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eight8
01-01-2010, 3:21 PM
I was in Manteca earlier today at the Bass Pro store. I noticed that there was no reloading components and no ammo other than shotgun shells.

I was told that all of the above was behind the counter. I didn't see any of it behind the counter. I asked a "grumpy" sales guy where the ammo was. He just said we can't display it and pushed a synopsis of the AB962 law at me. Basically all the ammo, all powder, brass, bullets and primers are out of sight.

I was looking for 22 ammo and just said screw it. I should have asked to see all the 22 ammo they had so that I could make a decision! Iwas extremely irritated!

I was also under the impression that this law doesn't go into effect until 2/1/2011. After reading the law, the Handgun Ammo purchase part where you leave a thumb print and show ID is effective on 2/1/2011.

Has Bass Pro jumped the gun?

ke6guj
01-01-2010, 3:25 PM
nope, BP did not jump the gun.

Parts of 962 went into effect today, and other parts go into effect 2/1/11.

The requirement that handgun ammo be sequestered away from the customers went into effect today.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2010, 3:26 PM
Sounds like they are working off of some FUD

eight8
01-01-2010, 3:33 PM
BP put everything other than Black Powder and shotgun shells behind the counter! No distinction between rifle or pistol

Leapin

hoffmang
01-01-2010, 3:38 PM
Also, reloading supplies are not impacted by AB-962.

-Gene

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2010, 3:41 PM
I believe that this is the copy of the bill that passed:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20090921_enrolled.pdf

There is no mention of January, or of 2010 in the bill, all the dates coincide with the February 1, 2011 date. The provision they are talking about is under section 3.5, there is no mention of it starting in 2010.

ke6guj
01-01-2010, 3:43 PM
Also, reloading supplies are not impacted by AB-962.

-Gene

missed that in the OP the first time that they put the components away as well. I already knew that they kept powder and primers behind the counter, missed that projectiles and cases were put away as well.

Is CADOJ required to put out supporting regulations that clarify what is considered "handgun ammo"? If not, I can easily see a BP or Turners taking the step off sequestering all ammo, to prevent a DA from claiming that they violated the law by having some rifle ammo available that could be used in a handgun.

kf6tac
01-01-2010, 3:44 PM
I believe that this is the copy of the bill that passed:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20090921_enrolled.pdf

There is no mention of January, or of 2010 in the bill, all the dates coincide with the February 1, 2011 date. The provision they are talking about is under section 3.5, there is no mention of it starting in 2010.

I think all newly passed provisions go into effect on the first day of the year following passage unless otherwise stated.

ke6guj
01-01-2010, 3:46 PM
IThere is no mention of January, or of 2010 in the bill, all the dates coincide with the February 1, 2011 date. The provision they are talking about is under section 3.5, there is no mention of it starting in 2010.

Normally, all laws go into effect at the beginning of hte year after it is signed. Arnold signed it in 2009, it then goes into effect 1/1/2010. It doesn't have to state that in the law.

Now, for a couple sections of the law, they postpone the enforcement date until 2/1/2011, but that doesn't mean that the entire law doesn't go into effect until 2/2/2011.

ironhiide
01-01-2010, 3:47 PM
Rancho Cucamonga's BP didnt move anything.

7.62x54R
01-01-2010, 3:53 PM
Weird i see no mention of anything starting this year all the points state in 2011 but who knows. I am sure the majority of California doesn't even know about AB962 or doesn't even care.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2010, 3:54 PM
"This bill would, subject to exceptions, commencing February 1,
2011"

The only exceptions that i can find are to whom the bill apply's too, no dates.

Someone needs to prove to me that any of this apply's as of now.

ke6guj
01-01-2010, 4:09 PM
"This bill would, subject to exceptions, commencing February 1,
2011"

The only exceptions that i can find are to whom the bill apply's too, no dates.

Someone needs to prove to me that any of this apply's as of now.

read the entire summary of the bill.



LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST


AB 962, De Leon. Ammunition.
Existing law generally regulates the sale of ammunition.
The bill would provide that no handgun ammunition vendor, as
defined, shall sell, offer for sale, or display for sale, any handgun
ammunition in a manner that allows that ammunition to be accessible
to a purchaser without the assistance of the vendor or employee
thereof.
Existing law generally regulates what information is required to
be obtained in connection with the transfer of ammunition.
This bill would, subject to exceptions, commencing February 1,
2011, require handgun ammunition vendors to obtain a thumbprint and
other information from ammunition purchasers, as specified. A
violation of these provisions would be a misdemeanor.
This bill would provide that a person enjoined from engaging in
activity associated with a criminal street gang, as specified, would
be prohibited from having under his or her possession, custody, or
control, any ammunition. Violation of these provisions would be a
misdemeanor.
The bill would prohibit supplying or delivering, as specified,
handgun ammunition to prohibited persons, as described, by persons or
others who know, or by using reasonable care should know, that the
recipient is a person prohibited from possessing ammunition or a
minor prohibited from possessing ammunition, as specified. Violation
of these provisions is a misdemeanor with specified penalties.
The bill would provide, subject to exceptions, that commencing
February 1, 2011, the delivery or transfer of ownership of handgun
ammunition may only occur in a face-to-face transaction, with the
deliverer or transferor being provided bona fide evidence of identity
of the purchaser or other transferee. A violation of these
provisions would be a misdemeanor.

