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benelli shooter
12-28-2009, 6:09 PM
I have a small bag that I can lock my Glock for LUCC. Does the loaded magazine need to also be in the locked portion of the bag to remain legal? Or, can the loaded mag be in a portion of the bag that is not locked?

Essentially, does a loaded mag need to be in a locked container just like the gun?

zhyla
12-28-2009, 6:21 PM
Can you explain what you mean by LUCC?

Handgun transport rules is unloaded (no rounds in chamber or inserted mag) and in a locked container (trunk counts).

Quiet
12-28-2009, 6:33 PM
Can you explain what you mean by LUCC?

LUCC = Locked Unloaded Concealed Carry
Carrying an unloaded handgun in a locked container on your person.

Essentially, does a loaded mag need to be in a locked container just like the gun?

No.

benelli shooter
12-28-2009, 9:16 PM
Do the guys that carry UOC conceal the magazine?

Quiet
12-28-2009, 9:29 PM
Do the guys that carry UOC conceal the magazine?

No.

It is recommend that when you UOC, you also do no conceal carry the ammo.

Contact pullnshoot25 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/member.php?u=10554) for more info about UOC.

benelli shooter
12-28-2009, 9:44 PM
That is what I thought. Is the reason the UOC guys don't conceal the magazine because a magazine is part of the gun?

Then, it would logically follow that the only way I could conceal the magazine legally in LUCC is to have the magazine also in a locked portion of the case / fannypack / bag.

I wouldn't be able to have my magazine in a portion of the case that is unlocked.

Does that make sense?

Rusty_Rebar
12-28-2009, 9:47 PM
The magazine does not need to be locked in a separate container.

See penal code 12026.1, which basically is an exemption to the concealed carry law. As the firearm is in a locked container, it is concealed.

However, it is not clear that walking around LUCC is in fact legal. Look at the law, it says if you are carrying it to or from a vehicle, nothing about just walking around.

If you look at 12027, there are some other exemptions, but they are basically, going to the range, gun store, stuff like that.

benelli shooter
12-28-2009, 9:53 PM
I know the magazine does not need to be in a separate container.

I want to know if it is legal to have the gun in a locked container and the loaded magazine in a part of the same container, pocket, ect.. that is NOT locked.

Will having the loaded magazine NOT locked (concealed) be illegal?

Rusty_Rebar
12-28-2009, 10:23 PM
There is some case law on this, (People vs. Hale 1974)

Paraphrasing, the magazine can be considered an integral part of the firearm, and you can be arrested for concealed carry of a magazine.

How probable is it? I don't know, that is why the UOC guys always have the magazine unconcealed.

Now this seems to apply to a visible weapon, but probably not something you want to test out.

Loose ammo, speed-loaders, moon-clips etc, are not an integral part of the firearm, and you can have those type of item concealed.

If you are going to carry LUCC, you are probably best advised to keep the magazine locked in the case with the firearm.

xxdabroxx
12-28-2009, 10:42 PM
i wouldn't want it visible for concealment purposes, no sense in bringing unwanted attention to yourself.

The loaded magazine alone is not a threat so long as the pistol that fires from the magazine is locked no?

hoffmang
12-29-2009, 12:12 AM
There is some old strange case law that makes it a bad idea to conceal a magazine when a handgun is otherwise in plain sight but that may be limited to times when it's in a car.

If the handgun is locked and unloaded it can not be considered concealed. Then you do not have to worry about the concealed or unconcealed nature of a magazine.

Basic answer to OP's question: The magazine with rounds in it does not have to be in the locked container to keep the firearm, transportation, and ammunition legal.

There is no such thing as a loaded magazine. There are magazines with rounds in them. If a magazine with rounds in it, is in the magazine well of a firearm, that constitutes a loaded firearm.

-Gene

cmth
12-29-2009, 8:01 AM
LUCC is a potential legal minefield. It may not be legal to carry an unloaded firearm in a locked container anywhere you wish. This is largely untested in the courts. I cannot condone anyone breaking the law, as gray as the law may be. As long as the firearm remains locked up and nobody sees it, and a police officer does not have a warrant or RAS to search the bag, then nobody will discover it. But should you have to use the firearm to protect yourself, there could be problems. Some have decided that is a risk they are willing to take. Either way you had better have some cash set aside for a legal defense in the event that your firearm is discovered (lawfully or unlawfully) and especially if you use deadly force in self defense.

paul0660
12-29-2009, 8:17 AM
it says if you are carrying it to or from a vehicle, nothing about just walking around.

