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bodger
12-30-2009, 11:32 AM
I went to an indoor range yesterday. It was 15 minutes before opening time, so there were a few people out front waiting for the range to open.

Out of the 7 or 8 people in line, I noticed some who did not have locks on the containers in which they were obviously carrying firearms.
One was a factory plastic Glock case. The other, incredibly, was a plastic grocery bag through which I could clearly see the outline of a semi-auto pistol and two magazines.

There were a couple of people with range bags that clearly had no lock, don't know if the guns were in a separate container inside that was locked.

Seems like the local LEOs could stake out a range like that and it would be easy pickin's. I'd hate to see honest gunnies get nailed like that. If the range bag is unlocked with a gun inside, even unloaded, this is concealed carry isn 't it?

ETA: We were waiting on a sidewalk in front of the building, not on the property on which the range building sits.

tyrist
12-30-2009, 11:49 AM
The people could have had a CCW or have been Off duty Law Enforcement. There is no way to know if they were breaking the law or not without further investigation.

CitaDeL
12-30-2009, 11:53 AM
Now would you really drop a dime on a Second Amendment Brother for something like possession or improper transportation?

bodger
12-30-2009, 12:01 PM
Now would you really drop a dime on a Second Amendment Brother for something like possession or improper transportation?

The people could have had a CCW or have been Off duty Law Enforcement. There is no way to know if they were breaking the law or not without further investigation.


Possible that they could have all had CCW's. Don't know about the plastic grocery bag guy though. Odd manner in which to CCW.

And no, I would not drop a dime or anything like that. I'd be more inclined to try to let them know that their method of transport could get them into trouble. My concern was that these people might not know what the law is and could end up being an easy target for LEOs in the area. Having read the recent thread abut the Burro Canyon pull-over.

I was tempted to ask these people about the manner in which they were carrying and transporting, but I didn't.

bigcalidave
12-30-2009, 12:23 PM
Maybe it's time for some range education? Have the range tell their customers that they are concerned about methods of travel and pass out a flyer detailing the legal ways to carry a handgun to the range?

bodger
12-30-2009, 12:32 PM
Maybe it's time for some range education? Have the range tell their customers that they are concerned about methods of travel and pass out a flyer detailing the legal ways to carry a handgun to the range?


I might mention it to the guys behind the counter next time I go. Maybe suggest a flyer that could be distributed.

What I saw also makes me wonder if these people had the guns locked in their trunk during the drive to the range.

I mean, damn, a Ralph's plastic grocery bag with a handgun and two magazines?
Walking down the sidewalk with that? I don't know if that fellow had a CCW, but he did ask me if the range could re-qualify him for his security guard gun card.
And this was in LA, not exactly the CCW capital of the state. :(

Ron-Solo
12-30-2009, 9:30 PM
While it may technically be a violation, that's not the type or manner of CCW that most cops are really concerned with. I wouldn't pop someone for it unless they became a major jerk and were begging to go to jail.

It's the old "Spirit of the law vs. Letter of the Law"

Anyway, I don't recommend it as a means of carry.

Have a safe New Year

Ron

Vectrexer
12-30-2009, 9:33 PM
aren"t they all on private property?????????

ironhiide
12-30-2009, 9:40 PM
aren"t they all on private property?????????

His edit states they were on the sidewalk, so... nope.

wildhawker
12-30-2009, 9:51 PM
Maybe it's time for some range education? Have the range tell their customers that they are concerned about methods of travel and pass out a flyer detailing the legal ways to carry a handgun to the range?

This is actually in progress and should be available soon. We also have some gun case "luggage tags" with basic gun transport rules and spaces to write in name/contact "in case of" which will be available after the new year for a *very* modest amount. I'll just say for now that these are really a cool design by one of our own and content created/steered by the Calguns volunteer core.

The Director
12-30-2009, 9:59 PM
Looking back on this, I can I have done this many, many times. I'm not justifying it, mind you.

The range I go to when I am not BLM shooting has two places to park - one - behind the building, and two, on the street in front of the building. I'd say that if you park in the rear you have to walk about a 100-150 feet to the front door. On the street, about half.

