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View Full Version : ""NO Sales to California"" FUD or Truth


Tankhatch
12-26-2009, 4:56 PM
Got a question for all you non-California FFL's,, whom are listing on gun auctions, rifles with the ""NO Sales to California"" motif.

Is it getting the Firearms Shipment Approval number from the Kalifornia DOJ BOF, thats scaring you ?

Is it getting the Firearms Shipment Approval number from the Kalifornia DOJ BOF, thats a pain in the ***** to get ?

Is it getting the Firearms Shipment Approval number from the Kalifornia DOJ BOF, to simple / stupid to waste time playing with ?

Is it because, once a firearm gets here, its a 10 day wait, before the new owner can get it "in hand" to a see if a refund is needed ? (aka the normal 3 day trial period cannot work as the rifle is sitting in a dealers safe)

Or is it just FUD, (aka The other dealer does not send to California, so why should I)

This Kalifornia law is about a year old,,,, and I'm seeing this ""NO Sales to California"" appear on more and more auction listings.

I cant wait till the law is a few years old,,, at the rate above,,, no body will sell to Kalifornians, any long arms.

I can understand to clearly, the merky water with handguns,,,, but with rifles, shotguns, beltfeds. ?? (see the well posted Calguns LEO flow chart for what is a AW)

FAQ; (DOJ BOF) Getting a Firearms Shipment Approval number.

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/cflcfaqs.php

Overview; (DOJ BOF)

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/cflcoverview.php

Flow chart for what is / whats not a AW

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Interactive Flow Chart;

http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi

Handgun Flow Chart;

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/hgflowchart.pdf

Shotgun Flow chart;

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf

1919_4_ME
12-26-2009, 5:16 PM
From what I've have seen and heard outside of California its because they are "teaching" Californians a lesson for letting there state gov't get out of control thus the reason why they will not sell to Californians. You can tell them all you want how its legal and this and that and they still will not sell to a CA resident no matter what you say, that's how pissed people are towards Californians. The hate goes very deep and if you ever move out of state don't advertise your from California...;) Hopefully they will see the light someday though...:chris:

Tankhatch
12-26-2009, 5:42 PM
It will be a lesson learned,,,,,, by the anti's.

freakshow10mm
12-26-2009, 5:43 PM
Some will wise up. Those that don't aren't worth your money. Those that continue to do business with California will be rewarded.

TRICKSTER
12-26-2009, 6:05 PM
Yep, there going to teach those anti-gun California liberals who don't want guns in California a lesson by refusing to send guns to California.

You don't want guns in California, I'll teach you, I won't send you any, so there.

"Morons. I've got morons on my team"
Percy Garris:Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969)

SIGarette
12-26-2009, 9:45 PM
Whatever their motive, the effect is the same as throwing an anchor to a drowning man.
I have a hard time believing that gun loving folks outside of California are just being smug; that, in my estimation, would make them bigger jerks than the anti-gun idiots.

IrishPirate
12-26-2009, 9:49 PM
Some will wise up. Those that don't aren't worth your money. Those that continue to do business with California will be rewarded.

+1000

yzernie
12-26-2009, 11:12 PM
Some will wise up. Those that don't aren't worth your money. Those that continue to do business with California will be rewarded.
Excellent comment. And those that do sell to Cali are the ones making the money. The non-sellers can watch their future profits go to someone who decided to spend 10 minutes registering and then selling/shipping guns to customers here.