The bolded sections do not contain the 2/2/2011 date and go into effect today, which is when most laws go into effect, on 1//. Only the underlined sections have a 2/1/2011 enactment date.

kf6tac
01-01-2010, 4:10 PM
"This bill would, subject to exceptions, commencing February 1,
2011"

The only exceptions that i can find are to whom the bill apply's too, no dates.

Someone needs to prove to me that any of this apply's as of now.

a) The legislative counsel's digest has no legal effect.

b) The full sentence is, "This bill would, subject to exceptions, commencing February 1, 2011, require handgun ammunition vendors to obtain a thumbprint and other information from ammunition purchasers, as specified." The exceptions referred to in that sentence are exceptions to the thumbprint requirement.

bodger
01-01-2010, 4:47 PM
So is this law in effect now or in Feb 2011? ??

I thought this didn't impact anything until then.

Has anyone seen an online vendor who has stated that they won't ship here already due to AB962?

My ire towards DeLeon is immeasurable.

eight8
01-01-2010, 4:47 PM
Here is what BP had printed to show ammo purchasers:
"(2) For purposes of this subdivision, “ammunition” shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence. “Ammunition” does not include blanks."

I find this troubling and very vague. Basically the law says ammo now means bullets - clips, magazines, speed loader, whats an autoloader? Bullets are components and are not capable of being fired unless they are part of a loaded cartridge. It would appear to me that component bullets are part of the law. I don't understand why clips and mags are considered ammo.

Lets say I wanted to buy a clip for my M1A, according to the above its ammo and I would have to give the thumb. Its not a clip for a handgun and does not shoot pistol ammo, I hope the vagueness of this law causes it to be struck down.

hoffmang
01-01-2010, 4:52 PM
Here is what BP had printed to show ammo purchasers:
"(2) For purposes of this subdivision, “ammunition” shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence. “Ammunition” does not include blanks."


I've hightlighted the important part. The 962 restrictions are only on "handgun ammuntion" which is not "ammunition." Further, "this subdivision" is the one about providing stuff to people you know to be prohibited. Librarian has an excellent write up that I can't usually find quickly that goes into detail why "bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with a deadly consequence" isn't effected by the passage of 962 as this was pre-existing law.

-Gene

kf6tac
01-01-2010, 4:53 PM
So is this law in effect now or in Feb 2011? ??

I thought this didn't impact anything until then.

Has anyone seen an online vendor who has stated that they won't ship here already due to AB962?

My ire towards DeLeon is immeasurable.

By my reading, anything in the bill that does not specifically state a Feb. 1, 2011 effective date is in effect now. Thumbprint and FTF transaction requirements both state Feb. 1 as the effective date, so that shouldn't affect shipping just yet.

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2010, 4:54 PM
It appears that the online ordering and the thumb print is feb 1, 2011 still. But i am still dubious.

Whatever it is, this is crap legislation.

IrishPirate
01-01-2010, 4:54 PM
nobody told an ammo dealer near my place that......:D TONS of handgun, rifle, and shotgun ammo out on shelfs....and no one around watching it either!!! they're not going to want to comply with AB962 so i'm sure once they get wind of what they'r going to have to do, they'll sell of their ammo super cheap and stop selling it all together. shame really.....we really need to get this BS law repealed!!

NorCalMama
01-01-2010, 4:56 PM
*sigh*, looks like I'll be heading up to Reno for ammo now. :mad:

NorCalMama
01-01-2010, 5:02 PM
Here is what BP had printed to show ammo purchasers:
"(2) For purposes of this subdivision, “ammunition” shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence. “Ammunition” does not include blanks."

