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View Full Version : no knock warrants vs. home defense


stan
12-25-2009, 10:28 PM
read about a no-knock warrant being executed on a family somewhere, and i thought of this question:

say someone is in their home, carrying, and a no-knock warrant is executed. door is burst open and the person has jedi reflexes and immediately shoots the intruders, who turn out to be LEO. assuming the other LEOs don't shoot the homeowner right then and there, how would that play out? if the person reasonably did not know it was LEO (lets say its a dark room, and they havent said "police! search warrant!" yet) and was acting in what they believed to be self defense, how would that be handled?

SJgunguy24
12-25-2009, 10:31 PM
That happend down south somewhere (not cali) the home owner killed one of the cops. Turned out to be the wrong house and it was no knock. IIRC he was going to trial for murder.
This one scares me cause it almost happend to me.

Matt C
12-25-2009, 10:33 PM
How do you think? Assuming the warrant was valid my guess is they would be charged with murder, if they were not shot first. A better question would be how in the hell is the homeowner supposed to know it is cops and not a home invasion.

professorhard
12-25-2009, 10:35 PM
Let em stack up in a fatal funnel and then start shooting .308s through it

hawk81
12-25-2009, 10:38 PM
Good shooting, just my opinion.

AndrewMendez
12-25-2009, 10:39 PM
I was under the impression that the Police had to announce themselves as they where entering the house. Its scares the hell out of me, when I see those SWAT TV Shows, and the guys come in with MP5's, but they are wearing Jeans and a Vest. But in all honesty, if your house in getting raided, its probably not an accident!

Sj, how did this almost happen to you??

Matt C
12-25-2009, 10:41 PM
I was under the impression that the Police had to announce themselves as they where entering the house.

Home invasion robbers are known to yell out "POLICE" as well.

Cokebottle
12-25-2009, 10:50 PM
Isn't one of the aspects of a "good shoot" identification of the target?

Shooting anyone in a dark room is not a good idea.

bigstick61
12-25-2009, 10:55 PM
It creates a really crappy situation when you have no knock warrants and some of these done by plainclothes cops, especially when mistakes are made by the cops (such as getting the wrong house, or serving a warrant on someone who does not live in the house and never did in the time the current occupatns have been there). It's even worse when you have criminals pretending to be cops, uniformed and plainclothes. It is quite a frightening thought.

Another theoretical scenario is that you respond to what you believe to be a home invasion while armed and the police start shooting at you, seeing your weapon before you fire. You basically have to kill or disable the cops, or you may well be a dead man, and may be one anyways. These situations seem to me to be ones where you lose no matter what.

Matt C
12-25-2009, 10:57 PM
Isn't one of the aspects of a "good shoot" identification of the target?

Shooting anyone in a dark room is not a good idea.

What does it matter if you can see them, or if they are plainclothes or not for that matter? http://cgi.ebay.com/Jacket-rainjacket-FBI-style-size-L-or-XL-XXL-RARE_W0QQitemZ380188478242QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMen_s _Clothes?hash=item5884ffcb22

These situations seem to me to be ones where you lose no matter what.


Yup.

AndrewMendez
12-25-2009, 10:58 PM
Home invasion robbers are known to yell out "POLICE" as well.

Shoot first, ask questions later?
I always have a sidearm well on my property, and I cant walk more then 25 feet without running into something else. They better be able to shoot better then me. (Bad Guys that is)

cbn620
12-25-2009, 11:11 PM
I oppose no-knock warrants. I oppose militarized police forces. That said I'm not gonna shoot first and ask questions later if my door falls off its hinges. You have to identify your target.

Matt C
12-25-2009, 11:17 PM
I oppose no-knock warrants. I oppose militarized police forces. That said I'm not gonna shoot first and ask questions later if my door falls off its hinges. You have to identify your target.

Of course if you don't shoot, and it's a home invasion, this could happen to your family: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/25/national/main3095614.shtml?source=mostpop_story

chickenfried
12-25-2009, 11:19 PM
Hey it might be those extreme home makeover people.That said I'm not gonna shoot first and ask questions later if my door falls off its hinges.

CCWFacts
12-25-2009, 11:19 PM
say someone is in their home, carrying, and a no-knock warrant is executed. door is burst open and the person has jedi reflexes and immediately shoots the intruders, who turn out to be LEO. assuming the other LEOs don't shoot the homeowner right then and there, how would that play out?

It would play out that the person would spend life in prison, regardless of what the facts are or if his actions were reasonable or not. Right or wrong, that's how the bulk of these cases have gone.

It's yet another element of the War on Drugs that is a threat to all of our lives and liberty.

No-knock warrants should, in my opinion, be banned except in cases of kidnappings or hostage situations. It's not worth the risk of killing an innocent person in the name of attempting to prevent people from destroying themselves with drugs. I care about innocent people. I don't really care about people who want to kill themselves with drugs.

Home invasion robbers are known to yell out "POLICE" as well.

Of course. It doesn't cost them anything and it's effective. There's no reason for them not to yell POLICE as they break in. The only risk to them is (maybe) getting a charge of "impersonating a police officer" tacked on, but when someone is already committing a robbery, he isn't too concerned about such small legal points.

JDoe
12-25-2009, 11:22 PM
read about a no-knock warrant being executed on a family somewhere, and i thought of this question:

say someone is in their home, carrying, and a no-knock warrant is executed. door is burst open and the person has jedi reflexes and immediately shoots the intruders, who turn out to be LEO. assuming the other LEOs don't shoot the homeowner right then and there, how would that play out? if the person reasonably did not know it was LEO (lets say its a dark room, and they havent said "police! search warrant!" yet) and was acting in what they believed to be self defense, how would that be handled?

The home owner would be likely be charged with murder. See http://www.cato.org/raidmap/ for more info.

CCWFacts
12-25-2009, 11:26 PM
Btw, it's important to understand why no-knock warrants were started:

It is not about officer safety, protecting lives, or any of that.

The reason we have so many no-knock warrants is to make it more likely to preserve drug evidence during an arrest. It's to stop drug dealers from flushing their stash down the toilet after the police knock and show a warrant.

So they are willing to put innocent residents at risk, for the sake of capturing some evidence.

Again, I think no-knock warrants should be banned except for kidnapping or hostage situations. I don't want to see that kind of thing used except when lives are in peril. But unfortunately, they are mainly used to preserve drug evidence. Not that it has any effect at all in limiting drug availability in the US.

cbn620
12-25-2009, 11:29 PM
Of course if you don't shoot, and it's a home invasion, this could happen to your family: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/25/national/main3095614.shtml?source=mostpop_story

Sorry, but were they holding guns at the guys and decided not to shoot them because they might have been cops? By all means, if people enter your house and you identify them as not cops, and you are in fear for your life, do what you have to. As I say a million times on this site, I'm not making rules for anyone but myself. I'm just saying in the OP's particular scenario of "door busts open, time to ninja off a couple shots from the 12 gauge before I realize what I'm shooting at" is not, in my opinion, an ethical shoot until the threat is identified.

AndrewMendez
12-25-2009, 11:30 PM
I oppose no-knock warrants. I oppose militarized police forces. That said I'm not gonna shoot first and ask questions later if my door falls off its hinges. You have to identify your target.

If you have nothing cops would need a search warrant for, why would you assume it was in fact the Police and not someone performing a Home Invasion? Maybe someone who knows you have multiple Firearms??
I have massive Steel doors on every door of my house, and I highly doubt that a single person, let alone a small group of people would be able to remove it without me having time to figure out the who, why, what etc... I also have camera's, Home Security System for all doors and windows, motions sensors through out including in the Attic, motion sensor lights on all 4 sides. If I saw 20 guys and black armored trucks, I obviously wont assume its a Home Invasion.

Matt C
12-25-2009, 11:39 PM
Sorry, but were they holding guns at the guys and decided not to shoot them because they might have been cops? By all means, if people enter your house and you identify them as not cops, and you are in fear for your life, do what you have to. As I say a million times on this site, I'm not making rules for anyone but myself. I'm just saying in the OP's particular scenario of "door busts open, time to ninja off a couple shots from the 12 gauge before I realize what I'm shooting at" is not, in my opinion, an ethical shoot until the threat is identified.

You are going to have to put down your gun(s) long before you get a chance to identify anybody if you want to avoid getting shot, police or not. You are not going to "hold guns at" the police until you have identified them, they will shoot you. So will home invaders most likely. You simply WILL NOT have time to identify, that is pure fantasy (unless like the above poster said you have time to see black armored trucks and 20 guys because you have steel doors everywhere and cctv, which I don't).

