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halifax
12-31-2009, 2:56 AM
NOT to sell a gun to his mother? The woman is 70 years old and not prohibited but her son saw her car at my shop and called me. She lives alone and has taken/passed the CCW course with a borrowed gun. Her son is afraid she is becoming paranoid and shouldn't have a gun in the house. She seemed OK to me but I'm not a doctor.

Corbin Dallas
12-31-2009, 8:29 AM
In my experience, stay out of family matters. If the son does not want the mother to have a firearm, it's not your duty to enforce it.

Tell the son that he needs to talk with his mother, not you.

Chris M
12-31-2009, 8:37 AM
If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't sell her the gun, simply because I'm the type of person that will try to keep the peace. If you need the money, try to sell your gun here on Calguns.

If she wants to buy a gun, she's going to buy a gun. I don't think she's going to care if it comes from you, a gun shop, or any other legal means. Maybe recommend a few places that she can purchase one.

HUTCH 7.62
12-31-2009, 8:40 AM
In my experience, stay out of family matters. If the son does not want the mother to have a firearm, it's not your duty to enforce it.

Tell the son that he needs to talk with his mother, not you.

^this

Sell the gun to her anyway, after all she passed the CCW can't be anymore of a looney then us calgunners.

halifax
12-31-2009, 11:03 AM
In my experience, stay out of family matters. If the son does not want the mother to have a firearm, it's not your duty to enforce it.

Tell the son that he needs to talk with his mother, not you.

This is my inclination. Unfortunately, her son is a good customer of mine. I'm going to talk with him again and see if he can remove me from the middle of this. Damn, I wish he hadn't put me there in the first place. :(

Sig-Bob
12-31-2009, 11:30 AM
I would stay FAR FAR away from this!

Steyrlp10
12-31-2009, 11:34 AM
Boy is this a sticky situation -- and you have my empathy. In my line of work, we have similar issues with driving. Some people, regardless of their chronological ages, should not be behind the wheel. They're fighting with their kids and you know, it may be a disaster waiting to happen.

I have to agree with the other Calgunners though... it's not fair that you're stuck in the middle. The son should take his concerns to an elder care professional/physician.

Maybe she'd feel better if he got her a really good alarm system for her home?

ponderosa
12-31-2009, 1:28 PM
The son put you in a tight spot for sure. Maybe he has a really good reason, but he should be the one talking his mother out of it not you, so tell him that maybe?

Rob454
12-31-2009, 7:56 PM
Unless the son has power of attorney and she is deemed incapable of making decisions for herself ( AND he has to have the proof ) legally there is nothing he can do to stop the sale. If you say you wont sell her the gun then how does a nice lawsuit for discriminating against the elderly sound like to you. ( you say customer so im assuming you are a gun store?) if its just a PPT then its your choice. If she is gonna want a gun she is gonna get a gun either from you or someone else.
its not the sons decision on weather or not his mom can have a gun. Liek I said unless he can have her declared mentally incompetent and has PoA then he is SOL.

halifax
12-31-2009, 8:15 PM
Unless the son has power of attorney and she is deemed incapable of making decisions for herself ( AND he has to have the proof ) legally there is nothing he can do to stop the sale. If you say you wont sell her the gun then how does a nice lawsuit for discriminating against the elderly sound like to you. ( you say customer so im assuming you are a gun store?) if its just a PPT then its your choice. If she is gonna want a gun she is gonna get a gun either from you or someone else.
its not the sons decision on weather or not his mom can have a gun. Liek I said unless he can have her declared mentally incompetent and has PoA then he is SOL.

Hence, my dilema.

What if she does something really stupid with the gun? The son testifies that he tried to stop the sale but the greedy gun dealer went through with it anyway. Don't I, as a businessman, have the right to refuse service to anyone?

:(

gravedigger
12-31-2009, 8:51 PM
When I was a young boy, there was this guy down the street who owned a dune buggy. He was the "old guy" (age 34). Now at 51, I am old enough to be that "old guy's" father. Age places a certain perspective on things that those who have not yet achieved that age can never fully understand.

Is the son a liberal? When the son carries a gun, is he "paranoid?" The line of thinking that concludes that "I have decided that *I* am okay to CCW but I have decided that *YOU* are not" is exactly what drives the elite LEFT's argument against the unINFRINGED exercise of the 2nd amendment.

