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nicki
12-28-2009, 10:19 AM
The Mexican Drug War is in the News and of course some of our elected leaders want us to surrender our semi auto EBR's because the Mexican Drug Cartels are using full auto RBR's(Real Black Rifles).

The Mexican Drug Cartels have a 38 billion dollar industry to protect, so I could see them spending 1 to 3 billion for bribes, guns and other miscellanous things to protect their business.

Personally if I was running the Cartel, I would replace the Mexican government with my people by whatever means necessary.

The Cartels have shown that they have no qualms about what they will do.

So, my poll questions to you the readers is this.

Who will win the Mexican Drug War?

Will it be the Mexican Government?
Will it be the Cartels?
Will it just go on forever?


After you have done the poll question, please consider the following questions?

Will the Mexican Drug War stay in Mexico?

Is the Mexican Drug War a threat to our security?

Is the Mexican Drug War a threat to you and your families personal safety?


I feel these a legitimate questions for us to ask of all candidates running for public office and their answers on what to do will indicate how the value structure they operate on.

Will they promote a "Free State" or will they push for a "Police State".

Nicki

JDoe
12-28-2009, 12:58 PM
Who will win the Mexican Drug War?

The Cartels have already won haven't they? I see the on going violence as just routine maintenance for the Cartels. The cost of doing business. After all what part of the 38 billion dollars is not a victory for the Cartels?

After you have done the poll question, please consider the following questions?

Will the Mexican Drug War stay in Mexico?

It is already here. Anyone want to go hiking by themselves in prime Marijuana growing territory in California? I didn't think so.

Is the Mexican Drug War a threat to our security?

Yes. There is 38 billion American dollars headed to Mexico annually. No matter how you look at it the Mexican government can't not like that inflow of badly needed wealth. Notice how the Mexican government types never tell us to legalize pot and grow it ourselves as a way to kill the money supply to the Cartels? Instead the Mexican government does what any politician does that wants power and control and the money, they create a scapegoat. In this case the scapegoat is U.S. made firearms. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, no one in politics is concerned about the truth anyway, all that matters is that the Mexican government can point to the U.S. and say if it weren't for our 2A rights Mexico would be a paradise. Take away some of our 2A rights and you have reduced our security.

Another point, take Phoenix, it is number 2 in the world for kidnapping after Mexico city. Now it seems to be true that the only people kidnapped have been hanging out with the wrong crowd but police resources that could be used to enhance the security of law abiding citizens are being re-directed to deal with criminals some (many? most?) of which are involved directly in smuggling drugs into the U.S.

Another point and there are many, is that the talk of restricting American citizens 2A rights because of the Mexican Drug War results in pro-RKBA organizations wasting valuable resources to fight the FUD and protect our RKBAs. Reducing my firepower is a threat to my security. Reducing the firepower of law abiding citizens will just make it easier for criminals to do their jobs and decrease everyone's security.

Is the Mexican Drug War a threat to you and your families personal safety?

Since I don't rely upon the police or any other organization for personal security the answer is not so much but then again I live in a very low crime area. Sure there is a one in a gazillion chance that I could be walking down the street and be unlucky enough to be caught in the crossfire of a firefight between rival Mexican Drug Cartel types but it isn't likely to happen.

dawgcasa
12-28-2009, 1:25 PM
The only way you get rid of the drug cartels and all that comes with that is to do what was done to get rid of the prohibition era of 1919-1933. Legalize, regulate the prodution and distribution, tax, and criminalize the public 'intoxication' effects like we do public drunkeness, driving while under the influence, underage drinking, and selling to a minor. Use the tax receipts to fund drug rehabilitation & detoxification. Allow legal yet regulated transportation via direct routes that will then bypass the overland smuggling routes through Central America and Mexico as they will no longer be cost effective.

The "war on drugs" has had the same effect in creating the drug dealers, gangs, violence, cartel distribution, etc., that the prohibition era had on creating gangsters like Al Capone back in the 1920s. All it does is create mega-wealth in the hands of violent criminals that have a much greater threat to society at large than if a relatively small proportion of the population chooses to legally get high in the privacy of their own home. All the Billions that has spent on the war on illegal drugs hasn't made any dent in the addiction rates or availability, but it has filled our prisons to overflowing with people caught on non-violent possession, filled our streets with highly motivated, highly violent criminals, and created a mega-wealthy 'society' of murderers bent on maintaining their lifestyle and power at any and all costs.

Crazed_SS
12-28-2009, 1:48 PM
The cartels are winning now and will continue to win since the demand for illegal drugs is not going to go down anytime in the near future.

fullrearview
12-28-2009, 2:21 PM
Its a smoke screen....Just like Democraps and Republicans. How can you call yourselfs moral enemies on TV but then sit down and have cocktails with each other every night?

blacksheep
12-28-2009, 2:34 PM
option who gives a shizzle was missing.;)

L84CABO
12-28-2009, 3:26 PM
The only way you get rid of the drug cartels and all that comes with that is to do what was done to get rid of the prohibition era of 1919-1933. Legalize, regulate the prodution and distribution, tax, and criminalize the public 'intoxication' effects like we do public drunkeness, driving while under the influence, underage drinking, and selling to a minor. Use the tax receipts to fund drug rehabilitation & detoxification. Allow legal yet regulated transportation via direct routes that will then bypass the overland smuggling routes through Central America and Mexico as they will no longer be cost effective.