So you are really saying that if your door gets kicked in at 3am you are not going to arm yourself. That's fine, but other people might make a different choice.

bigstick61
12-25-2009, 11:41 PM
Sorry, but were they holding guns at the guys and decided not to shoot them because they might have been cops? By all means, if people enter your house and you identify them as not cops, and you are in fear for your life, do what you have to. As I say a million times on this site, I'm not making rules for anyone but myself. I'm just saying in the OP's particular scenario of "door busts open, time to ninja off a couple shots from the 12 gauge before I realize what I'm shooting at" is not, in my opinion, an ethical shoot until the threat is identified.

What about if you see them and they are cops but there is nothing that can identify them as such and you see that they are armed and in a position to do harm, as far as you can tell? Would it not be appropriate to shoot then? You can't always know absolutely what is going on under such conditions, especially given the speed of the events taking place. One must assume there will be a certain amount of chaos in a home invasion. If you shoot and they are cops, you could well be in for a world of hurt, either by their guns, or in court (even if you get off you may well have to deal with a lot of hardship on the way there), but if you don't shoot and they turn out to be robbers, you may be in for an even bigger world of hurt, and perhaps your family, too.

cbn620
12-25-2009, 11:44 PM
No, that's not what I'm saying in the slightest my friend. OP posted a purely hypothetical situation of what I am assuming is door breaks, you shoot before door hits ground. Sorry but I'm not going to do that. I did not say I will have my gun trained on police. I am not engaging in that fantasy. The entire hypothetical is by its very nature pure fantasy, in that you're waiting there with a gun trained on the door when it breaks; that is the only way you could shoot as fast as the OP describes. I'm saying I am not going to shoot at something when I have no idea if it's even human, i.e. a door opening/breaking.

Please don't misjudge my statements.

cbn620
12-25-2009, 11:47 PM
What about if you see them and they are cops but there is nothing that can identify them as such and you see that they are armed and in a position to do harm, as far as you can tell? Would it not be appropriate to shoot then? You can't always know absolutely what is going on under such conditions, especially given the speed of the events taking place. One must assume there will be a certain amount of chaos in a home invasion. If you shoot and they are cops, you could well be in for a world of hurt, either by their guns, or in court (even if you get off you may well have to deal with a lot of hardship on the way there), but if you don't shoot and they turn out to be robbers, you may be in for an even bigger world of hurt, and perhaps your family, too.

No idea, no comment. I'm responding entirely in kind to the original scenario. Obviously no knock warrants are a nasty game no matter what way you slice it. I'm in the back bedroom, I hear door break, I'm coming out with shotgun to see what it is and make the decision as to whether I should shoot it or not, all in mere seconds. Their guns are at the ready and if this is "armed and highly dangerous" kind of policing I will be shot. Whether I am armed or not, there is a chance I will be shot. No knock warrants go bad all the time, especially when coupled with the "wrong house" dynamic. I clearly oppose no knock warrants, my point is not that it is unethical to shoot something you thought was trying to kill you. My point is I don't shoot at bumps in the night, even big ones, and then ask all my questions later.

AndrewMendez
12-25-2009, 11:55 PM
You are going to have to put down your gun(s) long before you get a chance to identify anybody if you want to avoid getting shot, police or not. You are not going to "hold guns at" the police until you have identified them, they will shoot you. So will home invaders most likely. You simply WILL NOT have time to identify, that is pure fantasy (unless like the above poster said you have time to see black armored trucks and 20 guys because you have steel doors everywhere and cctv, which I don't).

So you are really saying that if your door gets kicked in at 3am you are not going to arm yourself. That's fine, but other people might make a different choice.

The TV's with DVR's included are cheaper then you probably think, I dont remember how much the doors where by themselves, because other Iron work was done to the entire house, including 8 ft High Gates. However, what I think is best besides lights for this situation, is 2 good Old Fashion Dogs, the Barking will wake you up, long before the door does!

cbn620
12-25-2009, 11:57 PM
If you have nothing cops would need a search warrant for, why would you assume it was in fact the Police and not someone performing a Home Invasion? Maybe someone who knows you have multiple Firearms??
I have massive Steel doors on every door of my house, and I highly doubt that a single person, let alone a small group of people would be able to remove it without me having time to figure out the who, why, what etc... I also have camera's, Home Security System for all doors and windows, motions sensors through out including in the Attic, motion sensor lights on all 4 sides. If I saw 20 guys and black armored trucks, I obviously wont assume its a Home Invasion.

Your point that I don't assume they are cops is correct. Unfortunately it is more to the point as to why I don't shoot. I don't have the veritable fort knoxx you have man, with all due respect and no offense intended. If my door breaks I have no idea why. Maybe there's a linebacker outside practicing his drills. Maybe the terr'rists just detonated a bomb out there. Maybe it was an earthquake. Maybe some drunk kicked it open. Maybe one of the hinges spontaneously combusted. As absurd as these things sound I would assume all of these before I assumed a police officer is standing there. If I shoot at that door and have no target I could be shooting into the wind, sending my rounds into the apartment across the hall. I have to make sure what I'm shooting at is a body at the very least, and door breaking down is not enough information.

Okay, if I see a body and don't instantly recognize it as an LEO, I'm shooting. That much is obvious, I stated as much. What would the consequences be? I have no idea. History says the consequences are going to be pretty bad for me.

Matt C
12-26-2009, 12:05 AM
No, that's not what I'm saying in the slightest my friend. OP posted a purely hypothetical situation of what I am assuming is door breaks, you shoot before door hits ground. Sorry but I'm not going to do that.

OP said "door is burst open". That's open as in "not closed". In any case if you still have the gun in hand when the door is opening, decision making time is probably over.

I did not say I will have my gun trained on police.

Ok, where is it pointed then? Do you think it matters? If they see a gun when they come in they will shoot. So will armed home invaders I would imagine.

you're waiting there with a gun trained on the door when it breaks; that is the only way you could shoot as fast as the OP describes. I.

Right, the only way you are going to successfully engage multiple persons breaking in on you is to have the gun ready, aimed at where they are coming in, and shoot the moment you have a target. By the time they get in it will be kill or be killed in that moment, or you won't have a gun because you already decided not to bring it. You won't have time to figure out if they are cops or people dressed like cops in time for it to make any difference, unless you have the cctv and plenty of warning (and maybe not even then).

AndrewMendez
12-26-2009, 12:07 AM
Your point that I don't assume they are cops is correct. Unfortunately it is more to the point as to why I don't shoot. I don't have the veritable fort knoxx you have man, with all due respect and no offense intended. If my door breaks I have no idea why. Maybe there's a linebacker outside practicing his drills. Maybe the terr'rists just detonated a bomb out there. Maybe it was an earthquake. Maybe some drunk kicked it open. Maybe one of the hinges spontaneously combusted. As absurd as these things sound I would assume all of these before I assumed a police officer is standing there. If I shoot at that door and have no target I could be shooting into the wind, sending my rounds into the apartment across the hall. I have to make sure what I'm shooting at is a body at the very least, and door breaking down is not enough information.

Okay, if I see a body and don't instantly recognize it as an LEO, I'm shooting. That much is obvious, I stated as much. What would the consequences be? I have no idea. History says the consequences are going to be pretty bad for me.

No offense taken, I hear what your saying, and I think the last sentence sums up exactly what we both are trying to say. I would never shoot into darkness, unless maybe when Zombies rule the world, I feel my house is very well protected, and gives me a great advantage.

socal2310
12-26-2009, 5:37 AM
It sucks, but this is what will happen to you if you are fortunate enough to survive the incident:

Ryan Frederick (http://hamptonroads.com/2009/02/verdict-reached-ryan-frederick-trial-details-come-0)

Cory Maye (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184992,00.html)

I agree with CCWFacts, preservation of evidence is a pretty thin justification for violating the sanctity of someone's home in that manner. I'm sorry, but the lives of both homeowners and officers are more valuable than 20 kilo's of cocaine or heroine. No knock warrants for possession of marijuana are even more heinous: there is no way someone is going to dispose of a significant quantity of bud before officers can get into the house. Any amount larger than a dime bag is going to clog the toilet and police aren't going to execute a warrant expecting to find less than several ounces.