Bingo. 12026.1 says citizens can drive around with locked unloaded handguns without a particular destination. 12026.2 lists particular places locked unloaded handguns can be transported to, not necessarily by car, by an individual. A lot of these seem to be written so that one can get from the car to the gun show, store, range, etc.

So, LUCC in terms of walking around with an unloaded gun in a fanny pack without a particular allowed destination is not provided for in the statute. I think cmth gave a very thoughtful answer. LUCC, legal or not, has slightly weightier considerations than legal CCW, but when push comes to shove judges by 12 carried by six is rule #1.

xxdabroxx
12-29-2009, 8:57 AM
LUCC is a potential legal minefield. It may not be legal to carry an unloaded firearm in a locked container anywhere you wish. This is largely untested in the courts. I cannot condone anyone breaking the law, as gray as the law may be. As long as the firearm remains locked up and nobody sees it, and a police officer does not have a warrant or RAS to search the bag, then nobody will discover it. But should you have to use the firearm to protect yourself, there could be problems. Some have decided that is a risk they are willing to take. Either way you had better have some cash set aside for a legal defense in the event that your firearm is discovered (lawfully or unlawfully) and especially if you use deadly force in self defense.

So do you never remove your guns from your safe?

If while you were out with your guns and had the opportunity to defend yourself from great bodily harm or injury you would not for fear of a lawsuit?

LUCC is basically legally transporting your concealable firearm wherever you go that is not a restricted place like a government building or on school grounds.

paul0660
12-29-2009, 9:06 AM
LUCC is basically legally transporting your concealable firearm wherever you go

which can be done according to 12026.1, in or going to a vehicle, or 12026.2, on foot or whatever, but only to the places listed.

I think LUCC is a great idea if you can't get a CCW. I don't think it is legal however.

xxdabroxx
12-29-2009, 9:25 AM
I will have to read 12026 again.

12026.2
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this
chapter.


there are a lot of to and froms that are not covered, what about shooting at legal locations that are not a licensed range, what about to and from hunting, to and from fishing, etc. What about to and from your friends house? Is it against the law to transport your pistol to your friends house?

I am sure this has all been hashed out before so i should prob. go find the old threads now.

hoffmang
12-29-2009, 9:48 AM
LUCC is a potential legal minefield. It may not be legal to carry an unloaded firearm in a locked container anywhere you wish. This is largely untested in the courts.

*sigh* LUCC is good enough for most gun lawyers in California who can't get CCWs to use. A unloaded handgun in a locked container isn't going to get you in trouble, especially since it is by definition concealed. Think about the fact that actually CCWing a loaded handgun registered to you is a minor misdemeanor. The reason it's not court tested is because it is simply legal and therefor people don't tend to be charged with anything.

I'm pretty confident that CGF will defend any attempted LUCC prosecution where the rest of the facts are ok (read, no drug dealers, lacerny attempts, vandalism, etc.) In point of fact, we already have defended an LUCC case as I think about it. The charge was concealed carry but the handguns were unloaded in locked containers that were broken open by law enforcement. Loved those facts. All charges dropped was the answer on that case.

-Gene

paul0660
12-29-2009, 9:51 AM
Gene I know you hear this all the time, but you are............THE MAN.

xxdabroxx
12-29-2009, 10:02 AM
still trying to pick out the perfect pack, i have been looking at a bunch of maxpedition stuff.

paul0660
12-29-2009, 10:08 AM
These are still on sale:

http://www.tommysgunpack.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TGP-001-FREE

tba02
12-29-2009, 10:42 AM
still trying to pick out the perfect pack, i have been looking at a bunch of maxpedition stuff.

Just one of the bags I like,
http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Multi-functional-Tactical-Messenger-Black/dp/B002BJBIRW/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=IZVH1PB7YI9AC&colid=YZVSC8W58QP9

Glock22Fan
12-29-2009, 6:33 PM
These are still on sale:

http://www.tommysgunpack.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TGP-001-FREE

Don't you think that that screams "GUN!"

It'll look even stranger with a padlock visible on the front.

Try the Dillon's Plan B (http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/23863/catid/14/Dillon__039_s___039_Plan_B__039__Day_Planner).

Oshiat
12-29-2009, 8:24 PM
Just one of the bags I like,
http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Multi-functional-Tactical-Messenger-Black/dp/B002BJBIRW/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=IZVH1PB7YI9AC&colid=YZVSC8W58QP9

That bag looks like a direct rip-off of the Maxpedition Jumbo Versipack. Lapolice gear normall has good prices on them and the quality is excellent.

I am trying to find the best lockable gun sleeve to use in mine. Was considering changing the zipper to a lockable one, but that hasn't worked out yet.