Rob454
12-27-2009, 7:49 AM
From what I've have seen and heard outside of California its because they are "teaching" Californians a lesson for letting there state gov't get out of control thus the reason why they will not sell to Californians. You can tell them all you want how its legal and this and that and they still will not sell to a CA resident no matter what you say, that's how pissed people are towards Californians. The hate goes very deep and if you ever move out of state don't advertise your from California...;) Hopefully they will see the light someday though...:chris:


They have the right to sell to whoever they want to. Its stupid but hey you also have the right to lose a few hundred thousand in sales cause youre a complete idiot also. As for teaching us a lesson, THEY are not teaching us anything since there are FFLs who will deal with california. Sure we pay inflated rates and its known you can gouge cali a little more. I wonder if they have the same "rules" abotu selling to NJ or NY or other states with stickt gun laws like cali?
As for moving out of state and advertising iM from california to tell you the truth what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? So what if im from california? You gonna refuse to sell to me when i become a resident of your state? gonna refuse to allow me entry to your store? LOL retards like that are the best ones to teach a lesson to. There are plenty of people from other states coming here and we have little to no animosity towards them.
last i checked we were all part of the same country

bshnt2015
12-27-2009, 8:42 AM
My experience in dealing with out of state FFL dealers, I hear them blame it on paper work-confusion at the state/federal level and restrictions on hi-cap mags, AR parts, etc. So perhaps it's "I don't want to deal with a state that's restrictive" mentality.

kemasa
12-27-2009, 9:27 AM
It is interesting to see a change in view when you talk to the "no sales to CA" people and tell them that they are doing exactly what the anti-gun people want. It does not always work, but often it does.

1919_4_ME
12-27-2009, 12:04 PM
Yea I think slowly they will start to see the light and get with the program "eventually" and until then its like talking to wall with some of them as they don't care if its legal. Heck I've seen where people outside of CA advertise they will not sell to California, uppers, knives, parts kits, projos, smoke dischargers, inert ordnance, and everything else under the sun. They know California has so many goofy laws that they don't want to bother looking to see if its legal or not and just say "No CA sales" and its not about them losing money, they dont care. I ordered part for a rifle one time and got and e-mail back from the guy selling in texas and he wrote back "I wouldn't ship a squirt gun to you guys". and that was it never heard back from him.:rolleyes:

kemasa
12-27-2009, 12:12 PM
I think the only way for them to see the light is when they see that they are doing exactly what the anti-gun people want. You can talk about what is legal and day and night and it won't make an impression, often, they just don't want to get grouped with the anti-gun people and that is really the crowd that they are in when they refuse to ship to CA.

There are distributors who refused to honor the high capacity magazine permits.

While there are many bad things in CA, the property tax limits are not one of them. In other states, people can get taxed out of their homes. A friend is paying much more property tax in PA for a cheaper house than I am paying in CA. He thought it was expensive to live in CA until he moved to PA.

1919_4_ME
12-27-2009, 12:55 PM
Heres a fine example of what I am talking about, he don't care if its legal without the belt...:rolleyes:

Pay attention to post #10
http://1919a4.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=29516

Colt-45
12-27-2009, 3:21 PM
Those who take the extra time to read through the laws or the resources available here on calguns are the ones making the profits. That CFL registration is a bunch of meaningless BS, It's already a transaction between an FFL and FFL I don't see what the point of the extra bureaucracy is. Things tend to be more expensive here in California and guns aren't the exception. They can make a few extra bucks shipping to California than they would if they sold it back home and we still get the item cheaper than it is here.

A good example is when we got our 5-7. In Fresno it was 1300+tax+dros. We got ours from an FFL guy in Idaho for 900+shipping+dros+ffl fee which was $90 (ffl fee on the more expensive end but still). We ended up saving over 300 dollars.

Some guys are insecure when shipping some items that seem "risky" but aren't, and I don't blame them, they value their FFL and their job. Once they know of someone else that's doing it and hasn't gone in trouble they hop on the band wagon. It's mostly the older guys that are hard to convince.

midvalleyshooter
12-27-2009, 3:32 PM
I have yet to want something that one of the anti-California FFL had that I could not find from a California friendly FFL.

STI is about the biggest name thats refuses California:
http://www.stiguns.com/CA-PressRelease.pdf

While I respect their right to do what they do, I think they are helping the gungrabbers and hurting gun enthusiasts in California.