Ryan

RandyD
12-26-2009, 8:25 AM
The scenario posed by the OP is unlikely to occur but it is a good academic point to discuss. The bottom line is, we have a right to feel safe and secure in our homes. The onus is on law enforcement to obtain and execute a search warrant properly. If they fail at these tasks, it would not surprise me if the DA's office defers to the agency and prosecutes a citizen who acted in self defense.

vhram
12-26-2009, 8:34 AM
That happend down south somewhere (not cali) the home owner killed one of the cops. Turned out to be the wrong house and it was no knock. IIRC he was going to trial for murder.
This one scares me cause it almost happend to me.
This actually happened in Newberry park , ca a few years ago , wrong house and they shot and killed the wrong guy at the wrong house.

GaryV
12-26-2009, 8:36 AM
It would play out that the person would spend life in prison, regardless of what the facts are or if his actions were reasonable or not. Right or wrong, that's how the bulk of these cases have gone.

It's yet another element of the War on Drugs that is a threat to all of our lives and liberty.

Do you have any references to specific cases? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just interested in knowing as much as I can on the subject (as I am with almost all subjects relating to legal issues of guns and self-defense).

In many states, you are justified in using deadly force during someone's attempt to forcibly enter your home, even before actual entry is gained. And you are permitted to do so unless you know or reasonably should have known that they were LEOs. So in a no-knock warrant situation, people in at least some states would have a statutory defense against any charges if they shot a plainclothes officer attempting to serve a no-knock warrant, assuming that the warrant was being served on the wrong house/person (there is usually an exception to the "castle doctrine" law if you are involved in criminal activity, so if the warrant is served on the right house, you're probably not covered). If there are any cases in such states, I'd be very interested to know the outcome, because, from a strictly legal point of view, those people should not be convicted of any wrong-doing.

You're right about the origin and purpose of no-knocks. Even though officer safety is often cited after the fact if a warrant is challenged, they were originally designed by the Nixon administration to keep drug suspects from flushing their stash, and are still used primarily in drug cases. They are also now used extensively to justify the cost of maintaining expensive SWAT units by departments that have very little actual use for them, except to serve high-risk warrants (that are mostly only high-risk because the police choose to execute drug warrants in that fashion).

bodger
12-26-2009, 9:17 AM
Isn't one of the aspects of a "good shoot" identification of the target?

Shooting anyone in a dark room is not a good idea.


Yeah, but anyone kicks my door in and rushes into my house, light or dark, I'm probably going to start shooting.

I imagine lying in bed and I hear the door kicked in, I'm shooting whatever comes through there and asking questions later. Rebuttable assumption that whoever did the kick-in is there to do harm to me.

It's a hard call. You shoot a cop executing a valid warrant, knock or no-knock, you're not walking away clean I'll bet. Most likely you will die at the scene.

Librarian
12-26-2009, 9:43 AM
Acknowledging this is probably a no-win scenario, Legislature has both sides covered:
PC 196 Homicide is justifiable when committed by public officers and those acting by their command in their aid and assistance, either--

1.In obedience to any judgment of a competent Court; or,

2.When necessarily committed in overcoming actual resistance to the execution of some legal process, or in the discharge of any other legal duty; or,

3.When necessarily committed in retaking felons who have been rescued or have escaped, or when necessarily committed in arresting persons charged with felony, and who are fleeing from justice or resisting such arrest.
and PC 197 Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:

1.When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,

2.When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or,

3.When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed; or,

4.When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.

Breaking in is certainly violent -197(4)- and no-knock is very likely 196(2). My impression is that in these kinds of circumstances, LEOs are likely to get the better of the legal angle.

A thoroughly rotten problem.

Maestro Pistolero
12-26-2009, 9:50 AM
No-knock warrants will only cease to be leniently issued when it no longer serves the agency's goals, or when the cost becomes too high. As previously mentioned, the standard of scrutiny for issuing such warrants should be the very highest.

Since the USSC has already characterized the home as a special place, where defense of hearth and home is most sacred, I believe we are only the right case away from a standard being established for this type of paramilitary approach to law enforcement.

It would be interesting to see principles of posse comitatus applied here. If the military cannot be employed against the citizens, what about military tactics and weapons? Does it not amount to the same thing from a different source?

CCWFacts
12-26-2009, 10:25 AM
Do you have any references to specific cases? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just interested in knowing as much as I can on the subject (as I am with almost all subjects relating to legal issues of guns and self-defense).

Yes, I have too many to list here. Take a look at this site on no-knock raids gone wrong (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/).

Here are a few examples:

April 30, 2008—OH

Columbus police raided a building they erroneously believed was a crack house. Two 21-year veterans of the department, Officers John Gillis and Anthony Garrison, were shot as they entered the house to serve the warrant. The injuries were serious, but both officers survived.

Two men were charged with attempted murder for shooting at the police: Michael T. Gravely, 19, has a criminal record and had outstanding charges at the time of the incident. The other man, 38-year old Derrick Foster, is a former football player for Ohio State University and a respected member of his community, a college graduate, and has no previous criminal record or links to drug activity. Foster had a permit for the weapon he used in the shooting.

Charges are still pending as of September 8, 2008.

March 23, 2006—GA

On March 23, 2006, 12 officers conduct a 1:30 am no-knock drug raid on a house in Macon, Georgia. During the raid, Dep. Whitehead is shot and killed by residents Antron Dawayne Fair and Damon Antwon.

Bibb County Sheriff Jerry Modena told the Macon Telegraph that once the suspects realized the raiding party was law enforcement and not gang members, they surrendered immediately.

Nevertheless, prosecutors charged five of the residents with murder, including one who wasn't in the building at the time. The two who actually fired weapons during the raid face the death penalty.

October 5, 2002—NC

On October 5, 2002, a sherif's department SWAT team in Brunswick County, North Carolina raids the home of 25-year-old Paul Pelham and his roommate, Atari Thomas. The raid commences after police say an informant sold Pelham an ounce of crack cocaine two days ealier.

The police, dressed in camouflage, forcibly enter the home. They say they announced themselves, though neighbors would testify for Mr. Pelham at trial that they heard no announcement. Pelham is awoken late at night to the sound of flashbang grenades, reaches for his gun, and shoots at what he says he thought were intruders.

Pelham shoots and wounds Dep. Steven Lanier. One bullet hits the officer in the back, another hits him in the hand. Other officers then open fire on Pelham, shooting him 17 times. Pelham says he didn't know the raiding officers were police until after he was shot.

Pelham is eventually charged and convicted of assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill and inflicting serious injury, three counts of assault with a firearm, and drug charges. He is acquitted of first-degree attempted murder and the charge of selling crack to an informant, the charge that brought the raid. Pelham is sentenced to 19 to 26 years in prison.

Deputy Lanier suffers permanent disability from his injury, and can no longer serve on the SWAT team

Too many more to list.

In many states, you are justified in using deadly force during someone's attempt to forcibly enter your home, even before actual entry is gained. And you are permitted to do so unless you know or reasonably should have known that they were LEOs. So in a no-knock warrant situation, people in at least some states would have a statutory defense against any charges if they shot a plainclothes officer attempting to serve a no-knock warrant, assuming that the warrant was being served on the wrong house/person (there is usually an exception to the "castle doctrine" law if you are involved in criminal activity, so if the warrant is served on the right house, you're probably not covered). If there are any cases in such states, I'd be very interested to know the outcome, because, from a strictly legal point of view, those people should not be convicted of any wrong-doing.

Happens all the time, and it doesn't matter what state law says, these people go to prison for long sentences, whether it's right or wrong.

You're right about the origin and purpose of no-knocks. Even though officer safety is often cited after the fact if a warrant is challenged, they were originally designed by the Nixon administration to keep drug suspects from flushing their stash, and are still used primarily in drug cases.

Yes. That is the stated purpose.

They are also now used extensively to justify the cost of maintaining expensive SWAT units by departments that have very little actual use for them, except to serve high-risk warrants (that are mostly only high-risk because the police choose to execute drug warrants in that fashion).

Yes, that's the other underlying reason. And also no-knock raids and shooting people is probably enjoyable for some SWAT members.

sholling
12-26-2009, 10:27 AM
Hmmmmm, a half dozen men dressed like slobs and wearing ski masks break in your front door and you're supposed to know they are po-po. As far as I'm concerned if they are not in uniform or are wearing masks then they are not police. No that won't keep them from lying and saying they had badges in plain sight or announced themselves but that's life.

