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pepsi2451
12-27-2009, 2:25 PM
I recently purchased an AR15 and when I went to pick it up I was told I need proof of residency, is that right?

I offered my CCW as proof but they said they couldn't accept that. They ended up letting me use a bank statement.

I thought proof if residency was only for handguns and a bank statement wasn't acceptable proof. Am I wrong? Are there different requirements for long guns? Anyone know the penal code?

Also I seem to remember reading that its illegal for a dealer to missrepresent their fees as state fees. Does anyone know the relevant penal code?

I got a lot of fud when I picked up that rifle. I would like to take in the penal code and give the FFL one more chance since they are the only gun shop in the area.

Gio
12-27-2009, 2:30 PM
Only handguns need a Secondary Proof of Residency.

-Gio

halifax
12-27-2009, 2:30 PM
If the address you put on the 4473 doesn't match the address on your DL, you'd need to provide Alternate Documentation to satisfy the feds. A CCW should work fine, after all it is government issued and has a term of validity, much better than a bank statement which I don't think is acceptable.

What fees are being misrepresented?

pepsi2451
12-27-2009, 2:56 PM
If the address you put on the 4473 doesn't match the address on your DL, you'd need to provide Alternate Documentation to satisfy the feds. A CCW should work fine, after all it is government issued and has a term of validity, much better than a bank statement which I don't think is acceptable.

What fees are being misrepresented?

My address matched. I didn't think a bank statement was acceptable either. Its strange they even asked since I was picking up a rifle.

When I got home I noticed my receipt said "DOJ Transfer $35" this was in addition to the $100 "dealer fee." I asked about it when I picked it up and she said $25 was for the DOJ and $10 was a "paperwork fee."

Normally it wouldn't be a big deal but I feel like I was overcharged for the dealer fee. Its my fault for not asking how much it was going to be before I ordered the rifle but for $110 you would think she would at least know the laws.

I don't want to get anyone in trouble or anything. Its the only gun shop in town and the woman that owns it must be 80. I just want to try to educate them.

halifax
12-27-2009, 3:03 PM
Too bad, but it sounds like this dealer is not interested in keeping up with the laws. She's probably been doing it her way forever and has no reason to change now.

lorax3
12-27-2009, 3:11 PM
That is not okay. I have no issues if that shop charged you 500 bucks to transfer a gun in, but they cannot misrepresent their own fees as state fees.

Did you buy this gun online and have it transferred in? Did you buy it directly from the shop, or from another person who met you in the shop to do the transfer?

I would give them a call and ask them if the 'paperwork fee' is a state fee or their own personal fee. If they say it is a fee that is collected by the state you need to ask for your ten bucks back.

If they refuse to give it let them know you will call the DOJ and let them know that this shop is charging money misrepresented as a state fee for their own pocket.

A similar thread came up about a month ago with a 10$ 'paperwork' state fee, I wonder if it was the same store. I rarely get upset about this kind of stuff, but I dislike when FFL's mislead their customers. We are all on the same side here!

pepsi2451
12-27-2009, 3:24 PM
Too bad, but it sounds like this dealer is not interested in keeping up with the laws. She's probably been doing it her way forever and has no reason to change now.

Actually a few years ago when I bought my AK receiver I went to another gun shop (closed now) and a sporting goods shop (also closed) and they wouldn't touch it. They wouldn't even listen to me at all, the guy at the gun shop was pretty rude to me actually. I can see why they didn't listen to a 20 year old coming in there trying to tell them an AK is legal but she did listen to me. She said she would need something in writing from the DOJ and when I got home I found the DOJ had just posted one of their memos saying it was legal (I think they were still saying the mag locks where illegal). She read it and said she didn't know why I would want an AK with no pistol grip but she agreed to transfer it. She only charged me $25 and $25 DOJ transfer for that.