The "war on drugs" has had the same effect in creating the drug dealers, gangs, violence, cartel distribution, etc., that the prohibition era had on creating gangsters like Al Capone back in the 1920s. All it does is create mega-wealth in the hands of violent criminals that have a much greater threat to society at large than if a relatively small proportion of the population chooses to legally get high in the privacy of their own home. All the Billions that has spent on the war on illegal drugs hasn't made any dent in the addiction rates or availability, but it has filled our prisons to overflowing with people caught on non-violent possession, filled our streets with highly motivated, highly violent criminals, and created a mega-wealthy 'society' of murderers bent on maintaining their lifestyle and power at any and all costs.

+1 Things like gambling, prostitution, alcohol and drugs have been around since the beginning of time. You will never eliminate them because PEOPLE DON'T WANT THEM ELIMINATED. The sooner we admit that, the sooner we can move on and come up with real ways to manage the problem. The money we save alone from no longer having to fight this lost war could do great things...not to mention the funds generated from taxing it.

I'm open to other ideas here but smater men than most of us here have tried to solve this problem without success. Maybe you could go zero tolerance. Meaning, if you're caught with any drugs at all regardless of quantity, you are executed. But that seems a bit extreme for my tastes.

Those are really the only two viable options that I see...aside from doing nothing and letting the insanity continue. If anyone has any better ideas, please share. I'm listening.

Peace

Meplat
12-28-2009, 3:28 PM
Your question assumes there is a differance between the cartells and the government.


The end will come when we stop making playing coyote and sheep dog a profitable indevor on both sides of the ball. And put one tenth of the resources into helping the adicted that we now put into interdiction.

HUTCH 7.62
12-28-2009, 3:30 PM
We should send our Illegals into Mexico to help fight the Mexican drug war

run8
12-28-2009, 3:46 PM
And what about the hundreds of incursions of Mexican military into the US, but thanks to NAFTA the US won't do anything about it, wouldn't want to upset out neighbors to the south.

tombinghamthegreat
12-28-2009, 8:23 PM
It is a never ending war. Since the US and other countries has a ban on drugs it has created a very powerful underground industry that even the US government is too weak to stop.

professorhard
12-28-2009, 8:26 PM
Seal the border with the health care reform money and deport all illegals

tankerman
12-28-2009, 8:28 PM
I think we should encourage civil war in Mexico. They need it.

cbn620
12-28-2009, 8:35 PM
Your question assumes there is a differance between the cartells and the government.


The end will come when we stop making playing coyote and sheep dog a profitable indevor on both sides of the ball. And put one tenth of the resources into helping the adicted that we now put into interdiction.

Amen to that. Drug war is a waste of time.

AJAX22
12-28-2009, 8:48 PM
Its all business.

people respond to incentives.

dwa
12-28-2009, 8:54 PM
the cartels don't want to overthrow the government, that would be a distraction from being cartels.

the current situation is what they want, inept incompetent corrupt to the core Mexican government who is too inefficient/corrupt/joke to do anything serious to stop them while they line their pockets.

Connor P Price
12-28-2009, 9:03 PM
There wont be an outright win on either side. The Mexican government doesn't have the power, and they're to corrupt. The cartels are probably powerful enough to take it all over if they want to, but the US wouldn't stand for it for a second, to close to home to allow.

Things will change, they'll find new outlets and new methods, neither side will win or lose. The problem will just evolve.

dchang0
12-28-2009, 9:11 PM
It'll be a symbiotic relationship between the cartels and the gov't. Check out the ending of Animal House, by Orwell, or for something more scientific, check out Dawkin's "The Selfish Gene" in which he mentions that competing memes often coexist because of the tension between them--i.e., that the Democrats would never completely wipe out the Republicans nor vice versa because each side needs the other to vilify while they both survive at the expense of the people.

M. Sage
12-28-2009, 9:14 PM
The cartels have already won. The "government" (which is no better than a cartel) there is simply in denial about the fact.

Colt-45
12-28-2009, 9:55 PM
Who will win the war on drugs?

Nobody, thanks to Human Rights and other groups that protect the innocent criminals:mad:

We must not forget that the incidents that have occurred here in The US are acts of violence among their own people involved in the drug trade.

It's ridiculous if this is already a war I don't see what the problem is in using their own Mexican troops for a full scale attack. Let's attack then leave and let them regroup, yea thatll work.:mad:

Uriah02
12-28-2009, 10:00 PM
One of the sad things in the middle of this are the people involved, I especially get that feeling between being in Iraq and now in a job which I support troops in Afghanistan. When you're there, you see the cost and destruction, when you're not it all seems so detached and unreal.

A good example applying to this story (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/12/22/mexico.cartel.retaliation/index.html), a man dies doing his duty and in return, his family is targeted...