Sweet mother of God. I have been needing to buy new mags for IDPA... I really really REALLY hate this state!
Ok, so wait, I need mags which according to the state now constitute projectiles that can kill somebody? What about mag holders? Do I have to give big brother my prints to get those or do I have to hop the Nevada border for those also??
:censored::rant:
HEY, I know this isn't the right forum, but anyone have any 9mm ammo, mags that fit a Glock G19, and mag holders (for the G19 mags) they wanna sell or trade?

ironhiide
01-01-2010, 5:04 PM
I just recalled that when I went to Bass Pro, the cashier at the front of the store asked for my ID, because I was purchasing rifle bullets, ie. components. I asked why was I being carded for reloading components, and he told me it was a new DOJ policy to make sure I was 21, but I stated that factory assembled rifle ammo can be purchased by someone of 18 years old.

bodger
01-01-2010, 5:34 PM
By my reading, anything in the bill that does not specifically state a Feb. 1, 2011 effective date is in effect now. Thumbprint and FTF transaction requirements both state Feb. 1 as the effective date, so that shouldn't affect shipping just yet.


FUD will no doubt abound and "better safe than sorry" will rule the day.

We still aren't clear, as far as I know, if ammo such as .223 and .22LR are going to be considered handgun ammo as well.

In any case. out of state vendors will probably (at least initially) cut sales to CA.

hoffmang
01-01-2010, 6:15 PM
Sweet mother of God. I have been needing to buy new mags for IDPA... I really really REALLY hate this state!
Ok, so wait, I need mags which according to the state now constitute projectiles that can kill somebody? What about mag holders? Do I have to give big brother my prints to get those or do I have to hop the Nevada border for those also??
:censored::rant:
HEY, I know this isn't the right forum, but anyone have any 9mm ammo, mags that fit a Glock G19, and mag holders (for the G19 mags) they wanna sell or trade?

NO!!! This is FUD. Only handgun ammunition is effected and for now (at most) all it means is that handgun ammunition has to be "behind the counter."

The section quoted above was already in place in previous years and all it does is ban giving those things to people known to be prohibited. Please see: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/2009_-_AB_962_De_Leon%2C_Ammunition

-Gene

GaryV
01-01-2010, 6:33 PM
This may not be just an AB962 thing. I went into a Bass Pro in Florida about a month ago. I've been to this same store many times, over many years, and they've always had their ammo all out on the floor, including a big rack full of handgun ammo. This time, however, I couldn't find any handgun ammo at all, and the rack was full of shotgun shells. Turns out they had moved all the handgun ammo behind the counter. I didn't look at reloading supplies, but I had to hunt around to find the rifle ammo. It was still on the floor, but had moved and was more "hidden" than it had been before. At first I thought all they had was shotgun shells as well. Since I know Florida hasn't passed any stupid ammo laws recently, I figured this was just a Bass Pro policy change.

Oldbud
01-01-2010, 6:45 PM
I've hightlighted the important part. The 962 restrictions are only on "handgun ammuntion" which is not "ammunition." Further, "this subdivision" is the one about providing stuff to people you know to be prohibited. Librarian has an excellent write up that I can't usually find quickly that goes into detail why "bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with a deadly consequence" isn't effected by the passage of 962 as this was pre-existing law.

-GeneFound the thread-
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=230961

Nxd9ar15xcrL
01-01-2010, 6:46 PM
NO!!! This is FUD. Only handgun ammunition is effected and for now (at most) all it means is that handgun ammunition has to be "behind the counter."

The section quoted above was already in place in previous years and all it does is ban giving those things to people known to be prohibited. Please see: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/2009_-_AB_962_De_Leon%2C_Ammunition

-Gene

Thanks Calguns Crew.

I love being correct.

tazmanian devil dog
01-01-2010, 7:00 PM
I will not be buying handgun ammo in this state ever again. Reno is only 3 hours away. I have been and always will be a law abiding citizen and as such, I WILL NOT EVER submit my fingerprints or anything else to Kalifornia in order to buy ammo. This is a sad state of affairs. I just pray that the Calguns Foundation can get this law outed.

NorCalMama
01-01-2010, 7:01 PM
NO!!! This is FUD. Only handgun ammunition is effected and for now (at most) all it means is that handgun ammunition has to be "behind the counter."

The section quoted above was already in place in previous years and all it does is ban giving those things to people known to be prohibited. Please see: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/2009_-_AB_962_De_Leon%2C_Ammunition

-Gene

Good... I guess it's because I wouldn't put anything past our legislature so when I read that I was horrified. Thanks for the clarification!

bodger
01-01-2010, 7:48 PM
I will not be buying handgun ammo in this state ever again. Reno is only 3 hours away. I have been and always will be a law abiding citizen and as such, I WILL NOT EVER submit my fingerprints or anything else to Kalifornia in order to buy ammo. This is a sad state of affairs. I just pray that the Calguns Foundation can get this law outed.



