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View Full Version : Composit knuckles.


SteveH
12-27-2009, 3:38 PM
Effective Jan 1, 2010 "Composit knuckles" will be illegal to posses in California. They have been illegal to import, manufacture or sell for a few years now. But not illegal to possess or carry. That changes in a few days. If you have wooden or plastic "brass knuckles" get rid of them before Jan 1.


Example of composit knuckles:
http://www.security-wizard.net/blplkn.html

Bill text:
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0701-0750/ab_714_bill_20090806_chaptered.html

RP1911
12-27-2009, 3:40 PM
Humm...

My motorcycle riding gloves have carbon fibre knuckle protectors shaped as knuckles...

bodger
12-27-2009, 3:42 PM
A roll of quarters wrapped up in duct tape was always my favorite, though not as effective as a set of 'knucks.
No doubt illegal as well.

HowardW56
12-27-2009, 3:44 PM
A roll of quarters wrapped up in duct tape was always my favorite, though not as effective as a set of 'knucks.
No doubt illegal as well.


Try wrapping your hand around a Surefire E-2, or similar, flashlight...

SteveH
12-27-2009, 4:23 PM
Try wrapping your hand around a Surefire E-2, or similar, flashlight...

I've always suspected that would result in as much injury to my hand as to the other person. But i've never tried punching a heavy bag with something in my hand.

Anyway, the point of this thread is some people may become unknowing felons at midnight friday. If you have wooden, plastic or composite knuckles throw them away no later than thursday.

bodger
12-27-2009, 4:23 PM
Try wrapping your hand around a Surefire E-2, or similar, flashlight...


Nice. I Googled it.

bigcalidave
12-27-2009, 4:37 PM
Damn it ! how did that get through! Does anyone even read this ****? That ****ing law is tacked onto 12020 so it's illegal to posses!!!! It was bad enough when they made plastic knuckles illegal to manufacture or import for sale blah blah. Now you can't have them at all.

Have to throw out any you may have already.

Oh, and as far as I can read in that absurd bill, since they have to be worn for purposes of offense or defense in or on the
hand
any motorcycle gloves worn when you aren't riding could be called knuckles? Here are some pictures of motorcycle gloves I have. And I don't have a motorcycle anymore.

http://www.fc-moto.de/WebRoot/FCMotoDB/Shops/10207048/48FC/EA21/86CF/D1C3/3F04/3E70/5055/1F12/Icon_0020_Timax_0020_long_0020_gloves.jpg

http://www.fc-moto.de/WebRoot/FCMotoDB/Shops/10207048/48CE/C5E5/01FF/A690/E5E3/3E70/5055/2C63/FOX-Bomber-big.jpg

joelberg
12-27-2009, 4:52 PM
Humm...

My motorcycle riding gloves have carbon fibre knuckle protectors shaped as knuckles...

Exactly what I was thinking. My riding gloves have "composite knuckle protectors" also.

Capt. Speirs
12-27-2009, 5:23 PM
A Surefire or any small flashlight in your fist can do a lot of damage without even touching your hand. Have the light protrude from your closed fist a half an inch and smack the assailant in the temple, goes down like a sack of potatoes.

dirtnap
12-27-2009, 5:43 PM
Tactical operator gloves often have plastic knucles too, however I expect the gloves(motorcycle, tactical, etc) will not be a problem. Maybe if they are "novelty" gloves with a crazy set of knuckles it might be a problem.

kf6tac
12-27-2009, 5:44 PM
A Surefire or any small flashlight in your fist can do a lot of damage without even touching your hand. Have the light protrude from your closed fist a half an inch and smack the assailant in the temple, goes down like a sack of potatoes.

