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View Full Version : Transporting an AR-15 with a .22 conversion


team5150
12-27-2009, 12:19 PM
If a person were to be transporting an AR-15 with a BB and some of the the "evil features" listed in PC 12276.1 (a) but instead of the .223 bolt & carrier they have a CMMG .22 LR bolt and carrier conversion unit installed in the rifle - wouldn't that negate the question of whether or not you had an AW (in the LEO's eyes) because it is not a centerfire rifle as defined in PC 12276 ?

Would this be a "safer" way of transporting the rifle so that if a person were stopped and questioned about the rifle it is a rimfire .22 not a centerfire .223.

383green
12-27-2009, 12:49 PM
It's already not an AW with the regular bolt carrier group installed, and it looks like a listed "AR series" weapon in either case to an officer who doesn't know about things like bullet buttons, and thus probably also doesn't know that Harrott invalidated the "AR Series" language. And if that officer is ignorant enough to not know about Harrott, OLLs, BBs, etc., what makes you think that they would treat the configuration that you suggest as a rimfire rifle, as opposed to an AW with a rimfire conversion installed in it?

I wouldn't bother with this. If you're legal then you're legal, and if an officer who's ignorant and/or on a power trip decides to ruin your day with improper AW charges, they'll find a way to do it no matter what.

Blue
12-27-2009, 12:57 PM
I wouldnt even bother with that these days, but if thats what you've gotta tell your wife so you can order a 22lr kit, then go for it :p

wildhawker
12-27-2009, 1:37 PM
Why not keep the rifle in the trunk or in a nondescript locked container that is not open to search without PC or a warrant and not give consent to a search? As an additional layer of preparation, keep copies of the Flowchart with the firearm and in your glove box for expeditious access to this information. Lastly, never speak without your lawyer present and immediately call CGF for assistance.

lorax3
12-27-2009, 2:44 PM
Only if the LEO was aware of the centerfire requirement for rifles in 12276.1

This is something I would like to see in future revisions of the flowchart. The ability to cover all rifles and not just semi-auto centerfire ones. It would not take that many more steps.

They have been issued memo's on the bullet button, but may get confused with rimfire AR/AK type rifles that have detachable magazines and prohibited features. They may just recall from the memo, 'Bullet button = good to go'. This is even more important as the .22 AR clones are now being sold big box sporting good chains and will be seen in the wild on a more regular basis.

wildhawker
12-27-2009, 3:25 PM
Good points, Lorax- we'll address these in a revision coming soon.

bodger
12-27-2009, 3:28 PM
Why not keep the rifle in the trunk or in a nondescript locked container that is not open to search without PC or a warrant and not give consent to a search? As an additional layer of preparation, keep copies of the Flowchart with the firearm and in your glove box for expeditious access to this information. Lastly, never speak without your lawyer present and immediately call CGF for assistance.



That's it right there.

If your firearms are legal, and secured (locked) out of sight, the cops will have to be the ones who break the law if they get at them. And even then, you don't have to say anything.

CGF clears it up.

SteveH
12-27-2009, 3:32 PM
That's it right there.

If your firearms are legal, and secured (locked) out of sight, the cops will have to be the ones who break the law if they get at them. And even then, you don't have to say anything.

CGF clears it up.

When does a semi-automatic ceterfire rifle (assume the lower is marked 5.56mm and the Brl is marked 5.56mm as well) lose that status? when a 22 conversion kit is installed or is it still a semi automatic centerfire even with a temporary conversion kit?

bodger
12-27-2009, 3:45 PM
When does a semi-automatic ceterfire rifle (assume the lower is marked 5.56mm and the Brl is marked 5.56mm as well) lose that status? when a 22 conversion kit is installed or is it still a semi automatic centerfire even with a temporary conversion kit?


Someone better informed than me will weigh in I'm sure, but I believe if you have a .22 kit on there, it's a rimfire rifle at that point and nothing more.

SteveH
12-27-2009, 3:47 PM
Someone better informed than me will weigh in I'm sure, but I believe if you have a .22 upper on there, it's a rimfire rifle at that point and nothing more.

A multi marked lower and a dedicated rimfire upper is clearly a rimfire.

I was wondering more along the lines of a complete 5.56mm factory rifle modified only with a drop in .22LR conversion kit. Is it a rimfire or a centerfire?

wildhawker
12-27-2009, 3:57 PM
Steve, you answered your own question.

It's either a centerfire, semi-auto or not.

team5150
12-27-2009, 4:01 PM
I was wondering more along the lines of a complete 5.56mm factory rifle modified only with a drop in .22LR conversion kit. Is it a rimfire or a centerfire?