I feel the same way. There has been a similar law in Los Angeles for a while now, fingerprints and ID anyway. I never have and never will submit to that crap.
If this joke isn't overturned by 2011, I'll go out of state. If I'm notalready moved out of here that is.

krushem2000
01-01-2010, 7:57 PM
There is no reason for state of CA to know what I am buying. Think we have enough problems with big brother watching. Not many people buy ammo within Sacramento county due to thumbprint stuff. Repeal the law or witness slow death of gun shops here in CA when nobody even Big 5 will carry ammo.:( even the new handgun law microstamp law went in effect today as I recall supposely all new hanguns must have capability to microstamp serial number on brass casing when fired.

Corbin Dallas
01-01-2010, 8:31 PM
There is no reason for state of CA to know what I am buying. Think we have enough problems with big brother watching. Not many people buy ammo within Sacramento county due to thumbprint stuff. Repeal the law or witness slow death of gun shops here in CA when nobody even Big 5 will carry ammo.:( even the new handgun law microstamp law went in effect today as I recall supposely all new hanguns must have capability to microstamp serial number on brass casing when fired.

Wait until you have to give your fingerprint to get gas for your vehicle.

I mean, Gas is an explosive and an automobile can be a deadly weapon right???

Where oh where does the madness end...

OH yea, at the state line!

CSDGuy
01-01-2010, 8:48 PM
There is no reason for state of CA to know what I am buying. Think we have enough problems with big brother watching. Not many people buy ammo within Sacramento countydue to thumbprint stuff. Repeal the law or witness slow death of gun shops here in CA when nobody even Big 5 will carry ammo.:( even the new handgun law microstamp law went in effect today as I recall supposely all new hanguns must have capability to microstamp serial number on brass casing when fired.
Sacramento CITY's ammo law requiring the thumbprint is only effective within the CITY of Sacramento. For instance, the Walmart in Elk Grove does not have to follow Sacramento CITY's law, even if the buyer is a Sacramento CITY resident.

The microstamping law can not become effective until the technology is shown to be completely unencumbered by patent restrictions. That means the patent holder has to give up all control and rights to the technology that he/they had patented for the process... and that also means all the revenue that would go along with it...

So, you could say that one safety mechanism (the date) has been removed... now all that is left is the removal of all patent encumbrances... and DOJ hearings... and so on.

Seesm
01-01-2010, 8:55 PM
Hmmm my local drug store that carries handgun ammo has it all out in a locked glass cabinet still.... mmmm Daddy like.

HK-DEMON-
01-01-2010, 9:19 PM
I was in Manteca earlier today at the Bass Pro store. I noticed that there was no reloading components and no ammo other than shotgun shells.

I was told that all of the above was behind the counter. I didn't see any of it behind the counter. I asked a "grumpy" sales guy where the ammo was. He just said we can't display it and pushed a synopsis of the AB962 law at me. Basically all the ammo, all powder, brass, bullets and primers are out of sight.

I was looking for 22 ammo and just said screw it. I should have asked to see all the 22 ammo they had so that I could make a decision! Iwas extremely irritated!

I was also under the impression that this law doesn't go into effect until 2/1/2011. After reading the law, the Handgun Ammo purchase part where you leave a thumb print and show ID is effective on 2/1/2011.

Has Bass Pro jumped the gun?

no they have not jumped the gun their just a bunch of @$#*% ive been to that bass pro shop in manteca and they just treat people like if they were criminals,well treated me like one.i waited on the counter to get some help to see if they had the value pack of 9mm ammo in stock nobody came up to me asking if i needed help i was comepletely ignored,i then proceeded to come up to two guys who were talking behind the counter and i asked one of them if they had the value pack available he looked at me and looked at the other guy with a grin in his face like if i was some type of criminal so i decided to head out and headed down the street to wal-mart where i happily bought 2 packs of value 9mm didnt even need to show id.

eight8
01-01-2010, 10:36 PM
I agree with HK. When I asked about ammo I got a look and an attitude. There was no follow up question like "what do you need?" or "let me help you with that"

I actually had the nerve to want to spend some of my hard earned money at their store!

leitung
01-02-2010, 1:25 PM
I bought a 4x4 pickup just to do hauls for ammo over the pass from nevada.
I also am learning to reload..

bodger
01-02-2010, 1:55 PM
I bought a 4x4 pickup just to do hauls for ammo over the pass from nevada.
I also am learning to reload..



I have a F-250 3/4 ton pickup for out of state ammo runs. And I too am going to invest in reloading gear and supplies.

They DO NOT get my print and ID just because idiots like DeLeon have convinced other idiots to vote him into office.

krushem2000
01-02-2010, 6:26 PM
I have a F-250 3/4 ton pickup for out of state ammo runs. And I too am going to invest in reloading gear and supplies.