Especially if it has one of those notched bezels.

bigcalidave
12-27-2009, 6:12 PM
So does anyone agree that having gloves will violate this new change? If just owning brass knuckles / plastic knuckles is a crime, and the gloves could be used in exactly the same manner, why not? (my Icon TiMax gloves are WAY better than any brass knuckles, and provide serious protection to your hands.. :) I love em)

Cokebottle
12-27-2009, 6:15 PM
I think "it will be at the discretion of any of the 58 DA's in the State of California" :mad:

bigcalidave
12-27-2009, 6:41 PM
Yay for discretion! So if I wear my titanium gloves someday I may be prosecuted for metal knuckles, but now if I wear my mountain bike gloves I can be prosecuted for plastic knuckles as well? WTF

Prowler
12-27-2009, 6:48 PM
the problem with using a roll of coins or a flashlight is that once you open your hand, the object has less value to you as a "tool". It's only good for boxing-style fighting defenses, not street fighting or grappling. If you're interested in a loophole, try an s-link from your favorite home improvement store. Using a 1/4" or 5/16" s-link works just as well, but creates a problem when you open your hand to grab or grapple. Fits in your pocket or cupholder in your vehicle and is perfectly legal...until you use it as a weapon. Costs about $1.50.

cbn620
12-27-2009, 6:59 PM
More pointless laws. Like I'm gonna care about possession if I'm gonna go rough someone up. Like I can't make something roughly similar to brass knuckles/composite knuckles at home with nothing but hand tools...or even make shift hand tools.

Not even banning murder is effective at stopping people from hurting other people... it's gonna happen. How do they think banning a tool is going to solve the problem? We've already got stiff penalties for the actual act of hurting/killing someone and it doesn't stop anyone!

eta34
12-27-2009, 7:25 PM
I've always suspected that would result in as much injury to my hand as to the other person. But i've never tried punching a heavy bag with something in my hand.

Anyway, the point of this thread is some people may become unknowing felons at midnight friday. If you have wooden, plastic or composite knuckles throw them away no later than thursday.

I would respectfully submit the following: Ignorance is not excuse for breaking the law. We tell the police that. Shouldn't the same be true for everyone else?

On a side note...another silly law that I won't enforce.

My375hp302
12-27-2009, 8:31 PM
12020 also has a phrase that says something to the effect of " and any other dangerous weapon" so in reality, they were always illegal to posses outside of your home. Even that roll of quarters can fall under 12020 if you use them as a weapon. I know of a case where a shoe was used as a weapon and 12020 was charged and they were convicted. They were the agressor ofcourse.

dirtnap
12-27-2009, 8:35 PM
I would respectfully submit the following: Ignorance is not excuse for breaking the law. We tell the police that. Shouldn't the same be true for everyone else?

On a side note...another silly law that I won't enforce.

I disagree.

You are supposed to be a specialist in the law department, why would you expect the average person to have the same grasp of the subject as you? The DR doesn't blame you for getting sick(the first time) because you didn't know about a specific virus.

xr650r
12-28-2009, 8:43 AM
http://www.donrearic.com/images/stinger1.jpg

How about a "knuckle" like this? Illegal?

eta34
12-28-2009, 8:51 AM
I disagree.

You are supposed to be a specialist in the law department, why would you expect the average person to have the same grasp of the subject as you? The DR doesn't blame you for getting sick(the first time) because you didn't know about a specific virus.

Where do you draw the line then? What laws should the average citizen be exempt from due to ignorance?

wellerjohn
12-28-2009, 10:50 AM
Where do you draw the line then? What laws should the average citizen be exempt from due to ignorance?

Ignorance is no excuse, they will try and convict you based on the written law. Whether you know it or not does not matter, it all comes down to oppinon of the local DA.

Cokebottle
12-28-2009, 12:23 PM
Where do you draw the line then? What laws should the average citizen be exempt from due to ignorance?
There are apparently laws that cops are exempt from due to ignorance... and "good faith" absolutely exonerates them on a personal civil level.

How about we start there and eliminate the double standard where highly trained and educated professionals are given a pass for not knowing the law, but some uneducated Joe that just moved into California from a free state last week is expected to know that he:
Has to declare his guns
Shouldn't have brought in his throwing stars or 3" switchblades
Can't talk on his cellphone while he's driving
Can't smoke in the car with his child (that passed didn't it?)

It is simply impossible for ANYONE to know all of the laws of the state... but cops have a computer terminal in their car. They can look everything up.... yet they get a pass when they make a false arrest.

