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View Full Version : Local FFL afraid of DOJ re: OLL's


xxdabroxx
12-28-2009, 8:37 AM
I have a local FFL that has had the fear of god instilled in them by their DOJ auditor. (i guess that's what we would call him) What can I do to educate them about the laws? What can I do to stop the fear mongering. They were specifically using the "capacity to accept" language to scare the FFL into not dealing with OLL items, as well as something about needing additional licenses to deal with AR type rifles. I think they were insinuating that they would need an assault weapon type FFL?

Is there a calguns FFL outreach program.

wash
12-28-2009, 8:50 AM
Some times there is nothing you can do beside finding a new FFL.

As legal as an OLL is, some FFL's just don't want to deal with them and only a loss of business might change their mind.

oaklander
12-28-2009, 9:01 AM
PM Bill.

I have a local FFL that has had the fear of god instilled in them by their DOJ auditor. (i guess that's what we would call him) What can I do to educate them about the laws? What can I do to stop the fear mongering. They were specifically using the "capacity to accept" language to scare the FFL into not dealing with OLL items, as well as something about needing additional licenses to deal with AR type rifles. I think they were insinuating that they would need an assault weapon type FFL?

Is there a calguns FFL outreach program.

1919_4_ME
12-28-2009, 9:05 AM
I have a local FFL that has had the fear of god instilled in them by their DOJ auditor. (i guess that's what we would call him) What can I do to educate them about the laws? What can I do to stop the fear mongering. They were specifically using the "capacity to accept" language to scare the FFL into not dealing with OLL items, as well as something about needing additional licenses to deal with AR type rifles. I think they were insinuating that they would need an assault weapon type FFL?

Is there a calguns FFL outreach program.


The best thing you can do is send him a link to the for sale ads here that usually changes them real quick,lol..:o

Scotty
12-28-2009, 9:18 AM
I know a FFL who still won't touch them. The FFL is not his primary business, he only does it on the side. DOJ has warned him, despite being legal. He just doesn't want any extra attention from DOJ. That's his business. I still use him for other stuff mainly because he's not trying to profit with his FFL.

Fate
12-28-2009, 10:00 AM
PM Bill.

+1. PM BWiese. That kind of "underground regulation" has to stop and CGF is just the team for the job.

Flopper
12-28-2009, 10:39 AM
+1. PM BWiese. That kind of "underground regulation" has to stop and CGF is just the team for the job.

Can't stress this enough.

DOJ has to stop spreading fear and misinformation.

bwiese
12-28-2009, 10:56 AM
There are still some FFLs that won't carry OLLs, and they're good guys, and are not reacting to misinformation or spreading FUD.

They figure they just don't want the grief/time burned for any entanglement, esp for a low-margin item like a receiver. One FFL I know already went $10K in the hole for a bogus charge by Iggy, so he's understandably a bit scared.

There's now enough FFLs out there carrying OLLs that this is not really a worry now. Forces of capitalism will bring others on board over time.

Sgt Raven
12-28-2009, 11:08 AM
There are still some FFLs that won't carry OLLs, and they're good guys, and are not reacting to misinformation or spreading FUD.

They figure they just don't want the grief/time burned for any entanglement, esp for a low-margin item like a receiver. One FFL I know already went $10K in the hole for a bogus charge by Iggy, so he's understandably a bit scared.

There's now enough FFLs out there carrying OLLs that this is not really a worry now. Forces of capitalism will bring others on board over time.

Bill, I think CGF should keeo track of which DOJ auditors are spreading FUD if for no other reason, then just general purposes.

bwiese
12-28-2009, 11:15 AM
Bill, I think CGF should keeo track of which DOJ auditors are spreading FUD if for no other reason, then just general purposes.


Agreed. But I am saying that this is not exclusively due to misinformed auditors, some FFLs just wanna sell their cowboy and hunting guns and Brownings: it's a business they know, and that they get more margin on (they feel) than straight receiver sales.

Tankhatch
12-28-2009, 11:31 AM
I have a local FFL that has had the fear of god instilled in them by their DOJ auditor. (i guess that's what we would call him) What can I do to educate them about the laws? What can I do to stop the fear mongering. They were specifically using the "capacity to accept" language to scare the FFL into not dealing with OLL items, as well as something about needing additional licenses to deal with AR type rifles. I think they were insinuating that they would need an assault weapon type FFL?