They DO NOT get my print and ID just because idiots like DeLeon have convinced other idiots to vote him into office.

GROUP BUY? :D

bodger
01-02-2010, 6:55 PM
GROUP BUY? :D


As long as it's legal, I'm up for that.

I imagine there will be a helluva black market for ammo in CA if this law drives the price up. I don't know if it will, but it might somehow.

eight8
01-02-2010, 8:38 PM
I've hightlighted the important part. The 962 restrictions are only on "handgun ammuntion" which is not "ammunition." Further, "this subdivision" is the one about providing stuff to people you know to be prohibited. Librarian has an excellent write up that I can't usually find quickly that goes into detail why "bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with a deadly consequence" isn't effected by the passage of 962 as this was pre-existing law.

-Gene

Thanks Hoffmang!

Southpaw45
01-02-2010, 9:31 PM
I was just at Bass Pro Shops in Manteca today to inspect the damage that AB962 has done and it was alot. I asked one of the salesman why all the rifle ammo was hidden because I thought the new law only affected handgun ammo. He told me it was because of the Thompson Contender type handguns that are capable of firing rifle calibers. I find this to be total BS. And why do they hide the reloading components? He told me he doesnt have a clue why. What gives? :confused:

tedbeemer
01-02-2010, 11:31 PM
It's here for sure. Miwall had handgun ammo behind the counter at Cal Expo today. You'll see it first hand at the Cow Palace show later this month.

FISHNFRANK
01-03-2010, 6:20 AM
I was in two Turners Outdoorsman this week and they have also moved all of their Pistol and Revolver ammo behind the counter - I wasn't 100% sure it was due to the law but didn't ask. Some outlets have been making ammo inacessable do to the scarcity of bullets and the increase in shoplifting....

Frank

GrayWolf09
01-03-2010, 8:41 AM
I was just at Bass Pro Shops in Manteca today to inspect the damage that AB962 has done and it was alot. I asked one of the salesman why all the rifle ammo was hidden because I thought the new law only affected handgun ammo. He told me it was because of the Thompson Contender type handguns that are capable of firing rifle calibers. I find this to be total BS. And why do they hide the reloading components? He told me he doesnt have a clue why. What gives? :confused:

FUD see the excellent analysis at: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=230961

Means principally used in handguns and does not include reloading components.

TurnersGunslinger
01-04-2010, 9:16 AM
Under the provisions of AB 962 Effective Jan 1, 2010 (Ammo vendors eill e required to store Handgun ammo out of the reach of customers(e.g. behind the sales counter) PC section 12061 (a)(2). No FUD! just the way it is.

CMonfort
01-04-2010, 4:57 PM
I am in the process of preparing a comprehensive guide to be distributed to all CA firearm retailers and ammunition vendors. This guide will break down and detail the various requirements of AB 962 to ensure that dealers know what it is they do and don't have to do under the new laws.

spencerhut
01-07-2010, 1:39 PM
The reaction you get from most freedom lovers is, obey the law sure. None of us want to get in trouble so you abide by the letter of the stupid law, like we do with off list lowers. But Bass Pro is going way beyond the letter of the already draconian law.

Hiding primers and powder? Give me a break. I was spending couple hundred bucks there each time I went. I was there at least once a month since it opened. I will not be back unless they make a change.

You never know, the Manteca Bass Pro could be run by a "progressive" type or a commie. The store manager is a guy named Dan Dugger. I looked him up, but could not find much. For all we know he's all into fishing but hates gun owners. This is California after all, there are a lot of that type of people in this state.

smird
01-07-2010, 6:05 PM
Rancho Cucamonga's BP didnt move anything.

I was just in Bass Pro Rancho Cucamonga. All handgun ammo is now behind the counter. Reloading components have not moved.

Brad

Esquire
01-11-2010, 10:48 AM
I was just in Bass Pro Rancho Cucamonga. All handgun ammo is now behind the counter. Reloading components have not moved.

Brad

Even 22lr and 22 WMR are now behind the counter. :(

Artsville
01-11-2010, 12:43 PM
Was at Manteca Bass Pro yesterday and bought .40S&W. It was behind the counter but just paid and left. No paperwork or fingerprint......but that's funny cause my dad was there just 3 days earlier and they mentioned he would need to get fingerprinted and the whole deal.

smallshot13
01-11-2010, 2:51 PM
I've hightlighted the important part. The 962 restrictions are only on "handgun ammuntion" which is not "ammunition." Further, "this subdivision" is the one about providing stuff to people you know to be prohibited. Librarian has an excellent write up that I can't usually find quickly that goes into detail why "bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with a deadly consequence" isn't effected by the passage of 962 as this was pre-existing law.