I think she gets all the bad information from the DOJ. When I picked up my AR she said someone from the DOJ had been in there and said to make sure the mag stays in the AR (bullet button) because as soon as its removed its an AW (this was a couple weeks ago). So that created the problem of how to lock it without removing the mag. I told her I was pretty sure that it didn't actually have to be locked, I just had to buy a lock. At first she wouldn't go for it and said the guy from the DOJ said it has to be locked when it leaves the store. I offered to removed the upper then remove the mag so I could lock it through the mag well but she wouldn't go for that either. Finally she just gave me a free child safe lock and let me leave without locking it.

pepsi2451
12-27-2009, 3:32 PM
That is not okay. I have no issues if that shop charged you 500 bucks to transfer a gun in, but they cannot misrepresent their own fees as state fees.

Did you buy this gun online and have it transferred in? Did you buy it directly from the shop, or from another person who met you in the shop to do the transfer?

I would give them a call and ask them if the 'paperwork fee' is a state fee or their own personal fee. If they say it is a fee that is collected by the state you need to ask for your ten bucks back.

If they refuse to give it let them know you will call the DOJ and let them know that this shop is charging money misrepresented as a state fee for their own pocket.

A similar thread came up about a month ago with a 10$ 'paperwork' state fee, I wonder if it was the same store. I rarely get upset about this kind of stuff, but I dislike when FFL's mislead their customers. We are all on the same side here!

That was probably my thread from a couple weeks ago. I was just going to stop shopping there but then I decided I would give them one more chance and try to educate them. I don't want to report them to the DOJ or anything. I really think they just don't know the laws. I'm guessing they probably talked to the DOJ about PPTs and thats where the $35 transfer came from.

Do you know where I could find the relevant penal code about misrepresenting fees?

ETA - It was an out of state transfer. I bought a DDXV from peachstateguns.com.

Alex$
12-27-2009, 3:43 PM
I think you missed the question:

"Did you buy this gun online and have it transferred in? Did you buy it directly from the shop, or from another person who met you in the shop to do the transfer?"

If you purchased it PPT the only fee they can charge is $35.00, 25.00 for state and 10.00 for the shop. Anything beyond that it is a clear violation and they should be slapped.

If, on the other hand, you ordered it online and transferred it through this dealer then they can charge you whatever you agree to.

pepsi2451
12-27-2009, 4:19 PM
I think you missed the question:

"Did you buy this gun online and have it transferred in? Did you buy it directly from the shop, or from another person who met you in the shop to do the transfer?"

If you purchased it PPT the only fee they can charge is $35.00, 25.00 for state and 10.00 for the shop. Anything beyond that it is a clear violation and they should be slapped.

If, on the other hand, you ordered it online and transferred it through this dealer then they can charge you whatever you agree to.

I bought it online. I know they can charge whatever they want but from what I have heard on here its illegal for them to misrepresent their fees as state fees. My receipt says Dealer fee $100, DOJ transfer $35. I have no problem with the dealer fee (other then it is way higher then I expected) but the DOJ transfer should only be $25. I can't seem to find the penal code though.

ke6guj
12-27-2009, 4:51 PM
. I have no problem with the dealer fee (other then it is way higher then I expected) but the DOJ transfer should only be $25. I can't seem to find the penal code though.


17.What fees can I charge in addition to the DROS?
In addition to the State's $19.00 DROS fee, you must also charge a $1.00 Firearms Safety Testing fee and a $5.00 Safety and Enforcement fee. If the transaction being processed is a dealer sale, consignment return, or return from pawn, you may impose other charges as long as this amount is clearly shown as a "dealer fee" and not misrepresented as a State fee.

(PC sections 12071(b)(11), (12))
which references the following PC.