Keith

TRICKSTER
12-27-2009, 5:28 PM
I have yet to want something that one of the anti-California FFL had that I could not find from a California friendly FFL.

STI is about the biggest name thats refuses California:
http://www.stiguns.com/CA-PressRelease.pdf

While I respect their right to do what they do, I think they are helping the gungrabbers and hurting gun enthusiasts in California.

Keith

This is just plain stupid. The micro-stamping bill has not, and probably never will, be enacted. They have played right into the hands of the gun grabbers.

Fot
12-27-2009, 5:31 PM
My fav is when you see California sellers who refuse to sell an item in CA. I see that from time to time on Gunbroker.

Rob454
12-27-2009, 6:08 PM
I guess everyone is allowed to be a idiot if they want to

kemasa
12-28-2009, 12:32 PM
There are firearms which can only be sold to LEOs in CA and a CA FFL may have it, so they can not sell it to anyone who is not exempt. There are also those who seem to be making money by not following the law, which then causes problems with those who do follow the law since customers don't always care why one FFL will do something and others will not.

One thing that I like is that if a company won't pay the money to be able to sell firearms in CA is that they also refuse to sell to LEOs or to CA. I think it is funny that Barrett refuses to ship the LAPD rifles back (or at least the last time I heard about it).

TripleT
12-29-2009, 10:40 AM
A lot of Vendors and FFL's that won't ship to CA misinterpret what Ronnie Barrett did and think they are somehow "teaching us a lesson" for allowing our gun laws to be passed, thinking (or not thinking) that we are the place where bad law propagates from.

IIRC, Mr. Barrett had in his shop a couple of .50 cal rifles, from LAPD, for repair about the time the .50 cal ban was being passed. The LAPD chief went on record supporting the ban and when it passed Mr. Barrett told the LAPD that he could not ship his rifles back to them and to come and get them if they wanted them back. Mr. Barrett made a point of telling LAPD that the new ban was an infringement on the 2nd amendment. Or something like that...

Chris M
12-29-2009, 10:48 AM
The micro-stamping bill has not, and probably never will, be enacted.

According to the Brady Bunch (http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/gunlaws/CA), it has.

Microstamping
Must new handguns be sold with microstamping technology? Yes
California - State law requires that, starting in 2009, all new semi-automatic handgun models sold in the state be fitted with microstamping technology. Microstamping engraves on each fired bullet casing microscopic identifying markings that are specific to that firearm alone. This technology provides law enforcement with another investigative tool to better solve gun crimes and apprehend armed criminals.

TripleT
12-29-2009, 10:53 AM
According to the Brady Bunch (http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/gunlaws/CA), it has.

Yup, Brady Campaign is just a wealth of good information. :rolleyes: I think Webster's should use the link to the brady website as a definition for FUD...

GammaRei
12-29-2009, 11:14 AM
According to the Brady Bunch (http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/gunlaws/CA), it has.

I think its a good time for a lawsuit. . .

- G

Chris M
12-29-2009, 11:15 AM
It's probably best to let them continue to believe that the law exists. It's one less law that they'll try to get passed.

prebans
12-29-2009, 11:23 AM
Hi from an out-of-state FFL/SOT!

I'm on here and I welcome orders from Californians. While California's rules are beyond annoying and it takes more time to keep an eye on than most other states, I'm happy to help you get anything you legally can. It's like that in ALL of my sales; CA OK!

C&R? All day long!
10 round mags? Sure!
Magazine rebuild kits? Yup!
Handguns that meet regs? Absolutely!
Rifles that don't scare CAL DOJ? You name it!
Shotguns that don't run afoul of anything? Damn skippy!
NFA Weapons? You're good for C&R SBRs, C&R SBSes, and AOWs without much trouble (MGs and DDs with some trouble)!

