is an unimaginable scenario when you're at home.

The only way I know how to shoot is with extended arms and my gun pointed at the target. And that is what I plan to do when I have to shoot in self defense. If a zombie appears in my living room, a double tap in the chest would be the initial welcome greeting. :D

rabagley
01-04-2010, 8:56 AM
I'm a bit of a Glock fan, and figured that I would enjoy shooting all of 'em, but that hasn't been the case. I have enjoyed shooting the G20 with full house 10mm rounds, but I didn't care for any of the .40S&W models, nor did I care for 10mm in anything but the G20. To be honest, I didn't care for the G21 either until I shot the G21SF. Haven't tried any of the 45 GAP models, but that feels like a dead end, so...

9mm and 45ACP have been lots of fun to shoot no matter what the model. I currently own 2 G19's, G21SF, G36. I vote for the 19.

nitrofc
01-04-2010, 9:07 AM
Yep!..:punk:

g23 not compensated. More velocity from a short barrel. 40 is easier to find than 9 in my recent experience and it's not always cheaper to shoot 9. For easy plinking, get an extended and ported 9mm barrel for the best of both worlds.

CSDGuy
01-04-2010, 9:36 AM
I own a 23. I have shot a 19. I found that the 19 had a MUCH softer recoil impulse. While the 23 is snappy, I found that I can get my 23 back on target about as quickly as I could a 19. Both the 19 and the 23 will do the job IF you do yours.

If I want to shoot 9mm or .357 Sig, all I need (really) is a conversion barrel. The extractor might not grip all that well to the 9mm... but in my gun, 9mm would be for plinking, not HD. That duty would be reserved for .40 or .357 Sig. The reason for that is simple: the extractor/ejector is set up for those cases, not for extracting/ejecting 9mm cases.

So, in the end, it's all up to you. 9mm and (potentially) you get +5 rounds in a free state (above 10 here) or go .40/.357 and get +3...

Grumpyoldretiredcop
01-04-2010, 11:19 AM
I have and like the 23. I've fired 19s on several occasions, like them too, but really don't see that much of a difference between them in terms of felt recoil. In the interests of caliber consolidation, I've gotten rid of all my 9MMs and now have only .40 and .45 semi-autos.

dchang0
01-04-2010, 4:27 PM
you are half blinded from it, your ears are ringing if you didt blow out your eardrums from the first shot. Audiotory exclusion and tunnel vision.

Auditory exclusion and tunnel vision works IN FAVOR of the person firing the gun, as the tunnel vision cuts through the muzzle flash and smoke to focus on the threat, and the auditory exclusion effectively silences any perceived muzzle blast.

Tunnel vision is the main reason I am able to use my comp'ed G19C effectively in night matches. Even with such minor stress as shooting under the clock, I can see through the flash and smoke to engage multiple targets.

dchang0
01-04-2010, 4:32 PM
Have you shot your gun in hallways and rooms inside houses?. There is a huge difference from ported to not ported.
Have you shot speedrocks with compensation?. Half your face will go numb!.
Have you shot other "odd" angle shots where you absorb the flash coming out from the compensated barrel setting your own clothes on fire?

Probably not from reading your post!!.

Who cares what others think of your dragons breath!. We are dealing with life and death situations here.

Rant off

Actually, yes, as part of the SSA night match a few nights ago (and day match the next morning), I shot my G19C INSIDE a one-room building with a low 8ft ceiling (through a 2ft-square open window at targets outside--for those that know Rauhaages, it's bay five's little house, with the cowboy bed in it). I've even shot with the gun inside of a pipe/barrel and right under a wooden board (at the LESA day/night match--now those were loud!). And I have tried shooting from the hip/holster (speed rocking) and off of barricades ("odd-angle," at the last SSA match). No fires were started, and my face did not go numb, though the blast wasn't pleasant. I've shot at day and at night without trouble.

Rant away on your assumptions--you got 'em all wrong. I had heard all these urban myths about comp'ed guns and set out to find out the truth for myself. And so far, the myths haven't held up in my actual, real-world experience. Have YOU tried any of the things you mentioned yourself, or are you just parroting what you heard from somebody else or imagined inside your head? If you HAVE tried these things and found them to be intolerable, well then, in the famous words of Chris Costa and Travis Haley, "SUCK IT UP!," especially since it's a life-or-death situation here.