-Gene

During the internal CalGuns debate on this very issue, there were those who urged recognition that this 'interpretation' of the bill would occur. They were cautioned that was not to be discussed, for fear that someone would indeed interpret thus. I don't know what we could have done to change it, other than to seek legislative clarification (that's an oxymoron), but here we are, a few days into the effects, and here it is, restrictions on bullets. Sad, sad situation.

shadowofnight
01-11-2010, 3:27 PM
Was at Manteca Bass Pro yesterday and bought .40S&W. It was behind the counter but just paid and left. No paperwork or fingerprint......but that's funny cause my dad was there just 3 days earlier and they mentioned he would need to get fingerprinted and the whole deal.

The sign in the Manteca store specifically said NO fingerprinting...


Here is the actual sign at the Manteca Bass Pro, everybody we spoke to in the store ( Customers ) were disgusted they moved the reloading components behind the counter as well ( Actually only saw primers and handgun ammo behind the counter....the brass came from WAY behind the counter in the back storage area ...salesman had to leave the counter and walk all the way around and through the doors to go get the brass )


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42547&d=1263255895

bodger
01-11-2010, 4:31 PM
No doubt the online vendors will spook in the same direction and from the same FUD driven fear. and many won't be willing to send any ammo at all out here or any reloading supplies either. During the internal CalGuns debate on this very issue, there were those who urged recognition that this 'interpretation' of the bill would occur. They were cautioned that was not to be discussed, for fear that someone would indeed interpret thus. I don't know what we could have done to change it, other than to seek legislative clarification (that's an oxymoron), but here we are, a few days into the effects, and here it is, restrictions on bullets. Sad, sad situation.

klmmicro
01-13-2010, 5:51 AM
but here we are, a few days into the effects, and here it is, restrictions on bullets. Sad, sad situation.

Sad situation indeed...but I cannot help to think that we are seeing the actual "intent" of the law. The powers that be cannot win outright in their quest to end firearms possession and ownership in the state, so they go after another component...ammo. They KNEW that the resulting confusion would further their cause.

I spoke with a couple of ammunition and reloading component e-tailers (Midwayusa and Cabela's) and they have no intention of restricting sales of bullets, primers, casings or powder to the California unless something new is passed. This is good news for us. Both also mentioned that they have paid close attention to the law (both before passage and now) and will not be "jumping the gun" to enact any restrictive portion of the measure until the very second that it is to be enforced. This covered all ammunition sales as well.

At least a few businesses are supporting us as best they can, despite the idiots that are writing this useless feel-good legislation.

smallshot13
03-18-2010, 9:40 PM
Is there any plan to have any semi official action taken to address this issue? I can write a letter, but as a non-attorney and a 'former' customer who will no longer purchase anything from Bass Pro, I am invisible to them. They still insist that 962 prohibits them from having any handgun reloading components in the isles, despite being shown a copy of the chaptered bill. It seams that they interpret 12017 as the clause that drives their concern. Is there something simple that CalGuns can do? I'm not worried about one store, but this stuff turns into a contageous desease sometimes. It is hard enough finding reloading components as it is.

JDay
03-18-2010, 9:57 PM
There is no reason for state of CA to know what I am buying. Think we have enough problems with big brother watching. Not many people buy ammo within Sacramento county due to thumbprint stuff. Repeal the law or witness slow death of gun shops here in CA when nobody even Big 5 will carry ammo.:( even the new handgun law microstamp law went in effect today as I recall supposely all new hanguns must have capability to microstamp serial number on brass casing when fired.

That law only applies to the city of Sacramento, not the county. The microstamping law also is not in effect yet.

bambam8d1
03-18-2010, 10:14 PM
sorry a bit off topic, but its only for handgun ammo right? can you still order rifle ammo online?

Librarian
03-19-2010, 6:44 AM
sorry a bit off topic, but its only for handgun ammo right? can you still order rifle ammo online?

Yes - and even handgun ammunition until Feb 1, 2011, when the bill is supposed to take its final effect.

See http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/2009_-_AB_962_De_Leon%2C_Ammunition

lewdogg21
03-19-2010, 7:27 AM
I was at BPS in Manteca yesterday and all rifle ammo and (seemingly although I wasn't specifically looking for it) reloading components were out I did not see any handgun ammo behind the counter. I guess they keep it out of view? I didn't need any so I didn't inquire as to what they had.

I did find it odd that .17 (HMR/HM2) was behind the counter according to a sign. If there are .17 pistols it's news to me.

Also their pistol prices are high. $419 for a Taurus PT-145.