Colt-45
12-28-2009, 10:03 PM
Bottom line is: Why can the war on drug's be won? Politics.

bigcalidave
12-28-2009, 10:04 PM
How much of their business is money from marijuana grown or imported here?

joelberg
12-28-2009, 11:06 PM
Until drugs are legalized the war will rage on in a stalemate for both sides.

fred40
12-29-2009, 1:00 AM
Drug money keeps Mexico's economy rolling. The fact is that drug dealers give money to the people and the crooked government steals from innocent poor people. So, who's really the bad guy?

Mulay El Raisuli
12-29-2009, 4:54 AM
Look - Mexico should be the last ones complaining. They got some nerve to tell us that the US has a drug problem.
Why are Mexicans allowing drugs to be pumped into the US? About time we start blaming Mexico for allowing the drugs in and not stopping it. Mexico is the cause of our drug problem, they (politicians and the crooks there) are getting rich off the US. The money and guns (the few guns that may have) that cross back into Mexico is only an after effect.


Actually, it isn't Mexico's problem, in that they aren't the cause of the problem. WE are. The blame is ENTIRELY on us. Yes, Mexico is taking advantage of the opportunity that we give them, but all we have to do to fix the problem is remove the opportunity. The comments about how the "Drug War" is just like Prohibition are right on the money. WE (not Mexico) can end this all tomorrow just by doing what we did in 1933; legalize the stuff.


The Raisuli

HUTCH 7.62
12-29-2009, 7:55 AM
Actually, it isn't Mexico's problem, in that they aren't the cause of the problem. WE are. The blame is ENTIRELY on us. Yes, Mexico is taking advantage of the opportunity that we give them, but all we have to do to fix the problem is remove the opportunity. The comments about how the "Drug War" is just like Prohibition are right on the money. WE (not Mexico) can end this all tomorrow just by doing what we did in 1933; legalize the stuff.


The Raisuli

Instead of legalization why don't we just not use drugs. even simpler.

stagman
12-29-2009, 8:15 AM
^^^^ What he said...

cdtx2001
12-29-2009, 8:24 AM
The government of Mexico is no better than the cartels they are attempting to fight. It's not our fault they let the cartels move drugs through their country.

I have no use for the stuff that's currently illegal, but that's me.

There will ALWAYS be someone that uses and will continue to do so. Prohibition does not, has not, and will not work, history has proven that one time and time again. Whether it was the alcohol in the 20s and 30s, prostitution, talking on cell phones while driving, speeding, or of course, drugs. People will always get their vise even if it's illegal.

Make drugs legal and tax them. Bust the illegal dealers for tax evasion. Illegal drugs are worth a lot because they are illegal. Rum runners were put out of business by the fact that no one wanted their 'shine anymore. Now they could buy it down the street. Why buy from a cartel if you can buy it legally from some one local?

AJAX22
12-29-2009, 8:38 AM
Instead of legalization why don't we just not use drugs. even simpler.

Because people like to feel good

drugs make people feel good

therefore people will take drugs.

Clearly even with the huge penalties and large negative consequences we have imposed people still want to do them.... so its not going to go away.

you have a choice, either you legalize it, or you pour money into the black market which will fund criminal enterprises which are even more destructive than the drugs themselves.

HUTCH 7.62
12-29-2009, 8:56 AM
Yeah but its considered ok to be addicted to drugs these day. For lack of better words we've become a drug culture. If it was not "cool" to be f'ed up on drugs and alcohol all the time, if it was socially unacceptable Drugs would not be popular and the demand would go down.

ocjackel
12-29-2009, 9:38 AM
Because people like to feel good

drugs make people feel good

therefore people will take drugs.

Clearly even with the huge penalties and large negative consequences we have imposed people still want to do them.... so its not going to go away.

you have a choice, either you legalize it, or you pour money into the black market which will fund criminal enterprises which are even more destructive than the drugs themselves.

Yes, to just say "don't take drugs" is to deny human nature.

Just like oil America is dependent upon foreign sources for the drugs Americans demand. Imagine if drugs were legalized and produced domestically. That would be the equivalent of "Walmarting" the cartels.

AJAX22
12-29-2009, 9:44 AM
Yeah but its considered ok to be addicted to drugs these day. For lack of better words we've become a drug culture. If it was not "cool" to be f'ed up on drugs and alcohol all the time, if it was socially unacceptable Drugs would not be popular and the demand would go down.

It is 'cool' because its taboo

If you lie to the people long enough (i.e. Marjuana is a gateway drug.... it supports terrorists etc..) they stop listening to you.

People did drugs before it was cool... before it was illegal... before it was 'socially unacceptable'

sherlock holms was a coke head.

Look, its all basic economics.

There IS a demand, a fairly inelastic demand...

prohibition simply increases the proffits which get diverted into black markets.

Meplat
12-29-2009, 10:55 AM
It is 'cool' because its taboo

If you lie to the people long enough (i.e. Marjuana is a gateway drug.... it supports terrorists etc..) they stop listening to you.

People did drugs before it was cool... before it was illegal... before it was 'socially unacceptable'

sherlock holms was a coke head.

Look, its all basic economics.

There IS a demand, a fairly inelastic demand...

prohibition simply increases the proffits which get diverted into black markets.