12071(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements:
(11) The licensee shall post conspicuously within the licensed premises a detailed list of each of the following:
(A) All charges required by governmental agencies for processing firearm transfers required by Sections 12076, 12082, and 12806.
(B) All fees that the licensee charges pursuant to Sections 12082 and 12806.
(12) The licensee shall not misstate the amount of fees charged by a governmental agency pursuant to Sections 12076, 12082, and 12806.

bigcalidave
12-27-2009, 5:31 PM
The DROS is $25, the max they can charge for a ppt transaction above that is $10, but that is a store charge, not government. The TRANSFER fee can be whatever.
I don't understand how people, members of this forum, continue to pay $100 transfer fees. You have been a member here for over 3 years, with 500+ posts. Before you made the latest purchase why didn't you AT LEAST post somewhere what you should expect, or ask if ANY forum members were transfer dealers in your area? If you don't have a friendly FFL nearby charging less than $40-50 for a transfer, you should find one. When you call a dealer and ask ahead of time about their transfer fees, if they say $100, you should be telling them thanks but no thanks, I'll go somewhere else. Maybe dealers will learn.

pepsi2451
12-27-2009, 5:46 PM
The DROS is $25, the max they can charge for a normal (inventory or ppt) transaction above that is $10, but that is a store charge, not government. The TRANSFER fee can be whatever.
I don't understand how people, members of this forum, continue to pay $100 transfer fees. You have been a member here for over 3 years, with 500+ posts. Before you made the latest purchase why didn't you AT LEAST post somewhere what you should expect, or ask if ANY forum members were transfer dealers in your area? If you don't have a friendly FFL nearby charging less than $40-50 for a transfer, you should find one. When you call a dealer and ask ahead of time about their transfer fees, if they say $100, you should be telling them thanks but no thanks, I'll go somewhere else. Maybe dealers will learn.

Well I was going to ask what she charged when I went in and talked to her about transferring it for me but I forgot. She said something like "I do have a fee for doing this" then someone else in the store asked me something and I forgot to ask how much. When I got home I realized I forgot to ask but I figured since she only charged me $25 when she transfered my AK receiver she would be reasonable so I just went ahead and ordered it. I won't make that mistake again.

The next closest FFL that I know does transfers is about a 2 hour drive away.

pepsi2451
12-27-2009, 5:48 PM
which references the following PC.

Thanks, I never would have thought of looking at the DOJ site for firearms info.;)

bigcalidave
12-27-2009, 5:51 PM
I can't imagine that there isn't a transfer FFL on here in crescent city or even arcata / eureka. I know gun shops SUCK out there on the coast, but they can only continue doing business like that if people let them. Tell the old lady what your problem is, and that you would like to continue doing business with her but won't buy ANYTHING there if she doesn't get reasonable with her fees. Or just keep paying them and don't complain about it :)

RP1911
12-27-2009, 5:51 PM
Next time, go to this link and type in your zipcode

http://www.gunbroker.com/FFL/DealerNetwork.aspx and see if you have any FFLs in your area willing to do transfers.

bigcalidave
12-27-2009, 5:54 PM
From that link

David Smith
Del Norte Pawn & Jewelry
307 South Hwy 101
Crescent City, CA 95531
Email: Click here to email me

Phone: 707-464-8148
Fax: 707-465-3438
Hours: 10:00am-6:00pm Mon-Sat, 11:00am-3:00pm Sun

Other Fee: 7.25% Sales Tax + $25.00 DROS + $35.00 Srvc

I hope that means $35 transfer fee, That's a good deal :) Call them and ask.

ke6guj
12-27-2009, 6:17 PM
The DROS is $25, the max they can charge for a normal (inventory or ppt) transaction above that is $10, but that is a store charge, not government. The TRANSFER fee can be whatever.
post the PC that states that the max they can charge for a normal transaction is $10.



From that link


I hope that means $35 transfer fee, or they are breaking the law. Call them!once again, post the PC that limits the fees that a dealer may charge for any non-PPT transfer. Or, post the PC that states that a dealer may even charge a TRANSFER FEE.

pepsi2451
12-27-2009, 6:17 PM
From that link


I hope that means $35 transfer fee, or they are breaking the law. Call them!

They must not update that list very often. I went there years ago when I bought a P226 on gun broker, they don't do transfers anymore.