I plan on running the same comp'ed gun at the upcoming Vickers pistol class, in spite of the fact that Vickers is likely to make fun of me for having a comped 9mm OR the possibility that I will have to deal with the unpleasant blast repeatedly through multiple drills. It's a great gun, and I love shooting it.

Mstnpete
01-04-2010, 4:36 PM
Both are great!
My wife's favorite is G23 with no C.
40 SW would be better for stopping power.
I would recommend to stay away from the "C" model.
When it is shot inside or at night all you will see is a fire ball coming out of the ports and will blind you and hard to do a second shot. Because all the smoke will be on your way.
I have 13 Glocks, so I am more confused on which to use...... LOL!

Just my 2 cents.

NorCalMama
01-04-2010, 4:47 PM
G19 ftw! :D And it's gotta be OD green! I feel that for me, as a chick, it's ideal. Not much kick, not very noisy, is light weight, and just a fun little 9mm. *sigh* I love it!

Malmon
01-04-2010, 5:15 PM
Obviously you are clueless!

When was the last time things went as planned in a gunfight?.
Yes, less recoil is better but if you cant control a 9mm gun you are sheep. Buy a 22!. And how accurate is your follow up shot after your compensated gun just blew and bunch of **** towards your face, you are half blinded from it, your ears are ringing if you didt blow out your eardrums from the first shot. Audiotory exclusion and tunnel vision. Not to mention your adrenalin levels and heartbeat is throught the roof.
In a fight you will likely keep pulling the trigger more than twice, most people will empty their gun and not even remember afterwards. Especially untrained civilians!. (and NO going to the range once in a while doesnt count!).
When did last shoot a gun without Eyepro and Earpro indoors?. Or inside a car for that matters?

Thrust me dude, you will shoot your gun from any angle possible, including next to your face, wife, boyfriend whatever, when suddenly the badguy is on top of you and you barely had time to wake up and comprehend what is happening around you.

If you think you can execute a perfect 2 handed, extended arms, 360 degreee isometric tension grip with perfect sight alignment, sight picture, you are sadly mistaking and living in a fantasy world!.

It is presumptuous of you to think that I cannot control a 9mm. I have been shooting 1911's for more than 20 years and the para p14-45 being my favorite. The 19c is actually my first tupperware gun.

In the event of a gunfight, the last thing that you worry about is getting burned. Because either ported or non-ported, if you shoot a gun close to your faces, you and your target will get burned. I know this for a fact. Even though I have never been to a firefight, I have been to several post-fights. Part of my job is to perform autopsies, and I did rotate with the LA county coroners office. Every burn findings in criminal cases are carefully documented. So in the unfortunate event that you really have to shoot it out, there is nothing wrong with having the advantage of getting a ported pistol for faster accurate follow-up shot.

Your scenario of having the badguy on top of you while your boyfriend slept is just that, I'll leave you be with your fantasies.:D

Malmon
01-04-2010, 5:23 PM
If a zombie appears in my living room, a double tap in the chest would be the initial welcome greeting

Malmon; according to literature i have read and movies i have seen, the zombie MUST be shot in the head....

You are right BSG, I should add one more farewell shot to the head.

BHPFan
01-04-2010, 5:28 PM
Second.
40 cal offers no advantage over 9mm these days. The technology of 9mm rounds and penetration is just as good as any 40. Look at ballistics. Further more the 9mm is easier on gun and you for better shoots with quicker follow-ups.

my .2

I agree and rest my case.

BHPFan
01-04-2010, 5:41 PM
This point is arguable, because it's not like 9mm is the only one that uses latest tech... I'd assume .40 has been improved too.

If that's the case, then what advantages do the .40 offer over 9 ?

In my opinion, none.

If you are OK with the Snappy recoil of the .40 on a G23 or G27, more power to you, but I'll stay with the G19 or the 9mm Glocks.

If you are OK with the big muzzle flash on a G23C, more power to you, but I'll stay with an non-ported G19.

sker13
01-04-2010, 5:53 PM
Actually, yes, as part of the SSA night match a few nights ago (and day match the next morning), I shot my G19C INSIDE a one-room building with a low 8ft ceiling (through a 2ft-square open window at targets outside--for those that know Rauhaages, it's bay five's little house, with the cowboy bed in it). I've even shot with the gun inside of a pipe/barrel and right under a wooden board (at the LESA day/night match--now those were loud!). And I have tried shooting from the hip/holster (speed rocking) and off of barricades ("odd-angle," at the last SSA match). No fires were started, and my face did not go numb, though the blast wasn't pleasant. I've shot at day and at night without trouble.

