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View Full Version : Civilian Upper on Military M4 in CA


xLusi0n
12-29-2009, 6:27 PM
So, if you're unit is at the range and your commander doesn't care...could you put a civilian, privately owned, 10.5" upper that you use for your AR-Pistol onto a military owned M4 lower without violating CA state laws?

A better question would be if it was a military owned M16 to begin with (not SBR) and you put a 10.5" upper on it...did you violate NFA laws? I'm guessing the military is somehow exempt from all that as long as it's a military owned weapon and you're acting within official capacity...

Gh0sT
12-29-2009, 6:45 PM
Assuming that you were in the state of California, the marriage of a 10.5' upper towards a lower with a collapasable stock would make that rifle an assault weapon, thus a violation of the state law.

If out of the military base context, if you owned an AR Pistol and attached the upper towards your other AR lowers then still it would violate the SA law.

xLusi0n
12-29-2009, 6:48 PM
OK, I think I answered 1 of my questions (the bottom one). Since the M4/M16 is select fire, it doesn't have SBR or non-SBR status.

CHS
12-29-2009, 6:48 PM
Uhhhh.... Are you serious?

The lower is the gun, not the upper.

chris
12-29-2009, 6:48 PM
if i remember correctly. your commander can authorize it. but the Army has really cracked down on modifications to weapons like this. something like a 10.5" barrel is pretty obvious. 14.5 is not. but i would not do it. you can be in posession of a SBR and constructive posession of a SBR on the FED side.

CHS
12-29-2009, 6:49 PM
Assuming that you were in the state of California, the marriage of a 10.5' upper towards a lower with a collapasable stock would make that rifle an assault weapon, thus a violation of the state law.

If out of the military base context, if you owned an AR Pistol and attached the upper towards your other AR lowers then still it would violate the SA law.

SA law?

The marriage of a 10.5" upper on ANY lower with a stock would be a federal NFA violation. The last thing you would worry about is the AW laws.

Table Rock Arms
12-29-2009, 6:50 PM
If your unit is at the range, and your commander doesn't care, then who is going to stop you? I doubt LE is going to roll up on a Military unit and check there guns.

xLusi0n
12-29-2009, 6:53 PM
As I posted above, I think the fact that the military owned M16 is a select fire weapon, putting a short barrel on it doesn't violate any NFA law.

I'm sure CA laws have exemptions for military owned (not private) weapons.

CHS
12-29-2009, 6:55 PM
As I posted above, I think the fact that the military owned M16 is a select fire weapon, putting a short barrel on it doesn't violate any NFA law.


It doesn't matter what kind of weapon it is, if it's military owned and controlled, its configuration is completely and entirely exempt from all federal and state gun laws.

If you have permission, you can do whatever you want with it.

Some of the responses in this thread are funny.

striker3
12-29-2009, 7:00 PM
I know that in the USMC, your command would have to issue formal waivers for something like that. Your commander cannot just tell you it is ok. I bet it is the same in the other branches. Not many officers that I know would risk the chance of a personal upper malfunctioning and causing damage to the receiver or injury to personnel.

CHS
12-29-2009, 7:05 PM
I know that in the USMC, your command would have to issue formal waivers for something like that. Your commander cannot just tell you it is ok. I bet it is the same in the other branches. Not many officers that I know would risk the chance of a personal upper malfunctioning and causing damage to the receiver or injury to personnel.

But this is policy/procedure, and not actual law.

The OP is asking about LEGAL issues. There are none.

striker3
12-29-2009, 7:09 PM
But this is policy/procedure, and not actual law.

The OP is asking about LEGAL issues. There are none.

Policy and procedure that is governed by the UCMJ and punishable by Non-Judicial(loss of rank/pay/restriction) as well as Judicial(Court Martial=Legal) punishments.

CHS
12-29-2009, 7:27 PM
Policy and procedure that is governed by the UCMJ and punishable by Non-Judicial(loss of rank/pay/restriction) as well as Judicial(Court Martial=Legal) punishments.

Which are legal issues that still have absolutely nothing to do with the actual configuration of the weapons in question.

striker3
12-29-2009, 7:41 PM
Forgive me for pointing out to him that just because it may be legal in the state of California, it will not be legal in the military without the proper procedures. Want another fun fact that could possibly keep him out of trouble? All modifications made to a military weapon must be made by a certified armorer and every weapon fired on a military range must have a current LTI/PFI conducted by a certified armorer.