I've never gotten a pass on my job for not knowing something... and I'm expected to give the public a pass. I'm the one with the training, they aren't.

Pont
12-28-2009, 2:43 PM
http://www.donrearic.com/images/stinger1.jpg

How about a "knuckle" like this? Illegal?

Just decorate it more to make it look like a religious ornament.:43:

SteveH
12-28-2009, 3:48 PM
http://www.donrearic.com/images/stinger1.jpg

How about a "knuckle" like this? Illegal?

Jan 1, 2010 it will be.

bigcalidave
12-28-2009, 4:03 PM
Honestly, I don't have a problem with the laws against using them in a battery, or as an additional charge. But to get in trouble for POSSESSING plastic knuckles? That's absurd. I wonder how many thousands of them were sold in CA after metal ones were outlawed, and how many more were brought in. Not to mention owning GLOVES is illegal now as well. How friggin stupid is this, the most illegal thing I own could be my gloves? WTF!

NSR500
12-29-2009, 12:19 AM
Become a Sikh and just carry around a Kris.

rcantu
12-29-2009, 12:38 AM
just walk around with this and just say you exercise a lot. that foam on the outside will 'happen' to have worn off.

http://www.nelcoathletics.com/images/products-images/Miscellineous/HAND-WEIGHT-b.jpg

bigcalidave
12-29-2009, 12:49 AM
just walk around with this and just say you exercise a lot. that foam on the outside will 'happen' to have worn off.

http://www.nelcoathletics.com/images/products-images/Miscellineous/HAND-WEIGHT-b.jpg

Those probably have metal in them, and are already illegal to possess.

bigwhitetruck
12-29-2009, 1:54 AM
I've seen brass knuckles with a stud mounted on it so they can be used as a belt buckle. If someone did this to composite knuckles, then would it be exempt from this assinine (misspelled on purpose) law?

gozuki
12-29-2009, 8:02 AM
Good thing I saw this, just in time to prevent my 8yo from being a felon. Now I need to break the news. :(

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:n2N76SK9qdBu5M:http://daytimetalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/hulk-smash-hands.jpg

leelaw
12-29-2009, 10:46 AM
http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/Sauron_statue_L.jpg

Man, this guy's gonna be pissed!

SteveH
12-29-2009, 3:32 PM
I've seen brass knuckles with a stud mounted on it so they can be used as a belt buckle. If someone did this to composite knuckles, then would it be exempt from this assinine (misspelled on purpose) law?

Unlikely. Most of the Metal knuckles sold in the USA have a removable belt stud on them. Thats does not typically stop the cops from arresting or the DA from prosecuting. I could make a belt buckle out of a crack rock, its still crack.

AJAX22
12-29-2009, 4:28 PM
I keep my keys on an omega carabiner.... works great for keeping them from getting lost... and if I ever need to rappel from a building on short notice... well then I'm equipped.

Anything and everything is a weapon.... and we're all breaking the law all the time.

on a side note, I believe that if the average joe has a legal obligation to fully comprehend the law, then the law has an obligation to be comprehendable to the average joe.

If every action is both legal and illegal depending on what case history you cite and what interpretation your read... then it isn't cricket.

At that point you are a serf subject to the benevolance of your lords and their mercy.

which was the point in the first place.

Dangerpin
12-29-2009, 5:18 PM
Reminds me of this...

WEAPONS AT THE DOOR
W. J. Bethancourt III


As I roved out to Western Lands to take the Western Air
I went into a Revel Hall and I saw a Twelfth Night there
but I was halted at the gate by a Privy Counsellor
who told me I would have to check my Weapons at the door

As I, in my astonishment, stood hung on tenter-pegs
a Knight came in whose Prowess hung down between his legs
the Doorman grabbed a greatsword and he struck the Knight full sore
and gave him a receipt; he left his weapon at the door!

a Bard was next whose goodly Voice has entertained us all
but he, too, was prevented from entering the Hall
and told he could not carry deadly weapons on the floor
he left his Voice and Harp among the weapons at the door

a Master entered graciously, a man we all know well
who holds a 3rd Dan Black Belt, tho this he'd never tell
the Master struggled valiantly, the Master cursed and swore
but he left his hands, and feet, as weapons at the door

the company was jovial, although a bit dismayed
for lack of proper cutlery, down to the smallest blade
for even teeth and fingernails, each can be used in War
were cut, and pulled, and left behind, as weapons at the door!