Rant away on your assumptions--you got 'em all wrong. I had heard all these urban myths about comp'ed guns and set out to find out the truth for myself. And so far, the myths haven't held up in my actual, real-world experience. Have YOU tried any of the things you mentioned yourself, or are you just parroting what you heard from somebody else or imagined inside your head? If you HAVE tried these things and found them to be intolerable, well then, in the famous words of Chris Costa and Travis Haley, "SUCK IT UP!," especially since it's a life-or-death situation here.

I plan on running the same comp'ed gun at the upcoming Vickers pistol class, in spite of the fact that Vickers is likely to make fun of me for having a comped 9mm OR the possibility that I will have to deal with the unpleasant blast repeatedly through multiple drills. It's a great gun, and I love shooting it.

I will take real world exp. over hear-say anytime. I'm not running out to buy a C model but come on!!!You guys duth protest too much!

SIGman Freud
01-04-2010, 6:00 PM
I don't really like Glocks, but I like the 19. I've held the others, but it's the only one I can truly contemplate purchasing just to say I have a Glock! :43:

Rob Roy
01-04-2010, 6:48 PM
Do you think velocity loss in a ported gun significant?

Rob Roy
01-04-2010, 7:03 PM
If that's the case, then what advantages do the .40 offer over 9 ?

In my opinion, none.

If you are OK with the Snappy recoil of the .40 on a G23 or G27, more power to you, but I'll stay with the G19 or the 9mm Glocks.

If you are OK with the big muzzle flash on a G23C, more power to you, but I'll stay with an non-ported G19.

More tissue crashed, better barrier penetration due to heavier weight. This is according Dr. Gary Roberts. Otherwise why would bigger calibers Be preferrable? Also, why LE is dominated by fotay?

dchang0
01-04-2010, 8:57 PM
I will take real world exp. over hear-say anytime. I'm not running out to buy a C model but come on!!!You guys duth protest too much!

Amen to that--I agree, there's no need to run out to buy a C model. The benefits of having the comp aren't so supremely overwhelming that everyone's got to buy one. But the downsides aren't anywhere as bad as all the negative-hype out there.

Personally, after actually trying and testing porting, I have decided to keep it as my defensive gun. There is definitely a noticeable edge on follow-up shots thanks to the porting (other long-time shooters have shot my gun and all agreed that the porting makes a surprising and significant improvement, even on wimpy 9mm). For me, the trade-off in additional noise and blast is worth it, and my improved times are proof enough that it's an edge. If I can pick up 10 seconds engaging 20 to 25 steel targets, that's a good thing.

Who was it that said, "Fight with what you train, train with what you fight?"

lehn20
01-05-2010, 12:48 AM
I wonder howcome we dont see any ported/compted guns in any branches of any military or police units around the world!. If it really gave that edge you keep talking about, the best of the best would have it, but they dont!.

If you want a ported gun, fn buy one!. Why even ask in a forum!. Personally I couldnt care less. Your life, not mine.

Ask Vickers if he would carry a ported gun in the MIL for combat or for HD. Ask Kyle Lamb, ask Max Joseph, ask Bryan Searcy. I will be bet their answer is no.

Ported/compted gun are build for competion, not combat.

lehn20
01-05-2010, 12:56 AM
40 came about at a time where 9mm wasnt deemed to be enough for alot of departments. That is why 40cal is so dominant in LE.

But things are changing, more and more depts are going back to 9mm.
Because the 9mm technology caught up in terms of performance. Also,9mm guns last longer with less maintenance, so they are cheaper for the depts.

Dr. Gary Roberts is the man on ballistics, but when was the last time you asked him this question?.
I think he would tend to agree with me if you called him today. At least I hope he would:)

And bigger calibers are not always better. I am 45acp guy by heart, but I have seen those rounds bounce of windshields because of the low velocity. Where 9,, flies right through.


More tissue crashed, better barrier penetration due to heavier weight. This is according Dr. Gary Roberts. Otherwise why would bigger calibers Be preferrable? Also, why LE is dominated by fotay?

lehn20
01-05-2010, 1:17 AM
I am sorry dude but that is the biggest bunch of BS I have ever read!. You are completely clueless!!
If that is the case you are dead in any gunfight involving more than one bad guy. I dont really think you know what those terms mean at all.!