BTW, let's not forget the poor in guy murdered in his bed back in the 80s by LE officers hoping to find pot plants so that they could confiscate his house and land to use as a new training and party center. No drugs were found and nobody lost their jobs and a homeowner is dead.

nick
12-26-2009, 11:00 AM
A thoroughly rotten problem.

That pretty much sums it up.

CCWFacts
12-26-2009, 11:04 AM
Breaking in is certainly violent -197(4)- and no-knock is very likely 196(2). My impression is that in these kinds of circumstances, LEOs are likely to get the better of the legal angle.

A thoroughly rotten problem.

Yes. It's an absolute no-win for the resident. If the guy survives he will be charged and serve a long long sentence, right or wrong.

Since the USSC has already characterized the home as a special place, where defense of hearth and home is most sacred, I believe we are only the right case away from a standard being established for this type of paramilitary approach to law enforcement.

That case will never come. They have tried many times and they get nowhere.

It would be interesting to see principles of posse comitatus applied here. If the military cannot be employed against the citizens, what about military tactics and weapons? Does it not amount to the same thing from a different source?

It does. The police are not military and should not act like the military. They should work in uniform, and should knock to give a resident the opportunity to comply with a warrant, except in cases where a life is in immediate danger (a hostage situation). But, they are willing to put possible preservation of a kilo of coke at a higher priority than protecting possibly innocent residents from being shot.

BTW, let's not forget the poor in guy murdered in his bed back in the 80s by LE officers hoping to find pot plants so that they could confiscate his house and land to use as a new training and party center. No drugs were found and nobody lost their jobs and a homeowner is dead.

Indeed.

Five police agencies staged bogus drug raid on rich eccentric to acquire 200-acre spread

In one of the more infamous instances of alleged law enforcement misconduct -- the killing of the reclusive Malibu millionaire and rugged anti-government individualist Donald Scott in his ranch house by Los Angeles sheriff's deputies in 1992 -- county and federal government officials tentatively agreed last week to pay Scott's heirs and estate a total of $5 million in return for their dropping a wrongful death lawsuit.

bombadillo
12-26-2009, 11:14 AM
How do you think? Assuming the warrant was valid my guess is they would be charged with murder, if they were not shot first. A better question would be how in the hell is the homeowner supposed to know it is cops and not a home invasion.

This reminds me of an old episode of COPS and there was a lady with her daughter and grandson in an apartment complex. The place was raided by about 8-10 thugs, door kicked in and they were screaming POLICE while entering. How is a person supposed to know?? I'll at that point stay locked up in the bedroom till I see badges and uniforms at least. If a person in street clothes is in my house screaming police he better be wearing a jacket because i'm going to start shooting.

anthonyca
12-26-2009, 11:20 AM
You are going to have to put down your gun(s) long before you get a chance to identify anybody if you want to avoid getting shot, police or not. You are not going to "hold guns at" the police until you have identified them, they will shoot you. So will home invaders most likely. You simply WILL NOT have time to identify, that is pure fantasy (unless like the above poster said you have time to see black armored trucks and 20 guys because you have steel doors everywhere and cctv, which I don't).

So you are really saying that if your door gets kicked in at 3am you are not going to arm yourself. That's fine, but other people might make a different choice.

I don't remember from your case, was it a no knock warrant when the police searched your house? Either way I can see how it would affect your sense of security in your home for ever.

nick
12-26-2009, 11:28 AM
I think this thread has highlighted the need for early alerts to incoming intruders. Once your door is broken down (by criminals or police), how you proceed is a very delicate matter. If it's the police, a gun in your hand might be enough to get you shot, but if it's criminals, you'll want the gun and perhaps might use it immediately.

I suppose this all underscores the need for some sort of perimeter alert along with a video camera outside...that way maybe you can get your target identification before the door is broken in and things get really tense.

I think, this underscores the need for legislative and legal action. No-knock warrants should be outlawed for all but a very restricted set of circumstances, with highest possible scrutiny, and with proper legal framework set up to protect the potential victims of a botched raid instead of punishing them for, o horror, trying to stay alive.

If this makes it harder to preserve evidence from being flushed down the toilet, it's a VERY small price to pay.

Matt C
12-26-2009, 11:30 AM
I don't remember from your case, was it a no knock warrant when the police searched your house? Either way I can see how it would affect your sense of security in your home for ever.

They did obtain a no knock warrant but according to the report they did not execute it (and waited to pull me over after I left my house) because they felt after further investigation that a no knock raid would be too dangerous for officers and the surrounding public.

SJgunguy24
12-26-2009, 11:30 AM
I was under the impression that the Police had to announce themselves as they where entering the house. Its scares the hell out of me, when I see those SWAT TV Shows, and the guys come in with MP5's, but they are wearing Jeans and a Vest. But in all honesty, if your house in getting raided, its probably not an accident!

Sj, how did this almost happen to you??



My mother broke her back and the drugs she was taking made her really loopy. Well one night she was on the phone with Kaiser saying she was tired of hurting. They took that as a suicide threat and called the police.

My step father was going outside for a smoke and the cops got him at gunpoint and came into the house. I'm asleep during in my room, and then I have a flashlight and a gun in my face.
I'm ripped from bed and these guys are yelling at me and asking where the guns are. I get some dick Sergent in my face (like 1" away yelling at me), I suspect he was trying to get me to hit him. I told all of them the GTFO now then they say their are there for a welfare check.
SGT dickhead gets out of my face when I start talking about needing a warrant and there's no way in hell I will allow them to take my guns.
I told the other sergent, what would happen if I thought this was a home invasion? You didn't announce anything and have no right to enter the home. I have every right to defend my home against 6 armed men who don't tell me who they are.

He just looked at me and said he's glad that didn't happen. *****s

Mayhem
12-26-2009, 11:37 AM
Deleted.

anthonyca
12-26-2009, 11:44 AM
Gun rights advocates may want to take note: Diotaiuto’s possession of a legal conceal-carry permit was cited as a “major factor” in the police department’s decision to use a SWAT team and forced entry.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2006/08/07/scalias-new-police-professionalism/

it's even been ruled that LEO is protected even if they have the wrong address. There was also a recent scotus ruling about a man arrested on a false
warrant from another agency. He lost.

The sad thing is most people do not understand liberty and would
take "security" over liberty and we loose both. I believe that was Ben Franklin.

CCWFacts
12-26-2009, 12:32 PM
I think, this underscores the need for legislative and legal action. No-knock warrants should be outlawed for all but a very restricted set of circumstances, with highest possible scrutiny, and with proper legal framework set up to protect the potential victims of a botched raid instead of punishing them for, o horror, trying to stay alive.

If this makes it harder to preserve evidence from being flushed down the toilet, it's a VERY small price to pay.

I agree completely. It's not worth killing someone over gathering a kilo of evidence. The drugs will continue to flow no matter what LE does. A kilo here or there will change someone's sentence by a few years, but it won't make any difference in drug availability to US consumers. Not the slightest, tiniest difference. For every drug dealer who is caught, there are 100 more who are not caught, who are eager to take his place.

This thing is a very serious threat to gun owners' lives and liberty, and LEOs' lives. It's an absolute no-win situation for all parties involved, and should be banned except in the most extreme cases (hostages).

Unfortunately neither of the two main political parties have the slightest interest in addressing these issues. In fact they are competing with each other to prove who is the most eager to use the most violence in this hopeless, endless war.

Chuck0matic
12-26-2009, 12:54 PM
I think this thread has highlighted the need for early alerts to incoming intruders. Once your door is broken down (by criminals or police), how you proceed is a very delicate matter. If it's the police, a gun in your hand might be enough to get you shot, but if it's criminals, you'll want the gun and perhaps might use it immediately.

I suppose this all underscores the need for some sort of perimeter alert along with a video camera outside...that way maybe you can get your target identification before the door is broken in and things get really tense.

The value of a DVR CCTV system, and dogs is priceless. You will have the early warning you need to look outside the window, and figure out what is going on.

Chuck0matic
12-26-2009, 1:00 PM
My mother broke her back and the drugs she was taking made her really loopy. Well one night she was on the phone with Kaiser saying she was tired of hurting. They took that as a suicide threat and called the police.