Now, here's a complaint for the OP. While I will GLADLY ship/sell/send ANYTHING that's legal into CA, sometimes I need to check the law. I do this by asking on boards with Californians. But instead of friendly help, sometimes I get snotty answers or people hollering at me for not knowing.

I'm trying to work within a system that's purposefully unfriendly and that doesn't exist in 49 other states. In exchange for the excess BS, it'd be nice not to get hollered at.

Is it too much to ask that, in exchange for jumping through those hoops, that I not get yelled at for being sure that something's legal?

I'll make this deal to anybody-- help me, and I'll help you!

Respectfully submitted,

Mike
Distinction Arms, FFL/SOT

kemasa
12-29-2009, 11:32 AM
One thing to consider is that the CA FFL is responsible for following the law with regards to any transfers. While it is a good idea to ensure that the person knows if the firearm is on the certified list or not, if the person is exempt or if the FFL intends to sell it outside of CA there is no problem. The main thing to check is that the CA FFL is ok with what is being shipped.

A CA FFL can get a high capacity permit, so with that the magazine size does not matter. Sometimes the FFL has to get a firearm with high capacity magazines since that is all that is available and then swap out the magazines before it is transferred to the person.

It would be nice if people could ask questions without the bad responses, but I doubt that will ever happen since you are dealing with humans and due to the type of interaction, people feel that they can be rude. You see that on the road too.

Part of the people is that people also get annoyed with the same questions again and again, which is not a good excuse, but it happens.

Chris M
12-29-2009, 11:39 AM
Now, here's a complaint for the OP. While I will GLADLY ship/sell/send ANYTHING that's legal into CA, sometimes I need to check the law. I do this by asking on boards with Californians. But instead of friendly help, sometimes I get snotty answers or people hollering at me for not knowing.

I'm trying to work within a system that's purposefully unfriendly and that doesn't exist in 49 other states. In exchange for the excess BS, it'd be nice not to get hollered at.

Is it too much to ask that, in exchange for jumping through those hoops, that I not get yelled at for being sure that something's legal?

Absolutely, that's not too much to ask.

I'm the kind of person that will continue to answer the same questions, day after day, and not get tired of it. I have never told some "Use the Search", and personally, I believe it's rude - especially to people that are new on the site.

Many people are probably scared to post questions, thinking that they are going to get hammered by "Use Search", "This has been posted xxxx times!", etc.

prebans
12-29-2009, 2:06 PM
One thing to consider is that the CA FFL is responsible for following the law with regards to any transfers. While it is a good idea to ensure that the person knows if the firearm is on the certified list or not, if the person is exempt or if the FFL intends to sell it outside of CA there is no problem. The main thing to check is that the CA FFL is ok with what is being shipped.

A CA FFL can get a high capacity permit, so with that the magazine size does not matter. Sometimes the FFL has to get a firearm with high capacity magazines since that is all that is available and then swap out the magazines before it is transferred to the person.

It would be nice if people could ask questions without the bad responses, but I doubt that will ever happen since you are dealing with humans and due to the type of interaction, people feel that they can be rude. You see that on the road too.

Part of the people is that people also get annoyed with the same questions again and again, which is not a good excuse, but it happens.

Your comment about the receiving FFL is partially true. While it IS their duty to not transfer banned firearms, the FFL introducing, shipping, or otherwise sending banned firearms INTO California can get in trouble. One of my licensed friends had a bit of a to-do with NY over this; he sent a no-ban AR15 into CA. While pre-94 AWs are still legit, post-94 must be AWB compliant. Guess who got into trouble with NY over that error? It's the same scoop with any other state; sending in something illegal causes trouble for the sender.

Further, we have to be mindful that not all items sent to CA require a FFL. Does this mean that ONLY the recipient gets into trouble if they receive something illegal, whether a high cap mag or a firearm? Nope- the sender gets spanked, too.

Folks who don't know the law, sender or recipient, have good cause to be careful.