If the auditor cannot put the offending statute # in writing & sign it with his name & badge #,,,, its FUD.
(Maybe a bit costly upfront to contest the auditor's misconception (if you get cited), but you will win)

FeuerFrei
12-28-2009, 11:33 AM
Maybe FFLs should log the names of these fear mongering DOJ agents and post their name in public forums.
Fear works both ways.
Maybe their incompetency coming to light might make the DOJ realize they can't make it up as they go.

bodger
12-28-2009, 11:43 AM
I just picked up a handgun at a gun shop today, from PPT ten days ago. I asked if the shop would take a shipment of an OLL from another FFL, out of state, and DROS to me.

I was informed that they don't touch OLLs at all, because the bullet button is a situation where the law has been used to defeat the law, and DOJ has not said that OLLs are actually legal.

Oh well.
They do sell the Bushmaster Carbon 15 with the sealed magwell and pinned 10 round internal mag.

Telperion
12-28-2009, 11:48 AM
There's now enough FFLs out there carrying OLLs that this is not really a worry now. Forces of capitalism will bring others on board over time.

This is the best solution. EBRs and such are the fastest growing segment of the firearms industry. Eventually the FFLs will figure out where the market is spending its money.

xxdabroxx
12-28-2009, 12:26 PM
Agreed. But I am saying that this is not exclusively due to misinformed auditors, some FFLs just wanna sell their cowboy and hunting guns and Brownings: it's a business they know, and that they get more margin on (they feel) than straight receiver sales.

These guys told me specifically that the reason they will not deal with OLL is that the DOJ guy, cannot remember his name, told them that he will pull their license if he see's OLL on their books. These are normal capacity magazine 2A loving guys, not your average you don't need a semi-auto guys. The majority of their firearms they sell are Glocks, and pistol gripped shotguns FWIW.

pepsi2451
12-28-2009, 12:42 PM
When I picked up my AR (bullet button) a couple weeks ago my FFL said someone from the DOJ had been in there and told them that if the magazine is removed it becomes and AW. I should have gotten his name but I didn't think about it at the time.

Write Winger
12-28-2009, 12:48 PM
I just picked up a handgun at a gun shop today, from PPT ten days ago. I asked if the shop would take a shipment of an OLL from another FFL, out of state, and DROS to me.

I was informed that they don't touch OLLs at all, because the bullet button is a situation where the law has been used to defeat the law, and DOJ has not said that OLLs are actually legal.

Oh well.
They do sell the Bushmaster Carbon 15 with the sealed magwell and pinned 10 round internal mag.

I'm realizing more and more that DOJ as well as FFLs and the public in general don't know their @$$ from a hole in the wall, though I don't blame them. How can anyone follow a legal and lawful "flow chart" when hardly anyone knows it exists when you have to read through pages and pages of law to come up with one?

bwiese
12-28-2009, 12:49 PM
These guys told me specifically that the reason they will not deal with OLL is that the DOJ guy, cannot remember his name, told them that he will pull their license if he see's OLL on their books. These are normal capacity magazine 2A loving guys, not your average you don't need a semi-auto guys. The majority of their firearms they sell are Glocks, and pistol gripped shotguns FWIW.

Please, please please have that FFL get in touch with me or another CGFer (Gene or Oaklander) with that auditor's name and/or contact info.

An auditor can't pull a license on non-law, regardless of what he says. And this conduct will not affect the FFL's relationship with the BATF whatsoever.

xxdabroxx
12-28-2009, 12:55 PM
Please, please please have that FFL get in touch with me or another CGFer (Gene or Oaklander) with that auditor's name and/or contact info.

An auditor can't pull a license on non-law, regardless of what he says. And this conduct will not affect the FFL's relationship with the BATF whatsoever.

I don't know if pull the license is exactly correct, but it was something to the effect that they would indeed lose their license. I will forward you their contact info as well as have a talk with them re finding out who it is. Can you PM me some contact info for someone who would be good to contact? Its an auditor from the fresno branch of the DOJ if what they tell me is correct.

WokMaster1
12-28-2009, 1:05 PM
Can't you just send your FFL a copy of Turner's newspaper ad with the OLLs???