My step father was going outside for a smoke and the cops got him at gunpoint and came into the house. I'm asleep during in my room, and then I have a flashlight and a gun in my face.
I'm ripped from bed and these guys are yelling at me and asking where the guns are. I get some dick Sergent in my face (like 1" away yelling at me), I suspect he was trying to get me to hit him. I told all of them the GTFO now then they say their are there for a welfare check.
SGT dickhead gets out of my face when I start talking about needing a warrant and there's no way in hell I will allow them to take my guns.
I told the other sergent, what would happen if I thought this was a home invasion? You didn't announce anything and have no right to enter the home. I have every right to defend my home against 6 armed men who don't tell me who they are.

He just looked at me and said he's glad that didn't happen. *****s

Thats a vicious Welfare Check! Any Legal Action taken?

GuyW
12-26-2009, 1:28 PM
That said I'm not gonna shoot first and ask questions later if my door falls off its hinges. You have to identify your target.

I'm not a criminal, I have nothing illegal in my house. I do not engage in illegal activities. My family is in my house, and don't engage in illegal activities. The police have no justification for coming thru my door no-knock, warrant or not.

So anyone busting down my door are either criminals, rogue government agents specifically out to murder me, or dumb lazy cops pumped up to murder me.....too bad, sucks when you don't do your job right.

Anyone busts through my door, I'm taking out as many as I can, as quickly as I can....

“…At what exact point then, should one resist the communists?”
“How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family...?”
“Or, if during periods of mass arrests people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand.
….The police…. would have quickly suffered a shortage of officers …and notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt."
(The Gulag Archipelago)
-Alexandr Solzhenitsyn- Nobel Prize winner, 11 year survivor of the Soviet concentration camps.

Common sense, legislative action, court action, or a sufficient number of dead government agents are the only solutions to this government-created problem.
.





.

GaryV
12-26-2009, 2:09 PM
Yes, I have too many to list here. Take a look at this site on no-knock raids gone wrong (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/).

Here are a few examples:

Too many more to list.

I'll look at the site, but the three posted don't meet the standard about which I was talking.

In the first, it only says charges are pending, though the case is over a year old. This might be the kind of case I was talking about, since the police went to the wrong house, and there was nothing in the story about them having drugs or otherwise engaging in illegal activity. But we don't know if they were actually ever convicted of anything.

In the second, the warrant seems to have been served on the right house, and it sounds like the subjects were involved in a gang, and in the illegal activity for which the warrant was served.

In the third it was again the right house, and there were drugs involved.

While I don't agree with the use of no-knock warrants in any of these cases, I was hoping to see the end result of a case like #1, where the police were at the wrong house or were acting on bad information, the people were not in any way involved in illegal activity, and they had no way of knowing it was the police entering until after the shooting. I don't doubt that they'd be arrested and charged, but at trial the fact that they have a legal right to defend themselves in that situation should cause them to be acquitted, or possibly have it never go to trial. If people in those kinds of cases are being convicted, then there is a more serious problem.

GaryV
12-26-2009, 2:12 PM
They did obtain a no knock warrant but according to the report they did not execute it (and waited to pull me over after I left my house) because they felt after further investigation that a no knock raid would be too dangerous for officers and the surrounding public.

With no judgement about your specific case at all, this is exactly what police should do in virtually ALL cases where they now use no-knock warrants. There is never a reason to turn a non-life threatening situation into a lethal one.

Gryff
12-26-2009, 2:25 PM
You are either going to die, or you are going to prison for killing a cop. As unfair as this may be, it's worth it because at that moment, you are doing your job and protecting your family from an apparent home invader.

blacksheep
12-26-2009, 2:39 PM
I believe the term is " Better judged by 12 then carried by 6 ". sometimes you only have a split second, make use of it.:eek:

Cokebottle
12-26-2009, 2:44 PM
Yes, I have too many to list here. Take a look at this site on no-knock raids gone wrong (http://www.cato.org/raidmap/).

Here are a few examples:
And reading between the blotter/newspaper lines:
Michael T. Gravely, 19, has a criminal record was arrested for DUI when he was 16 and had outstanding charges at the time of the incident had not yet paid the fine on a speeding ticket received 4 days prior to the incident.
Spin abounds ;)

Cokebottle
12-26-2009, 2:58 PM
The value of a DVR CCTV system, and dogs is priceless. You will have the early warning you need to look outside the window, and figure out what is going on.
And if you've killed a cop, what's on that DVR will likely not matter because the DA and judge will suppress it and not allow it to be admitted in court.

The good news is, you'll be a cop killa' so you'll have some cred in the joint and life will be a little easier on you.

blacksheep
12-26-2009, 3:46 PM
[QUOTE][I believe the term is " Better judged by 12 then carried by 6 ". sometimes you only have a split second, make use of it./QUOTE]

Personaly, I'd rather be dead than spend life in prison.

Agree, prison is no place for a normal citizen. But shoot a copper and chances are you wont live to see a jury.

The Director
12-26-2009, 6:41 PM
This discussion all boils down to...what do you do.

Here are the facts.

1. Cops can and have executed no knock warrants at the wrong address
2. Cops sometimes yell "POLICE" as they are busting through the door
3. Home invaders are for real, and active in many parts of the country
4. Home invaders have also yelled "POLICE" as they barge in

See how similar these scenarios are???? Deductive reasoning would allow us to reach the following conclusion:

If you are not currently a felon, doing something illegal, or are otherwise in a situation that there is no possible way you are under a criminal investigation...i.e. you are a law abiding citizen....your course of action is simple.

You must shoot. Not shooting could lead to much, much worse. I don't have the facts to back it up but my gut tells me you are statistically far more likely to be home invaded than have a no knock warrant served on your home in error. Just a hunch.

Any questions??

Cokebottle
12-26-2009, 6:56 PM
my gut tells me you are statistically far more likely to be home invaded than have a no knock warrant served on your home in error. Just a hunch.
Agreed.

Obviously, there are things that would make it more likely for you to be hit with a mistaken no-knock warrant:

Short time at the residence, with "questionable" previous tenants/owners.
Known questionable activity in the neighborhood... OR in an alternate neighborhood with similar addresses (you live at 123 E Main, 123 W Main is where the crackhouse is).

The Director
12-26-2009, 7:16 PM
Agreed.

Obviously, there are things that would make it more likely for you to be hit with a mistaken no-knock warrant:

Short time at the residence, with "questionable" previous tenants/owners.
Known questionable activity in the neighborhood... OR in an alternate neighborhood with similar addresses (you live at 123 E Main, 123 W Main is where the crackhouse is).


I do get an alarming amount of mail for a different address, though. I live in this tract that had all the streets similarly named......just to be cute. I keep getting the guy's mail from the next street over, cause either the mailman in lazy or drunk (don't know which).

I'll probably get his damned no knock too! :eek::eek::D

Seesm
12-26-2009, 7:19 PM
No knocks are dangerous for homeowners and LEO imho anyway...

Sionadi
12-26-2009, 7:26 PM
Keep shooting till someone yells "police" or you get killed.

professorhard
12-26-2009, 7:28 PM
Keep shooting till someone yells "police" or you get killed.

Criminal home invaders yell police all the time.

GaryV
12-26-2009, 7:35 PM
I do get an alarming amount of mail for a different address, though. I live in this tract that had all the streets similarly named......just to be cute. I keep getting the guy's mail from the next street over, cause either the mailman in lazy or drunk (don't know which).

I'll probably get his damned no knock too! :eek::eek::D

Even better - the only difference between my street and the next one is "street" vs. "court", and the guy who moved into the house on the next street with the same number as mine was a registered sex offender. Fortunately (for me), he was recently re-arrested.

JDoe
12-26-2009, 7:40 PM
Acknowledging this is probably a no-win scenario, Legislature has both sides covered:
PC 196 Homicide is justifiable when committed by public officers and those acting by their command in their aid and assistance, either--

1.In obedience to any judgment of a competent Court; or,

2.When necessarily committed in overcoming actual resistance to the execution of some legal process, or in the discharge of any other legal duty; or,

3.When necessarily committed in retaking felons who have been rescued or have escaped, or when necessarily committed in arresting persons charged with felony, and who are fleeing from justice or resisting such arrest. and PC 197

Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:

1.When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,

2.When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or,

3.When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed; or,

4.When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.Breaking in is certainly violent -197(4)- and no-knock is very likely 196(2). My impression is that in these kinds of circumstances, LEOs are likely to get the better of the legal angle.

A thoroughly rotten problem.