Illegality actually increases the demand. Most dealers do so to support their own habit. The drug business is like Amway, itís a pyramid. You have to recruit new users to support your addiction and then they have to recruit, and so on. If it were relatively cheep and legal all that recruiting would stop.

stagman
12-29-2009, 11:02 AM
Illegality actually increases the demand. Most dealers do so to support their own habit. The drug business is like Amway, itís a pyramid. You have to recruit new users to support your addiction and then they have to recruit, and so on. If it were relatively cheep and legal all that recruiting would stop.

So drug pushers are like those annoying pre-paid legal people that just knocked on my door yesterday?

Or the Quixtar people with their energy drinks? Come on...

You just compared Cocaine dealers to Mona-Vie!

ocjackel
12-29-2009, 11:39 AM
So drug pushers are like those annoying pre-paid legal people that just knocked on my door yesterday?

Or the Quixtar people with their energy drinks? Come on...

You just compared Cocaine dealers to Mona-Vie!

Except cocaine actually does what the sellers claim it will.

Legasat
12-29-2009, 12:00 PM
It just depends. I have no doubt that if the Mexican Gov't decided to end the drug wars, they could. But, they would have to convince the LEO's & Military it was in their best interests. I'm sure there is LOTS of corruption and payola going on at the local levels.

I voted stalemate because I don't see any leaders standing up to these drug lords. Until they ALL decide to do this, the drug trade will grow.

tombinghamthegreat
12-29-2009, 12:04 PM
Instead of legalization why don't we just not use drugs. even simpler.

How well has that been working? Simple choice people can either give their tens of billions of dollars to cartels and fund useless government agencies that are unable to stop drug trafficking or make it legal.

timdps
12-29-2009, 12:48 PM
For lack of better words we've become a drug culture.

And not just for illegal drugs. The big pharma companies are moving towards "everyone on drugs" for the rest of their lives. Dad was taking 15 prescription meds a day until he passed...

Tim

Denver
12-29-2009, 12:55 PM
I have the perfect solution:

1. Legalize all drugs.

2. Allow full 2a implementation, anyone (legal citizen) who wants to carry concealed or openly can.

3. Enforce illegal immigration laws.

Denver
12-29-2009, 1:03 PM
Yeah but its considered ok to be addicted to drugs these day. For lack of better words we've become a drug culture. If it was not "cool" to be f'ed up on drugs and alcohol all the time, if it was socially unacceptable Drugs would not be popular and the demand would go down.

Do you Drink, are you on anti-depressants, do you take cold medicine? Or do you or have you ever taken anything over the counter or by perscription to make you feel better?

Somehow it is socially acceptable to get drunk. And do you know how much "speed" or "opiates" are in our "legal" drugs from big pharma?

stagman
12-29-2009, 1:07 PM
I have the perfect solution:

1. Legalize all drugs.

2. Allow full 2a implementation, anyone (legal citizen) who wants to carry concealed or openly can.


Sooooo, doped up crackheads roaming the streets with dillusions of purple elephants attacking them with guns in their back pockets?

uh, no thanks.

Denver
12-29-2009, 1:14 PM
Sooooo, doped up crackheads roaming the streets with dillusions of purple elephants attacking them with guns in their back pockets?

uh, no thanks.

That is what is currently going on. Do you think this will get worse if we legalize drugs. You are very mistaken and buying the bullcrap they taught you in school. The crackhead will be armed anyway and I will tell you what; the gun will not be registered to him.

The process of black market crime is very simple. Crackhead bob get's ripped off but can't call the cops due to the substance that got stolen being illegal. So crackhead bob takes the law into his own hands and shoots the thief with a gun that he did not get from an FFL.

How many people do you see doing this over their stolen car? Not very many.

stagman
12-29-2009, 1:52 PM
Deleted

Denver
12-29-2009, 2:15 PM
I do not personally believe that making something legal will entice someone to do something when they otherwise would not when it comes to drugs. While this may not allways be the case. There is no perfect way to have a society.

The whole point here really is that drugs, just like guns in and of themselves do not create crime and violence. It is the user of the drug that may incite violence due to either the effect of the drug itself or the need to perpetuate the expensive habbit and associate with the black market. In the black market justice is served by violence, their are no courtrooms. This is why most seriouse drug dealers have guns. And if crackhead bob who may be non-violent chooses to carry a gun and cant pass a backround check then he'll get it from his crack dealer through the black market gun racket.

See the similarities with drug laws to gun laws. Drug laws create more drugs because of the natural laws of the market. The inflated prices due to prohibition create a situation where sending drugs to this country are very profitable to the cartels. The prices are high due to the high risk of being caught as well as the penalty. This is the very root of our gang problem is prohibition. Illegal drugs fund gangs and if we made all guns illegal imagine the black market gang problem we would have then. We would start to look like Sierra Leon out on the streets of Salinas.

My prediction based on the prohibition of the 30's adjusted for inflation is that if we made all drugs legal they would loose 80% to 90% of their value. Yea, you might have a few more users but you would not have a neighborhood full of crackheads by any means.