Liberty1
12-28-2009, 1:09 PM
Get these guy on tape please. Some in store security records audio too. I would love to see this FUD on tape! :D

xxdabroxx
12-28-2009, 1:09 PM
Can't you just send your FFL a copy of Turner's newspaper ad with the OLLs???

that will show them what they already know, that they are being sold. But it wont keep them from fearing the DOJ repercussions. They know that other local FFL's are selling them, but their rep stated that he already closed one shop down in Woodlake (i think) for selling OLL's. Although i believe if there is even the most remote possibility of an ffl getting closed down it was probably for "manufacturing" rifles rather than selling stripped lowers, if it is true at all.

bwiese
12-28-2009, 1:13 PM
Over a year or so ago, there was one DOJ agent/auditor having issues with CA-legal Saiga rifles.

Gene had some spare cycles and sent a private letter to him stating the groundwork for legality, etc. and then said if he continued the behavior we'd invite him to a nice pre-litigation chat with his mgmt chain, including Will Cid.

The Saiga drama ended immediately.

Sgt Raven
12-28-2009, 1:43 PM
Over a year or so ago, there was one DOJ agent/auditor having issues with CA-legal Saiga rifles.

Gene had some spare cycles and sent a private letter to him stating the groundwork for legality, etc. and then said if he continued the behavior we'd invite him to a nice pre-litigation chat with his mgmt chain, including Will Cid.

The Saiga drama ended immediately.

That's why I want y'all at CGF to know which DOJ agents are spreading FUD. ;)

xxdabroxx
12-28-2009, 2:22 PM
I am going to print the AW FAQ today and take that with me for a little bit of reading material for them. On second though, this thing is pretty cool I may print two.

I think i will print them the bright spot pawn article as well.

artherd
12-28-2009, 2:59 PM
These guys told me specifically that the reason they will not deal with OLL is that the DOJ guy, cannot remember his name, told them that he will pull their license if he see's OLL on their books.

Get me the name of that DOJ guy - I will pull his license to BS.

Gene had some spare cycles.

Funny how when Gene gets spare cycles... laws get followed.

thedrickel
12-28-2009, 3:28 PM
McKinnon still pushes the capacity to accept BS if he thinks you are stupid enough to believe him. My gut feeling is that all of the field agents/auditors do the same thing.

artherd
12-28-2009, 4:36 PM
We've been watching him...

6172crew
12-28-2009, 5:19 PM
McKinnon still pushes the capacity to accept BS if he thinks you are stupid enough to believe him. My gut feeling is that all of the field agents/auditors do the same thing.

He was doing that back in 2004 when we used to call about OLLs. He told me I would have to build him a rifle so he can test it and keep it for future reference.

Major FUD master.

turbosbox
12-28-2009, 5:37 PM
And this thread illustrates why we need to support and donate. It's sad that we have to fight to keep our freedom... in our own country :tank:

Edit: Don't get me wrong, no militia bs. I mean legal and political fighting.

artherd
12-28-2009, 7:34 PM
^ Indeed, we must hang to together, or we will surely all hang separately.

FortCourageArmory
12-28-2009, 9:47 PM
He was doing that back in 2004 when we used to call about OLLs. He told me I would have to build him a rifle so he can test it and keep it for future reference.

Major FUD master.
He did the same with me on my last audit (April, 2008). Some leopards just don't change their spots.

rsandovaljr
12-28-2009, 10:00 PM
Gene

Not to get off topic but can we make the AW flow chart into a T-shirt . Maybe some FFL's can wear it when the DOJ stops bye. It could also be sold to cal gunners . : )

Colt-45
12-28-2009, 10:16 PM
Gene

Not to get off topic but can we make the AW flow chart into a T-shirt . Maybe some FFL's can wear it when the DOJ stops bye. It could also be sold to cal gunners . : )

That's a hell of an idea lol, sounds like something I'd wear to the range or when transporting an OLL just in case I'm pulled over.


xxdabroxx this was in the Fresno area? hahaha if this auditor is from the area I'm pretty sure he's been to PRK Arms in Fresno. They take no BS from the CA DOJ, they sell OLL's and they haven't had their license "pulled". You walk into their shop and it feels almost as if you're in a free state :gunsmilie:

xxdabroxx
12-28-2009, 10:22 PM
I have an update, i went in the shop and spoke with one of the owners (i presume). I asked the name of the DOJ guy, and from what i made out of our brief discussion is that he hasn't been in contact with him for a while, read multiple years, or that was the last time he got that particular DOJ guy's card. Not sure as some customers came in and he got busy.