Yes sir it seems like Californians are screwed so long as the violent entry to their residence is lawful (something they can't know in the heat of the moment) it appears to be impossible to commit a justifiable homicide.

bigstick61
12-26-2009, 8:51 PM
In that case the law needs to be changed (but this is Cali, so...). No-knock warrants should be virtually eliminated; there are very few situations where it is justifiable to use from a moral perspective, and those types of warrants even in those situations must face the absolute strictest scrutiny. And cops engaged in such activities should ensure that they are very easily identified as such, and there is no good reason for them to wear a mask. People are most justified in equating an armed man in a mask with a bad guy.

The Director
12-26-2009, 8:55 PM
Even better - the only difference between my street and the next one is "street" vs. "court", and the guy who moved into the house on the next street with the same number as mine was a registered sex offender. Fortunately (for me), he was recently re-arrested.

Wow......just wow!:eek:

cbn620
12-26-2009, 9:04 PM
I'm not a criminal, I have nothing illegal in my house. I do not engage in illegal activities. My family is in my house, and don't engage in illegal activities. The police have no justification for coming thru my door no-knock, warrant or not.

So anyone busting down my door are either criminals, rogue government agents specifically out to murder me, or dumb lazy cops pumped up to murder me.....too bad, sucks when you don't do your job right.

Anyone busts through my door, I'm taking out as many as I can, as quickly as I can....

“…At what exact point then, should one resist the communists?”
“How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family...?”
“Or, if during periods of mass arrests people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand.
….The police…. would have quickly suffered a shortage of officers …and notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt."
(The Gulag Archipelago)
-Alexandr Solzhenitsyn- Nobel Prize winner, 11 year survivor of the Soviet concentration camps.

Common sense, legislative action, court action, or a sufficient number of dead government agents are the only solutions to this government-created problem.

The two quotes you bolded are from the chapter on arrest, and have to do with the specific problem in the Soviet Union of people being shipped off to the Gulags. Not cops in the U.S. serving at least pseudo-legal drug warrants. The issue Solzhenitsyn raised was that there should have been armed resistance to a concerted government effort to capture, imprison and sometimes kill citizens without any trial. Please, I agree that we have a problem and that this sort of thing is happening here in the U.S. in some cases but the situation of no knock drug warrants, as bad as it is, is incomparable to the situation Solzhenitsyn describes in his book.

In Soviet Russia no one ever heard from you, and you probably ended up dead somewhere. There was no warrant. Here in America, today, you will be taken down to the station and booked, and will be given representation. It's kind of like Godwin's law here. I guess someone has to make the appeal to compare our situation with the most extreme of situations, and then anyone who disagrees that spilled milk by comparison doesn't equal the Holocaust must be naive.

Matt C
12-26-2009, 9:32 PM
In Soviet Russia no one ever heard from you, and you probably ended up dead somewhere.

Yeah now they just hold a press conference and call you a wannabe terrorist. But yeah, we are not at the Soviet level, probably never will be. Hell, even in "1984" they pretended you had rights.

professorhard
12-26-2009, 9:40 PM
Just make sure the points of entry in your house are secure to the level that you will have enough time to arm yourself with a rifle to confront them.

sholling
12-26-2009, 10:31 PM
Let's not forget that there are three kinds of tragedies brought to us by no-knock warrants - none of which is justified by any size drug bust.

The homeowner killed by police while thinking he or she is defending their family from masked thugs.
The family raped, robbed and/or murdered because because the family hesitated at the sound of criminals yelling "police search warrant". This is an increasingly common tactic used by home invaders.
A good police officer killed or maimed by a law abiding family member thinking he/she is defending home and family from masked thugs.

There is simply no drug bust important enough to risk any of the above. Yelling "police warrant" over an amplified system and giving the home owner time to confirm it really is the police should be the law. The law should also require the officers be in full distinctive police uniform and ban masks.

Meplat
12-26-2009, 10:49 PM
And your little dog too. If it is MY dark room in my house I have a right to defend myself and my family. Anyone can shout 'police, search warrant. I may be dead but I'll be right. A man who has never found anything worth dieing for is not fit to live.

Isn't one of the aspects of a "good shoot" identification of the target?

Shooting anyone in a dark room is not a good idea.

Cokebottle
12-26-2009, 10:55 PM
I agree completely....especially with giving time to confirm their identity and banning masks. All three items listed are horrible, and there's the possibility of more than one coming from a single no-knock.
Absolutely... #1 will most likely follow #3.

Meplat
12-26-2009, 11:00 PM
It would play out that the person would spend life in prison, regardless of what the facts are or if his actions were reasonable or not. Right or wrong, that's how the bulk of these cases have gone.


Nope! Keep shooting until you have neutralized all threats, or they have killed you.

Just the advice of an old man who does not give a **** any more.

Meplat
12-26-2009, 11:09 PM
It is sad that you need to go to these lengths.

If you have nothing cops would need a search warrant for, why would you assume it was in fact the Police and not someone performing a Home Invasion? Maybe someone who knows you have multiple Firearms??
I have massive Steel doors on every door of my house, and I highly doubt that a single person, let alone a small group of people would be able to remove it without me having time to figure out the who, why, what etc... I also have camera's, Home Security System for all doors and windows, motions sensors through out including in the Attic, motion sensor lights on all 4 sides. If I saw 20 guys and black armored trucks, I obviously wont assume its a Home Invasion.

Meplat
12-26-2009, 11:19 PM
This only assures the first guy through the door that you will hesitate. Not a good idea if you want to end this madness.

No idea, no comment. I'm responding entirely in kind to the original scenario. Obviously no knock warrants are a nasty game no matter what way you slice it. I'm in the back bedroom, I hear door break, I'm coming out with shotgun to see what it is and make the decision as to whether I should shoot it or not, all in mere seconds. Their guns are at the ready and if this is "armed and highly dangerous" kind of policing I will be shot. Whether I am armed or not, there is a chance I will be shot. No knock warrants go bad all the time, especially when coupled with the "wrong house" dynamic. I clearly oppose no knock warrants, my point is not that it is unethical to shoot something you thought was trying to kill you. My point is I don't shoot at bumps in the night, even big ones, and then ask all my questions later.

Meplat
12-26-2009, 11:47 PM
If you don't have a dog get one. For 400,000 years they have lain at the mouth of the cave.


No, that's not what I'm saying in the slightest my friend. OP posted a purely hypothetical situation of what I am assuming is door breaks, you shoot before door hits ground. Sorry but I'm not going to do that. I did not say I will have my gun trained on police. I am not engaging in that fantasy. The entire hypothetical is by its very nature pure fantasy, in that you're waiting there with a gun trained on the door when it breaks; that is the only way you could shoot as fast as the OP describes. I'm saying I am not going to shoot at something when I have no idea if it's even human, i.e. a door opening/breaking.

Please don't misjudge my statements.

Meplat
12-27-2009, 12:03 AM
Most likely you will die at the scene.

Yes but at least some of the officers will also. That gives sane officers an incentive to oppose these tactics.

Meplat
12-27-2009, 12:06 AM
Being dead right is not a satisfactory situation.

Acknowledging this is probably a no-win scenario, Legislature has both sides covered:
PC 196 and PC 197

Breaking in is certainly violent -197(4)- and no-knock is very likely 196(2). My impression is that in these kinds of circumstances, LEOs are likely to get the better of the legal angle.

A thoroughly rotten problem.

Meplat
12-27-2009, 12:17 AM
Being legally right is of little comfort when you have a cranium full of 00 buckshot. :43:

Acknowledging this is probably a no-win scenario, Legislature has both sides covered:
PC 196 and PC 197

Breaking in is certainly violent -197(4)- and no-knock is very likely 196(2). My impression is that in these kinds of circumstances, LEOs are likely to get the better of the legal angle.

A thoroughly rotten problem.

Meplat
12-27-2009, 4:33 AM
Yes. It's an absolute no-win for the resident. If the guy survives he will be charged and serve a long long sentence, right or wrong.


The secret is to not survive. Sometimes it's good to be old.:43:

thomasanelson
12-27-2009, 4:45 AM
We live in a Totalitarian / Authoritarian state....both California and the U.S. Your freedom of self defense in a myth at least as it pertains to the government. The only justifiable reason "ever" for a no knock warrant is if a life is believed to be in eminent danger. This notion of law enforcement needing the upper hand for non-life threatening situations is pure authoritarian B.S. that we have colectively bought into as a society. "1984" is not coming...it is here.

Meplat
12-27-2009, 4:58 AM
Yep. So, take as many with you as you can.