To see what I mean, go look at Holland. Other than the socialism there, not a bad place to live in my opinion.

stagman
12-29-2009, 2:18 PM
So instead of people conforming to the laws, we will just conform the laws to the people... Right? Sooo, where does it stop?

Denver
12-29-2009, 2:20 PM
The underlying theme to all of this is do we have a nanny state where the elites set laws "in everyone's best interest" or do we have a society based on individual choice.

"If man is not fit to govern himself, how can he be fit to govern someone else"

James Madison

stagman
12-29-2009, 2:32 PM
Well, I dont feel that I should have to stop at red lights anymore, and I want to drive 120 mph through downtown from now on...

What? Well traffic laws were made by the elites too! Right? Isnt that individual choice?

I think felons should have the right to a free 1911 and CCW upon release from prison. Those laws were made by elites! Right?

The flaw with your logic is that every man has the ability to govern himself, but while governing himself, only cares for himself, and not the well being, rights, or privelages of others. Do you disagree?

Denver
12-29-2009, 2:54 PM
No, you are regurgitating banter from the left. Have you read the Bill of Rights? It does not say Anarchy anywhere in it. A government for the people by the people. Not a government governing the people. There is a profound difference but to the liberal left it get's spun as anarchy.

To put it in simple terms. We have a government, it's purpose; to protect it's citizens from foreign invaders. It's other purpose, to uphold the Constitution. Other laws written from this Constitution come from the Government, State and Local level but no law can be in place that goes against this Document. So, good laws are laws that protect peoples rights from others infringing upon, like red lights and such. Yes, I am infringing on your right to have a safe trip home in your car by running a red light. This is also common sense, it might hurt to run a red light and we don't want to get hurt so this keeps people from doing it regardless of breaking the law. Drug's are the same way. We might destroy our lives by doing drugs and not many choose that route in life simply based on this fact alone.

So you see, our society is not held together properly by our bloated government, it is held together by individuals doing the right thing. Most people do the right thing. The criminals are outnumbered by good people when the good people can have their freedom. Encroach on their freedom and watch a good society fall apart at the seams.

Look into what happened in Argentina.

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/search/label/SHTF

Exposed
12-29-2009, 2:57 PM
A war on drugs is as futile as a war on terror.

Hopi
12-29-2009, 3:01 PM
Some folks in this thread need to reread their own sigline quotes...

Liberty1
12-29-2009, 3:05 PM
It will end when prohibition ends. Then they can find something else to fight over. But without a source of income they'll have to move into gambling and prostitution like the mob of the 1930's after alcohol prohibition ended.

Denver
12-29-2009, 3:05 PM
The flaw with your logic is that every man has the ability to govern himself, but while governing himself, only cares for himself, and not the well being, rights, or privelages of others. Do you disagree?

This is the common argument from not only the left but from the neocons as well. This assumes people are so stupid and cruel that we need a nanny to tell us how to do everything, a law for every aspect of our society. Buckle up for your own good now cuz your to stupid to do it on your own. If you trully feel this way than you are either this person, or on the side of the elites where you think you are some cut above the rest and should be in charge of herding the sheep.

stagman
12-29-2009, 3:23 PM
This is the common argument from not only the left but from the neocons as well. This assumes people are so stupid and cruel that we need a nanny to tell us how to do everything, a law for every aspect of our society. Buckle up for your own good now cuz your to stupid to do it on your own. If you trully feel this way than you are either this person, or on the side of the elites where you think you are some cut above the rest and should be in charge of herding the sheep.

No, I simply see it in our society. I get cut off on the freeway everyday because someone is in such a hurry that they feel it neccessary to make me almost wreck. Or the dude who slams the door in an old womans face, because he doesnt want to be inconveinanced and hold it for her. Have you been to a grocery store recently? OMG. Its human nature, me before you.

What I am simply trying to say, is that people almost always look out for number one first, and think of others needs and wants second or third or 137th.

This is the first time I have been called a lefty! Its kinda weird...:D

Ugh.... My head hurts, and my eyes are bleeding.

Denver
12-29-2009, 3:35 PM
I did not call you a lefty, nor do I think you are. Left and Right are just 2 sides of the same coin. The intentions of our founding fathers have been long forgotten in both circles.

Imagine your trip to the grocery store after our currency collapses from big government spending and easy government sponsored credit. And your road trip? You might not be going anywhere.

We are going down the same road as Argentina almost to the T. In that country you don't stop at red lights at night for fear of being carjacked. Ironic isn't it?

The more oppressed the people get, the ruder they will get. The 1950's Leave it to Beaver stuff does not exist anymore. People have lost 95% of the value of their dollar. People are loosing all of their rights at lightning speed and they feel powerless to stop it. Yea, it makes me a little rude sometimes too.

tombinghamthegreat
12-29-2009, 3:40 PM
Well, I dont feel that I should have to stop at red lights anymore, and I want to drive 120 mph through downtown from now on...


That is a slippery slope argument. That is like saying if you legalize CCW in Florida that the streets would run red with blood and it would lead to chaos, but has it? Your rational is much like the Brady campaign.

