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wkd4496
12-25-2009, 10:23 AM
This took place on Wednesday December 23rd around 4PM at the crossing of HWY39 and East Fork Road. (Near Burro Canyon.)

My 4 friends and I were just leaving Burro Canyon Shooting Park. I had taken them up there to shoot for their first time. We had a blast with my legal AR-15.

We were driving when we got pulled over by LASD.

Two officers approached us and told us we were driving suspiciously. (My friend wanted to be courteous and let them pass so he pulled over.)

I just wanted us to get home and out of the hills before it got dark so I cooperated with them and and answered all their questions.

There's Officer A and officer B

Officer A asked what kind of gun was I shooting, I told him a long rifle. He asked what kind and I said AR15 and he gave me a surprised look. He asked where it was and I told him in the bed of the truck in a rifle bag. He went to take a look at it for twenty or so minutes.

He came back to me and ask why isn't it registered.
I told him it doesn't need to be registered, its a long rifle and not a assault weapon.
He said it has to be registered because it's a semi-auto rifle.
I them told him again that it doesn't need to be registered because it's a legal long rifle.

Officer B comes up to me and tells me that We'll be on our way soon.

Officer A comes back and tells me that he is not sure the laws with my AR so he asks me to volunteer and ride with them back to the station while they "check the books". I asked if I don't have to volunteer can we go? He replied if I don't volunteer he is going to arrest me on probably cause that I have an assault weapon.

So I volunteer to ride with them.

As I am in the car, Officer A and B are in a bit of an argument.

Officer B owns four AR15s like mine and knows about the bullet button and how my rifle does not need to be registered, plus all the other laws pertaining to them.

Eventually we arrive at the station. I wait there for about an hour untill Officer A comes out and tells me I'm free to go.


For me, I need to carry the ar15 flowchart for now on.


Opinions, concerns?


Any advice for future reference you guys can give me and anyone else who's reading?

bodger
12-25-2009, 10:28 AM
What kind of gun were you shooting? None of that officer's business.

I'd recommend a locked container for the rifles (and I realize it isn't necessary for unloaded long guns). And exercise your 5th. Don't tell them a damn thing. Then where is his PC?
"Driving suspiciously"??? more like leaving a shooting range and these cops knowing you probably had firearms.

There should be no LEOs that don't know the basics of what constitutes an AW. No excuse for that in my opinion.

This took place on Wednesday December 23rd around 4PM at the crossing of HWY39 and East Fork Road. (Near Burro Canyon.)

My 4 friends and I were just leaving Burro Canyon Shooting Park. I had taken them up there to shoot for their first time. We had a blast with my legal AR-15.

We were driving when we got pulled over by LASD.

Two officers approached us and told us we were driving suspiciously. (My friend wanted to be courteous and let them pass so he pulled over.)

I just wanted us to get home and out of the hills before it got dark so I cooperated with them and and answered all their questions.

There's Officer A and officer B

Officer A asked what kind of gun was I shooting, I told him a long rifle. He asked what kind and I said AR15 and he gave me a surprised look. He asked where it was and I told him in the bed of the truck in a rifle bag. He went to take a look at it for twenty or so minutes.

He came back to me and ask why isn't it registered.
I told him it doesn't need to be registered, its a long rifle and not a assault weapon.
He said it has to be registered because it's a semi-auto rifle.
I them told him again that it doesn't need to be registered because it's a legal long rifle.

Officer B comes up to me and tells me that We'll be on our way soon.

Officer A comes back and tells me that he is not sure the laws with my AR so he asks me to volunteer and ride with them back to the station while they "check the books". I asked if I don't have to volunteer can we go? He replied if I don't volunteer he is going to arrest me on probably cause that I have an assault weapon.

So I volunteer to ride with them.

As I am in the car, Officer A and B are in a bit of an argument.

Officer B owns four AR15s like mine and knows about the bullet button and how my rifle does not need to be registered, plus all the other laws pertaining to them.

Eventually we arrive at the station. I wait there for about an hour untill Officer A comes out and tells me I'm free to go.


For me, I need to carry the ar15 flowchart for now on.


Opinions, concerns?


Any advice for future reference you guys can give me and anyone else who's reading?

wkd4496
12-25-2009, 10:35 AM
There should be no LEOs that don't know the basics of what constitutes an AW. No excuse for that in my opinion.

100% Agreed on that.

SikDMAX
12-25-2009, 10:37 AM
Hmmm..... definitely not cool, but better then some outcomes Ive read here. Not sure what to say.

snobord99
12-25-2009, 10:38 AM
Next time, ask for two things. His shift supervisor's name and his badge number.

Vtec44
12-25-2009, 10:40 AM
Ignorance of the laws is not an excuse, apparently that's not applicable if you're a cop.

On another note, it's cool that officer B knows the laws and owns several AR15. At least now, hopefully, officer A is educated and that he won't hassle other people.

SteveH
12-25-2009, 10:41 AM
Damn!

I have often wondered if cops stake out gun ranges and try to profile people leaving hoping for an easy felon in possession bust. Do you or your friends look like ex-cons/bangers or something?

I've never heard of a cop wanting you to come back to the station so he can review the law. Hasnt he ever heard of quick code publishing?

Quiet
12-25-2009, 10:44 AM
Print out all three of the Calguns assault weapons flowcharts.
Put all three in an envelope.
Address envelope with ATTN: Officer A.
Mail the envelope to the substation you went to.

bodger
12-25-2009, 10:45 AM
Yep, not a horror story outcome like many we've seen here.

But definitely drives home the value of the policy of not talking to the police. You don't have to, it's your right not to, and in many cases if you do, it gives the LEOs an advantage that they are not entitled to.

I keep all my guns unloaded and in locked containers when transporting, and covered in the back of my pick-up truck so all any cop sees if I get pulled over is a moving blanket with some 2X4s over it.

And all I am saying to a cop is "I am not making any statements sir".

They can proceed from there, and it won't be as easy for them as it would have been if I had told them I have guns in the vehicle.

I'm not saying you did anything wrong KennyCruz, I'm just saying what you said to police helped them, and did not help you.

If an LEO wants to hang me, the last thing I'm going to do is hand him a rope.

anthonyca
12-25-2009, 10:47 AM
This crap hast to stop. Is there anyhing that can be done?

lorax3
12-25-2009, 10:50 AM
Did he take you and your friends to the station or just you? Did the officer take your identification? (From what I read you were the non-driver)

Out of curiosity, was there a ten rd magazine in place? 10/30? No magazine?

If this happened again, would you have acted the same or had different responses/actions?

wkd4496
12-25-2009, 10:51 AM
Damn!

I have often wondered if cops stake out gun ranges and try to profile people leaving hoping for an easy felon in possession bust. Do you or your friends look like ex-cons/bangers or something?

I've never heard of a cop wanting you to come back to the station so he can review the law. Hasnt he ever heard of quick code publishing?

They were staking out, no doubt about that. If any of you have been to burro, the exit to East fork road has a little rest stop right across from it. So the cops are looking at you and you are looking right back at them as you leave.

I wouldn't think my friends look like ex cons or gangsters, the two in the front were wearing their Air force jackets. One asian, one white.

wkd4496
12-25-2009, 10:52 AM
Print out all three of the Calguns assault weapons flowcharts.
Put all three in an envelope.
Address envelope with ATTN: Officer A.
Mail the envelope to the substation you went to.

That's exactly what I am planning to do.

wkd4496
12-25-2009, 10:53 AM
Next time, ask for two things. His shift supervisor's name and his badge number.

I have and they will be hearing form me very soon along with some educational literature.

bodger
12-25-2009, 10:55 AM
This crap hast to stop. Is there anyhing that can be done?



I have that same frustration and when I read this kind of thing I want there to be publicity, and for the cops to be reprimanded and better educated so they will think twice about hassling law-abiding citizens.

But publicity does no good, most Californians read about the cops stopping someone and they had guns and immediately think the cops should be able to do whatever they want because the person with the gun must be a criminal, right?

And the LEO agencies don't seem to care that their actions lump law abiding gun owners in with criminals who possess illegal AWs. As long as they don't get sued, too bad for you. If you have a gun, you must be doing something wrong. Guilty until proven innocent.
Sometimes I feel like a criminal when I have my guns outside of my house. Just for having them. Especially my legally configured EBRs. It's ridiculous.

wkd4496
12-25-2009, 10:55 AM
Did he take you and your friends to the station or just you? Did the officer take your identification? (From what I read you were the non-driver)

Out of curiosity, was there a ten rd magazine in place? 10/30? No magazine?

If this happened again, would you have acted the same or had different responses/actions?


He took just me to the station while my friend followed.

He took my ID when we arrived to the station.

I had two 10rd mags two 10/30rd magazines with me. I explained to officer B that they were 10/30 and that was the end of it concerning the magazines.

BobB35
12-25-2009, 10:56 AM
This is typical for LEOs. From this and the other threads I would think people would start to get the point that LEOs, DAs and the such in large urban areas are NOT friends to gun owners for the most part. Go out into a rural area of this state and things change....

The quickest way to change this attitude would be to pass a law for the state that doesn't allow anyone to be exempted from a law passed for citizen. NO special treatment for LEO when it comes to firearms, cell phones, body armor anything. A lot would change quickly. Why don't we push for that?

SteveH
12-25-2009, 10:56 AM
I wouldn't think my friends look like ex cons or gangsters, the two in the front were wearing their Air force jackets. One asian, one white.

Airforce jacket? The reversable ones with the orange liner the skinheads like to wear? If so sounds like you guys were profiled.

Peter W Bush
12-25-2009, 10:57 AM
If you insist on answering the question "what kind of gun do you have," "AR 15" is the wrong answer. Just call it by what the manufacturer calls it i.e. "BCM SS410" but try not to use the words "AR 15, AK47, M4," etc...

wkd4496
12-25-2009, 10:59 AM
I have that same frustration and when I read this kind of thing I want there to be publicity, and for the cops to be reprimanded and better educated so they will think twice about hassling law-abiding citizens.

But publicity does no good, most Californians read about the cops stopping someone and they had guns and immediately think the cops should be able to do whatever they want because the person with the gun must be a criminal, right?

And the LEO agencies don't seem to care that their actions lump law abiding gun owners in with criminals who possess illegal AWs. As long as they don't get sued, too bad for you. If you have a gun, you must be doing something wrong. Guilty until proven innocent.
Sometimes I feel like a criminal when I have my guns outside of my house. Just for having them. Especially my legally configured EBRs. It's ridiculous.

Exactly, I felt so angry because I was being treated as a criminal when in fact I am working on joining LAPD and I'm a law abiding citizen like everyone else here. I told them that too, which is probably why they didn't arrest me at first.

SteveH
12-25-2009, 11:00 AM
If you insist on answering the question "what kind of gun do you have," "AR 15" is the wrong answer. Just call it by what the manufacturer calls it i.e. "BCM SS410" but try not to use the words "AR 15, AK47, M4," etc...

Good advise.

bodger
12-25-2009, 11:02 AM
This is typical for LEOs. From this and the other threads I would think people would start to get the point that LEOs, DAs and the such in large urban areas are NOT friends to gun owners for the most part. Go out into a rural area of this state and things change....

The quickest way to change this attitude would be to pass a law for the state that doesn't allow anyone to be exempted from a law passed for citizen. NO special treatment for LEO when it comes to firearms, cell phones, body armor anything. A lot would change quickly. Why don't we push for that?


They'll argue that it thwarts their ability to enforce the law and protect themselves and the sheeple will go along with it, most likely.

I always disassemble my EBRs, remove upper from lower completely, and take out the mags. Then lock them in a case and cover them.