When for example a LEO gets tunnel vision during a shooting means that he can only focus on that one target. He loses pherifial vision and depth perception and fail to see other attackers and ends up dead because of it.

And believe me what you get in a competition has nothing to do with it.

The following visual skills are important for shooter speed and accuracy of aim;


A. Visual acuity: Both static (discerning detail of a stationary target) and dynamic visual acuity (discerning detail of a moving target) is important to a marksman. Good dynamic acuity will enhance a shooter’s visual reaction time and eye tracking abilities.


B. Peripheral vision: Skillful shooters have reported a visual ability of maintaining an awareness of a central target while simultaneously maintaining a vast amount of peripheral visual awareness. A fully functioning visual system is capable of responding to objects located within a total visual field (which for each eye is approximately 40 degrees up, 60 degrees toward the nose, 70 degrees down and 90 degrees towards the temple measured from a central point of fixation). It is critical that shooters are aware of what is beyond and around the target to insure safety, and peripheral vision awareness is crucial to achieve this task.


C. Depth perception: An essential skill for the shooter who needs to judge relative distances between targets.


D. Eye motility: Eye tracking abilities are crucial to maintain accurate detail and awareness of any moving target. This skill is highly critical if a marksman needs to shoot a moving target.


E. Eye-hand-body-mind coordination: A necessary set of visual coordinated abilities that are used in developing precise trigger control while maintaining precise aim on target.


F. Visualization: The ability to use your “mind’s eye” to create a mental visual picture when direct view of a target may not be possible. This highly developed visual skill is useful to anticipate where a target or adversary is most likely to be located during episodes of lack of direct vision.


G. Speed of recognition time: Extremely important when a target may be only visible for a brief moment in time. The ability to accurately recognize as much of a target in as little as 0.01 seconds can be critical in deciding to shoot, or not shoot, a target.


H. Eye focusing flexibility: This ability plays an extremely important part of a shooter’s ability to quickly adjust focus upon targets that are located in different distances in space. The speed and flexibility of quickly changing eye focus from one point in space to another point in space has a direct influence on maintaining clear, single binocular vision while in shooting competition or in combat.


I. Color perception: May prove to be a useful skill when confronted with the need to engage targets of specific coloring.


J. Fixation ability: Necessary to establish ‘sight picture’ awareness and consistency.


K. Visual memory: Used to embed the learning elements of training to help skills reach the point of automaticity. Training to the point of automaticity implies that the speed of processing and performing a set of skills is fast, there is a relative lack of effort to perform a skill, and the skill is autonomous such that it may be initiated and run completely on its own without an active voluntary conscious thought process. The automaticity realization of shooting skills is useful in avoiding visual perceptual overload resulting in confusion in target recognition.


L. Central-peripheral awareness: The ability to have awareness of central details of a target and simultaneously be aware of the visual space surrounding the target (the peripheral space around the target). This skill helps a shooter avoid getting locked into “tunnel vision” for extended periods of time.

I rest my case.

Auditory exclusion and tunnel vision works IN FAVOR of the person firing the gun, as the tunnel vision cuts through the muzzle flash and smoke to focus on the threat, and the auditory exclusion effectively silences any perceived muzzle blast.

Tunnel vision is the main reason I am able to use my comp'ed G19C effectively in night matches. Even with such minor stress as shooting under the clock, I can see through the flash and smoke to engage multiple targets.

JeffM
01-05-2010, 2:22 AM
wow this thread has degraded from a bunch of p*ssies that cant handle 10mm-Light to a couple o' b*tches killing the rest of us with semantics.

Here it is:

A: Bigger is better.... which is why RIFLES are for fighting. More mass + more velocity = more win.

2. If you can't handle the recoil of a .40 you need to shoot more cause you're probably worthless with ANY handgun at this point.

D. 9mm is acceptable as the MINIMUM caliber for SD if you want to STOP the threat ASAP... Yeah, I know more people die in the US from .22lr hits than any other, but I can bet they don't do so fast enough for my liking.

If getting the 9mm means you will shoot more, train more, and score more hits, then get it. That's all that really matters. The rest is academic.

CABilly
01-05-2010, 3:10 AM
wow this thread has degraded from a bunch of p*ssies that cant handle 10mm-Light to a couple o' b*tches killing the rest of us with semantics.

Here it is:

A: Bigger is better.... which is why RIFLES are for fighting. More mass + more velocity = more win.

2. If you can't handle the recoil of a .40 you need to shoot more cause you're probably worthless with ANY handgun at this point.