I don't know if this guy is asking a rhetorical question or not, but if he is not, and is seriously considering trying what he asked about, it is really a lot harder process than he thinks it is.

ajaffe
12-29-2009, 8:01 PM
I honestly have the feeling he is not going to be doing anything aside from relieving stress with the happy switch with the upper, and then taking it off and going home with it after he is done. So all this written formal signed and blood oathed paperwork is not relative.
Correct me if I am wrong here.

striker3
12-29-2009, 8:28 PM
I honestly have the feeling he is not going to be doing anything aside from relieving stress with the happy switch with the upper, and then taking it off and going home with it after he is done. So all this written formal signed and blood oathed paperwork is not relative.
Correct me if I am wrong here.

It is about liability. If his unit commander tells him he can do it without following the proper procedures, and that weapon has a catastrophic malfunction, the commander is done. If he does it without the commanders approval and the same happens, he is done. If the wrong person in the chain of command finds out about it, even if nothing goes wrong, they could both be done.

Once again, just because it may be California/Fed legal to do what he is asking, does not mean it is UCMJ legal. The military plays by their own set of rules.

JaMail
12-29-2009, 8:34 PM
but damn, it would be fun to do, a 10.5 inch barrel on 3 shot or full rock and roll.

fun is fun is fun.

adamsreeftank
12-30-2009, 12:55 PM
Don't ask - Don't tell ...


:D


Seriously, don't do it.

CHS
12-30-2009, 1:51 PM
So, if you're unit is at the range and your commander doesn't care...could you put a civilian, privately owned, 10.5" upper that you use for your AR-Pistol onto a military owned M4 lower without violating CA state laws?

Just remember, unless you have an auto bolt carrier, when you put your upper on the M16/M4, it WONT go full-auto when the happy switch is moved to "rock and roll".

xr650r
12-30-2009, 3:42 PM
Just be sure to get a note from your mom before you put it on there.

14.5"....10.5"??? Tie a pink bow on it....

it's a military weapon.

xLusi0n
12-30-2009, 3:54 PM
It was a rhetorical question. I was just thinking about it. I'm not even in the U.S. right now. Thanks for the inputs.

Army
12-30-2009, 10:03 PM
You mean like..........this?
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/Messkit/OIF-22004-2005012.jpg

:D

This was 2004, and regs were a little more lenient then. You cannot do this currently, stateside or combat zone, regardless of what your commander agrees to.

Oh, BTW, an ARMORER, cannot perform any weapons alterations. Armorers are supply action. A SMALL ARMS REPAIRMAN, 45-B, has the training and authority.

run8
12-30-2009, 10:08 PM
That cracked me up dude, "happy switch", LOL.

Just remember, unless you have an auto bolt carrier, when you put your upper on the M16/M4, it WONT go full-auto when the happy switch is moved to "rock and roll".

NiteQwill
12-30-2009, 11:04 PM
If command says okay (and barring the obvious unauthorized modification to the mil-weapon). Who's to stop you? No one.

Slap it on. Have fun.

chris
12-30-2009, 11:10 PM
You mean like..........this?
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/Messkit/OIF-22004-2005012.jpg

:D

This was 2004, and regs were a little more lenient then. You cannot do this currently, stateside or combat zone, regardless of what your commander agrees to.

Oh, BTW, an ARMORER, cannot perform any weapons alterations. Armorers are supply action. A SMALL ARMS REPAIRMAN, 45-B, has the training and authority.

yep a bunch of us did this in 05 06 and now no way can it be done anymore. the only modification you can do now is rails.

SteveH
12-31-2009, 11:45 AM
Some of the responses in this thread are funny.

No kidding! "OMG don't put a 10.5" brl on your 14.5" M4 or you are creating an SBR" :rolleyes:

Seriously, did everyone forget that a USGI M4 has a 14.5" Brl and would already be an SBR if the military had to worry about such things.

6172crew
12-31-2009, 1:30 PM
I can put any upper I want on my FA receiver, its a Machine Gun and as long as the upper is attached to the lower the SBR laws dont apply.

I dont see any reason you couldnt shoot your upper on a .mil firearm.

CHS
12-31-2009, 1:41 PM
Seriously, did everyone forget that a USGI M4 has a 14.5" Brl and would already be an SBR if the military had to worry about such things.

Nope. A USGI M4 is not an SBR, it's a machinegun. Machinegun status trumps all, even DD status.