Don't assume that just because the mother is 70, she no longer has good sense. With all of the talk on this board about 2nd Amendment rights and the free exercise of them, Open Carry for the sake of exercising one's RIGHT to bear arms and all of that, I am puzzled by someone who would conclude that this woman is ANY less deserving of the right to self defense than any other citizen. The logical extension of that argument is that ordinary citizens should not be allowed to carry because they don't have the "training" that "professionals like cops" have, yadda yadda.

Tell the son that a bad guy is FAR more likely to prey on his mother than on him, in any given situation where each of them are alone. Unless he is psychic, he can not predict with any greater accuracy when someone is going to kick in his mother's door while she is home alone, or assault her in a parking lot as she exits a mall. Unless she is mentally unstable (Altzheimers, etc.) she has as much right to CCW as anyone, ESPECIALLY since she has taken the steps to do it LEGALLY. Tell him also, that 70 is not "old."

djbooya
12-31-2009, 11:21 PM
Hence, my dilema.

What if she does something really stupid with the gun? The son testifies that he tried to stop the sale but the greedy gun dealer went through with it anyway. Don't I, as a businessman, have the right to refuse service to anyone?

:(

Yes, you have the right to refuse service to anyone.. and likewise, you can't be held liable...otherwise all the gun grabbers would say "well we tried to stop the selling of all guns, but those gun dealers did it anyway...they must be liable..." and that tired argument comes back and fails again...

I would trust your gut..

TripleT
01-01-2010, 7:21 AM
Tough one, especially because you'd assume the son would know better than anyone his mother's state of mind. Add to that the guy is a good customer and that really makes it tough. I also see it as not really being fair that he has put you in this situation. I think your on the right track in talking to him about it and telling him you respect his mother's wishes in wanting to aquire a firearm and you really don't want to be the one to "let her down" by telling her you won't sell it to her. Or something along those lines.

Let us know if you can pull it off. If so, a run for public office may be in your future... :p

halifax
01-01-2010, 8:52 AM
The revolver she wants is unobtainable at this time. Maybe she will find something somewhere else, I hope.

wilit
01-01-2010, 8:59 AM
NOT to sell a gun to his mother? The woman is 70 years old and not prohibited but her son saw her car at my shop and called me. She lives alone and has taken/passed the CCW course with a borrowed gun. Her son is afraid she is becoming paranoid and shouldn't have a gun in the house. She seemed OK to me but I'm not a doctor.

Like it's been said before, it's the son's duty to police his mother, not yours. If he feels she's becoming paranoid, then he should follow the proper procedure to have her checked out in a mental facility.

Corbin Dallas
01-01-2010, 11:43 AM
Hence, my dilema.

What if she does something really stupid with the gun? The son testifies that he tried to stop the sale but the greedy gun dealer went through with it anyway. Don't I, as a businessman, have the right to refuse service to anyone?

:(


How are you going to feel if something DOES happen to her and her so called paranoia is actually a real predator looking to do harm to this lady.

I say 70 and passed the CCW course = No reason NOT to sell her a firearm.

If she came in and only expressed interest in obtaining a firearm as quick as possible with conversations expressing extreme paranoia and hatred of the government wearing a tin foil hat, THEN you might want to consider NOT selling her a firearm.

Just my .02

tenpercentfirearms
01-01-2010, 2:37 PM
I would tell the son that she is an adult, has a CCW, and so I have no reason to deny her sale. If he feels so strongly about it, he should talk to his mother or the authorities. It isn't a dealer's duty to enforce the morals of society unless a clear and imminent danger is presented.

Examples: Mom says she is buying the gun to killer herself or others. Other than that, it isn't your job to police her. If you lose the guy as a customer, so be it. You also gain the mom as a customer so it equals out.

kemasa
01-01-2010, 3:13 PM
One question is whether to tell the mother that the son did that. If you refused to sell to her, you would need to tell her that. If you go through with the sale, then do you tell her what her son is doing?

The son should have just dealt with his mother and kept you out of it.

djbooya
01-01-2010, 3:14 PM
I would tell the son that she is an adult, has a CCW, and so I have no reason to deny her sale. If he feels so strongly about it, he should talk to his mother or the authorities. It isn't a dealer's duty to enforce the morals of society unless a clear and imminent danger is presented.