And has their King not loyal Knights that He must be afraid
of brawling in his Hall and of Assassin's bloody blade?
the Rights of Men to carry Arms at least WE'VE not foreswore
and a POX on them that made the Rule of Weapons at the Door!

:) Pretty soon I'll need to register my teeth and fingernails.

SteveH
12-30-2009, 7:34 PM
I keep my keys on an omega carabiner.... works great for keeping them from getting lost... and if I ever need to rappel from a building on short notice... well then I'm equipped.


Again this is not a thread about improvised weapons. Its a heads up/warning to the younger crowd that may be unaware in the upcomming change to the law.

Just last night i had a conversation with a young man who got a "ninja star" as he described it given to him as a Christmas gift. The 18-22 crowd does not seem to be well versed in non-firearm related weapons laws.

bigcalidave
12-30-2009, 9:10 PM
The big issue is that it can be prosecuted for possession by a malicious DA. So a totally innocent person, who got pulled over for an infraction, maybe is a smartass OR just enforces their right to remain silent. Then the officer notices the motorcycle gloves in the back seat, like the ones I showed above. So he decides to arrest the driver for possession of "composite knuckles". Now the kid has a huge fight, or at least a misdemeanor charge ahead of him..
Great.

virulosity
12-31-2009, 8:51 AM
Just do what the cops do. Carry a 2 foot long D-Cell Maglite every where with you... even in daylight :donatello:

Skandy714
01-02-2010, 8:40 PM
Can I be arrested with just a misdemeanor?

SteveH
01-02-2010, 9:40 PM
Can I be arrested with just a misdemeanor?

I'm not sure what you are asking?

Not all misdemeanor violations are "bookable" at every jail. For example many jails will not accept booking for CPC 647f drunk in public.

Most Misdemeanors should be treated as a cite and release in the field (a ticket) however if the offense is likely to continue, the suspect doesnt have satisfactory proof of identity, the suspect doesnt have a local address/flight risk, or the suspect is intoxicated by drugs or alcohol then they should be booked into jail even if the offense is only a misdemeanor.

If an offense is a wobbler the cops are supposed to book at the jail and let the DA decide whether or not to file as a felony or Misdemeanor. Though I have heard some cops have sucessfully cited and released for wobblers. For example some counties with huge meth problems will cite and release for H&S 11377(a) as a misdemeanor even though its a wobbler. That might upset the DA though and I would not recommend it without some pre-existing agreement.

Skandy714
01-03-2010, 2:13 AM
@ SteveH, Since the law says if I was caught with plastic knuckles it would be a misdemeanor. So I was just wondering if would just get a ticket or get arrested. Thanks for your info too.

leelaw
01-03-2010, 2:39 AM
@ SteveH, Since the law says if I was caught with plastic knuckles it would be a misdemeanor. So I was just wondering if would just get a ticket or get arrested. Thanks for your info too.

Misdemeanors are generally cite release, unless there are other mitigating circumstances like a failure to identify, or other crimes to be charged for which would necessitate an arrest (ie: you didn't just have composit knuckles, but you used them to commit battery on another person).

ldsnet
01-03-2010, 9:11 AM
So much for this great tool.

http://www.kellyworden.com/TWProductPage.html

http://www.kellyworden.com/TWClip2_200.jpg

Ron-Solo
01-03-2010, 9:26 AM
Brass/Composite knuckles have no legitimate purpose other that to cause or increase injury, that is why they are illegal. They are ineffective in a self defense situation.

Get yourself some GOOD pepper spray. It is totally legal and you don't have to make physical contact with your attacker. Don't but the junk they sell at car washed, gas stations, etc. Go to a LE supplier and get the same stuff we carry. Trust me, it works.

