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Peaceful John
12-28-2009, 11:05 AM
Presuming Heller is incorporated, will that automatically (i.e., without further action on our part) mean that states are required to honor CCW's issued by other states? Non-resident CCW's?

Window_Seat
12-28-2009, 12:43 PM
The esteemed Mr. Hoffman will have to weigh in on this question, but my guess on that will be that states like CA will not until the Legislature makes it happen after court cases are settled post McDonald, Nordyke, Sykes, etc. Few legislators like Knight will already have SI and reciprocity bills authored. I read somewhere here that the courts cannot change the text of legislation passed, they can only make such legislation null & void. What can they do with 12050? This legislature will not make it happen until they are forced with action, no? Gene? GQ otherwise.:cool:

Erik.

Liberty1
12-28-2009, 1:16 PM
...will that automatically (i.e., without further action on our part) mean that states are required to honor CCW's issued by other states?

No. There will need to be a law suit.

Peaceful John
12-28-2009, 3:12 PM
Thank you, Window Seat and Liberty1.

Cordially,
John

CHS
12-28-2009, 5:25 PM
Nothing is ever automatic in law. Everything must be changed by either political action (I.E. new laws, repeal of old laws, etc) or legal action (laws are struck down by courts, legal binding precedent, etc).

Gray Peterson
12-28-2009, 5:32 PM
No. Reciprocity and recognition will occur only after there's a suit over the issuance of licenses by sheriffs to non-residents of the state of California. A way to keep the sheriffs with getting overloaded with apps from out of state.

yellowfin
12-28-2009, 5:47 PM
In the post Sykes world, which will likely be demanded, non resident California CCW's, honoring out of state licenses, or non resident LOC?

CCWFacts
12-28-2009, 7:31 PM
I would expect there would need to be a lawsuit. I expect it to win. States would need to offer either reciprocity or non-res CCWs. There's no way that residents have a right like that and non-residents don't have it.

Of course reciprocity would be the best thing, but probably some anti-gun states will push for offering non-res CCWs, just to impose burdens and get money from visitors.

Gray Peterson
12-28-2009, 10:54 PM
I would expect there would need to be a lawsuit. I expect it to win. States would need to offer either reciprocity or non-res CCWs. There's no way that residents have a right like that and non-residents don't have it.

Of course reciprocity would be the best thing, but probably some anti-gun states will push for offering non-res CCWs, just to impose burdens and get money from visitors.

You got it. However, once sheriffs are forced to issue licenses, and they get flooded with non-resident apps once the appropriate case is filed and it's won, they're gonna scream to the legislature to "fix it". Reason being is that California is a VERY large state geographically, and the desire for the licenses from up Oregon, Washington, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah would be quite high.

wildhawker
12-28-2009, 10:58 PM
I can see CA DOJ issuing permits within 4 years, possibly sooner. The real variable that will control demand will be the requirements for non-res carry permits (in-state class/in-state application vs. Utah-style vs. Florida-style).

Uriah02
12-28-2009, 11:02 PM
Presuming Heller is incorporated, will that automatically (i.e., without further action on our part) mean that states are required to honor CCW's issued by other states? Non-resident CCW's?

No way... incorporation of Heller would only establish that the American people (individuals) have the right to personally own firearms.

hoffmang
12-29-2009, 12:06 AM
McDonald is the neccessary key stone to then file non-resident carry license cases. Post Sykes/Palmer, it should not take very long for one to carry in all 50 states with minimal hassle. In fact, we may very well just get Federal carry license reciprocity law as we missed it by only a vote or three the most recent time it was tried.

-Gene

Window_Seat
12-29-2009, 4:38 AM
Mr. Hoffman,

It's interesting that you mention the recent "reciprocity" vote that missed by one, as I was giving that much thought during my regular gig to SAC last night, and I might ask... How likely is it that we could get something like that tacked onto some bill in the Congress that is sure to be signed into law by Mr. Obama after 11/02/2010? I would go far enought to predict that we will have more 2A friendly lawmakers after that date, no? Not that simple?

Erik.

Mulay El Raisuli
12-29-2009, 5:26 AM
In the post Sykes world, which will likely be demanded, non resident California CCW's, honoring out of state licenses, or non resident LOC?


My suspicion/hope (based what was said & not said in Heller) is that LOC will become the Minimal Const. Standard. IE, no license required anywhere.

As for CCW, my guess is that it will be reciprocity rather than non-resident CCW. I don't have court language to go on here, but that's the way we handle diver's licenses & that's as good a blueprint to follow as any.


The Raisuli

yellowfin
12-29-2009, 6:46 AM
I'll gladly OC anywhere out of state I'm visiting if that's what I can do. Quite frankly I prefer it for travel anyway. I'll need to get something with a really tough finish for OC'ing at the Jersey shore, though.

CCWFacts
12-29-2009, 8:09 AM
In fact, we may very well just get Federal carry license reciprocity law as we missed it by only a vote or three the most recent time it was tried.