TrooperMKIII
03-19-2010, 8:59 AM
I posted in an earlier thread about Bass Pro. What is troubling is their interpretation of the law, especially this part:

"(2) For purposes of this subdivision, “ammunition” shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence. “Ammunition” does not include blanks."

I know and you know that the law is meant to keep handgun ammunition--bullet, brass, powder and primer, all assembled so it can be shot out of a gun--behind the counter. Bass Pro and I am sure others are keeping everything that is associated with handguns, including reloading components, behind the counter. Not even .224 projectiles are on the shelf.

The bigger problem lies when Midway, Cabela's, Midsouth, Wideners, Powder Valley and the like interpret the law the same way. I am sure you can't buy anything handgun related from BassPro online at this point.

We just need this crappy law repealed because I don't think these retailers are going to take the time to really examine AB962.

smallshot13
03-21-2010, 9:16 PM
Trooper, I agree that is their mis-interpretation, but during the debate on 962, before it was signed, this very point was brought up with intent to seek clarity. Librarian at that time admonished those who brought it up, indicating that we were just providing vague interpretations that might some how harm us in the future. Here we are, in the future, without in any way, lending to their mis-interpretation. My question was to anyone with official standing with CalGuns; is there any way a letter can be written from a more 'official' source to these retailers who mis-interpret the bill?

Librarian
03-22-2010, 7:13 AM
I posted in an earlier thread about Bass Pro. What is troubling is their interpretation of the law, especially this part:

"(2) For purposes of this subdivision, “ammunition” shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence. “Ammunition” does not include blanks."

I know and you know that the law is meant to keep handgun ammunition--bullet, brass, powder and primer, all assembled so it can be shot out of a gun--behind the counter. Bass Pro and I am sure others are keeping everything that is associated with handguns, including reloading components, behind the counter. Not even .224 projectiles are on the shelf.

The bigger problem lies when Midway, Cabela's, Midsouth, Wideners, Powder Valley and the like interpret the law the same way. I am sure you can't buy anything handgun related from BassPro online at this point.

We just need this crappy law repealed because I don't think these retailers are going to take the time to really examine AB962.

+1 for repeal

But read the link I posted above - what you quote as what Bass Pro is using is NOT the definition for AB 962.

Trouble is, almost have to be a lawyer to read it and get the distinction.

smallshot13
03-22-2010, 3:12 PM
+1 for repeal

But read the link I posted above - what you quote as what Bass Pro is using is NOT the definition for AB 962.

Trouble is, almost have to be a lawyer to read it and get the distinction.

Librarian, as you well know, AB 962 amended and added several sections. One section added was 12317, which states:

12317. (a) Any person, corporation, or firm who supplies, delivers,
sells, or gives possession or control of, any ammunition to any person
who he or she knows or using reasonable care should know is prohibited from
owning, possessing, or having under his or her custody or control, any
ammunition or reloaded ammunition pursuant to paragraph (1) or (4) of
subdivision (b) of Section 12316, is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable
by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or a fine not
exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and
imprisonment.
(b) The provisions of this section are cumulative and shall not be
construed as restricting the application of any other law. However, an act
or omission punishable in different ways by this section and another
provision of law shall not be punished under more than one provision.
(c) For purposes of this section, “ammunition” shall include, but not be
limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader,
or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with deadly consequence.
“Ammunition” does not include blanks.

The definition in (c) is the offending section that apparantely is the basis for Bass Pro's actions. Sadly, AB1663 does not repeal that section, so even if that gets approved, which I doubt, we are still left with 12317. That is, and was the section that many requested clarification on during the initial fight, and to which you strongly admonished those who brought up the issue, to refrain, lest we give the opposition any ideas. Irony squared.

Librarian
03-22-2010, 7:55 PM
Librarian, as you well know, AB 962 amended and added several sections. One section added was 12317, which states:

12317. (a) Any person, corporation, or firm who supplies, delivers,
sells, or gives possession or control of, any ammunition to any person
who he or she knows or using reasonable care should know is prohibited from
owning, possessing, or having under his or her custody or control, any
ammunition or reloaded ammunition pursuant to paragraph (1) or (4) of
subdivision (b) of Section 12316, is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable
by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or a fine not
exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and
imprisonment.
(b) The provisions of this section are cumulative and shall not be
construed as restricting the application of any other law. However, an act
or omission punishable in different ways by this section and another
provision of law shall not be punished under more than one provision.
(c) For purposes of this section, “ammunition” shall include, but not be
limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader,
or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with deadly consequence.
“Ammunition” does not include blanks.