I have my pistols in my range bag which is unlocked. it never, ever dawned on me I was breaking the law.....the area doesn't help the illusion either....it is in an industrial park so no schools for miles.

All I can say is that if the local law enforcement wants to pop me for that........sheesh......what has this country come to!

Nevertheless I will use a lock from now on.......!!!!!

cmth
12-30-2009, 11:22 PM
When I bought my Glock, I carried it out to the car in the unlockable plastic box that it comes in, and a uniformed LEO passed me going in. I said good morning, and he returned the same. I put the box in my trunk, locked the trunk, and drove home. I know he saw me with the pistol case, but he didn't seem to care one bit. Now I transport it in a locked Pelican case. Of course there are those 3-5 seconds between when I remove the padlock and unlatch the case that I am technically breaking the law, but I would probably win the lottery in every state before I was prosecuted for it. I see guys taking their unlocked range bags (chock full of pistols) from their trunks at the range, and nobody ever gets popped for it. Unless the guys walked ten blocks from their houses with the unlocked cases, it's really a non-issue.

hoffmang
12-30-2009, 11:33 PM
I haven't looked closely but I'll point it out for someone to go peek. I think there is an exception to the concealment prohibition for a trip to or from the range as long as the firearm is unloaded...

-Gene

SanSacto
12-30-2009, 11:49 PM
I haven't looked closely but I'll point it out for someone to go peek. I think there is an exception to the concealment prohibition for a trip to or from the range as long as the firearm is unloaded...

-Gene

I remember reading about that exception in How To Own A Gun And Stay Out Of Jail. I gave away the book to a noob friend so I can't look it back up.

bodger
12-31-2009, 5:39 AM
I have that book, I'll look it up and post what I find. I've done this very thing myself several times at this same range before I was a CalGuns member and had a better grasp of all of the gun laws.

Theseus' case, albeit a different situation, and the way the DA and judge twisted things up for him, and a recent thread about the appearance that some LASD deps might be staking out Burro Canyon shooters has made me hyper aware of anything that could result in an arrest.

This range I'm talking about cannot be accessed by staying on private property. You either park on the street and use the sidewalk to get to the front door, or park in the rear lot, and walk down the driveway to the sidewalk, and into the building.


I remember reading about that exception in How To Own A Gun And Stay Out Of Jail. I gave away the book to a noob friend so I can't look it back up.

GrizzlyGuy
12-31-2009, 7:32 AM
I haven't looked closely but I'll point it out for someone to go peek. I think there is an exception to the concealment prohibition for a trip to or from the range as long as the firearm is unloaded...

Yes, it is this one in 12026.2(a) (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.2.html)

9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a
regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing
shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.

However, it says this down in (b), so it still needs to be in a locked container during transportation using that exception:

(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.

A $2 padlock on the bags would prevent much possible (though low probability) drama.

nick
12-31-2009, 9:24 AM
I have that book, I'll look it up and post what I find. I've done this very thing myself several times at this same range before I was a CalGuns member and had a better grasp of all of the gun laws.

Theseus' case, albeit a different situation, and the way the DA and judge twisted things up for him, and a recent thread about the appearance that some LASD deps might be staking out Burro Canyon shooters has made me hyper aware of anything that could result in an arrest.

This range I'm talking about cannot be accessed by staying on private property. You either park on the street and use the sidewalk to get to the front door, or park in the rear lot, and walk down the driveway to the sidewalk, and into the building.

Firing-Line in Burbank?

Nom de Guerre
12-31-2009, 10:26 AM
Firing-Line in Burbank?

That's the range that came to my mind as well from the description.

bodger
12-31-2009, 11:54 AM
Firing-Line in Burbank?


That's the one. Firing Line in Burbank

Looks like Grizzly posted up 12026.2(a) and Gene has confirmed that it probably would be an exception.

I've often wondered about this same situation when I pick up guns at Retting's in Culver City. Even if you park in their lot, you have to traverse public sidewalk to enter the store.

I always bring my range bag and lock it when I leave and it goes directly into the trunk anyway, or the front cab of my pickup. Unloaded and locked container.