[QUOTE][I believe the term is " Better judged by 12 then carried by 6 ". sometimes you only have a split second, make use of it./QUOTE]

Personaly, I'd rather be dead than spend life in prison.

Meplat
12-27-2009, 5:06 AM
Might as well keep shooting even after they yell "police". At that point your only hope it that they are lying.

Keep shooting till someone yells "police" or you get killed.

VegasND
12-27-2009, 6:03 AM
We live in a Totalitarian / Authoritarian state....both California and the U.S. Your freedom of self defense in a myth at least as it pertains to the government. The only justifiable reason "ever" for a no knock warrant is if a life is believed to be in eminent danger. This notion of law enforcement needing the upper hand for non-life threatening situations is pure authoritarian B.S. that we have colectively bought into as a society. "1984" is not coming...it is here.
Unfortunately, many refuse to face ^this^ fact. Start keeping track of the "How much more will people stand for..." comments in blogs you read. I'm afraid the American people are more docile and submissive than any of us wish to believe.

Kyle1886
12-27-2009, 7:39 AM
The potential deadly "game" of "swatting" insigated by some folks is also increasing nation wide. Google "Swatting" to learn more. (The act of calling 911 and reporting, hostage, etc. situation at a certain address...) Gives me more reason to be friends with my neighbors.
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From: Wikipedia:

History and current status
Swatting has its origins in prank calls to emergency services. Increasing sophistication of the techniques employed and the objectives, notably attempts to direct response units of particular types, and in particular attempts to cause SWAT teams to be dispatched to particular locations, spawned the term swatting. The term may have been coined by the FBI, which investigates these activities in the United States or US-related.

Techniques
Caller ID spoofing, social engineering, prank call and phone phreaking techniques may be combined. 911 systems (including telephony and human operators) have been tricked by calls placed from cities hundreds of miles away.

Two examples: using a service that permits people to call using a spoofed caller-id, the prankster uses the phone number of the victim, calls the police and pretends there is a hostage situation. Other possibility; prankster signs up for internet-based phone VOIP service in the victim's area code, signs on to the website of the VOIP provider, and registers the victim's address as theirs for 911, then calls 911 and again, misinforms the police that there is a hostage situation.
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AndrewMendez
12-27-2009, 12:00 PM
Just make sure the points of entry in your house are secure to the level that you will have enough time to arm yourself with a rifle to confront them.

Or just hide a rifle near your door! Better yet...both

Californio
12-27-2009, 3:04 PM
Cops don't go to Law School - Judges do - Judges sign warrants.

When Law Schools start focusing on a course of Study that spotlights the Fiduciary responsibility that Barristers have to the Constitution instead of social engineering then it will change, before then it will only get worse.

Think about it how many practicing lawyers are the "Right People" and really hold the Constitution in the High Regard it demands.

You do not see all the lawyers in Congress worrying about the Constitutionality of forcing mandatory Health Care or other such laws on the People.

The so sue me attitude, has eroded the Republic, no law should be passed when the passers know it violates the Constitution but it happens daily. Every care and consideration should be taken by the Legislative Branch to only pass Constitutional laws and when honest mistakes are made the SCOTUS makes a correction. The crap with the Commerce Clause is an outright joke.

No Knock is an affront to the Constitution and the founders. No Knock is what the Red Coats pulled on the Colonists.

We are going backwards not forwards.

Kid Stanislaus
12-27-2009, 3:53 PM
I'm just saying in the OP's particular scenario of "door busts open, time to ninja off a couple shots from the 12 gauge before I realize what I'm shooting at" is not, in my opinion, an ethical shoot until the threat is identified.

However, we ARE dealing with an extremely fast breaking situation and failure to shoot could very well cost one his/her life. As I see it (I'm sure the courts do not agree) the police have a RESPONSIBILITY to make sure they have the right residence before bust'n in. Would any REASONABLE PERSON under the same circumstances think his/her life was in danger?

Theseus
12-27-2009, 9:10 PM
It used to be completely legal for you to resist a false arrest, with deadly force is necessary. I say we make that the case once again.

I have faith however that America is showing strong signs of fixing itself.

nobody_special
12-28-2009, 12:06 AM
I don't share your faith, Theseus. If you shoot a police officer engaged in a wrong-address raid, you will almost certainly die in prison. I think the odds of being killed at the scene are actually not too high, judging from the cases I've read about.

This is wrong, of course, but the legislature and courts will never provide a remedy. The police impose the government's will by force, and government is averse to any resistance which might undermine it's power. If people are allowed to forcefully resist against agents of the government, and especially if such actions can be vindicated, that undermines government legitimacy and control.

The same argument holds for the "resisting unlawful arrest (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=253223)" thread. In a free society, it should be legal, as it once was; however the legislature cannot allow it. Supposedly there are judicial remedies, but as we've seen elsewhere (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=253083) those are a joke. That is to be expected when one is forced to rely on the government to remedy it's own criminal mistakes.

Theseus, you're a great example of how the government will abuse the legal system to persecute someone who wishes to be on equal footing with police, in terms of self-protection tools. It's the same rationale.

I'm not involved in criminal enterprise, so there is no legitimate reason for police to raid my home. If any group of people knock down my door and enter my house, I be shooting until the intruders are down, or until they flee.

Ron-Solo
12-28-2009, 9:45 AM
"No Knock" warrants are EXTREMELY RARE and require extensive justification to the magistrate.

Noting to worry about for most. I've seen one in 31 years and it involved a Columbian Cartel, multi agency task force, helicopter assaults, etc.

Don't lose any sleep over it.

nicki
12-28-2009, 10:07 AM
Non Knock warrants may be rare, but if you are the one whom the police agencies accidently raid, it doesn't matter.

One of my coworker's homes was raided accidently by the San Jose Police Department. I told her she should file a civil rights lawsuit, but her and her family were terrorized and they didn't want to make waves, so they did nothing.

It was a wrong address error and in her case no one owned guns in the house so fortunately no one was shot.

It was a "Drug Raid" btw.

This drug war is destroying all of our rights, and if we continue down this path it will only get worse.

Expect increases in No Knocks and mistakes and innocent victims.

Nicki

Maestro Pistolero
12-28-2009, 11:08 AM
It used to be completely legal for you to resist a false arrest, with deadly force is necessary. I say we make that the case once again.

False arrest is rarely a threat on your life. Lethal force is, and ought to be reserved for preservation of life, IMO. A rogue cop using excessive force is another matter entirely. Since the limits of such errant behavior cannot be predicted in advance during an attack, I think fear of one's life is reasonable, and should be a permissible defense in court.

Maestro Pistolero
12-28-2009, 11:10 AM
Example: If an officer comes up to me on the street, and shoots my girlfriend, or even my leashed, controlled, dog without provocation, then turns his weapon on me, I'm diving for cover, and treating this like any other lethal attack. Since the Officer in question has already demonstrated an unreasonable use of force, I can only assume ill will, and must act accordingly.

Matt C
12-28-2009, 2:00 PM
"No Knock" warrants are EXTREMELY RARE and require extensive justification to the magistrate.

Noting to worry about for most. I've seen one in 31 years and it involved a Columbian Cartel, multi agency task force, helicopter assaults, etc.

Don't lose any sleep over it.

Tell that to Judge that signed off on the one in my case.

The Director
12-28-2009, 2:37 PM
Tell that to Judge that signed off on the one in my case.

BWO - I recall reading the threads on you ordeal but couldn't dig up what I was looking for....

Could you briefly describe the way the no knock went? I know the reasons why, just don't recall how the event went down.

Matt C
12-28-2009, 2:42 PM
BWO - I recall reading the threads on you ordeal but couldn't dig up what I was looking for....

Could you briefly describe the way the no knock went? I know the reasons why, just don't recall how the event went down.

As posted earlier in this thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3548987&postcount=43

Meplat
12-28-2009, 2:55 PM
True "no-Knocks" may be rare. However, dynamic entry with multiple people screaming at the same tim, knocking down doors, shooting the family dog, and advancing upon groggy family members is not. The difference is only a split second, starting from a sound sleep. It is actually a distinction without a difference.

"No Knock" warrants are EXTREMELY RARE and require extensive justification to the magistrate.

Noting to worry about for most. I've seen one in 31 years and it involved a Columbian Cartel, multi agency task force, helicopter assaults, etc.

Don't lose any sleep over it.