The definition in (c) is the offending section that apparantely is the basis for Bass Pro's actions. Sadly, AB1663 does not repeal that section, so even if that gets approved, which I doubt, we are still left with 12317. That is, and was the section that many requested clarification on during the initial fight, and to which you strongly admonished those who brought up the issue, to refrain, lest we give the opposition any ideas. Irony squared.

Did you read the wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/2009_-_AB_962_De_Leon%2C_Ammunition)?

12317 is NOT, repeat NOT the definition used for handgun ammunition in 12318. Nor does that definition apply ANYWHERE but inside 12317 (and the similar definition in 12316 applies ONLY in 12316) -- that's the meaning of "for purposes of this section".

That Bass Pro and others seem to believe so is unfortunate, but I don't have the Cold Trout Of Truth to whap them on the the head to make them think.

smallshot13
03-22-2010, 9:28 PM
Did you read the wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/2009_-_AB_962_De_Leon%2C_Ammunition)?

12317 is NOT, repeat NOT the definition used for handgun ammunition in 12318. Nor does that definition apply ANYWHERE but inside 12317 (and the similar definition in 12316 applies ONLY in 12316) -- that's the meaning of "for purposes of this section".

That Bass Pro and others seem to believe so is unfortunate, but I don't have the Cold Trout Of Truth to whap them on the the head to make them think.

Librarian, I read the bill, in its many iterations, through to the chaptered version, and I read the Wiki, which has no legal standing. You do not seam to recognize that others, myself included, warned that the obtuse language in 12317 would be mis-interpreted, and you in effect, told us to sit down and shut up. While sane and rational people such as you, I, and the rest of CalGuns interpret the language clearly, we have to realize that we are at the mercy of the interpretation of others in its implementation. That is why we debate here, to uncover those potential irrationalities and attempt to do something about them before they become mis-interpreted law.

Now that we have the law, going back and reading the Wiki does not change the language of 12317, it is what it is, and they are interpreting it as a restriction on their openly displaying handgun reloading components as giving possession or control to someone whom they have not excersized reasonable care to determine if they are a prohibited person. If they were to read 12317 carefully, and in the isolation they seam to be doing, they would note that it does not restrict itself to handgun ammunition at all, and I suspect that some anti will come up with that interpretation soon enough and our long gun reloading components will suffer the same irrational treatment.

In retrospect, I should not have 'sat down and shut up' when you chastized, but should have continued my debate, lesson learned. So in this open debate forum, we should all calmly continue to state our observations and concerns until superior reason, not emotional rehtoric, lead us to change our minds. Let's hope that AB 1663 gets ammended to include a repeal of 12317 as well, and gets approved and signed into law. Until that unlikely occurrence, we will need to all pull together and trust that the legal challenges to come will do the chore, the complete chore, including striking down 12317.

Librarian
03-22-2010, 9:55 PM
Librarian, I read the bill, in its many iterations, through to the chaptered version, and I read the Wiki, which has no legal standing.
No it doesn't.

What it DOES do, however, is point out the actual language of the Penal Code, which does 'have legal standing'.

And that language is pellucidly clear that the definitions in sections 12316 and 12317 apply only to those respective sections.

12318 has its own clearly specified definition. (Well, it points to a particular, and different, piece of code than 12317(c) - I won't go so far as to say "principally for use" is all that clear.)


You do not seam to recognize that others, myself included, warned that the obtuse language in 12317 would be mis-interpreted, and you in effect, told us to sit down and shut up. While sane and rational people such as you, I, and the rest of CalGuns interpret the language clearly, we have to realize that we are at the mercy of the interpretation of others in its implementation. That is why we debate here, to uncover those potential irrationalities and attempt to do something about them before they become mis-interpreted law.

So, I'm curious. In your opinion, exactly what difference would earlier discussion have made?

I don't recall anything resembling 'sit down and shut up' out of me, but if that's how you received the message, I apologize.

smallshot13
03-22-2010, 10:27 PM
We all agree that the definition in 12317 only applies to 12317, no confusion on anyones part there. It's just that that section says that it is a crime to give possession or control of ammunition as defined broadley, to a potentially prohibited person, without excercizing reasonable care to ascertain such standing. 12317 was added by AB 962. 12317 does not really restrict itself to handgun ammunition. Thus, that seamingly benign language leads to retailers locking up reloading components. It is a burden on them, and the shopping public, to have to wait for assistance to find out if they have brass in stock. And when some anti reads the section and decides it does not seam to be restricted to handgun ammunition, but any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile, no matter what caliber, then we may hear a much louder cry. I'm sure your original language was not meant to say 'sit down and shut up', but it was a strong admonishment from a well respected senior member of this forum, to a newb who was asking questions about obtuse language that has now come home to roost. As I said, the fault was mine for not standing ground until I had made my concerns understood, no apology needed.