If any LEO wants to use the fact that I am leaving a shooting range as an excuse to pull me over, they are going to need a lot more than my permission to find out anything other than my name and the fact that my license, registration and insurance is all current.

Sorry to rant, but this witch hunt against gun owners, especiallythose of us with legal AR15 rifles needs to cease.

Have you ever encountered an LEO and made it clear to them that you know your rights and you're not going to answer their questions?

They don't like it, but they damn sure respect it and choose their subsequent actions carefully. At least the ones in my case did.

wkd4496
12-25-2009, 11:02 AM
Airforce jacket? The reversable ones with the orange liner the skinheads like to wear? If so sounds like you guys were profiled.

Nope their all-around blue jackets that were issued to them.

4D5auto
12-25-2009, 11:05 AM
LE over steps their bounds, because they can! Any weak, Probable Cause ,is all they need to pull you over, even if the PC didn't exist! What upsets me most is, these so called Professionals are supposedly enforcing laws they themselves don't know, hence, Law Enforcement. In the real world, If I don't know my job, I'd be fired!
There should be ruling, if a LE Agency is found to be wrong, compensation should be made for time and expense the Defendant experienced!

Nessal
12-25-2009, 11:06 AM
Next time you need to do things a little bit different. There is no need for you to admit that you have firearms in your car. If they ask you if you have any guns in your vehicle, just say "I do not have anything illegal sir".


Btw, when it comes to guns; being honest will get you Effed most of the time.

SP1200
12-25-2009, 11:07 AM
Opinions, concerns?


Any advice for future reference you guys can give me and anyone else who's reading?

When he asked you what long gun, why on earth did you say "AR15"?
Unless your rifle is a Colt or Armalite Ar15 it's just an AR15 style rifle.

For example when an officer asked me what kind of long gun i had i said "Kaiser Defense Kr5" and he said have a nice day.

I hear of this all the time. People referring to their rifles as AR15's and it creates problems.

NiteQwill
12-25-2009, 11:09 AM
I got pulled over this year in the same area by LASO leaving Burro.

I took one of the curvy turns a little "fast." ;)

They (2 officers) asked for DL and Reg.

Came back and said, "How was shooting at the range?" I replied with, "Awesome!" Giving me my DL and reg back, "Drive safely and slow down, wouldn't want to scratch the guns in your trunk." :eek:

They let me go with a warning. :D

It's kind of hit or miss with LEOs. My suggestion is always be courteous and don't volunteer information unnecessarily.

wkd4496
12-25-2009, 11:10 AM
When he asked you what long gun, why on earth did you say "AR15"?
Unless your rifle is a Colt or Armalite Ar15 it's just an AR15 style rifle.

For example when an officer asked me what kind of long gun i had i said "Kaiser Defense Kr5" and he said have a nice day.

I hear of this all the time. People referring to their rifles as AR15's and it creates problems.

It was a first time mistake made by myself, which will not be happening again. I'm used to LEOs working with me(I tag along with LAPD pretty much every weekend.) so my guard was down.

bodger
12-25-2009, 11:11 AM
When he asked you what long gun, why on earth did you say "AR15"?
Unless your rifle is a Colt or Armalite Ar15 it's just an AR15 style rifle.

For example when an officer asked me what kind of long gun i had i said "Kaiser Defense Kr5" and he said have a nice day.

I hear of this all the time. People referring to their rifles as AR15's and it creates problems.


But you don't have to answer at all, and as I understand it, as soon as you tell an officer you have a gun in the vehicle, of any kind, you just gave them the ability to legally search your vehicle to determine if the gun is being transported legally, as in unloaded. Or unloaded and in a locked container if it's a handgun.

"All due respect officer, I am not making any statements and I am not giving consent to search."

Cokebottle
12-25-2009, 11:15 AM
If you insist on answering the question "what kind of gun do you have," "AR 15" is the wrong answer. Just call it by what the manufacturer calls it i.e. "BCM SS410" but try not to use the words "AR 15, AK47, M4," etc...
Exactly.

As the "right people" have mentioned, it is important that we not have any AK47 builds (or purchases) that are stamped "AK47"... AK47 is a named lower.
Likewise, AR15 is a named lower manufactured by Colt/Armalite, along with the Bushmaster XM15 and others.

Simply give him the name of the manufacturer of your upper or your lower and the caliber (avoiding NATO terms if possible)... "What kind? Just a Kaiser 223/308"

fairfaxjim
12-25-2009, 11:19 AM
This is typical for LEOs. From this and the other threads I would think people would start to get the point that LEOs, DAs and the such in large urban areas are NOT friends to gun owners for the most part. Go out into a rural area of this state and things change....

The general population of urban areas are also to blame. They generally have a great amount of fear and feelings of helplessness regarding violence, and gang violence particularly. The media feeds the frenzy by making every gang interaction look like the crime of the century. LE administrations get their budgets from local politicians, and local policitians get their election coffers from the local busineses and fatter cats in the locality they serve. These politicians and their mickey mouse police departments (that includes the LAPD) can't do a thing about gangs, so they have to choose something to key on that will make the electorate think they are accomplishing something - that key has become guns. LE admin has to be gun vigilantes to get budget money from the politicians. The new trainee LE's are taught that guns are bad, get them all. Pretty soon everybody believes that since the cops are on tv every night saying guns are bad, we gotta get them all, all the non gun owning public believes that is the key to their safety.

Yes, it is all a great big smoke and mirrors game, but then so was the Wizard of OZ.

The quickest way to change this attitude would be to pass a law for the state that doesn't allow anyone to be exempted from a law passed for citizen. NO special treatment for LEO when it comes to firearms, cell phones, body armor anything. A lot would change quickly. Why don't we push for that?

This won't really help anything. The vast majority of gun hating LE's aren't in the least concerned about this, they are not really gun hobbiests or 2A supporters. They are simply trained employess out doing what they were trained to do. Make the Admin look good by getting a lot of guns being confiscated shown on TV that night. This stuff rolls from the top down.

4D5auto
12-25-2009, 11:20 AM
Ignorance of the laws is not an excuse, apparently that's not applicable if you're a cop.



Like in Politics, A bribe for a service is OK, but in the real world, you go to jail!

bodger
12-25-2009, 11:22 AM
Exactly.

As the "right people" have mentioned, it is important that we not have any AK47 builds (or purchases) that are stamped "AK47"... AK47 is a named lower.
Likewise, AR15 is a named lower manufactured by Colt/Armalite, along with the Bushmaster XM15 and others.

Simply give him the name of the manufacturer of your upper or your lower and the caliber (avoiding NATO terms if possible)... "What kind? Just a Kaiser 223/308"


I know I'm whipping this hard, and this will be the last time I say it, but don't give them anything!

Avoid NATO terms???
Don't name anything. Your upper, your lower, your caliber, nothing. You have a legal right not to answer, and it's more likely that your answer will harm you rather than help you, so why give an LEO information about your firearms that they are not entitled to get from you?

What kind? The kind they need a warrant to find out about. Your silence will make them understand that too.

Make it easy for the cops and some of them will burn your arse.

4D5auto
12-25-2009, 11:23 AM
Damn!

I have often wondered if cops stake out gun ranges and try to profile people leaving hoping for an easy felon in possession bust.


Of course they do, just like they do at Bars to snag them self a drunk driver. Tho- that's illegal, they do it!

SP1200
12-25-2009, 11:24 AM
I got pulled over this year in the same area by LASO leaving Burro.

I took one of the curvy turns a little "fast." ;)

They (2 officers) asked for DL and Reg.

Came back and said, "How was shooting at the range?" I replied with, "Awesome!" Giving me my DL and reg back, "Drive safely and slow down, wouldn't want to scratch the guns in your trunk." :eek:

They let me go with a warning. :D

It's kind of hit or miss with LEOs. My suggestion is always be courteous and don't volunteer information unnecessarily.

Yea like saying you have an AR15! They have to assume its an AW!

SteveH
12-25-2009, 11:24 AM
Of course they do, just like they do at Bars to snag them self a drunk driver. Tho- that's illegal, they do it!

It's illegal to enforce CVC violation near bars?

Roadrunner
12-25-2009, 11:26 AM
Officer A comes back and tells me that he is not sure the laws with my AR so he asks me to volunteer and ride with them back to the station while they "check the books". I asked if I don't have to volunteer can we go? He replied if I don't volunteer he is going to arrest me on probably cause that I have an assault weapon.

So I volunteer to ride with them.

If you don't mind, I'd like to point out several failures here.

1. Officer A has no clue what he's talking about and was itching for an arrest regardless of what his more learned partner told him.

2. He threatened you with a false arrest, if you didn't comply with his less than legitimate demand.

3. You didn't ask for his supervisor right then and there.

4. You actually volunteered to go with him instead of calling his bluff.

5. After he finds out he really is wrong, he sends you on your way as if he was doing you a freaking favor.

If you don't right this wrong and at least file a complaint, this will be a complete failure on your part. There's a time to be polite and there's a time to assert yourself when talking to police. This was a time to assert yourself and tell him to go pound sand.

4D5auto
12-25-2009, 11:29 AM
This crap hast to stop. Is there anyhing that can be done?

Maybe there can be! It's up to the citizens of a state to get the required number of registered voters signatures to have a Proposal put on the Ballot! You would think a situation as this one and others that were and are much worse would fall under illegal search and seizure. restitution should then be made.

Jicko
12-25-2009, 11:29 AM
I just wanted us to get home and out of the hills before it got dark so I cooperated with them and and answered all their questions.

There's Officer A and officer B

Officer A asked what kind of gun was I shooting, I told him a long rifle. He asked what kind and I said AR15 and he gave me a surprised look.

Wrong answer. Not saying ANYTHING will get you home quicker!

Officer A: where are you coming from? <- That way.

Officer A: where are you going? <- That way.

Officer A: what kind of gun are you shooting? <- Why do you think that I was shooting? I have not done anything illegal, am I being detained? And am I free to go?

:D



For me, I need to carry the ar15 flowchart for now on.

Opinions, concerns?

Any advice for future reference you guys can give me and anyone else who's reading?

From day 1 back in 2005, I carry the actual penal code, CCR (back then, that's what it was called), AW ID guide, CA DOJ Stag's letter, etc.... with appropriate sections highlighted, with my range bag.

And then, I have now added the AW flowchart, the SacPD memo etc... (and I have copies to give out to people at the range, or to the cops, to take home if needed)

These will get them informed... :) and make the right decision

krushed
12-25-2009, 11:31 AM
Sorry to hear about your experience. Thanks for writing it up though. I find these posts helpful and educating. I had a LEO encounter yesterday.

I did a writeup/debrief of my own search experience (yesterday at LAX). Here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=252998

Ballistic043
12-25-2009, 11:32 AM
sounds like what happened to me. except both officers a and B were completely against AR15's.

"You see, these are the same weapons we carry in the back of our squad car. you can not have them, illegal! you see this flash hider? ILLEGAL! why isnt it registered!!, illegal!!!"

freaking wasting our time and theirs..

you got lucky. during my incident, all the cops on my side were young rookies. they have hardly the leverage as a 15 year veteran who swears that everything he says is right.

bodger
12-25-2009, 11:37 AM
From day 1 back in 2005, I carry the actual penal code, CCR (back then, that's what it was called), AW ID guide, CA DOJ Stag's letter, etc.... with appropriate sections highlighted, with my range bag.

And then, I have now added the AW flowchart, the SacPD memo etc... (and I have copies to give out to people at the range, or to the cops, to take home if needed)

These will get them informed... :) and make the right decision


I'm not quite that prepared, but from now on I will be. I keep the Sac PD memo in my range bag just in case I am approached by any LEOs at the range whilst I am firing my legally configured Bushmaster.

But that is all the info they are getting from me. If a cop wants to detain/arrest me for my legal firearms, they are going to have to break the law in the course of doing so.