D. 9mm is acceptable as the MINIMUM caliber for SD if you want to STOP the threat ASAP... Yeah, I know more people die in the US from .22lr hits than any other, but I can bet they don't do so fast enough for my liking.

If getting the 9mm means you will shoot more, train more, and score more hits, then get it. That's all that really matters. The rest is academic.


Is this your girlfriend?

http://img.youtube.com/vi/_Ws5pimN4mw/0.jpg

Woof!

Rob Roy
01-05-2010, 7:50 AM
I wonder howcome we dont see any ported/compted guns in any branches of any military or police units around the world!. If it really gave that edge you keep talking about, the best of the best would have it, but they dont!.

If you want a ported gun, fn buy one!. Why even ask in a forum!. Personally I couldnt care less. Your life, not mine.

Ask Vickers if he would carry a ported gun in the MIL for combat or for HD. Ask Kyle Lamb, ask Max Joseph, ask Bryan Searcy. I will be bet their answer is no.

Ported/compted gun are build for competion, not combat.

Israeli military uses Glock 17C and they do have battlefield experience unlike many around the globe.

Carpenter 409
01-05-2010, 9:13 AM
I'd say the 19 over the 23 and 23C if you have ever shot a compensated pistil like a glock in low light it's kinda gives you a bit of white out effect.
The reason I say the 19 is if both of you (Your wife and You) are going to shoot it, a 9MM is usually more controllable for a woman to shoot unless she is a seasoned shooter.
My wife has shot all three of my glocks (17,22,21) and shoots well but under stress shooting hits better with the 9MM. If this glock is going to be used for home defense and you can shoot either 9 or 40 well I would base my purchase on her skills.
Most ranges have both 19 and 23 take her to a range and do a test drive.

cineski
01-05-2010, 9:19 AM
Every place I've gone that sells ammo is out of 9 and 45. There always seems to be 40 laying around. The Glock has a low enough bore axis to cut down on the jumpy characteristics of a 40. That said, I own a G19 and love it. Oh, I don't get the whole compensated barrel thing for the sub grizzly rounds. While it may help with some recoil, it's at the expense of bullet velocity.

SJgunguy24
01-05-2010, 9:28 AM
357 SIG FTW!!!!!!!

JeffM
01-05-2010, 1:12 PM
Is this your girlfriend?

Woof!

you = win!

BHPFan
01-06-2010, 12:14 PM
wow this thread has degraded from a bunch of p*ssies that cant handle 10mm-Light to a couple o' b*tches killing the rest of us with semantics.


So, by this statement, you're implying that over 80 people who voted for G19 are a bunch of P*ssies. How about long time .45ACP shooters who can't stand the "10mm-Lite"? Are you also implying they are P*ssies? or the .45 ACP is a p*ssy round?



A: Bigger is better.... which is why RIFLES are for fighting. More mass + more velocity = more win.

Is the topic about rifles and long guns?
While you're at it with that topic, then what is the purpose of the handgun in HD? I'll tell you what it is... It is so you can get to your long gun...and I add, your shotgun.

You say bigger is better? OK... a rifle is bigger than a pistol, but is a .22LR bigger than the 9mm? :eek:


2. If you can't handle the recoil of a .40 you need to shoot more cause you're probably worthless with ANY handgun at this point.

So someone who can shoots .45ACP, but cannot handle .40 is worthless, huh?
:rolleyes:
So, by this statement, you're implying that 80+ people who voted for G19 are worthless with any handgun at this point, huh?
:rolleyes::rolleyes:


D. 9mm is acceptable as the MINIMUM caliber for SD if you want to STOP the threat ASAP... Yeah, I know more people die in the US from .22lr hits than any other, but I can bet they don't do so fast enough for my liking.

If getting the 9mm means you will shoot more, train more, and score more hits, then get it. That's all that really matters. The rest is academic.

The only statement in your list that I agree.

Let me ask you this, if you're going to teach someone new to handguns like your kid, GF or wife, which caliber are you gonna start them with?

Adog5
01-16-2010, 9:39 PM
Which is better? G19 or G23? Well...it's difficult to say since you didn't say mention for what you're going to use it for.

Weight each of the questions and assign your importance to them and make a decision:

If you are limited to the 10 rounds (meaning you don't have pre-ban high-caps for either), then I'd go with the G23.

If you want to shoot alot for practice (which is highly recommended), 9mm is always cheaper than .40. Look at any brand, the .40 is more than the 9mm always (never cheaper). It takes more material to make a .40, so com'on... go with the G19.