That is true. The Thune amendment (http://thune.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=26677f6a-9285-43c0-8659-f390c282867e&Month=7&Year=2009) came within a couple of votes of passing this past July. It's very clear that the Republicans will pick up a handful of seats in the Senate next year so presumably they would have enough votes to finally pass it. And if they do, they will pass it by 60 votes so they can overcome Obama's veto.

They have been pushing national reciprocity bills every year for the past ten years or so, and they get closer every time.

(I wish they had tacked it on to the healthcare bill!)

AEC1
12-29-2009, 8:11 AM
I would love eather Recip or non res. I am in the military, have a FL (resisdent) CCW and it is useless. I couldent get a CA even if I wanted to as I am not a resident...

VegasND
12-29-2009, 8:38 AM
I would love eather Recip or non res. I am in the military, have a FL (resisdent) CCW and it is useless. I couldent get a CA even if I wanted to as I am not a resident...
I'm in the same situation as you. I'm a Nevada resident who is in California once or twice a month. It's not a good feeling to go unarmed to places that are more dangerous than the places you go armed. Reciprocity or non-resident CCW would be very welcome.

Fjold
12-29-2009, 10:32 AM
Slightly :threadjacked: (sorry).

Isn't the Chicago/Oak Park brief for McDonald due tomorrow?

hoffmang
12-29-2009, 2:05 PM
Slightly :threadjacked: (sorry).

Isn't the Chicago/Oak Park brief for McDonald due tomorrow?

I believe so. We may not see it until late in the day and it will likely be first published to Chicagoguncase.com

-Gene

press1280
12-29-2009, 2:17 PM
That is true. The Thune amendment (http://thune.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=26677f6a-9285-43c0-8659-f390c282867e&Month=7&Year=2009) came within a couple of votes of passing this past July. It's very clear that the Republicans will pick up a handful of seats in the Senate next year so presumably they would have enough votes to finally pass it. And if they do, they will pass it by 60 votes so they can overcome Obama's veto.

They have been pushing national reciprocity bills every year for the past ten years or so, and they get closer every time.

(I wish they had tacked it on to the healthcare bill!)
Ought to try to attach it to the health care bill. It'll be a win win. We'll either get national reciprocity or blow up a crappy, utterly unconstitutional takeover of health care.

6172crew
12-29-2009, 2:50 PM
I'm in the same situation as you. I'm a Nevada resident who is in California once or twice a month. It's not a good feeling to go unarmed to places that are more dangerous than the places you go armed. Reciprocity or non-resident CCW would be very welcome.

Yep, same here.

GM4spd
12-29-2009, 4:21 PM
Never---- regardless of what,if,lawsuits are filed. Pete

Merle
12-29-2009, 8:11 PM
Yep, same here.

Saw your post and chuckled when I read it. I was just in Elk Grove when I read your reply this morning (GF's place). A GF moved from Churchill Downs (end of Calvine near Vintage Park) to Strawberry Creek (Calvine & 99).

Elk Grove is NOT the safe neighborhood as it was years back. I distinctly feel much safer in NV than I do in CA even with the Sheriff's station on Waterman.

She's had her car broken into twice, a neighbor had all 4 wheels stolen, a gang fight w/ the requisite knifing happened in the park behind her place, we'd watch people do donuts in the middle of street, you read about the marijuana houses, etc. etc.

Oh, a CO next door moved away for a safer neighborhood.

In Nevada, the worst thing that's happened is that either a a) bear or b) kids removed the cover from my hot tub and it's now an ice cube.

hoffmang
12-29-2009, 8:48 PM
Never---- regardless of what,if,lawsuits are filed. Pete

You don't know much about the privileges and immunities clause then.

-Gene

loather
01-06-2010, 11:25 AM
In Nevada, the worst thing that's happened is that either a a) bear or b) kids removed the cover from my hot tub and it's now an ice cube.

Get a jackhammer, a truckload of limes, and a few gallons of tequila and you'll have yourself one hell of a party :)

The bear's no joke though. Does clanking together pots and pans make the bears they have in NV go away? The black bears here in CA usually do unless they've got cubs and you stand between her and them.

Back on topic: Even in the CA legislature there's a bill for CCW reciprocity. We should push for that as well.

Milsurp Collector
01-06-2010, 11:40 AM
And if they do, they will pass it by 60 votes so they can overcome Obama's veto.



67. It takes a 2/3 vote of the Senate (and House) to override a Presidential veto. 60 votes are necessary in the Senate to end debate (a filibuster) before a vote. ;)


Section 7 - Revenue Bills, Legislative Process, Presidential Veto

Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of Adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill.

shadow-ote
01-06-2010, 1:24 PM
I was considering the Utah ccw for this very reason, but was told it may not fly as it would be a non-resident type.

yellowfin
01-06-2010, 4:31 PM
Believe it or not, the highest priority state for forcing non resident carry might not be California but Maryland. More daily commute and business overlap occurs between MD and PA and VA (and DC as well) as a percentage of the population. To get the same with CA you'd have to have LA, San Jose, and San Diego each within an hour of Phoenix, Vegas, and Seattle.