Sooooo, doped up crackheads roaming the streets with dillusions of purple elephants attacking them with guns in their back pockets?


That is the current state of things. Do you really think that regulation is preventing people from buying drugs? Do you really thing prohibition in the 1930s was effective? Is throwing away 10's of billions of dollars and a loss of liberty and life worth enforcing your moral agenda?

HUTCH 7.62
12-29-2009, 4:46 PM
[QUOTE=AJAX22;3561120]It is 'cool' because its taboo

If you lie to the people long enough (i.e. Marjuana is a gateway drug.... it supports terrorists etc..) they stop listening to you.QUOTE]

It does support Terrorists. IE Drug cartels who are Terrorizing the people of Mexico. So if you use you are are a Terrorist. end of story

Denver
12-29-2009, 5:12 PM
It does support Terrorists. IE Drug cartels who are Terrorizing the people of Mexico. So if you use you are are a Terrorist. end of story

So then people who use drugs support terrorism?

So then gun's support terrorism?

Your logic befuddles me. You are blaming the object again just like the left blames the gun (object). There really is a correlation.

I think the Constitution was written on Hemp paper, must be a terrorist document then. Or is it only if it is smoked?

:)

Meplat
12-29-2009, 5:33 PM
You just compared Cocaine dealers to Mona-Vie!

I shure did!:43:

Meplat
12-29-2009, 5:41 PM
So instead of people conforming to the laws, we will just conform the laws to the people... Right? Sooo, where does it stop?

Hopefully it doesn't.:D

Meplat
12-29-2009, 6:02 PM
If you blow lights at 120 mph you will be Darwined out of the gene pool. That will be good for the gene pool but you will probably take some more sensible people with you. That will not be good for the gene pool.

If you start doing violent robberies to support your habit, because the price of your drugs is hyper inflated by prohibition, you will also be Darwined out, and you will also probably take more sensible people with you. That will not be good for the gene pool.

If sensible people make it possible for you to get all the drugs you want until you overdose and die, you will be Darwined out of the gene pool with no collateral damage. Good riddance.

Don’t turn my world into a police state because you can’t control your self!
:p



Well, I dont feel that I should have to stop at red lights anymore, and I want to drive 120 mph through downtown from now on...

What? Well traffic laws were made by the elites too! Right? Isnt that individual choice?

I think felons should have the right to a free 1911 and CCW upon release from prison. Those laws were made by elites! Right?

The flaw with your logic is that every man has the ability to govern himself, but while governing himself, only cares for himself, and not the well being, rights, or privelages of others. Do you disagree?

Meplat
12-29-2009, 6:06 PM
Well said. +1

No, you are regurgitating banter from the left. Have you read the Bill of Rights? It does not say Anarchy anywhere in it. A government for the people by the people. Not a government governing the people. There is a profound difference but to the liberal left it get's spun as anarchy.

To put it in simple terms. We have a government, it's purpose; to protect it's citizens from foreign invaders. It's other purpose, to uphold the Constitution. Other laws written from this Constitution come from the Government, State and Local level but no law can be in place that goes against this Document. So, good laws are laws that protect peoples rights from others infringing upon, like red lights and such. Yes, I am infringing on your right to have a safe trip home in your car by running a red light. This is also common sense, it might hurt to run a red light and we don't want to get hurt so this keeps people from doing it regardless of breaking the law. Drug's are the same way. We might destroy our lives by doing drugs and not many choose that route in life simply based on this fact alone.

So you see, our society is not held together properly by our bloated government, it is held together by individuals doing the right thing. Most people do the right thing. The criminals are outnumbered by good people when the good people can have their freedom. Encroach on their freedom and watch a good society fall apart at the seams.

Look into what happened in Argentina.

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/search/label/SHTF

Meplat
12-29-2009, 6:14 PM
It will end when prohibition ends. Then they can find something else to fight over. But without a source of income they'll have to move into gambling and prostitution like the mob of the 1930's after alcohol prohibition ended.

Prostitution will be a lot harder to promote with the end of prohibition. And an end of prostitution prohibition will take the worst Abuses out of it. legalized gambling will ruin the Indians, maybe we should let that alone?!?:D

PatriotnMore
12-29-2009, 6:31 PM
Well said, I applaud your post. I wish more had your sense of our founding by our forefathers, so many have become a part of the decline in our freedoms by thinking we need to be governed to know right and wrong.

No, you are regurgitating banter from the left. Have you read the Bill of Rights? It does not say Anarchy anywhere in it. A government for the people by the people. Not a government governing the people. There is a profound difference but to the liberal left it get's spun as anarchy.

To put it in simple terms. We have a government, it's purpose; to protect it's citizens from foreign invaders. It's other purpose, to uphold the Constitution. Other laws written from this Constitution come from the Government, State and Local level but no law can be in place that goes against this Document. So, good laws are laws that protect peoples rights from others infringing upon, like red lights and such. Yes, I am infringing on your right to have a safe trip home in your car by running a red light. This is also common sense, it might hurt to run a red light and we don't want to get hurt so this keeps people from doing it regardless of breaking the law. Drug's are the same way. We might destroy our lives by doing drugs and not many choose that route in life simply based on this fact alone.