If you think you'll be in a situation where you'll need to shoot through automotive glass, the .40 will stay on trajectory better than the 9mm and not break up as easily (so says the FBI in their tests and hence why they all carry G23's now). Go with the G23.

Go to your local range and shoot both. Try ammo made by the same company with the same type of load (meaning don't shoot a Wolf 115 JHP 9mm and test it against a .40 Federal Hydra-Shok.... try it against the Wolf 160 JHP) and see if you can handle the G23 (I hope you know how to properly hold and shoot, otherwise take lessons before evaluating). If you are readjusting your grip every time or it's uncomfortable, then pick the G19, otherwise the G23.

For ballistics, it is true that a 9mm 147 grain Federal HST will penetrate and expand very similarly to a .40 180 grain Federal HST bullet. But, what if the Hollowpoint doesn't expand (due to clothing getting clogged...etc)? There are two ways to stop a bad guy: 1. Hit to the Central Nervous System 2. He bleeds until parts stop functioning or he blacks out. Therefore, a bigger hole increases both those chances (in the case of the hollow point not expanding). Going back to the maximum 10 round capacity, I'd go with the G23 because of this (unless you got a high cap for a G19, then go for that).

Also, does your situation allow you for extra mags? If you wear boxers, are you going to wake up, grab your gun and clip extra mags to your boxers? (I seriously doubt they'd stay on, let alone be able to cleanly grab that mag without giving yourself a wedgie). So, having no high-caps... I'd go with G23 for self-defense.

There is a good point of a G23 can always be brought down to shoot a 9mm, but I'd never do that for reliability sake. I just saw the other day at the range during a tactical run a G19 jam due to a custom barrel (even for the same caliber and it was due to the custom barrel by Lone Wolf since it didn't have the tapered off section (causing too much friction) you see looking from the top down on your Glock barrel). So my suggestion is stick with standard Glock components.

rabagley
01-16-2010, 10:19 PM
I just saw the other day at the range during a tactical run a G19 jam due to a custom barrel (even for the same caliber and it was due to the custom barrel by Lone Wolf since it didn't have the tapered off section (causing too much friction) you see looking from the top down on your Glock barrel). So my suggestion is stick with standard Glock components.

In general, aftermarket barrels are considered superior to the stock barrels, having better accuracy, fully supported chambers, and the ability to safely shoot lead bullets. Problems, when they have been reported, tend to be handled by the manufacturer, especially Lone Wolf, which has managed to build an impressive reputation for customer service.

I'm not saying that you didn't see that incident or that you mistook any of the facts. But I don't think that the conclusion you've reached is warranted given the one incident you did see. Aftermarket barrels have a better reputation than stock barrels, not worse.

Adog5
01-17-2010, 12:56 AM
In general, aftermarket barrels are considered superior to the stock barrels, having better accuracy, fully supported chambers, and the ability to safely shoot lead bullets. Problems, when they have been reported, tend to be handled by the manufacturer, especially Lone Wolf, which has managed to build an impressive reputation for customer service.

I'm not saying that you didn't see that incident or that you mistook any of the facts. But I don't think that the conclusion you've reached is warranted given the one incident you did see. Aftermarket barrels have a better reputation than stock barrels, not worse.

It's not just seeing it and working with the person who had the jam (as we had to go oil the part until we could hand cycle it cleanly), but also to this reason:

Yes, the custom barrels do have a better reputation mostly 'For Accuracy' (and that's why they sell), but the reason they are better is because of the tighter tolerances (but that COULD come at the cost of reliability). For the most part, these custom barrel manufacturers are not using any special new material to construct the barrels (to my knowledge they are mostly steel still). So the 'custom' comes to twist rate, length, port positions, tighter tolerances... I am a fan of the tenifer process that Glock uses, so I consider the stock barrels superior for reliability, ease of cleaning, and longer usage life (but I doubt most shooters will reach a point where you'll need to replace the stock barrel). In the case of the fully supported chamber, you are only referring to the .40 Glocks... so I should add that unless you plan to shoot reloads, it's better to go with a fully supported chamber so G19 is better. Actually, the Glock 23 Generation 3 have a much better supported chamber than that the Gen 1's, but I don't think that will be a concern if you are shooting new factory ammo (from a known manufacturer). Most of the Kabooms in the past were deduced that it was the ammo (i.e. - weak case) that was the reason. Yet Glock didn't make a fully supported chamber for the G23, why? (because the feed ramp would be too steep, reducing the reliability of feed).