Examples: Mom says she is buying the gun to killer herself or others. Other than that, it isn't your job to police her. If you lose the guy as a customer, so be it. You also gain the mom as a customer so it equals out.

I generally agree with the above, but what if this scenario occurred:

Example: Mom comes in fully qualified to purchase a firearm, but is clearly intoxicated. She is fine answering all the questions since none of them have to do with being intoxicated. Should you still sell her a firearm since it isn't your duty to enforce the morals of society? Judgement call I suppose.

She comes back after 10 day wait, is able to complete the safety test, etc..., but is still intoxicated...is the dealer breaking any laws by handing over the firearm? No, it's not the dealer's job to give a breathalyzer.

Should the dealer complete the sale since they have no duty to enforce the morals of society? Judgement call again I suppose.

Is being intoxicated a clear sign of clear and imminent danger? Not necessarily...

I know in the example of the OP it is sort of heresay as to the state of the buyer, but in other examples it gets even more muddy...

Oh here's another gray area example:
Guy comes in, all thugged out and claims to be from a gang. Shows his MS13 tats and all.
Claims that he needs the firearm to protect himself on the streets.
Sale or no sale?

Say you go with the sale, he comes back passing DROS after 10 days. You do the safety test and he passes with flying colors, brings his gun lock and everything. Before you sign off on the paperwork he says, "Yeah, now I can pack on the street and protect my corner while I'm dealing dope..."... now what should happen?

I always wondered about these gray areas and how dealers would handle them.

tenpercentfirearms
01-02-2010, 7:48 AM
I generally agree with the above, but what if this scenario occurred:

Example: Mom comes in fully qualified to purchase a firearm, but is clearly intoxicated. She is fine answering all the questions since none of them have to do with being intoxicated. Should you still sell her a firearm since it isn't your duty to enforce the morals of society? Judgement call I suppose.I have always contemplated selling alcohol in a gun shop to help facilitate these types of sales. Better yet, hire some young, large breasted ladies to be sales staff and have a skimpy work uniform would be even better.

She comes back after 10 day wait, is able to complete the safety test, etc..., but is still intoxicated...is the dealer breaking any laws by handing over the firearm? No, it's not the dealer's job to give a breathalyzer.I could not sell her some ammo. Or I could simply tell her I don't feel comfortable giving her her firearm while she is clearly wasted. Come back later.

Oh here's another gray area example:
Guy comes in, all thugged out and claims to be from a gang. Shows his MS13 tats and all.
Claims that he needs the firearm to protect himself on the streets.
Sale or no sale?

Say you go with the sale, he comes back passing DROS after 10 days. You do the safety test and he passes with flying colors, brings his gun lock and everything. Before you sign off on the paperwork he says, "Yeah, now I can pack on the street and protect my corner while I'm dealing dope..."... now what should happen?

I always wondered about these gray areas and how dealers would handle them.I am thinking the odds of this one are pretty slim. I doubt dope dealers brag about selling dope to gun dealers. Even so, I would still deliver the gun for two reasons. #1, dope dealers shooting other dope dealers or customers doesn't bother me much. Don't do drugs. #2, I have the guys name, address, and DL #. I think the local police just might get an anonymous tip.

I have sold guns to a drug dealer. It was odd that a younger kid was buying all sorts of goodies with cash, but again, I didn't ask any questions, he didn't give any answers, and eventually he got busted and lost all of his guns anyway. Hindsight is always 20/20 so only after the fact did it make sense, but at the time, you assume everyone is a law abiding citizen. I don't sweat what people are doing with their guns much. It is their life and they are adults.

If a tatted up vato can pass the background check, who am I to judge him? His money is green just like a white guy in a suit. Both are just as capable of committing crimes. Let the justice system deal with them if they do.

Red Dog
01-03-2010, 6:46 AM
If you won't sell it to her, she will find someone who will. At least you can make sure you talk safty to her and make sure she gets the right firearm.

TERRYGER
01-10-2010, 5:17 PM
despite someone claiming to recognize paranoia in another it doesn't alter the fact that she may legitimately feel or have been threatened. it is irrelevant that you or her son may feel differently.

if you are truly a firearms dealer, your businerss is to sell firearms. what do you think they are used for?

i will never patronize a dealer of any product that consideres it his job to decide whether i need his product or not. :rolleyes:

myob and you'll be too busy to mind mine!;)