That's basically where I was going - which is it ?

We need one of the T shirt guys to make up shirts with the flow chart on the front of them for when you transport your rifle !

wildhawker
12-27-2009, 5:04 PM
We could produce the flowchart (or most of it) on a white tee, although white has historically been a poor seller for us.

As to your inquiry regarding rimfire status, see my earlier posts above.

pgg
12-27-2009, 5:11 PM
I was wondering more along the lines of a complete 5.56mm factory rifle modified only with a drop in .22LR conversion kit. Is it a rimfire or a centerfire?

I wrote to the California DOJ asking this exact question, and they never responded. I know they got the letter, because it was in the same envelope as a check and registration forms for two other firearms; they cashed the check, processed the forms, and sent me a receipt.

It's frustrating to deal with those clowns when they refuse to even acknowledge questions like this.

bodger
12-27-2009, 5:11 PM
Someone better informed than me will weigh in I'm sure, but I believe if you have a .22 kit on there, it's a rimfire rifle at that point and nothing more.

A multi marked lower and a dedicated rimfire upper is clearly a rimfire.

I was wondering more along the lines of a complete 5.56mm factory rifle modified only with a drop in .22LR conversion kit. Is it a rimfire or a centerfire?



You grabbed my quote right before I changed "upper" to "kit". :)

But as Wildhawker pointed out, if it fires rimfire ammo, it's not centerfire.

Amacias805
12-28-2009, 12:50 AM
if your that worried about it, separate the upper and the lower!

Spaceghost
12-28-2009, 12:29 PM
This.


if your that worried about it, separate the upper and the lower!

pinkmist.308
02-16-2010, 10:32 PM
I posted this elsewhere. I'm gonna copy and paste my comments in all three. This exact topic is also in the centerfire forum under "BB ar using cmmg .22 conversion" and in the rimfire forum under ".22 ar conversion legal with evil features".



I have been wondering the same thing about the legal implications of using a .22 conversion unit in a .223/5.56 stamped upper. Everyone (and I have noticed it on the wiki FAQ) says the same thing. That is, that an off list lower with a pistol grip, collapsing stock and no bullet button attached to a .223/5.56 stamped upper with a .22 conversion kit installed would be a legal configuration. Additionally, one could use their high capacity .22 magazines as well.

I think its worth noting that before removing the bb from a fixed magazine build with features, the upper and lower should be separated, the bb/mag lock removed and the conversion kit installed before reassembling the firearm. That being said, in a matter of seconds, one could remove the conversion kit and replace the .223/5.56 bolt and carrier thus creating an assault weapon. I think this could be “tempting bait” for law enforcement. It goes without saying that one could also manufacture and assault weapon in a fraction of a second simply by inserting a high cap mag in a bb equipped rifle.

I looked into this .22 conversion option in 1999 as a work around so I wouldn’t have to register my AR. To my understanding, it would not have worked back then because of the series wording in the law and the receiver itself was considered an assault weapon. If it looked like an AR and it quacked like an AR……it was an AR. So I registered my lower.

Now, however, the circumstances are different and this configuration, on its face, seems that it could indeed be quite legal. When I go shooting with my oll I have lots of supporting documentation: oll guide, DOJ memo/letters, penal codes, etc. If contacted by an LEO at the range I don’t plan to engage him or her in conversation. I will just produce the relevant documentation.

Can anyone direct me to penal codes, ATF/DOJ documentation & interpretations, case law, etc. I personally would not proceed with this rifle configuration without such supporting documentation to show an LEO. I’m conservative that way and don’t feel like being arrested and possibly loosing my right to own a firearm……especially when I can just use the .22 with my RAW.

Documentation to consider: ATF/DOJ position on conversion kits and the legal reclassification of a firearm. Drop in auto sears and the reclassification of firearms. Does the conversion need to be permanent or require the use of tools?

I’m sure there are many aspects to this that I have not thought of. Sorry so long. Any help I could get on building a solid foundation of documentation to persuade an LEO that my rifle is indeed configured legally with the .22 conversion unit, no bb and high cap mags in the well would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

pinkmist.308
02-22-2010, 12:10 AM
CGF Board Member, NRA Patron Member and CRPA Life Member Bill Wiese (bwiese) was kind enough to share his expertise and time on this thread topic.

He definitively answered the question as far as I am personally concerned.

His comments (post numbers 23 & 24) are very much on topic and specifically respond to my post (numbers 19 & 22).

Check it out if you are interested in more detail about the legality of using a .22 conversion unit in a 556 barreled upper and no bb.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=257795&page=3

If the link didn’t work just go to the Rimfire Forum; “22LR AR-15 conversion legal with evil features”.