In my opinion, it is the best way we can fight back against this. And make it easier for CGF to set things straight if and and when LEOs decide to violate my rights.

Roadrunner
12-25-2009, 11:43 AM
I found the AW flowchart, but where do you get the Sac PD memo and the appropriate laws regarding a legal EBR?

wkd4496
12-25-2009, 11:43 AM
One thing I forgot to mention, Officer A said and I quote:

"All semi-autos need to be registered."

NiteQwill
12-25-2009, 11:44 AM
I found the AW flowchart, but where do you get the Sac PD memo and the appropriate laws regarding a legal EBR?

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf

Roadrunner
12-25-2009, 11:45 AM
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf

Cool, thanks.

E Pluribus Unum
12-25-2009, 11:48 AM
Never cooperate. Never volunteer. Let them arrest you. The fact that one of the arresting officers owns rifles in the same exact configuration will help you in a civil rights lawsuit against the police department. That is the quickest way to effect change against law enforcement; unfortunately, you must sue them.

bodger
12-25-2009, 11:51 AM
One thing I forgot to mention, Officer A said and I quote:

"All semi-autos need to be registered."



This is why and how law abiding gunnies catch a bust. The cop doesn't know the law and arrests you and confiscates your weapon.

An overzealous DA runs with it, trying to bend the law in such a manner as to be able to make the charge stick.

A Public Defender who doesn't know the law either fails to mount a good defense. So an honest gunny with a legal firearm and not enough dough for a good lawyer pleads out and gets a criminal record and loss of gun rights.

All because a gun grabbing cop made up his own law in the field. And did it with information given to him at the time of the arrest that he wasn't entitled to in the first place.

Donations to CGF are like an insurance policy against a failed legal system.

Roadrunner
12-25-2009, 12:05 PM
So, are all of the laws mentioned in the Sac PD memo the only laws that anyone needs to know regarding legal OLL's and "assault rifles" (what a stupid name for a rifle)?

SteveH
12-25-2009, 12:28 PM
Glad i put my front plate back on before my last trip to Burrow! **** like this is why I drive sedans with a real trunk instead of trucks or hatchbacks.

bodger
12-25-2009, 12:32 PM
All I have is pick-up truck. That's why I unload, lock and cover.
Sometimes I wish I still had a sedan as a second car. "Gun car".

pullnshoot25
12-25-2009, 12:35 PM
This took place on Wednesday December 23rd around 4PM at the crossing of HWY39 and East Fork Road. (Near Burro Canyon.)

My 4 friends and I were just leaving Burro Canyon Shooting Park. I had taken them up there to shoot for their first time. We had a blast with my legal AR-15.

We were driving when we got pulled over by LASD.

Two officers approached us and told us we were driving suspiciously. (My friend wanted to be courteous and let them pass so he pulled over.)

I just wanted us to get home and out of the hills before it got dark so I cooperated with them and and answered all their questions.

There's Officer A and officer B

Officer A asked what kind of gun was I shooting, I told him a long rifle. He asked what kind and I said AR15 and he gave me a surprised look. He asked where it was and I told him in the bed of the truck in a rifle bag. He went to take a look at it for twenty or so minutes.

He came back to me and ask why isn't it registered.
I told him it doesn't need to be registered, its a long rifle and not a assault weapon.
He said it has to be registered because it's a semi-auto rifle.
I them told him again that it doesn't need to be registered because it's a legal long rifle.

Officer B comes up to me and tells me that We'll be on our way soon.

Officer A comes back and tells me that he is not sure the laws with my AR so he asks me to volunteer and ride with them back to the station while they "check the books". I asked if I don't have to volunteer can we go? He replied if I don't volunteer he is going to arrest me on probably cause that I have an assault weapon.

So I volunteer to ride with them.

As I am in the car, Officer A and B are in a bit of an argument.

Officer B owns four AR15s like mine and knows about the bullet button and how my rifle does not need to be registered, plus all the other laws pertaining to them.

Eventually we arrive at the station. I wait there for about an hour untill Officer A comes out and tells me I'm free to go.


For me, I need to carry the ar15 flowchart for now on.


Opinions, concerns?


Any advice for future reference you guys can give me and anyone else who's reading?

I am just going to go ahead and say BIG FRIGGIN MISTAKE

TALKING TO COPS DOES NOT MAKE YOUR LIFE EASIER!


AAAAAAAAGH!

pullnshoot25
12-25-2009, 12:37 PM
Also, might I ask WTF is going on with LASD and LAPD officers? Two threads in one day about the LA area...

Jicko
12-25-2009, 12:41 PM
BTW, turn on your voice recorder too (or camcorder).... MOST of your cellphone can acts as a voice recorder.. learn how to use it!

pullnshoot25
12-25-2009, 12:44 PM
BTW, turn on your voice recorder too (or camcorder).... MOST of your cellphone can acts as a voice recorder.. learn how to use it!

No ****. I pretty much never leave home without mine.

SteveH
12-25-2009, 12:46 PM
BTW, turn on your voice recorder too (or camcorder).... MOST of your cellphone can acts as a voice recorder.. learn how to use it!

During a lawful detention the police are very likely to take a cellphone away from you if they see you using it. Both to prevent you from telephoning fro assistance and to prevent you from calling in a fake 911 call to trick/force the officers to break away from what they are investigating you for.

There is a case going on in Orange county court right now. The passenger in a DUI suspects car telephoned in a stabbing in progress so the cops would race away to the reported life threatening incident thus allowing the DUI suspect to avoid arrest. Cops are very reluctant to let anyone in the car use a cell phone after incidents like that.

For that reason a voice recorder that is clearly not a cell phone may be a better idea than relying on your phone.

Tarn_Helm
12-25-2009, 12:53 PM
Also, might I ask WTF is going on with LASD and LAPD officers? Two threads in one day about the LA area...
+1
Sounds like certain members of certain departments are refusing to do any of the necessary homework on all of our carefully and expensively crafted CA gun laws, and instead they are just randomly and arbitrarily pulling some "come along with me, you petty peon, so I can bluff and bluster and flex my badge in your face" bullship.

Not very nice, since we, the law abiding, pay their salaries.

Time to re-up my contribution to CGF.
:(:inquis::beatdeadhorse5::rant:

bodger
12-25-2009, 12:54 PM
I carry a Flip Video recorder. About the size of a pack of smokes. Turn it on and toss it on the dash. It might not be focused on the action, but it will record the audio at the very least.

CavTrooper
12-25-2009, 12:56 PM
To what extent are we allowed to defend ourselves against unlawful arrest? Are we supposed to just take it, fight it in court, lose our firearms, time, property, jobs, families and more in the process in the hopes that we might win, while the offenders walk away scot free?

pullnshoot25
12-25-2009, 1:13 PM
To what extent are we allowed to defend ourselves against unlawful arrest? Are we supposed to just take it, fight it in court, lose our firearms, time, property, jobs, families and more in the process in the hopes that we might win, while the offenders walk away scot free?

We are legally allowed to use lethal force, believe it or not.

djbooya
12-25-2009, 1:16 PM
...
From day 1 back in 2005, I carry the actual penal code, CCR (back then, that's what it was called), AW ID guide, CA DOJ Stag's letter, etc.... with appropriate sections highlighted, with my range bag.

And then, I have now added the AW flowchart, the SacPD memo etc... (and I have copies to give out to people at the range, or to the cops, to take home if needed)

These will get them informed... :) and make the right decision

Has anyone created a "Carry with you" type of packet that includes all the "essentials" for EBR folks? I thought someone put this together, perhaps CGF? If not, would someone be willing to? It would be greate to see it as a prominent link in the header or something as 1 large PDF that we can print out. It would be great if it's maintained as well as additional memos, DOJ bulletins, etc...happen..

I think this would be very helpful, but don't think I'm the right person to do it since I don't even know of all the good stuff to put in it.

djbooya
12-25-2009, 1:18 PM
BTW, turn on your voice recorder too (or camcorder).... MOST of your cellphone can acts as a voice recorder.. learn how to use it!

I believe voice recording alone needs consent from both parties, however video recording (with audio) does not.

I read something about that, but couldn't point anyone to respective laws about it.

pullnshoot25
12-25-2009, 1:21 PM
Has anyone created a "Carry with you" type of packet that includes all the "essentials" for EBR folks? I thought someone put this together, perhaps CGF? If not, would someone be willing to? It would be greate to see it as a prominent link in the header or something as 1 large PDF that we can print out. It would be great if it's maintained as well as additional memos, DOJ bulletins, etc...happen..

I think this would be very helpful, but don't think I'm the right person to do it since I don't even know of all the good stuff to put in it.

Yeah, it is called the Flow Chart and the SacPD memo. However, the best medicine is still a "NO!" when asked to search.

NiteQwill
12-25-2009, 1:23 PM
I believe voice recording alone needs consent from both parties, however video recording (with audio) does not.

I read something about that, but couldn't point anyone to respective laws about it.

No, public servants/officials have no reasonable expectation of privacy. You can record all you want, voice or video/audio... hidden or open.

SteveH
12-25-2009, 1:27 PM
No, public servants/officials have no reasonable expectation of privacy. You can record all you want, voice or video/audio... hidden or open.

Not entirely true.

In the context of a traffic stop the police have no reasonable expectation of privacy. But say you were to walk into the police chiefs office for a sit down and secretly tape the conversation. In that case since its a conversation between only two people, in the chiefs private office there is an expectation of privacy. I know a cop who learned that lesson the hard way when he taped a conversation between himself and his Sgt in the Sgt's office.

NiteQwill
12-25-2009, 1:32 PM
Not entirely true.

In the context of a traffic stop the police have no reasonable expectation of privacy. But say you were to walk into the police chiefs office for a sit down and secretly tape the conversation. In that case since its a conversation between only two people, in the chiefs private office there is an expectation of privacy. I know a cop who learned that lesson the hard way when he taped a conversation between himself and his Sgt in the Sgt's office.

I should add then: within official contact, they have no expectation of privacy.

The cop is an employee, employees are bound by different rules.

The 2-party notification only applies to conversations that are assumed private.... telephone, enclosed private property, etc.

Plain view public or private property, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy, thus, notification of recording is not required.

djbooya
12-25-2009, 1:34 PM
Yeah, it is called the Flow Chart and the SacPD memo. However, the best medicine is still a "NO!" when asked to search.

While I agree with that, it doesn't help at a range like Burro Canyon where the cops can just walk up to where you're shooting. I'm not sure what expectation of privacy you give up when you sign in at Burro. I actually never read it. In this case, if the PD walks up to you, sees you firing your whatever, it might be helpful to carry the packet. It appears there's only 2 items needed. I thought there were more good things to include.

I'm also not sure what "privacy" you're expected to have while at any range really. If there's PD there for *whatever* reason and they come over to see what you're doing I'm not sure what rights I would still have. Isn't there something about items being in plain view which gives them the right to look at anything they see sitting out?

At a range like Burro Canyon I don't keep shuffling my long arms between my cases and the bench. I have a rifle rack I made that I stand them all on which I don't keep covered either. Perhaps the general rule should be that when shooting to keep everything "hidden" as well.

At what point do we just start looking suspicious? It's like something I read in another thread back in the day that a lot of people don't drive around with NRA stickers on their cars because of the stigma. It would be worse (in my opinion) if we felt we always had to hide our legal firearms even when we were shooting.

bodger
12-25-2009, 1:34 PM
I should add then: within official contact, they have no expectation of privacy.

The cop is an employee, employees are bound by different rules.


I once clandestinely audiotaped a car salesman who was lying to me about a warranty product.
Did I break any laws doing that?