Keep in mind that your part about bad responses sounds like the excuse many FFLs use to bar sales to CA. Substitute bad responses with "no sales to CA FFLs," and it sounds all the same. There's no excuse for folks being rude to those who are trying to offer to them what many others won't.

I will continue doing business in CA so long as it remains illegal. All I ask is that questions from those who are willing to ship and sell into CA be tolerated with good humor. We're doing our best..! :)

Sincerely,

Mike

TripleT
12-29-2009, 2:21 PM
Mike,

For what it's worth, I appreciate your attitude and perseverance. We are trying to make things better here. Let's hope if we make some headway we receive the credit, just as we have received the blame...

Tankhatch
12-31-2009, 12:16 AM
Hows this for a guess,,,,,

Read somewhere on the board, that Joe Private (non-ffl) citizen can send a long arm to a destination FFL to complete a sale.
If thats true,,,,, that would be a sound reason not to sell to us Kalifornia folks,,,
We are trapped in Kalifornia, with the law needing, a verified FFL to send to verified FFL, to buy a gun.

aka,,,, the seller (non FFL) may be avoiding the paying & using a true FFL,,,
And just send a auction bought longarm to a destination FFL to complete the transaction paperwork thats lawfully required

aka,,, ""NO Sales to California"" maybe just an excuse, for sellers to save money, by not paying a FFL to send to a FFL.

I might be wrong,,,, I have not sold or bought anything this century.

I do not know any FFL's,

So FFL's,,, whats your enlightened view of my guess.

ke6guj
12-31-2009, 12:26 AM
Hows this for a guess,,,,,

Read somewhere on the board, that Joe Private (non-ffl) citizen can send a long arm to a destination FFL to complete a sale.
If thats true,,,,,that is true, a non-FFL can send a firearm to the buyer's FFL.

that would be a sound reason not to sell to us Kalifornia folks,,,
We are trapped in Kalifornia, with the law needing, a verified FFL to send to verified FFL, to buy a gun.that is incorrect, CA does not require you to ship from FFL to FFL. You can ship non-FFL to FFL, just like every one else. However, it it is shipped from FFL to FFL, the receiving FFL must have a copy of the approval letter that confirms that he is a CA-licensed FFL.

aka,,,, the seller (non FFL) may be avoiding the paying & using a true FFL,,,
And just send a auction bought longarm to a destination FFL to complete the transaction paperwork thats lawfully required

aka,,, ""NO Sales to California"" maybe just an excuse, for sellers to save money, by not paying a FFL to send to a FFL. If the seller is not an FFL, then there is no difference for him to ship to CA.

If the seller is an FFL, then they would need to sign up for the CFLC to get a confirmation approval that confirms that the receiving FFL is a CA dealer.

prebans
12-31-2009, 10:15 AM
Mike,

For what it's worth, I appreciate your attitude and perseverance. We are trying to make things better here. Let's hope if we make some headway we receive the credit, just as we have received the blame...

I hope that you are able to turn things around! Plenty of mouth-breathers out there who made pronouncements about CA being a lost cause would FINALLY be shown for what they are-- ignorant and stupid.

Mike

dpharley
01-02-2010, 9:38 PM
It can be a huge pain finding a out of state FFL to ship firearms we want, last year I came across one and he is great. I've bought several Black rifles from him Sig, AR, Dragunov etc, and even a Sig P556 pistol. He understands the laws, use of bullet buttons, monster grips, Single shot mags. They are a pretty big dealer and have good instore inventory. And they will special order anything. Give Max at Precision Sports a try, tell him Darren sent you his way and he will hook you up. They are happy to ship to your FFL in California.

www.precisionsportsoshkosh.com

Max Runge
kayakmax@precisionsportsoshkosh.com
Precision Sports
4717 State Road 44
Oshkosh WI 54904
Ph. 920-233-2274
Fax 920-233-2257