So you see, our society is not held together properly by our bloated government, it is held together by individuals doing the right thing. Most people do the right thing. The criminals are outnumbered by good people when the good people can have their freedom. Encroach on their freedom and watch a good society fall apart at the seams.

Look into what happened in Argentina.

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/search/label/SHTF

Hunt
12-29-2009, 6:42 PM
Your question assumes there is a differance between the cartells and the government.



touche' on either side of the border a thug is a thug

AJAX22
12-29-2009, 6:55 PM
Make markets legitimate and you'll eliminate 99.99999% of all negative effects created by 'black' markets.

The 'illegal' nature of the product (and the subsequent inability to use legitimate channels to solve grievances, disputes, contractual violations etc. )are what cause the crimes which we REALLY care about.

The problem is when you make something illegal, what you do is make any contract for the purchase/ownership/sale non binding through normal channels of tort law.... you can't take a middle man to court because he sold you a truck load of bakinsoda instead of good powder... so bad things happen.

Now, what you have instead is a secondary mechanism of enforcement which rises up to assert itself which operates on an alternate set of rules. This will ALWAYS happen, its what allowed imigrant gangs in the early part of US history to prey on their own populations, and it is why pesants went to local lords for protection... i.e. why the mafia can collect protection money etc.

Prostitution is a CLEAR example of how this basic economic principle works, (superfreakanomics is a great book)

All the bad aspects of prostitution come from the forcing of women outside the normal means of recourse.

She uses a pimp as a way to advertise/gain business and enforce payment contracts.... and is subjected to violence as a result of her inability to renegotiate contractual arrangements or to use normal legal resources to protect herself.

The most dangerous aspect of all of this is that once outside the law, you are OUTSIDE the law.... and you would be surprised how liberating that can be in terms of your opportunities to exploit vulnerabilities in the general populace, and at the same time how limiting it can be in terms of the reactions you can choose from during disputes.

If we want a peaceful society we need to Legalize as much as humanly possible and allow civil tort law to deal with the rest.

Illegal immigration could very easily be handled through indentured servitude....

And the outright prohibition of inanimate objects needs to end asafp

Its not about whats 'best' for anyone... or whats in 'society's interest.

Its about freedom.

When you create black markets, and parallel coercive forces through exclusion from legal systems you CAUSE the problems you try to fix.

let me put it this way.

If you are a convicted felon and you have been to jail you KNOW how easy it is for someone to break into your house at night and do bad things to you and your family, you've seen some of those guys in prison, you've heard what they did and how they did it.

So you get out and you are not allowed to own a gun... but you KNOW what can happen if you don't have a gun.

So you get one on the black market

Because you got one on the black market, you are breaking the law, and buying from someone who is breaking the law, who is getting it from someone who may have committed a crime to get it in the first place...

So you receive this possibly stolen property and hide it in your house.

but now you are in a situation where you cannot ask for help from police if there is a chance they may come into your home, you can't call the fire department until you make sure the gun is hidden, you can't access emergency services... etc.

You are outside of the law.

If something of yours gets stolen, your only recourse is to look for it yourself, to talk with other criminals to figure out where it went. If the gun goes missing... well your screwed... better go buy another one from the guy who buys and sells stolen guns.

If you catch the guy stealing from you in the act, you have VERY limited options.... if you pull the gun on him and hold him untill the police arive you WILL go to jail... and you may have to use it... if you use it then call the police you WILL go to jail.... if you use it and cover up the 'crime' you MAY go to jail... So you use it and cover up the crime... now instead of breaking and entering, you have a guy who shot another guy in cold blood and hid the evidence.... which he would have been less likly to do if he could have legally had the gun in the first place.

now if the convicted fellon cannot get a decent job and cannot afford rent outside of a very very bad neighborhood, he may decide that he needs to carry the gun for self protection. He is MUCH more likely to need a firearm for self defense than he is to get stopped and frisked by law enforcement... so there are strong incentives to do so... but if he carries the gun for self protection and he IS searched... he will be going back to prison. now the decision is if it is better to go back to jail or to roll the dice and see who is faster on the draw him or the police.

Ever wonder why there is such RAMPANT drug use in the construction industry?

It is because of the high rate of injury and the inexpensive cost (and ready access) of street drugs compared to getting medical care and a prescription for chronic pain sufferers... If your back is blown out and you NEED to work, you're going to get medication and your going to work, and if the doctor won't write the prescription for you, or you can't afford the visit... well then you're going to get some opiate or other painkiller and use it.

I saw first hand one very interesting case of a contractor who spent 20+ years as a coke head before quitting... who then had his brain fried on prescription medication (antidepressants and other stuff) which his shrink put him on....

Had he stuck with the coke he'd be a heckuva lot better off today.... but he wanted to be a good example for his kid.... and he wanted to be a law abiding individual... and he could afford the medical care to get his problems treated by 'professionals' so he went legit.... now he's a drooling vegtable.

I'm pretty much rambling right now so I'm going to stop and go back to shopping for watches.

I was trying to make a point, but it may have gotten lost in the diatribe.