M1A Rifleman
12-25-2009, 1:38 PM
A fishing expedition. A Kid with an AR looks like a potential arrest for something. :43:

NiteQwill
12-25-2009, 1:39 PM
I once clandestinely audiotaped a car salesman who was lying to me about a warranty product.
Did I break any laws doing that?

I wouldn't think so. All those news stations seem to rave about their "undercover" investigations.:p

NiteQwill
12-25-2009, 1:42 PM
While I agree with that, it doesn't help at a range like Burro Canyon where the cops can just walk up to where you're shooting. I'm not sure what expectation of privacy you give up when you sign in at Burro. I actually never read it. In this case, if the PD walks up to you, sees you firing your whatever, it might be helpful to carry the packet. It appears there's only 2 items needed. I thought there were more good things to include.

I'm also not sure what "privacy" you're expected to have while at any range really. If there's PD there for *whatever* reason and they come over to see what you're doing I'm not sure what rights I would still have. Isn't there something about items being in plain view which gives them the right to look at anything they see sitting out?

At a range like Burro Canyon I don't keep shuffling my long arms between my cases and the bench. I have a rifle rack I made that I stand them all on which I don't keep covered either. Perhaps the general rule should be that when shooting to keep everything "hidden" as well.

At what point do we just start looking suspicious? It's like something I read in another thread back in the day that a lot of people don't drive around with NRA stickers on their cars because of the stigma. It would be worse (in my opinion) if we felt we always had to hide our legal firearms even when we were shooting.

If you get hassled at Burro for an AR, you'd be the first in a LOOOONG time. Hell, they had a fundraising raffle for an AR last year or before that one. I would say more than 50% of shooters on the rifle ranges now have legally configured EBR.

I've shot there on the private range with uniformed Tustin and OCSO officers, not one of them mentioned my rifles.

SJgunguy24
12-25-2009, 1:58 PM
Exactly, I felt so angry because I was being treated as a criminal when in fact I am working on joining LAPD and I'm a law abiding citizen like everyone else here. I told them that too, which is probably why they didn't arrest me at first.

What would they arrest you for? What crime did you commit? You did nothing wrong execpt give up your 4th amendment rights.


It's illegal to enforce CVC violation near bars?
Since when? All they need to do is light you up and tell you you have a light out. Shine a flashlight in your eyes and wait for the delayed response, or look for glassy eyes and your done. It's called being a cop. Is it right.......depends on who you ask.

SteveH
12-25-2009, 2:10 PM
Since when? All they need to do is light you up and tell you you have a light out. Shine a flashlight in your eyes and wait for the delayed response, or look for glassy eyes and your done. It's called being a cop. Is it right.......depends on who you ask.

Note the question mark. I was reponding to another posters claim that it is somehow illegal to enforce the CVC near bars.

gordon freeman
12-25-2009, 2:21 PM
'...If you don't right this wrong and at least file a complaint, this will be a complete failure on your part...

Complain as high up as you can. Fight back and hit them where it hurts -their job security. Too many complaints and the attention of politicians will kill their careers. They'll back off of their high horse fearing another complaint from another law abiding citizen. Remember complaints go into his permanent file. A community rogue will never get promoted, he won't get nice lateral positions like a detective assignment, rather he'll always be a beat cop and nothing more.

CCWFacts
12-25-2009, 2:58 PM
I'm glad it came out ok. You only lost 2 hours of your time. Those are two hours you will never get back, and that loss was imposed on you by an uninformed petty tyrant who had no business even getting involved in such things.

But it could have gone much much worse. In the 20 min they were looking at your rifle, they could have changed its configuration in some way. It takes all of 3 minutes to remove a mag release on an AR-15. The vast majority of cops are honest and take their vow to uphold the Constitution seriously. But there are some who are not like that, and who got into the job because they like having power over people.

You can't tell who you are dealing with just by looking so you need to protect yourself. Cops are the same way; if they are in an officer-involved shooting, they don't say anything and cooperate only to the bare minimum level and they have an attorney present at all times.

Do not consent to a search. Even if everything is legal, you could still be in trouble. Once you consent to a search, everything they find is admissible evidence. If that evidence includes your AR-15 with the BB removed, then you are in deep (felony) trouble.

Do not get into the car and have a long chat with an officer. Everything you say is admissible. And even if everything you say is perfectly fine, what you say may not match up with what he writes down in his report. What will a prosecutor believe, your recollections or a police report? If you refuse to talk, and he makes good on his threat of arresting you, then you can say, "I will not talk with you until I have my attorney." Then you are safe.

I highly recommend everyone take a look at this series of videos, including this one made by... a cop:

08fZQWjDVKE

My post isn't mean to be anti-cop. It's just anti-being-stupid and anti-getting-oneself-into-trouble.

Fate
12-25-2009, 3:12 PM
Also, might I ask WTF is going on with LASD and LAPD officers? Two threads in one day about the LA area...

You sound like you think this kind of stuff is unusual in L.A. Sadly, it's not.

galekowitz
12-25-2009, 3:20 PM
You do not have any right to use lethal force to resist an arrest you feel is not justified. You cannot resist arrest legally. Read PC 148 before making a legal opinion.

Also PC 834a: If a person has knowledge, or by the exercise of reasonable
care, should have knowledge, that he is being arrested by a peace
officer, it is the duty of such person to refrain from using force or
any weapon to resist such arrest.

Pullinshoot25, my post sounded harsh after I read it. Didn't mean to, wasn't trying to "school" anyone.

NiteQwill
12-25-2009, 3:22 PM
You do not have any right to use lethal force to resist an arrest you feel is not justified. You cannot resist arrest legally. Read PC 148 before making a legal opinion.

Who the hell said anything about lethal force on a LEO?

He wasn't resisting arrest.

I suggest you read the OP's post again, then once more.

galekowitz
12-25-2009, 3:25 PM
I am on my blackberry and can't quote pullinshoots post that says you can use lethal force.

eta34
12-25-2009, 3:33 PM
Who the hell said anything about lethal force on a LEO?

He wasn't resisting arrest.

I suggest you read the OP's post again, then once more.

He was quoting another poster, not the OP.

NiteQwill
12-25-2009, 3:36 PM
I am on my blackberry and can't quote pullinshoots post that says you can use lethal force.

He was quoting another poster, not the OP.

Ahhhhhh. :p

Damn blackberries, after 7 years of using one... I'm glad I switched to an iPhone... make the switch! :D

johnthomas
12-25-2009, 3:36 PM
I believe Officer A is missing the other 6 letters in his full name.

galekowitz
12-25-2009, 3:48 PM
No worries.


Johnthomas that is the best thing I have read all week.

SJgunguy24
12-25-2009, 4:24 PM
I believe Officer A is missing the other 6 letters in his full name.

I think officer A knows what his name is.....it's on his hat....on his head....it's the location of his head that is the problem.

Seesm
12-25-2009, 4:30 PM
Kennycruz you do not own a AR15 btw... YOU have a AR pattern rifle but that is not info that LEO needs. (they may know the law or may NOT) Buut not your deal to tell them.

You have a long gun. I have a long gun if the police asked I own a Doublestar rifle. If he asks more I woudl say "Am I being detained?"

LEo #1 seemed to have no idea at all... Hope he does now.


Has anyone created a "Carry with you" type of packet that includes all the "essentials" for EBR folks? I thought someone put this together, perhaps CGF? If not, would someone be willing to? It would be greate to see it as a prominent link in the header or something as 1 large PDF that we can print out. It would be great if it's maintained as well as additional memos, DOJ bulletins, etc...happen..

I think this would be very helpful, but don't think I'm the right person to do it since I don't even know of all the good stuff to put in it.

How about we all print up applicable laws and pc's to allow them to have the quick facts so they do not arrest... I would pitch in for sure for the "CGF EBR book for LEO"

Seriously I am sooo sick of reading stories like this... We can (all cal gunners) stand as one and make a book to ensure we never make it to jail because a LEO does not know the laws he is trying to enforce.

BigDogatPlay
12-25-2009, 4:32 PM
.Cops are the same way; if they are in an officer-involved shooting, they don't say anything and cooperate only to the bare minimum level and they have an attorney present at all times.

If I shoot someone on duty I am immediately the focus and subject of a criminal investigation, with everything that entails. I don't recall checking my constitutional rights under 4A and 5A when I clocked in. So why is it, in your eye, that if I invoke my right to silence and counsel I am somehow wrong?

After all, it's what seems to be the standard advice for folks here on LE contacts all the way down to simple traffic stops... shut up and lawyer up.

I'm not saying you hate cops, but your posts sure read that way.

hoffmang
12-25-2009, 4:34 PM
I once clandestinely audiotaped a car salesman who was lying to me about a warranty product.
Did I break any laws doing that?

Yes, you were breaking a California wiretap/privacy law when you did that. The salesman had a reasonable expectation of privacy. A LEO on the side of the road does not - otherwise your statements there couldn't be used against you.

-Gene

vantec08
12-25-2009, 4:38 PM
.. . have had the experience myself and asked the officer if he was conducting a criminal investigation. When he said no, that ended it as far as I was concerned and he knew it. A friend went to a police range in San Diego area, staffed by police rangemasters, to shoot a 9mm with some Federal Nyclad ammo and some moron rangemaster called it "teflon, cop killer ammo" and detained my friend to cuff and arrest. Fortunately, the senior rangemaster was present and stopped it right frigging NOW. Had an off-duty cop tell me a 30 rd. AK mag of mine was illegal (wasnt in use, was just in rifle case and was obtained in early 90s). Said I needed PROOF of the original purchase (was at some gunshow, hell, dont even remember which one). When I asked him to recite chapter and verse, he couldnt. I checked with a criminal law attorney friend, he said that being taken into custody to educate an ignorant cop is illegal ON ITS FACE, as there is no evidentiary or custodial reason for it.

johnthomas
12-25-2009, 4:51 PM
If I shoot someone on duty I am immediately the focus and subject of a criminal investigation, with everything that entails. I don't recall checking my constitutional rights under 4A and 5A when I clocked in. So why is it, in your eye, that if I invoke my right to silence and counsel I am somehow wrong?

After all, it's what seems to be the standard advice for folks here on LE contacts all the way down to simple traffic stops... shut up and lawyer up.

I'm not saying you hate cops, but your posts sure read that way.

No cop hater here, no one here is saying your are somehow wrong if you invoke your rights, it seems the other way around, we invoke and the officer instantly thinks we have something to hide. We must be guilty of something or we would answer all the questions asked of us. If it were standard for everyone to invoke, don't answer without legal representation we would all be better off. I think many of us feel we and the police should all be on equal ground when it comes to our right to invoke. Without the badgering and innuendo's that come when we decide to invoke.

CCWFacts
12-25-2009, 5:13 PM
If I shoot someone on duty I am immediately the focus and subject of a criminal investigation, with everything that entails. I don't recall checking my constitutional rights under 4A and 5A when I clocked in. So why is it, in your eye, that if I invoke my right to silence and counsel I am somehow wrong?

It's absolutely not wrong! It's the right thing to do! You need to protect yourself legally, and blabbering about what happened can only hurt. LEOs need to invoke the 5A and keep their traps shut in situations like that. My only point is, non-LEOs should follow that same advice.

After all, it's what seems to be the standard advice for folks here on LE contacts all the way down to simple traffic stops... shut up and lawyer up.

I'm not saying you hate cops, but your posts sure read that way.

No, you're reading it wrong!

If a cop is involved in a shooting, my advice is, he should shut up and lawyer up.

If a non-cop is involved in a LE contact that's more serious than a simple traffic stop, he should shut up and lawyer up.

For all the same reasons.

The original poster here was involved in something that was a lot more than a simple traffic stop, and he made a big mistake of consenting to searches and blabbering away. It turned out that he "only" lost a few hours of his time, but a) that's not acceptable and b) it could have gone much much worse, especially if Officer A had had a hex key handy and decided to reconfigure the rifle.