When it comes to lead bullets, do you really want to run that anyway? Why risk it? I don't think any of the major ammo manufacturers make lead bullets (just FMJ with lead core). I understand they say that the way Glock rifles their barrel that lead can build up, but it still could build up for even custom ones (depending how long you go without cleaning it).

Also, one last thing about accuracy and swapping to custom barrel. Check out this recent posting about a guy using a standard G27 barrel hitting at 230 yards- http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=258857 (like the guy in the video says, only as good as the shooter). Again, if your purpose is hit things beyond 200 yards (G19 or G23), then get a custom barrel and compare to the stock.

S.F. 1357
01-17-2010, 1:22 AM
The only way to solve this debate is to put two guys in a room, one with a 19 and the other with a 23, and have them shoot it out.

nitrofc
01-17-2010, 6:54 AM
I never thought the recoil on the 23 was that bad. Never was a bother to me.
My wife shoots hers with no problem and does well with it.
After playing around with hot loads in the .44 Mag. and switching back to the .40 Cal., my Glock 23's seem like perfectly manageable and extremely accurate weapon's.

I think it's mostly psychological for a lot of people.
Maybe they were told something by somebody that steered them off, or they have to justify their choice in purchasing a 9mm before spending any quality time with a Glock 23.

Who really knows, but one thing for sure the Compact Glock 23 is a great all around good gun. The 9mm is also a very nice gun.
For me it comes down to what your seriously trying to accomplish with either.

den888
01-17-2010, 10:03 AM
G23, because you can get a 9mm conversion barrel and magazine and shoot BOTH .40S&W and 9mm...

qaz987
01-17-2010, 4:11 PM
First choice G20, second choice G23 in 10mm short 'cause I didn't like the G29.

domeshotjuan2
02-06-2010, 7:48 PM
g19= cheaper ammo more chance of over penetration- i would go with 147grain jhp- heavier round = less velocity more impact- jhp high expansion less chance of over penetration.for home defence you might want some frangible ammo depending on the longest distance if your dwellin and material of walls

g23= a little higher price ammo - less chance of over penetrating then with the 9mm.

i would stick with either the 9mm or 45acp, the tolerances with 9mm and .40 cal are pretty similiar you'll be fine with either. ammo choice and shot placement is gonna be your saver.

vf111
02-06-2010, 7:59 PM
G23, because you can get a 9mm conversion barrel and magazine and shoot BOTH .40S&W and 9mm...

^this

You can't drop-in a 40 barrel on a 19 due to the 9mm breechface.

So get a 23 (or 32), buy a 9mm barrel for cheap(ER) practice and stick w/ the Glock 40 or 357SIG barrel for "social" work.....

reinerbs
02-08-2010, 6:21 PM
G19, because i like to shoot 9mm

gorenut
02-08-2010, 7:49 PM
I vote 19 as well. JHP makes it perfect for home defense.

Rob Roy
02-08-2010, 9:45 PM
Came to a conclusion that I prefer 19 after shooting 250 rounds of .40 in a row through 23...

El Gato
02-08-2010, 9:48 PM
why...?
the 23 is obnoxious to shoot... not obnoxious like a 27 mind you... but not fun...fun is my model 22 with a surefire 300 mounted on it...

the 19 is sweetness... and what is a milimeter of bullet diameter center of bad guy?
and 9mm is cheaper to shoot...
and corbon makes a wonderous carry load....:43:

TonyKat
02-08-2010, 9:51 PM
i bought a 19

Kimberpro
02-10-2010, 9:05 AM
100 percent agree with bigbob76..Glock 23 is snappyy!!!
I shot a 9mm sig and Now own a kimber 1911 pro carry 45 and that is no where near snappy compared to Glock 23..i am in the transition to get back a gLOCK , but now Glock 19 for home protection.. I was more into a hobby but no longer shooting as much i think the Glock 19 would be nice fir to shoot and home protection with heavier grain and Hollowpoint..

paradroid
02-11-2010, 1:09 AM
The 23 is very snappy for sure. I like the 19 myself.

glock23lover
02-11-2010, 4:35 PM
Every person has to get use to the weapon they choose. The 23 has more stopping power and the 9mm has a tendency to not slow targets down as much and go through them. As for the snappy aspect, it is all about practice and more practice.
Some enjoy as I do the snappyness and I enjoy the challenge of chasing the same hole if you will to increase my skills.
A very easy and nice CCW with good stopping power and nobody would have a chance attempting anything at my home. Of course my little 637 with hollow points is near as well. Just in case.