Meplat
12-28-2009, 3:05 PM
I don't share your faith, Theseus. If you shoot a police officer engaged in a wrong-address raid, you will almost certainly die in prison. I think the odds of being killed at the scene are actually not too high, judging from the cases I've read about.

.

To a very large degree the outcome is up to you. I would rather die fighting than in prison. :43:

ilbob
12-28-2009, 3:19 PM
You want to deal with this problem in a reasonable way the answer is simple. No more no knock warrants for any reason. Cops knock on the door and give the people inside a reasonable amount of time to wake up, get dressed, and come to the door - say 3-5 minutes.

You would need to do this by legislation and it just won't happen because once in a blue moon there really is a need for a no knock.

Toolbox X
12-28-2009, 3:39 PM
Your best defense against this situation is to make sure you are 100% sure of your target before you fire in self defense.

Reading the "Do people keep a bedside gun?" thread I see lots of "ready to rock" type comments. That is stupid.

You better identify EXACTLY who and what you are shooting at BEFORE you pull that trigger. I don't claim to know exactly how all of these real life tragedies went down, but I can tell you with absolute certainty, should I suddenly find myself confronted with a police SWAT team, my first reaction would NOT be to shoot my gun at them.

aileron
12-28-2009, 7:35 PM
Weren't the founders really pissed about this kind of thing?

Writs of assistance were the big spark of this whole thing, over smuggled goods right?

Writs of assistance were first authorized by an act of the English Parliament in 1660 (12 Charles 2 c. 29),[4] and were issued by the Court of Exchequer to help customs officials search for smuggled goods.

Drugs are smuggled goods.

John Adams stating about general warrants that it was “as the spark in which originated the American Revolution.”

Also in the Virginia Declarations of Rights we have...


"That popos warrant, whereby any officer or messenger may be commanded to search suspected places without evidence of a fact committed, or to seize any person or persons not named, or whose offense is not particularly described and supported by evidence, are grievous and oppressive and ought not to be granted."

When I read that, I think about BWO and what happened to him... also what has been written from CATO about no knock warrants and how innocent people have died. Its happening enough to start pissing people off.

Sounds like we are heading back down the road where the fight started.

Meplat
12-28-2009, 8:18 PM
Your best defense against this situation is to make sure you are 100% sure of your target before you fire in self defense.

Reading the "Do people keep a bedside gun?" thread I see lots of "ready to rock" type comments. That is stupid.

You better identify EXACTLY who and what you are shooting at BEFORE you pull that trigger. I don't claim to know exactly how all of these real life tragedies went down, but I can tell you with absolute certainty, should I suddenly find myself confronted with a police SWAT team, my first reaction would NOT be to shoot my gun at them.

You will come around eventually. I hope it is not too late.

Live free or die!:43:

Meplat
12-28-2009, 8:47 PM
What need?

You want to deal with this problem in a reasonable way the answer is simple. No more no knock warrants for any reason. Cops knock on the door and give the people inside a reasonable amount of time to wake up, get dressed, and come to the door - say 3-5 minutes.

You would need to do this by legislation and it just won't happen because once in a blue moon there really is a need for a no knock.

bambam8d1
12-28-2009, 8:51 PM
Your best defense against this situation is to make sure you are 100% sure of your target before you fire in self defense.

Reading the "Do people keep a bedside gun?" thread I see lots of "ready to rock" type comments. That is stupid.

You better identify EXACTLY who and what you are shooting at BEFORE you pull that trigger. I don't claim to know exactly how all of these real life tragedies went down, but I can tell you with absolute certainty, should I suddenly find myself confronted with a police SWAT team, my first reaction would NOT be to shoot my gun at them.

Just to play devils advocate... what if four or five thugs go to a surplus store, buy some black tactical crap and come banging on your door yelling "police.. search warrant", and you come let them in... then what?

GaryV
12-28-2009, 9:29 PM
While true "no-knock" warrants aren't that common (I wouldn't say "rare" - according to the CATO Institute there are over 40,000 a year), the SCOTUS ruling in Wilson v. Arkansas allows officers on the scene to determine if entering without knocking is called for, even without a "no-knock" warrant, a situation that is even MORE stupid and dangerous, given that there is then NO oversight into how these "no-knock" entries are decided upon. Any officer serving a warrant can simply decide that the subject is likely to destroy evidence, and choose, on his own authority, to carry out a "no-knock" ("tactical") entry, even if he does not have a "no-knock" warrant.

blackbox
12-28-2009, 10:57 PM
The value of a DVR CCTV system, and dogs is priceless. You will have the early warning you need to look outside the window, and figure out what is going on.

Unfortunately, the dog is almost guaranteed to be on the losing end of the battle. What happened to the [b]Mayor[b] of this Baltimore town is despicable:
Long Version (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/23/AR2009012302935_pf.html)
short version (http://reason.com/blog/2008/07/31/mayors-dogs-killed-in-drug-rai)

professorhard
12-28-2009, 11:05 PM
OK to booby trap your front door?

AndrewMendez
12-29-2009, 12:56 AM
"No Knock" warrants are EXTREMELY RARE and require extensive justification to the magistrate.

Noting to worry about for most. I've seen one in 31 years and it involved a Columbian Cartel, multi agency task force, helicopter assaults, etc.

Don't lose any sleep over it.

In the last 15 Years, I have personally seen 6 in my neighborhood, and they where at 6 different houses. When I was 12 years old, my parents where picking me up from the babysitters, at about 1230 am, 2 vans pull in front of us, and 3 officers hold us at gun point, well they served a No Knock Search warrant at a house 3 doors down, until after they had cleared the house. Turned out the person they where looking for, had moved out months prior (according to a family LEO). it Terrorized the hell out of me for months, the image continued to play in my head. Maybe I just have impeccable timing, and no I dont live in a bad area.

AndrewMendez
12-29-2009, 12:58 AM
Unfortunately, the dog is almost guaranteed to be on the losing end of the battle. What happened to the [b]Mayor[b] of this Baltimore town is despicable:
Long Version (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/23/AR2009012302935_pf.html)
short version (http://reason.com/blog/2008/07/31/mayors-dogs-killed-in-drug-rai)

I think he was referring to the dog being an early warning that someone is outside your house.

snowboarder
12-29-2009, 1:54 AM
No knock warrants belong in the repertoire of agencies like the Gestapo and the Stasi. They don't belong in this country and we all have seen the consequences of the militarisation of our local police forces.

The other day I was driving to the Frys in Manhattan Beach and a motorcycle officer pulled up next to me and he had in full view an AR-15 strapped on the bike. Not only did it look ludicrous but he looked like a menace on the road.

http://scottfredrickson.com/wp-content/uploads/523_ar15/ar15.jpg

There also seems to be a problem with local LE apologizing when someone gets their door kicked in and it's the wrong house. Usually, if the owner even survives the illegal attack, he is given the bird and told "tough luck". Then to add insult to injury the offending intruders are given medals for their "bravery".

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5484185&page=1

The long term losers in this will be LE. They are already losing the respect of their local communities at an abysmal rate and this kind of nonsense doesn't help.

SB

GrizzlyGuy
12-29-2009, 7:15 AM
When I read that, I think about BWO and what happened to him... also what has been written from CATO about no knock warrants and how innocent people have died. Its happening enough to start pissing people off.

Sounds like we are heading back down the road where the fight started.

Yes, here is the Cato study (http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/balko_whitepaper_2006.pdf) from 2006. Very disturbing, but at least people are starting to wake up and oppose these abuses. Zogby did this poll (http://stopthedrugwar.org/files/zogby_raids_question.pdf) in 2007:

Q: Do you agree or disagree that police doing routine drug investigations in non-emergency situations should make use of aggressive entry tactics such as battering down doors, setting off flash-bang grenades, or conducting searches in the middle of the night?

Results: 65.8% disagreed

Hopefully that widespread opposition can be translated into political action in the future.

ilbob
12-29-2009, 8:32 AM
it Terrorized the hell out of me for months, the image continued to play in my head.

You do realize that is a huge part of the reason raids are carried out in this manner. And it advances the cause even more if they get the wrong people now and then - just adds to the terror.

The answer is to get the legislature to make no knock raids a felony, and in the interim, criminal juries stop convicting people who are the victims of these kind of raids, and civil juries start awarding money out of the pocket of individual police officers that engage in these kind of raids.

Of course none of this will happen because enough people believe (or at least accept) the lies about this being an officer safety thing when it is mostly not. In any case, the constitution does not have an officer safety exception in it that I can find.