From the looks of this, it isn't much to worry about.But these days, I want to be squeaky clean when I'm transporting guns. Just like gun safety, you can't be too careful when it comes to the law.

To quote George Kennedy's character in Cool Hand Luke:

When it come to da law...nuthin' is understood!"

Decoligny
12-31-2009, 2:31 PM
That's the one. Firing Line in Burbank

Looks like Grizzly posted up 12026.2(a) and Gene has confirmed that it probably would be an exception.

I've often wondered about this same situation when I pick up guns at Retting's in Culver City. Even if you park in their lot, you have to traverse public sidewalk to enter the store.

I always bring my range bag and lock it when I leave and it goes directly into the trunk anyway, or the front cab of my pickup. Unloaded and locked container.

From the looks of this, it isn't much to worry about.But these days, I want to be squeaky clean when I'm transporting guns. Just like gun safety, you can't be too careful when it comes to the law.

To quote George Kennedy's character in Cool Hand Luke:

When it come to da law...nuthin' is understood!"

Read a little further down in Grizzly's post. It clearly states in 12026.2 (b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision 12026.2 (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

pullnshoot25
12-31-2009, 2:48 PM
I like where this thread is going. You will find the answer in H2OAGASOOJ, I have seen it myself.

GrizzlyGuy
12-31-2009, 3:41 PM
I like where this thread is going. You will find the answer in H2OAGASOOJ, I have seen it myself.

H2OAGASOOJ :confused:

Water (H2O) And Guns Are So Obviously Justified? :confused:

You kids and your danged secret acronyms. This one seems a little harder than TNA... :p

hollabillz
12-31-2009, 3:57 PM
H2OAGASOOJ :confused:

Water (H2O) And Guns Are So Obviously Justified? :confused:

You kids and your danged secret acronyms. This one seems a little harder than TNA... :p

How 2 own a gun and stay out of jail

It seems there's an exemption to needing to lock your unloaded firearms if you're a member of a shooting club...

See PC 12027(a)(3)(f) (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12027.html)

According to H2OAGASOOJ, it's the same as the Target Range exemption, but you aren't required to follow the 2 rules for transporting the gun.

pullnshoot25
12-31-2009, 5:03 PM
How 2 own a gun and stay out of jail

It seems there's an exemption to needing to lock your unloaded firearms if you're a member of a shooting club...

See PC 12027(a)(3)(f) (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12027.html)

According to H2OAGASOOJ, it's the same as the Target Range exemption, but you aren't required to follow the 2 rules for transporting the gun.

YES! I started a new acronym!

bodger
12-31-2009, 5:57 PM
Read a little further down in Grizzly's post. It clearly states in 12026.2 (b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision 12026.2 (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.


I see it now. So if I'm understanding this, regardless of where you are going to or coming from, if you're not on private property (and after Theseus' case, I guess now that is whatever a judge and DA decide it is) you had better have your handguns unloaded and in a locked container.

Ron-Solo is LEO, and stated in a post in this thread that he probably wouldn't make an issue of it if he encountered these people waiting on a sidewalk for the range to open.

I don't want to bet my right to own a gun that all LEO are that reasonable and sensible.

pullnshoot25
12-31-2009, 5:59 PM
I see it now. So if I'm understanding this, regardless of where you are going to or coming from, if you're not on private property (and after Theseus' case, I guess now that is whatever a judge and DA decide it is) you had better have your handguns unloaded and in a locked container.

Ron-Solo is LEO, and stated in a post in this thread that he probably wouldn't make an issue of it if he encountered these people waiting on a sidewalk for the range to open.

I don't want to bet my right to own a gun that all LEO are that reasonable and sensible.

Your wisdom is, shall we say, impeccable?

bodger
12-31-2009, 6:04 PM
Your wisdom is, shall we say, impeccable?


LOL...and my paranoia of getting butt-stabbed for owning a gun in CA is immaculate. :D

pullnshoot25
12-31-2009, 6:30 PM
LOL...and my paranoia of getting butt-stabbed for owning a gun in CA is immaculate. :D

I hear ya. I even wear my bulletproof vest when I OC sometimes too.