SJgunguy24
12-25-2009, 5:22 PM
If I shoot someone on duty I am immediately the focus and subject of a criminal investigation, with everything that entails. I don't recall checking my constitutional rights under 4A and 5A when I clocked in. So why is it, in your eye, that if I invoke my right to silence and counsel I am somehow wrong?

After all, it's what seems to be the standard advice for folks here on LE contacts all the way down to simple traffic stops... shut up and lawyer up.

I'm not saying you hate cops, but your posts sure read that way.

If you shoot somebody you know exactly what to expect, you've been trained and the union has lawyers for you.
A kid driving home from the range doesn't know to keep his mouth shut. If he does he'll be harassed and possibly threatend by the police. Standard interrogation techniques, multible questions from multible officers, same question different way.

I've had that happen to me before, 11 cops questioning me at the same time. I talked to one and one only, told the rest to GTH. I spent 2 hours on the side of the road handcuffed, my truck tossed and all my tools laid out in the street.
I was following an unmarked too closely. God forbid what would've happened if I had a gun.

pullnshoot25
12-25-2009, 6:11 PM
You do not have any right to use lethal force to resist an arrest you feel is not justified. You cannot resist arrest legally. Read PC 148 before making a legal opinion.

Also PC 834a: If a person has knowledge, or by the exercise of reasonable
care, should have knowledge, that he is being arrested by a peace
officer, it is the duty of such person to refrain from using force or
any weapon to resist such arrest.

Pullinshoot25, my post sounded harsh after I read it. Didn't mean to, wasn't trying to "school" anyone.

Who is willing to throw money down on this?

Naw, I will give you guys the answers...

“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: “Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.”

List of other cases here (http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm)

Merry Christmas!

pullnshoot25
12-25-2009, 6:14 PM
Also, what's with everyone qualifying their posts to or about me today? Everyone has put down a "just kidding with you" sort of tag to their posts.

Kinda funny.

hkusp9c
12-25-2009, 6:46 PM
Airforce jacket? The reversable ones with the orange liner the skinheads like to wear? If so sounds like you guys were profiled.

LOL. skinheads recruiting asians now? I'm not being an ***. It was just funny.

4D5auto
12-25-2009, 6:56 PM
It's illegal to enforce CVC violation near bars?

No, they can not "lie in wait"

Meplat
12-25-2009, 6:57 PM
I have not met a lot of Asian skinheads?

Airforce jacket? The reversable ones with the orange liner the skinheads like to wear? If so sounds like you guys were profiled.

Lone_Gunman
12-25-2009, 7:02 PM
@ hk. Not all skinheads are racist. The original skins were working class youths rebelling against the ideas of the mods and later the hippies. The look and name was later taken by neo-nazis who really had no idea what the skinheads were about. There have been and may still be asian skins. Now you know.

pullnshoot25
12-25-2009, 7:06 PM
@ hk. Not all skinheads are racist. The original skins were working class youths rebelling against the ideas of the mods and later the hippies. The look and name was later taken by neo-nazis who really had no idea what the skinheads were about. There have been and may still be asian skins. Now you know.

Hitler: Taking all that is good and perpetuating stupid stereotypes since 1939...

...or earlier?

pullnshoot25
12-25-2009, 7:08 PM
While I agree with that, it doesn't help at a range like Burro Canyon where the cops can just walk up to where you're shooting. I'm not sure what expectation of privacy you give up when you sign in at Burro. I actually never read it. In this case, if the PD walks up to you, sees you firing your whatever, it might be helpful to carry the packet. It appears there's only 2 items needed. I thought there were more good things to include.

I'm also not sure what "privacy" you're expected to have while at any range really. If there's PD there for *whatever* reason and they come over to see what you're doing I'm not sure what rights I would still have. Isn't there something about items being in plain view which gives them the right to look at anything they see sitting out?

At a range like Burro Canyon I don't keep shuffling my long arms between my cases and the bench. I have a rifle rack I made that I stand them all on which I don't keep covered either. Perhaps the general rule should be that when shooting to keep everything "hidden" as well.

At what point do we just start looking suspicious? It's like something I read in another thread back in the day that a lot of people don't drive around with NRA stickers on their cars because of the stigma. It would be worse (in my opinion) if we felt we always had to hide our legal firearms even when we were shooting.

YOu can still refuse to consent to a warrantless search, no?

hollowpoint67
12-25-2009, 7:25 PM
im kinda confused can we get a situational play by play on what to actually SAY to LEOs if we get pulled over in a similar situation?

I feel that if we say "i know my rights and dont have to answer that" will just agitate them and make them start a search for probable cause and then when they find the AR style gun make things worse??

galekowitz
12-25-2009, 7:37 PM
Also, what's with everyone qualifying their posts to or about me today? Everyone has put down a "just kidding with you" sort of tag to their posts.

Kinda funny.

Well I wasn't kidding. I thought my post directed to you sounded harsh.

With all due respect, I understand where the cases you have cited come from. I also understand that they could be used as a defense at trial. But, they in no way give anyone the right to use deadly force, as you earlier posted, to resist what they believe to be an unlawful arrest.

In the situation the OP described would it be reasonable or necessary to take the officer's life? I donít think anyone would find it unreasonable to use deadly force to stop violent attack. But the taking of a life, in violation of CA law, for anything but the most extreme instances would be wildly inappropriate and unlawful.

I know there are calgunners educated in law who can clear this up.

Iíll put down a $25.00 donation bet with you. If the cases you have cited in your earlier post give someone the RIGHT to use deadly force or any force that matter to resist an unlawful arrest, not merely a defense at trial I will make a $25.00 donation to CGF.

If my thought on the matter is correct, that resisting arrest, even if it is believed unlawful, is unlawful, you will give a $25.00 donation.

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. A little friendly challenge that everyone learns from.

I accept a CGF legal expert's ruling on this disagreement to be binding.

CCWFacts
12-25-2009, 7:37 PM
I feel that if we say "i know my rights and dont have to answer that"

You got that half-right. Better to say, "I don't know my rights. I do not wish to answer your questions."

will just agitate them and make them start a search for probable cause and then when they find the AR style gun make things worse??

Maybe, but consenting to a search is a very risky thing to do in order to prevent some possible inconvenience.

pullnshoot25
12-25-2009, 7:41 PM
Well I wasn't kidding. I thought my post directed to you sounded harsh.

With all due respect, I understand where the cases you have cited come from. I also understand that they could be used as a defense at trial. But, they in no way give anyone the right to use deadly force, as you earlier posted, to resist what they believe to be an unlawful arrest.

In the situation the OP described would it be reasonable or necessary to take the officer's life? I donít think anyone would find it unreasonable to use deadly force to stop violent attack. But the taking of a life, in violation of CA law, for anything but the most extreme instances would be wildly inappropriate and unlawful.

I know there are calgunners educated in law who can clear this up.

Iíll put down a $25.00 donation bet with you. If the cases you have cited in your earlier post give someone the RIGHT to use deadly force or any force that matter to resist an unlawful arrest, not merely a defense at trial I will make a $25.00 donation to CGF.

If my thought on the matter is correct, that resisting arrest, even if it is believed unlawful, is unlawful, you will give a $25.00 donation.

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. A little friendly challenge that everyone learns from.

I accept a CGF legal expert's ruling on this disagreement to be binding.

REASONABLENESS was not part of the original question, and I am certain that most people with two functioning neurons can ascertain what is reasonable and what is not. What was asked is TO WHAT EXTENT can someone resist an unlawful arrest. The original question from page 5 or 6.

To what extent are we allowed to defend ourselves against unlawful arrest? Are we supposed to just take it, fight it in court, lose our firearms, time, property, jobs, families and more in the process in the hopes that we might win, while the offenders walk away scot free?

djbooya
12-25-2009, 7:45 PM
YOu can still refuse to consent to a warrantless search, no?

Is it a warrantless search if your weapon is sitting out in the open? If so, then yes, if it's the same as "being in public view" or whatever excuse they use to go through trash or looking inside your car and seeing something sitting on your seat.

My point was that having the little "EBR Book" is going to be more helpful then not for anyone even if their default stance is to invoke the 5th and not consent to searches. Since I'm nowhere close to being a lawyer, I don't even know what I could say if they tell me "Well we have the right to look at your firearms because you're at a public shooting range, you have not expectation of privacy, your firearms are not in locked containers, and your firearms are out in public view."

But I wouldn't know if what they're telling me as a legal or illegal search and I assume if I ask if they have a warrant they could easily lie to me... on the flip side should it go to trial then perhaps whatever was searched illegally would get thrown out.

I realize when it gets to the point of them asking questions the appropriate answer is to plead the 5th, but having the EBR Book handy, even while not speaking, would be helpful to hand them and perhaps help in not having to get arrested and pay fees and time to put everything in the right.

galekowitz
12-25-2009, 7:49 PM
The word "reasonable" came from the cases you posted. We bettin' or what?

pullnshoot25
12-25-2009, 7:50 PM
Is it a warrantless search if your weapon is sitting out in the open? If so, then yes, if it's the same as "being in public view" or whatever excuse they use to go through trash or looking inside your car and seeing something sitting on your seat.

My point was that having the little "EBR Book" is going to be more helpful then not for anyone even if their default stance is to invoke the 5th and not consent to searches. Since I'm nowhere close to being a lawyer, I don't even know what I could say if they tell me "Well we have the right to look at your firearms because you're at a public shooting range, you have not expectation of privacy, your firearms are not in locked containers, and your firearms are out in public view."

But I wouldn't know if what they're telling me as a legal or illegal search and I assume if I ask if they have a warrant they could easily lie to me... on the flip side should it go to trial then perhaps whatever was searched illegally would get thrown out.

I realize when it gets to the point of them asking questions the appropriate answer is to plead the 5th, but having the EBR Book handy, even while not speaking, would be helpful to hand them and perhaps help in not having to get arrested and pay fees and time to put everything in the right.

However, you are in a place where firearms are not unexpected and are exempted from the loaded rule, so no 12031 check and therefore no other way to inspect the firearm, AFAIK. I'm up for corrections though...

Anyone up for an analysis?

pullnshoot25
12-25-2009, 8:05 PM
The word "reasonable" came from the cases you posted. We bettin' or what?

The word "reasonable" came from ONE case, not cases.

In addition, I can assure that given the multiple instances of people being bludgeoned, sodomized, strangled, shot, raped, stabbed, murdered or any other form of physical harm in years past, one can, with some certainty, conclude that forcefully resisting or assisting in one's resistance could be justified. Sure, it would be a long battle but then again, so is one's death. Giving someone a badge, especially from the government where there is little viable oversight and lots of protection at your expense, does not make them your greatest protector in any sense.

I'm down to bet. 25 smackers to CGF. (27.5 after wildhawker's 10% match).

Jicko
12-25-2009, 8:23 PM
I believe voice recording alone needs consent from both parties, however video recording (with audio) does not.

I read something about that, but couldn't point anyone to respective laws about it.

Without consent, you may NOT be able to present it in court, BUT, a judge may be willing to listen to it to determine whether your rights had been violated.

Meplat
12-25-2009, 8:29 PM
We are legally allowed to use lethal force, believe it or not.

Good luck!

Jicko
12-25-2009, 8:29 PM
OP: just file a complaint with the department about your detention.... at least that will give that cop a hard time.... he will think twice about doing another illegal detention... (based on his ignorant)

pullnshoot25
12-25-2009, 8:32 PM
Here is the first instance of case law that came up in FindLaw.
(http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZRgaEwQBTArZGM5ajdzNWtfMTM4Z3BwYnpwaGI&hl=en)

While California law is structured to give law enforcement the proverbial "judge, jury and executioner" privilege, that does not mean the law is Constitutional. Strict scrutiny would doubtlessly remove or at least chance the wording of 834a.