domeshotjuan2
02-11-2010, 6:03 PM
The 23 has more stopping power

what is this call of duty. lol. shoot em both and see what YOU like it depends on you i personally have a 19 with 147 grain jhp if you wanted you could use frangible ammo for home defense. i personally love my 19 the 23 wasnt too snappy for me. i just rather get a 45 then a 40 if you need more "stopping power". more knock down power with less snap then get the 45. more shooting time cheaper ammo get a 9. just my opinion though

qaz987
02-11-2010, 6:18 PM
2 to 1 again, how could I be wrong. :D

rockdogz
03-02-2010, 9:36 AM
Does a .45 have more stopping power than a .40?


The 23 has more stopping power

what is this call of duty. lol. shoot em both and see what YOU like it depends on you i personally have a 19 with 147 grain jhp if you wanted you could use frangible ammo for home defense. i personally love my 19 the 23 wasnt too snappy for me. i just rather get a 45 then a 40 if you need more "stopping power". more knock down power with less snap then get the 45. more shooting time cheaper ammo get a 9. just my opinion though

duc748bip
03-02-2010, 11:28 AM
Glock 19 is the easiest to shoot well. milder recoil and no DA/SA trigger.. BTW I do love all my DA/SA guns, I just don't have the time to practice much with it to feel confident that I can Shoot well in a stressful situation. But try out a 23 first, nothing wrong with a .40 for HD.

Flopper
03-02-2010, 6:16 PM
40 cal offers no advantage over 9mm these days. The technology of 9mm rounds and penetration is just as good as any 40. Look at ballistics. Further more the 9mm is easier on gun and you for better shoots with quicker follow-ups.

This.

But I'd go with a G34 :D

Colt-45
03-02-2010, 6:22 PM
They're the same gun, your only choosing a caliber. If your choosing a HD gun don't go with anything ported. 1 shot and you night vision is gone and it'll cover up the front sight with carbon, especially if you get night sights.

A ported gun would probably also be the worst thing you can possible shoot without ear protection and indoors :eek:

Turo
03-02-2010, 6:38 PM
Man, there's a lot of hate on the .40. I've shot both 9mm and .40s&w glocks, and IMHO there was very little difference between them in terms of recoil. I've even done side by side comparisons of a G17 and G27 (to get complete opposite ends of the spectrum) and other than grip size, they shoot almost identical.
:shrug:

californa
03-13-2010, 10:36 AM
both are good but i would rather a 19

Greg-Dawg
03-13-2010, 1:30 PM
G23 all the way. Read my sig.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Gregdog/Pin%20Ups/40SW31rounder001jpg.jpg

erratikmind
03-17-2010, 4:39 PM
For the OP's wife's needs, I would suggest a G19, if she is recoil sensitive. I have both the G23 and G19. Personally, I prefer the G23 for HD, which is what I use.

I have a second G23, which is my range/plinking gun. I have a 40-9 conversion barrel and an Advantage Arms 22lr conversion kit for it. It's one gun and 3 calibers at the range. However, I would not recommend using either kit for SD/HD.

If you opt for the G19, I would wait a bit for the Gen 4 G19 to come out and give that a look.

DaveFJ80
03-20-2010, 6:23 PM
I picked up a G19, and I'm extremely happy with it.

What I'm not happy about is how scarce the 9mm ammo is these days, where as you can walk into most So Cal Walmart stores and find heavily stocked Federal .40 ammo on the shelves.


As for the Gen 4 G19, I know it's going to have an ambi mag release. And the only other Glock that has one now is the G21SF, and there are known issues with that ambi release (negative issues). Supposedly the Gen4 models are to have corrected the problem, but we'll see. I'd rather stick with my tried & true Gen3 G19 for now.

Greg-Dawg
03-20-2010, 6:36 PM
G23 baby!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Gregdog/Pin%20Ups/40SW31rounder001jpg.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Gregdog/Pin%20Ups/Glockfamily001.jpg

dkthree
03-20-2010, 10:00 PM
G23 baby!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Gregdog/Pin%20Ups/40SW31rounder001jpg.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Gregdog/Pin%20Ups/Glockfamily001.jpg

Mmmmmm.... OD Green G35..... Must have...