Denver
12-29-2009, 7:48 PM
Good diatribe Ajax, I rather enjoyed most of it.

Donít turn my world into a police state because you canít control your self!

How true that be. But I think it is actually the governments nature to capitalize on that perceived aspect to enact it's police state. The old problem / solution tactic.

Mr.CRC
12-29-2009, 8:28 PM
After you have done the poll question, please consider the following questions? Nicki

Will the Mexican Drug War stay in Mexico? I don't know.

Is the Mexican Drug War a threat to our security? Yes, but it is manifestation rather than the cause of the threat to our security.

Is the Mexican Drug War a threat to you and your families personal safety? Yes.

The cause of this threat is the policies of the US Government, specifically, the "War on Drugs."

Just like the so-called "War on Terrorism", it is not in the government's interest to see either of these wars end. For that reason, they will never end and the government will milk them indefinitely for more power until we are indeed living in a state of totalitarianism.

The solution is simple and obvious. Legalize all drugs. Just sales tax. The only regulation needed for the entire drug industry is to have all marketed products assayed or in some way confirmed to have been produced according to some reasonable standards of purity, cleanliness, etc. Though, for currently illegal drugs, it will be far easier to be confident that one is getting clean stuff in a free market even without government regulation than in a black market.

The point of course, for those who don't understand markets or liberty enough to see why legalization is the solution, is that 1. the market prices will collapse putting the violent criminal black market operators out of business (since they will be unlikely to compete in an open market with people who's skills are actually producing good drugs rather than running a mafia). Thus the violence will come to a screeching halt. Hint: government doesn't want this. And 2. the number of people using drugs might increase slightly but who gives a hoot because people should be completely responsible for their health and actions in a free society. There is simply no Constitutional basis for the US government to regulate the contents of ones blood stream. In all likelyhood the social problem of drug abuse will be little changed (actually improved, as cheaper drugs will drastically reduce the severity of crimes committed in order to fund drug habits.

For the non abusers who can control casual use, probably there will be a net benefit as a significant number of alcohol users will get mellowed out by switching to less harmful pot.

The greatest present-day threat to the security of the United States is the policies of the US Government. This is true with drugs, terrorism, the environment, health care, the economy, the financial system, etc. I presently can't think of a single thing this government (or any other, for that matter) does right. We would be far better off if it simply evaporated in the middle of the night and privatized virtually all "services" that it forces us to "purchase" at gunpoint and is accountable to no-one when it delivers only death, destruction, financial, and economic ruin in exchange for our tax dollars and condemning our children to indebtedness.

I have become convinced that government is a failed social organizing institution. It doesn't and can never work. I won't cover the reasons why here (refer to various literature on the political philosophy of Libertarianism and the phenomenon of market Capitalism). Either we will wake up and get this, or the current government paradigm will evolve into all-encompassing global totalitarianism.

If we don't get it, then our present license to keep arms (it has long ceased being a right in practice) will disappear as well as most of our other freedoms.

Next time there is a problem that you are debating about with someone or yourself, try something radically different. Try to imagine how we as individuals, families, communities, and companies can approach the problem without government.

There is always a better answer than government. Government is not the answer. Government is a question. The answer is "no."

Mr.CRC
12-29-2009, 8:34 PM
Make markets legitimate and you'll eliminate 99.99999% of all negative effects created by 'black' markets. [edit a lot] I'm pretty much rambling right now so I'm going to stop and go back to shopping for watches. I was trying to make a point, but it may have gotten lost in the diatribe.

This guy gets it. Thanks for the hope.

Interestingly, I have been shopping for watches as well!

Good luck finding a nice watch.

N6ATF
12-29-2009, 9:06 PM
Considering both the cartels and the Mexican government want as much hostility, chaos and murder as possible, they'll both win by keeping this a stalemate until the end of time.

HUTCH 7.62
12-29-2009, 9:44 PM
So then people who use drugs support terrorism?

So then gun's support terrorism?

Your logic befuddles me. You are blaming the object again just like the left blames the gun (object). There really is a correlation.

I think the Constitution was written on Hemp paper, must be a terrorist document then. Or is it only if it is smoked?

:)

Only a Terrorist would relate buying a legal firearm to buying illegal drugs

tombinghamthegreat
12-30-2009, 12:27 AM
It does support Terrorists. IE Drug cartels who are Terrorizing the people of Mexico. So if you use you are are a Terrorist. end of story

And the US government doesn't support terrorist?

Only a Terrorist would relate buying a legal firearm to buying illegal drugs

Is that a serious comment?

HUTCH 7.62
12-30-2009, 7:30 AM
HMM If Kommiefornia legalizes drugs then all the druggies will gravatate to the PRK. would'nt that make the PRK a giant Concentration camp for Druggies???

Just my two cents

GuyW
12-30-2009, 8:19 AM
Who cares - nuke everything south of the border....the Mexican government is as corrupt as any drug cartel...

.

HUTCH 7.62
12-30-2009, 1:47 PM
Who cares - nuke everything south of the border....the Mexican government is as corrupt as any drug cartel...

.

But first off, give all the druggies in the US a free five day vacation in Mexico, and the nuke the place on the 4 day