Since the original bet was whether or not lethal force could be used to resist an unlawful arrest but no job parameters were outlined....

AndrewMendez
12-25-2009, 8:42 PM
I cant tell you how many times I have been to Burro Canyon, and I have never ever ever seen LEO's up their, besides training themselves. I have seen CHP cruising the canyon, on different occasions, but never seen LASD, during the daylight hours at least. If this story is legit, I think you should be talking to a lawyer about being detained. I would have let them arrest me, thinking that you where in the wrong, then use him as an example to LEO who refuse to learn the law. However, growing up in the area, I have known LASD To be Very Understanding and cooperative individuals, I have also seen a Memo regarding OLL's.

galekowitz
12-25-2009, 8:45 PM
Here is the first instance of case law that came up in FindLaw.
(http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZRgaEwQBTArZGM5ajdzNWtfMTM4Z3BwYnpwaGI&hl=en)

While California law is structured to give law enforcement the proverbial "judge, jury and executioner" privilege, that does not mean the law is Constitutional. Strict scrutiny would doubtlessly remove or at least chance the wording of 834a.

Since the original bet was whether or not lethal force could be used to resist an unlawful arrest but no job parameters were outlined....

Did you just move the goalposts? Do we need to start a new thread? I feel bad for the OP. I will PM you.

wkd4496
12-25-2009, 8:46 PM
Did you just move the goalposts? Do we need to start a new thread? I feel bad for the OP. I will PM you.

Haha no worries, this is all valuable information for me and other readers.

AndrewMendez
12-25-2009, 8:56 PM
Kenny where they by chance in a SUV???

wkd4496
12-25-2009, 8:57 PM
Kenny where they by chance in a SUV???

yes they were

pMcW
12-25-2009, 9:08 PM
The quickest way to change this attitude would be to pass a law for the state that doesn't allow anyone to be exempted from a law passed for citizen. NO special treatment for LEO when it comes to firearms, cell phones, body armor anything. A lot would change quickly. Why don't we push for that?

This won't really help anything. The vast majority of gun hating LE's aren't in the least concerned about this, they are not really gun hobbiests or 2A supporters. They are simply trained employess out doing what they were trained to do.

We could never get this, but I don't think it matters whether they are hobbiests or pro-2A. If they had to follow all the laws that we do (even at work), then the laws that we have to follow would be a core part of their training.

AndrewMendez
12-25-2009, 9:17 PM
yes they were

Upon further "thinking" I have seen these LEO, I was actually detained by them on a Friday night (However, not coming from the range), because they thought I was the car they where looking for. I wish I remembered their names, it was an older white, bigger gentleman in the Passenger seat who shined the flash light in my eyes almost the entire time, cant remember the driver, but they let me go after they confirmed with my GF, that I was not taking her up the canyons to rape and kill her.

cyphr02
12-25-2009, 9:19 PM
From day 1 back in 2005, I carry the actual penal code, CCR (back then, that's what it was called), AW ID guide, CA DOJ Stag's letter, etc.... with appropriate sections highlighted, with my range bag.

And then, I have now added the AW flowchart, the SacPD memo etc... (and I have copies to give out to people at the range, or to the cops, to take home if needed)

These will get them informed... :) and make the right decision

I always carry the California OLL Quick Reference Law Book with me. It includes the flow chart, major cases, bulletins, and JOD Firearms Law Guide in one very handy, and organized form that I can throw in my range bag whenever I head out.

wkd4496
12-25-2009, 9:21 PM
Upon further "thinking" I have seen these LEO, I was actually detained by them on a Friday night (However, not coming from the range), because they thought I was the car they where looking for. I wish I remembered their names, it was an older white, bigger gentleman in the Passenger seat who shined the flash light in my eyes almost the entire time, cant remember the driver, but they let me go after they confirmed with my GF, that I was not taking her up the canyons to rape and kill her.

Was his partner a Latino male?

AndrewMendez
12-25-2009, 9:32 PM
Was his partner a Latino male?

Thats exactly what I was thinking.....hmmmmmmm, Do you remember his name?? I can get his picture, this may not be the first time he has done this.

wkd4496
12-25-2009, 9:33 PM
Thats exactly what I was thinking.....hmmmmmmm, Do you remember his name?? I can get his picture, this may not be the first time he has done this.

Castillo.

AndrewMendez
12-25-2009, 9:41 PM
Castillo.

Let me do some research, and see if I can find some more info.

Cokebottle
12-25-2009, 9:57 PM
I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. A little friendly challenge that everyone learns from.

I accept a CGF legal expert's ruling on this disagreement to be binding.
Oh come on now... you know Gene's ruling on this is that you'll both be wrong and CGF gets $50 :p

galekowitz
12-25-2009, 11:23 PM
Oh come on now... you know Gene's ruling on this is that you'll both be wrong and CGF gets $50 :p

Thats what I figured!

pullnshoot25
12-26-2009, 12:50 AM
Oh come on now... you know Gene's ruling on this is that you'll both be wrong and CGF gets $50 :p

HAHA! That would be hilarious :)

Cokebottle
12-26-2009, 1:13 AM
HAHA! That would be hilarious :)
Looking at the other thread, it looks like that's exactly what he said :D

vantec08
12-26-2009, 5:04 AM
We keep slipping farther and farther into Napoleonic law (guilty till proven innocent) and away from English common law (innocent till proven guilty) concerning firearm laws. LEOs are trained to con you into a consent search even if you think you are not consenting. Even if the search produces nothing illegal or prosecuteable, it can tie up hours and even days of your time (witness kennycruz)- which seems to be the intent of an ignorant legislature. Its in keeping with modern government which wants to crawl up our *****es with a microscope.

bodger
12-26-2009, 7:35 AM
im kinda confused can we get a situational play by play on what to actually SAY to LEOs if we get pulled over in a similar situation?

I feel that if we say "i know my rights and dont have to answer that" will just agitate them and make them start a search for probable cause and then when they find the AR style gun make things worse??


My opinion on that is to say:
"All due respect officer, I don't want to make any statements".

And I'm wary of telling them I won't consent to a warrantless search. It almost implies I might resist if they do it anyway.
"I'm not giving my permission to be searched" seems like a less confrontational statement.

That's all they are getting from me other than my license and registration and insurance card.
They'll either need PC or the willingness to break the law themselves and violate my rights if they decide to go further.

I realize the OP was taken aback and surprised by the cops that stopped him and he acted without thinking and won't likely do it again.

But if he had done what is stated above, and only that, he would probably not have had to sit at the cop shop.

pullnshoot25
12-26-2009, 9:54 AM
Looking at the other thread, it looks like that's exactly what he said :D

Naw, there was just nothing in it. I will start the new thread up here in a bit.

Maestro Pistolero
12-26-2009, 10:02 AM
Request for search:
Sir, I understand that you are doing your job, and I respect your professionalism. However, strictly as a matter of personal policy, I would never consent to a a baseless, warrantless search of my person or my property.

Twenty questions:
Sir, I understand you have a job to do, and I totally respect that. But as a matter of choice, I will answer questions that I consider to be related to the reason for this traffic stop, and that's it. Questions about where I am going to, or coming from, are irrelevant. Now, why, again, did you pull me over, sir?

vantec08
12-26-2009, 10:17 AM
right Maestro - - -- a clear NO to a warrantless search, or it will be taken as tacit approval.

Meplat
12-26-2009, 2:06 PM
I thought that sounded like he was saying police in that circumstance were doing the smart thing not the wrong thing.;)

If I shoot someone on duty I am immediately the focus and subject of a criminal investigation, with everything that entails. I don't recall checking my constitutional rights under 4A and 5A when I clocked in. So why is it, in your eye, that if I invoke my right to silence and counsel I am somehow wrong?

After all, it's what seems to be the standard advice for folks here on LE contacts all the way down to simple traffic stops... shut up and lawyer up.

I'm not saying you hate cops, but your posts sure read that way.

Meplat
12-26-2009, 2:21 PM
Might be a good idea, those that shoot tend to be real good.:43:
LOL. skinheads recruiting asians now? I'm not being an ***. It was just funny.

Cokebottle
12-26-2009, 2:27 PM
LEOs are trained to con you into a consent search even if you think you are not consenting.
Exactly:

"You don't have anything in the vehicle that you wouldn't want me to see, do you?"

"No" = Consent to search, as you have just answered that you don't care if he sees what is in the vehicle.

GuyW
12-26-2009, 2:57 PM
You do not have any right to use lethal force to resist an arrest you feel is not justified. You cannot resist arrest legally. Read PC 148 before making a legal opinion.

Also PC 834a: If a person has knowledge, or by the exercise of reasonable
care, should have knowledge, that he is being arrested by a peace
officer, it is the duty of such person to refrain from using force or
any weapon to resist such arrest.


#$%^in' unConstitutional....not that it'll change until we have some sort of revolution...

.

Meplat
12-26-2009, 3:00 PM
And where might one obtain this little gem.

I always carry the California OLL Quick Reference Law Book with me. It includes the flow chart, major cases, bulletins, and JOD Firearms Law Guide in one very handy, and organized form that I can throw in my range bag whenever I head out.

GuyW
12-26-2009, 3:05 PM
If the cases you have cited in your earlier post give someone the RIGHT to use deadly force or any force that matter to resist an unlawful arrest

The Founding Fathers reiterated that right with their blood.

.

bodger
12-26-2009, 3:53 PM
Exactly:

"You don't have anything in the vehicle that you wouldn't want me to see, do you?"

"No" = Consent to search, as you have just answered that you don't care if he sees what is in the vehicle.


EXACTLY why it's best to keep quiet. The LEO does this every day. We only interact with an LEO once in a great while. They have the advantage in more ways than one.

Capt. Speirs
12-26-2009, 7:18 PM
There should be no LEOs that don't know the basics of what constitutes an AW. No excuse for that in my opinion.

I had 2 LAPD Patrol Officers in our shop and I had to ask them if they were familiar with the "Bullet Button" for making an AR15 with any of the evil accessories, legal. They had no idea this existed or what even made an AR15 illegal. They knew nothing about OLLs. Nice guys and very receptive to the education and said they would inform themselves and that they have not seen any internal memos on this subject or even discussions.

Colt-45
12-26-2009, 8:53 PM
This crap hast to stop. Is there anyhing that can be done?

Print out all three of the Calguns assault weapons flowcharts.
Put all three in an envelope.
Address envelope with ATTN: Officer A.
Mail the envelope to the substation you went to.

I have a small idea that we can all do. Print out the flow charts, regardless if you're in trouble or not and send them to your local police department and the county sheriff. Don't put your address on it just to be safe.

bodger
12-26-2009, 8:57 PM
I had 2 LAPD Patrol Officers in our shop and I had to ask them if they were familiar with the "Bullet Button" for making an AR15 with any of the evil accessories, legal. They had no idea this existed or what even made an AR15 illegal. They knew nothing about OLLs. Nice guys and very receptive to the education and said they would inform themselves and that they have not seen any internal memos on this subject or even discussions.


That's just inexcusable. So I guess that's why we hear crap like "All semi-auto rifles have to be registered", because the LEOs are operating on FUD instead of knowledge of the law provided by the department.

philobeddoe
12-26-2009, 9:02 PM
This crap hast to stop. Is there anyhing that can be done?


yes, ask why you were pulled over
take notes

do not consent to a search

you really think they're going to roust a judge to get a warrant to search your pickup for "suspicious driving" ... ?!

make 'em earn it.