And yes, I will bust someone for knuckles 99.8% of the time. You've got to really convince me not to.

ZRX61
01-03-2010, 6:47 PM
Oh, and as far as I can read in that absurd bill, since they have to be any motorcycle gloves worn when you aren't riding could be called knuckles? Here are some pictures of motorcycle gloves I have. And I don't have a motorcycle anymore.

http://www.fc-moto.de/WebRoot/FCMotoDB/Shops/10207048/48FC/EA21/86CF/D1C3/3F04/3E70/5055/1F12/Icon_0020_Timax_0020_long_0020_gloves.jpg



I have the same gloves :)

& on a related note about certain *classes* of body armor being illegal to own in Ca..... Does that make my crash helmet illegal to possess? ;)

bigcalidave
01-03-2010, 6:52 PM
Where do you find anything about body armor being illegal to possess?

ZRX61
01-03-2010, 6:55 PM
Read something about there being different classes of body armor & apparently civvies can't buy "the good stuff"

ke6guj
01-03-2010, 7:04 PM
Read something about there being different classes of body armor & apparently civvies can't buy "the good stuff"you probably read it wrong. There is no law against civilians buying body armor. What you probably read is that some manufacturer have corporate policies that they don't want sales to the public, which may be predicated per .gov contracts, but it is a policy, not a law.

Now, there are laws about felons possessing body armor (and IIRC, that law was just thrown out for vagueness) , but that doesn't apply to the public at large.

ZRX61
01-03-2010, 7:25 PM
okee doke, thanks. Guess I got further with this thread than the one that vaporized..

Jpach
01-03-2010, 10:02 PM
Why dont we make ceramic knuckles? Would those be legal?

MrClamperSir
01-03-2010, 10:05 PM
Brass/Composite knuckles have no legitimate purpose other that to cause or increase injury, that is why they are illegal. They are ineffective in a self defense situation.

I would disagree. They can be used in defense as a "leveler" to the playing field if accosted by a larger aggressor.

skylovia
01-04-2010, 11:48 AM
I agree this is a ridiculous new law, but if you want something for personal defense, just carry around a pocket knife. My Kershaw Skyline comes with me wherever i go. Hell, you could even get yourself an assisted opening knife.

Shawn L
01-08-2010, 10:43 AM
I was just in the Oakley store in Rancho and they had like 3 pairs of their Assault gloves on the rack. Are these good to go, or is the Oakley store messing up?

AJAX22
01-08-2010, 10:52 AM
Brass/Composite knuckles have no legitimate purpose other that to cause or increase injury, that is why they are illegal. They are ineffective in a self defense situation.

Get yourself some GOOD pepper spray. It is totally legal and you don't have to make physical contact with your attacker. Don't but the junk they sell at car washed, gas stations, etc. Go to a LE supplier and get the same stuff we carry. Trust me, it works.

And yes, I will bust someone for knuckles 99.8% of the time. You've got to really convince me not to.

You're wrong. brass knuckles are great as a self defense tool. They are very very effective.... particularly against curbing overly aggressive drunk males with high pain tolerances.

Pepper spray is horrible for self defense in close quarters, particularly if there are two or more people... you always manage to get some in your own eyes. and then you can't see and the guy who was farther away than his buddy CAN see.

knuckles are more effective than a knife for stopping fights.... it has a much stronger psychological deterrent. and they typically don't do permanent damage like a knife/gun does.

SteveH
01-08-2010, 11:24 AM
I was just in the Oakley store in Rancho and they had like 3 pairs of their Assault gloves on the rack. Are these good to go, or is the Oakley store messing up?

Seriously? You guys dont know this by now? The very first thing you need to know about CPC 12020 is....

The manner in which it is used defines the tool.

Gloves are just gloves until they are used as composit knuckles. Tell the cops you are carrying them for self defense and you will go to jail. Use them to assault some dumpster divers they will be an add on charge. Use them as shooting gloves and you have no problems. The manner in which it is used defines the tool.