Like I said I wouldn't have gone there if I knew she was going to charge that much. Its my fault for not asking, I'm not complaining, I just want to point out the laws to them. If they apologize and give back my $10 I might give them another chance, not for transfers though, I'm not paying that much again. Thanks for the info, I would have went somewhere else if I knew it was going to cost that much.

bigcalidave
12-27-2009, 6:30 PM
Ok, you're right, it was only for PPT. I wouldn't shop at a store that charged a FEE to buy something they were selling. Would you?
But assuming that since it is a gunbroker post, they mean transfer fee, it's a good deal. If it's a "service" fee on every gun they sell, I hope nobody buys from them.

ke6guj
12-27-2009, 6:58 PM
Ok, you're right, it was only for PPT. I wouldn't shop at a store that charged a FEE to buy something they were selling. Would you?
But assuming that since it is a gunbroker post, they mean transfer fee, it's a good deal. If it's a "service" fee on every gun they sell, I hope nobody buys from them.

yes, I have purchased from a store that included a dealer fee for items that are sold from inventory. Turners charges a $10 dealer fee, properly noted on the receipt, when they sell a firearm. To me, it is no different than if they just marked up the price of the firearm $10 since I make the effort to compute an out-the-door price, and that is what matters to me.

bigcalidave
12-27-2009, 7:20 PM
I'd tell em to shove it. Personally. Even my shady local pawn shop ONLY charges $25 DROS. Nothing else. Last time I bought from them was special order AND layaway. $25 over the sticker price for DROS.

tenpercentfirearms
12-27-2009, 7:51 PM
Back to the original questions: If your DL matches your 4473 address, no additional proof of residency is required by the feds, but by the state in the case of a handgun. So you should not have needed secondary proof of address.

However, had your address not matched, then you would have been required to show a government issued document. A banking bill is not a government issued document. Your CCW is.

If their paperwork says $35 DOJ fee, they are violating the penal code. They need to itemize it into a $25 DOJ fee (my receipts are clear, $25 DROS) and a $10 paperwork fee. I find it is better to just mark up your products $10. People hate paying extra fees. Better yet, mark it up $50 and then give them a $25 "good guy" break!

Theseus
12-27-2009, 9:35 PM
I recently PPT'ed as a seller was asked to provide proof of residence as well. . . never heard of such as a seller. . .

I have found that it is better to find a good dealer and negotiate price before you even buy online. Once it is in their hands or shipped to them there is little power you have.

chucksolo69
12-28-2009, 9:20 AM
It is not required although, the last long gun I bought at my local gun range, they asked me to bring a utility bill as proof of residency. I asked them why and they said that they make it policy to ask for this on ANY firearms purchase. I balked though and they just used the one I had given them when I bought my last pistol from them. It seems they require this of the employees just so that they are uniform in the procedure and no one forgets to get the second POR when a handgun is purchased.

pepsi2451
12-28-2009, 12:04 PM
It is not required although, the last long gun I bought at my local gun range, they asked me to bring a utility bill as proof of residency. I asked them why and they said that they make it policy to ask for this on ANY firearms purchase. I balked though and they just used the one I had given them when I bought my last pistol from them. It seems they require this of the employees just so that they are uniform in the procedure and no one forgets to get the second POR when a handgun is purchased.

That makes sense but in my case they wouldn't take my CCW but they would take a bank statement. From what I can tell it looks like a bank statement doesn't cut it for a handgun.

tenpercentfirearms
12-29-2009, 7:55 AM
That makes sense but in my case they wouldn't take my CCW but they would take a bank statement. From what I can tell it looks like a bank statement doesn't cut it for a handgun.

A bank statement doesn't cut it for any of the government agencies. Maybe it is a company policy. :rolleyes:

pepsi2451
12-29-2009, 9:38 AM
A bank statement doesn't cut it for any of the government agencies. Maybe it is a company policy. :rolleyes:

Not a company, its just a small shop ran by an 80 year old woman thats only open 3-4 hours a day 4 days a week. I really think they just don't know the laws so they want proof of residency for everything. You would think if they were using bank statements for handguns the DOJ would have noticed by now, right?

I'm gonna try to stop in there and talk to her tomorrow.

gzinga
12-29-2009, 1:06 PM
if you have a green card you do need 3 months of bills, if you are a citizen you do not, just a DL....