SoCalDep
12-27-2009, 6:39 AM
Don't need a warrant...becareful what youy suggest. We don't want anyone needlessly getting in trouble.

bodger
12-27-2009, 6:55 AM
Don't need a warrant...becareful what youy suggest. We don't want anyone needlessly getting in trouble.


Now I am confused.
You pull me over for "suspicious driving", there are no firearms or anything else in view, no smell of alcohol or pot smoke, I tell you I am not giving consent for you to search my vehicle, and you can do it anyway without a warrant?

SoCalDep
12-27-2009, 8:53 AM
With rare exception, warrants are not needed to search a vehicle. Probable cause must be articulated. I'm not addressing the specifics...Just saying a warrant is not required.

snobord99
12-27-2009, 8:55 AM
With rare exception, warrants are not needed to search a vehicle. Probable cause must be articulated. I'm not addressing the specifics...Just saying a warrant is not required.

If the person is in the car, all you need is reasonable suspicion to search the passenger compartment. You don't even need PC.

bodger
12-27-2009, 8:58 AM
With rare exception, warrants are not needed to search a vehicle. Probable cause must be articulated. I'm not addressing the specifics...Just saying a warrant is not required.

Okay, got it. Thanks.

If the person is in the car, all you need is reasonable suspicion to search the passenger compartment. You don't even need PC.

What would constitute the reasonable suspicion? And if I have my firearms in a locked container in the bed of my pickup truck,covered with a tarp, can they search that as well with only reasonable suspicion?

snobord99
12-27-2009, 9:05 AM
What would constitute the reasonable suspicion? And if I have my firearms in a locked container in the bed of my pickup truck,covered with a tarp, can they search that as well with only reasonable suspicion?

Reasonable suspicion is the standard established by Terry. A firearm in a locked container in the bed of your pickup, by itself, is most likely not enough. It may be enough for an (e) check, but it's not enough to have reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot. Copy and pasted from a legal treatise:

The Supreme Court held in Terry v. Ohio that a police officer can forcibly stop and briefly detain an individual for investigatory purposes when the officer ''observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot.'' This standard requires that the officer be able to articulate ''something more than an 'inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or hunch.' '' Rather, he must have a ''reasonable suspicion, based on objective facts''--in shorthand terms, a ''reasonable suspicion''--that the individual is involved in criminal activity. To put it another way, based upon ''the totality of the circumstances--the whole picture,''--the officer must have a ''particularized and objective basis'' for suspecting that the particular person stopped ''is, or is about to be, engaged in criminal activity,'' or that he ''was involved in or is wanted in connection with a completed felony.'' The level of suspicion required for an investigatory stop is less demanding than for probable cause and is ''considerably less than proof of wrongdoing by a preponderance of the evidence.'' What is required is a ''moderate chance'' that the individual is engaged in wrongdoing.

bodger
12-27-2009, 9:16 AM
"Moderate chance". Sounds like a "hunch" to me.

This is why I lock my guns in a container and cover the container, and lock the container itself to the racks on my truck with log chain and case hardened steel padlocks.

I don't think a tarp in the back of a pickup truck is enough for an officer to be thinking he needs to do an (e) check. And I am not going to volunteer the information that I am transporting firearms.

My gun container looks like an ordinary wooden tool box.

Owning guns in this state is enough to make you paranoid. Neurotic.
I have no criminal record and I am the most responsible and law abiding gun owner that anyone could ask a person to be. But I feel like a criminal these days just because I own firearms for enjoyment and protection.

I hope things get better in CA. A lot of good people are going to leave or become prohibited persons or even jailed.

The law enforcement and judicial system here is corrupted and twisted at this point. Cops don't seem to know the laws, and DAs and judges are making up their own interpretation of the laws. Theseus' case proved that.

Rant off.

Roadrunner
12-27-2009, 10:29 AM
Don't need a warrant...becareful what youy suggest. We don't want anyone needlessly getting in trouble.

If you tell me to step out of my car, and I lock it behind me, what are you going to do? I defy you or any other cop to force their way into it with out "good cause".

GrizzlyGuy
12-27-2009, 10:38 AM
What would constitute the reasonable suspicion? And if I have my firearms in a locked container in the bed of my pickup truck,covered with a tarp, can they search that as well with only reasonable suspicion?

This article (http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/F09_VEHICLE_SEARCHES.pdf) is long, but pretty good in helping to understand when and how LEOs can search your vehicle without a warrant.

wkd4496
12-27-2009, 10:51 AM
Once again gentlemen, thank you for providing me with all this useful information.

djbooya
12-27-2009, 10:55 AM
Reasonable suspicion is the standard established by Terry. A firearm in a locked container in the bed of your pickup, by itself, is most likely not enough. It may be enough for an (e) check, but it's not enough to have reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot. Copy and pasted from a legal treatise: ...


In regards to "reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot", I'm guessing this means in my range scenario that if a mis-informed police officer sees you shooting an AR or AK style firearm he has every right to come search your belongings since he may have reasonable suspicion you are firing an assault weapon. In this scenario it sounds like you have no choice on the matter of a search and your best bet is to plead the 5th, right?

jaustin612
12-27-2009, 12:15 PM
I really am regretting not re-enlisting for orders to yuma AZ right about now...

This state blows.

wkd4496
12-27-2009, 12:17 PM
I really am regretting not re-enlisting for orders to yuma AZ right about now...

This state blows.

+1 agreed.

bodger
12-27-2009, 12:18 PM
This article (http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/F09_VEHICLE_SEARCHES.pdf) is long, but pretty good in helping to understand when and how LEOs can search your vehicle without a warrant.

Thanks Grizz. Interesting read.

I really am regretting not re-enlisting for orders to yuma AZ right about now...

This state blows.

Freedom is but a short truck ride away my friend. I'm eyeballing AZ or Idaho. Haven't decided yet. Next year's business and the results of incorporation might extend my stay, but I'm running out of patience for this chicken***t.

vantec08
12-27-2009, 1:10 PM
lol guyz - - - - -the real U.S. starts at the AZ/OR border.

corrupt
12-27-2009, 1:47 PM
I would make a formal complaint with the Sheriff's Dept about Officer A.

scrat
12-27-2009, 2:04 PM
Wow almost makes me want to go to Burro Canyon

bodger
12-27-2009, 2:12 PM
Wow almost makes me want to go to Burro Canyon



Maybe us SoCal shooters should organize a meet at Burro, and then convoy outta there with all our legal EBR's well and legally secured.

Just have to be sure not to "drive suspiciously". :D

Cokebottle
12-27-2009, 2:18 PM
Wow almost makes me want to go to Burro Canyon with a voice recorder
Fixed it for you ;)

I've seen them in the area... I always thought they were scoping out the bikers.

CDMichel
12-27-2009, 2:51 PM
Please email me privately with the names of the Deputies. I will contact the Sheriff's Department. If they pull you over coming out of the range, they will pull over others. This needs to be addressed at the Department wide level and I know who to bring it to.

run8
12-27-2009, 2:57 PM
Plain and simple, don't say anything, it's easy for us to say but you have to develop the 'us against them' attitude. Now I say that not in a hatred towards LEO's. When I was working on the RR, every little thing you do is scrutinized by someone, ie - your bosses, whether a trainmaster who oversees conductors or a road foreman of engines that oversee's engineers. When you do something wrong it's essentially like getting arrested less the handcuffs, stop everything your doing, officials come out pulls everyone aside, each person writes a statement and gets interviewed seperately and then your drug tested and driven back to your terminal and released pending charges. The less you give them, the less they can hang you with, I seen this one night when I was on a crew and the conductor screwed up, I was brakeman, the engineer said don't write a huge statement, he did one line, mine was maybe two, the conductors was three and a half pages..........he hung himself out to dry and us with him.

From that point on 11yrs ago I learned, keep yer mouth shut, I had known before not to devuldge too much information, but really saw an eye opener on how it can all be used against you. And I might add that on the RR, it's a hangman jury type scenario, very few times does anyone get off on their charges.

Real life kinda falls along the same lines.

hoffmang
12-27-2009, 3:36 PM
Please email me privately with the names of the Deputies. I will contact the Sheriff's Department. If they pull you over coming out of the range, they will pull over others. This needs to be addressed at the Department wide level and I know who to bring it to.

I want to bump and reiterate this. Please email Mr. Michel and give him the names of the deputies.

Personal relationships can do wonders and Mr. Michel has excellent ones in the greater LA area.

-Gene

fullrearview
12-27-2009, 3:45 PM
This crap hast to stop. Is there anyhing that can be done?

Us pro 2A LEO's are doing our best. I have given everyone in my department the flow chart amog a few other things.....Even while im on probation. It's getting there....slowly.

bodger
12-27-2009, 3:56 PM
Us pro 2A LEO's are doing our best. I have given everyone in my department the flow chart amog a few other things.....Even while im on probation. It's getting there....slowly.


Excellent. Thanks for doing that. The more officers we have in the field that know the law, the less problems there will be for LEOs and law abiding gunnies alike.

vantec08
12-27-2009, 4:13 PM
yes, bro run8 - -- it doesnt have a thing to do with hate, has to do with a direct misuse of authority and, unfortunately, the CA legislature has put us and LE in that situation. The cultural phenomenon of a 2nd amendment has been politicized which was NEVER the intent of the founders.

wildhawker
12-27-2009, 4:15 PM
Amen, Bodger.

Fullrearview, we're working on a series of LEO-centered info guides that they can keep with them on duty. Would you or other LEOs be willing to provide some feedback as to what would make for convenient format, useful content and effective distribution? PM me if you have any thoughts on this. Thanks in advance.

cbn620
12-27-2009, 5:52 PM
Only things I can say are, number one I wouldn't be talking about what's in my car. You don't have to answer anything. Yeah, I know that's beating a dead horse in a 5 page thread where everyone's said it, but I can't leave that out.

Secondly if he threatens me with arrest and I know I'm legal I'll take the arrest any day of the week. I can get a lawyer. Sometimes you have to stand on your rights and principles.

But I will say you smooth talked your way out of a very bad situation in general. They set you up for some bad stuff, even if you fell for it, and many people would react rudely to an ultimatum and turn a bad situation worse. I gotta give you points there man.

NiteQwill
12-27-2009, 5:57 PM
Amen, Bodger.

Fullrearview, we're working on a series of LEO-centered info guides that they can keep with them on duty. Would you or other LEOs be willing to provide some feedback as to what would make for convenient format, useful content and effective distribution? PM me if you have any thoughts on this. Thanks in advance.


The Flowcharts at the top of this site is a good place to start.

Giovani X
12-27-2009, 6:19 PM
I would ask in very polite manner if I could call my lawyer before anything.

pullnshoot25
12-27-2009, 6:53 PM
Amen, Bodger.

Fullrearview, we're working on a series of LEO-centered info guides that they can keep with them on duty. Would you or other LEOs be willing to provide some feedback as to what would make for convenient format, useful content and effective distribution? PM me if you have any thoughts on this. Thanks in advance.

I have the perfect guy to give feedback on the project... Remind me the next time we chat!

wkd4496
12-27-2009, 9:28 PM
Have you learned at least three things tonight?

1. Don't talk to police.
2. Always exercise your rights.
3. Keep flow charts, etc.

philobeddoe
12-27-2009, 9:35 PM
If the person is in the car, all you need is reasonable suspicion to search the passenger compartment. You don't even need PC.

reasonable suspicion will get you a search of the "wingspan"

you're not getting into any lock boxes or the trunk w/o an arrest, a warrant, or consent

i'm sure you fellas get away with a lot, and we're all better for fools and criminals that don't know their rights ... but real criminals know the law better than LE and Lawyers combined

wanna know the law? ask a criminal.



i called CA DOJ and BATF with some firearm questions this month ...
they had no knowledge or information to impart or share,
they knew nothing, or they play dumb better than anyone i've ever met

i don't see how CA LE can be expected to know all the rules,
particularly when they're over broad, ill-defined, ambiguous and arbitrary

oh, i'm talking about the laws, not the lawmen

snobord99
12-27-2009, 9:58 PM
reasonable suspicion will get you a search of the "wingspan"

Hence, "passenger compartment."