I hung out for a bit and left him with copies of the ar/ak faq, fixed/detachable mag faq, the flowchart, and a copy of the bright spot story. He seemed eager to read through the material, but there still may be some digging to do. I told him i would stop by again after work tomorrow.

We will have more people spreading the BRD soon methinks. :43:

xxdabroxx this was in the Fresno area? hahaha if this auditor is from the area I'm pretty sure he's been to PRK Arms in Fresno. They take no BS from the CA DOJ, they sell OLL's and they haven't had their license "pulled". You walk into their shop and it feels almost as if you're in a free state :gunsmilie:

That's what i was thinking too, but now i think he may have just been really behind on the laws even though he knew other people were selling ar's. I will have to try and talk to him more tomorrow as he was pretty busy this evening.

Colt-45
12-28-2009, 10:31 PM
I'm suspecting that DOJ auditor was just spreading fear to an FFL that loves his license and his work so much that he doesn't want to run the risk of losing it.

I'm pretty sure that same Fresno DOJ guy has seen these racks before.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/IMG_7929.jpg

Prk Arms Fresno.:43: Show your FFL buddy these pics, they're on the PRK forum here on calguns, maybe he'll see the light.:cool2:

xxdabroxx
12-28-2009, 10:39 PM
the weird thing is that he is aware of other people doing it. I dunno, going to have to speak with the guy a little more and see if we can't get him over his BRDfobia.

hoffmang
12-29-2009, 12:17 AM
Every time I hear about a "DOJ Auditor" spreading FUD it's usually Mr. McKinnon..

-Gene

Bugei
12-29-2009, 9:57 AM
Over a year or so ago, there was one DOJ agent/auditor having issues with CA-legal Saiga rifles.

Gene had some spare cycles and sent a private letter to him stating the groundwork for legality, etc. and then said if he continued the behavior we'd invite him to a nice pre-litigation chat with his mgmt chain, including Will Cid.

The Saiga drama ended immediately.

Aaaaaaaaah. Things like this are like a cup of hot cocoa on a cold morning. Comforting.

Chatterbox
12-29-2009, 10:26 AM
It would be pretty cool if we could get AIM to ship to CA....

greasemonkey
02-04-2010, 11:37 PM
Dave I guess you know the answer to that question by now with how much you're helping out at the World Ag Expo booth next week. Yes, there is one hell of an outreach program just getting kicked off!

I have about 5,000 copies of flow charts citing Penal Codes and memos from the Sacramento PD about the legality of OLLs if that FFL would like to have a few :) Invite him to the Calguns booth. If OLLs scare him, our booth is going to make him cry, maybe even pee his pants!
:D

Is there a calguns FFL outreach program.

B Strong
02-05-2010, 6:32 AM
Bill, I think CGF should keeo track of which DOJ auditors are spreading FUD if for no other reason, then just general purposes.


It would be awful difficult to really nail down the truth about what's being said by these auditors short of an audio recording.

I too know dealers that won't touch OL firearms, and I'm sure some are quite sincere about believing that they are a "grey area" to be avoided, and some I also believe use the DOJ as a "boogyman" as a short cut to explaining why they won't handle them.

I know of instances where FFL's have quoted non-existent "ATF laws" to justify their doing or not doing something, there's no reason why this wouldn't be the case with so-called DOJ auditors "warnings".

tenpercentfirearms
02-05-2010, 6:40 AM
Sounds like you are doing a good job of educating him. Be patient and polite. I like the recommendation of showing him the commercial for sale forums or certain websites like mine and www.riflegear.com. If someone was going to get their licensed pulled, it would have been us.

You can always have them e-mail me too. guns@tenpercentfirearms.com

However, I am not that gung ho to try and convert other dealers. If they don't want to make money, I will. However, more and more dealers are finally seeing the money as the OGs continue to stay out of prison.