SoCalDep
12-27-2009, 10:12 PM
reasonable suspicion will get you a search of the "wingspan"

you're not getting into any lock boxes or the trunk w/o an arrest, a warrant, or consent

i'm sure you fellas get away with a lot, and we're all better for fools and criminals that don't know their rights ... but real criminals know the law better than LE and Lawyers combined

wanna know the law? ask a criminal.



i called CA DOJ and BATF with some firearm questions this month ...
they had no knowledge or information to impart or share,
they knew nothing, or they play dumb better than anyone i've ever met

i don't see how CA LE can be expected to know all the rules,
particularly when they're over broad, ill-defined, ambiguous and arbitrary

oh, i'm talking about the laws, not the lawmen


Uh... agreed....somewhat. Be careful about the concept of arrest/warrant/consent. Probable Cause can justify a search without the LEO actually having to arrest the person. Also, there are rules, and as much as I think I could do much good without having to worry about that "pesky Constitution", following it serves the greater good. If you talk to a cop that has never really, wanted to commit horrible acts of illegal violence towards someone, they haven't seen much. That doesn't mean that we act on those reactions, or that we should. Laws are in place for a reason and should be followed by everyone. These laws (many of the CA gun laws) are crap but we all have to follow them. Sometimes it's tough for cops and sometimes it's tough for non-cops. I wish it were simpler. (and better)

Mark in Eureka
12-27-2009, 11:29 PM
The first problem is you stated it was an ar-15. Thats the problem you gave him the answer that ment to him it was a AW. You should have said it was an OLL based on a off list receiver. Then when he asked what an OLL was, you could have explained the entire thing to him.

Of course he was a jerk because he would not accept input from his partner who knew what it was and that it was legal.

fullrearview
12-27-2009, 11:54 PM
Amen, Bodger.

Fullrearview, we're working on a series of LEO-centered info guides that they can keep with them on duty. Would you or other LEOs be willing to provide some feedback as to what would make for convenient format, useful content and effective distribution? PM me if you have any thoughts on this. Thanks in advance.

Thats sounds great! pm inbound!

Wild Squid
12-28-2009, 12:12 AM
If you don't mind, I'd like to point out several failures here.

1. Officer A has no clue what he's talking about and was itching for an arrest regardless of what his more learned partner told him.

2. He threatened you with a false arrest, if you didn't comply with his less than legitimate demand.

3. You didn't ask for his supervisor right then and there.

4. You actually volunteered to go with him instead of calling his bluff.

5. After he finds out he really is wrong, he sends you on your way as if he was doing you a freaking favor.

If you don't right this wrong and at least file a complaint, this will be a complete failure on your part. There's a time to be polite and there's a time to assert yourself when talking to police. This was a time to assert yourself and tell him to go pound sand.

F'in A

bodger
12-28-2009, 6:36 AM
The first problem is you stated it was an ar-15. Thats the problem you gave him the answer that ment to him it was a AW. You should have said it was an OLL based on a off list receiver. Then when he asked what an OLL was, you could have explained the entire thing to him.

Of course he was a jerk because he would not accept input from his partner who knew what it was and that it was legal.



The Sac PD memo would aid in such an explanation.

First problem was answering the question at all. Once it was acknowledged that there were firearms in the car, the LEO had the right to do an (e) check on said shooting irons to see if they were being transported properly.

If a cop doesn't know what an OLL is to begin with, odds are probably slim that he'll take his newly minted suspect's word for it being a legally configured firearm.

pullnshoot25
12-28-2009, 6:52 AM
Have you learned at least three things tonight?

1. Don't talk to police.
2. Always exercise your rights.
3. Keep flow charts, etc.

A.FREAKING.MEN

paulo57509
12-28-2009, 9:33 PM
If you insist on answering the question "what kind of gun do you have," "AR 15" is the wrong answer. Just call it by what the manufacturer calls it i.e. "BCM SS410" but try not to use the words "AR 15, AK47, M4," etc...

Good advice. A buddy of mine was involved in a traffic collision. He was following a vehicle that moved to the left of the lane (no turn indicator). He thought the driver was going to turn left so he moved right...the other driver then turned right in front of him (again, no indicator). CRASH.

The officer asked him what his intent was. He told him he was going to go around on the right. Wrong answer. He should have told him his intent was to get home.

bambam8d1
12-28-2009, 9:54 PM
Upon further "thinking" I have seen these LEO, I was actually detained by them on a Friday night (However, not coming from the range), because they thought I was the car they where looking for. I wish I remembered their names, it was an older white, bigger gentleman in the Passenger seat who shined the flash light in my eyes almost the entire time, cant remember the driver, but they let me go after they confirmed with my GF, that I was not taking her up the canyons to rape and kill her.

these guys were eyeballin me on my way home form the calguns shoot at burro a few weeks ago. I was coming across the bridge back onto the main road down the mountain and they were already on the road. They stopped in the middle of the road and just starred at me until I got the the intersection. I literally had to sit there waiting for them to start driving again so I could turn left onto the road. They drove off and I started down the hill. The next turnout they had turned around and their SUV was facing me... they sat there starring at me as I drove towards them... as I passed they turned around again and followed me down the mountain a bit before turning around again and heading back up... I thought for sure I was about to get F'd with.

Vtec44
12-28-2009, 10:41 PM
Please email me privately with the names of the Deputies. I will contact the Sheriff's Department. If they pull you over coming out of the range, they will pull over others. This needs to be addressed at the Department wide level and I know who to bring it to.

I just want to bump this.

Please PM CDMichel if you haven't done so. I frequent the same range with my CA legal firearms and would like to see something done about this.

bodger
12-28-2009, 10:50 PM
Yeah. This is starting to sound like there are some deputies on fishing expeditions trying to snag gunnies leaving the range.

I wonder if they've rousted any non CalGuns guys prior to this incident.

wkd4496
12-29-2009, 9:27 AM
I just want to bump this.

Please PM CDMichel if you haven't done so. I frequent the same range with my CA legal firearms and would like to see something done about this.



I sent the PM a few days go.

fishyducky
12-29-2009, 9:39 AM
these guys were eyeballin me on my way home form the calguns shoot at burro a few weeks ago. I was coming across the bridge back onto the main road down the mountain and they were already on the road. They stopped in the middle of the road and just starred at me until I got the the intersection. I literally had to sit there waiting for them to start driving again so I could turn left onto the road. They drove off and I started down the hill. The next turnout they had turned around and their SUV was facing me... they sat there starring at me as I drove towards them... as I passed they turned around again and followed me down the mountain a bit before turning around again and heading back up... I thought for sure I was about to get F'd with.



Waiting for you to make a mistake so they could promptly pull you over and then start harassing you? Since you didn't, they went back to the top to wait for the next one to F up.

bodger
12-29-2009, 9:47 AM
Waiting for you to make a mistake so they could promptly pull you over and then start harassing you? Since you didn't, they went back to the top to wait for the next one to F up.



Yeah, or it was too close to donut break to mess with another stop.

The OP was pulled over for "suspicious driving". Apparently he pulled over so the LEOs could pass, and that made them suspicious.

I hope if there is a chicken***t gunnie trap up there it gets shut down.

Steveo8
12-29-2009, 10:35 AM
Fixed it for you ;)

I've seen them in the area... I always thought they were scoping out the bikers.

Hey Leave us out of this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

Vanguard
12-29-2009, 10:50 AM
Why does it seem that quite a few police are working against citizens and not for them? Any LEOs on here care to answer?

Baconator
12-29-2009, 11:09 AM
Isn't part of the problem that we live in a state that is full of people who don't know about guns so they are scared of them? Their fear of guns creates things like the doj roster, and laws that in fact do nothing to stop any crime. When you have rules that affect only a certain brand of a product, you aren't doing anything to solve any problems.

It's like making it illegal to drive a Chevy Silverado, but you can drive a GMC Sierra. It's the same truck! Education is the best, but it seems like too many people aren't open to learning about guns or even understanding their/our rights to have them. I hate this state.

Tarn_Helm
12-29-2009, 11:51 AM
This article (http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/F09_VEHICLE_SEARCHES.pdf) is long, but pretty good in helping to understand when and how LEOs can search your vehicle without a warrant.

In addition to its entertainment value, frequenting and supporting the Calguns forum also yields access to articles like the one you have posted.

Thank you.

Cokebottle
01-03-2010, 9:20 PM
Hey Leave us out of this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)
Well.... that's what has been on MY mind every time I've seen them after warming up my tires.
Glendora Ridge/GMR/East Fork is my "warm up the oil before changing it" run ;)

capntroy
01-04-2010, 1:04 AM
I just saw this thread :eek:

We left Burro not long after you guys and saw you getting pulled over (one of the guys in your group went to high school with my son)..

Thanks for running interference for us.. :D

five.five-six
01-04-2010, 1:11 AM
I am glad all worked out with no real leagal expence to you,

however, I am very confused. shouldn't a thread like this start with a 5,000 word essay including everything you felt and everything we all should learn from you, insuring that we are all put to sleep?

I leave disappointed ;)


This took place on Wednesday December 23rd around 4PM at the crossing of HWY39 and East Fork Road. (Near Burro Canyon.)


~way too short of a post~


Any advice for future reference you guys can give me and anyone else who's reading?

zeekster
01-04-2010, 5:44 AM
did they explain in what way you were driving suspiciously?

it's sad that officer A didn't trust officer B to beleive him when he said you don't have an assault weapon.....being an LEO myself I would have biotch slapped my partner if he thought I didn't know what I was talking about when it comes to AW's and BB OLL's considering he is begging to buy one of them from me :mad:

wkd4496
01-04-2010, 5:43 PM
I just saw this thread :eek:

We left Burro not long after you guys and saw you getting pulled over (one of the guys in your group went to high school with my son)..

Thanks for running interference for us.. :D

I know him too. Tell "D" i said hi.

wkd4496
01-04-2010, 5:47 PM
did they explain in what way you were driving suspiciously?

it's sad that officer A didn't trust officer B to beleive him when he said you don't have an assault weapon.....being an LEO myself I would have biotch slapped my partner if he thought I didn't know what I was talking about when it comes to AW's and BB OLL's considering he is begging to buy one of them from me :mad:


Well they probably would have pulled us over eventually for anything. Most likely 'speeding' or 'taking a turn too quick'.

anyway, while we were driving my friend pulled over to let them pass, that's when they lit us up. VERY weird how while i was riding with the sheriffs, another car in front of them did the very same thing....

bodger
01-04-2010, 6:20 PM
Well they probably would have pulled us over eventually for anything. Most likely 'speeding' or 'taking a turn too quick'.

anyway, while we were driving my friend pulled over to let them pass, that's when they lit us up. VERY weird how while i was riding with the sheriffs, another car in front of them did the very same thing....


Probably didn't matter what you did, they liked you for the one to be pulled over, so any reason will do. Even a made up reason.

KylaGWolf
01-04-2010, 8:52 PM
This took place on Wednesday December 23rd around 4PM at the crossing of HWY39 and East Fork Road. (Near Burro Canyon.)

My 4 friends and I were just leaving Burro Canyon Shooting Park. I had taken them up there to shoot for their first time. We had a blast with my legal AR-15.

We were driving when we got pulled over by LASD.

Two officers approached us and told us we were driving suspiciously. (My friend wanted to be courteous and let them pass so he pulled over.)

I just wanted us to get home and out of the hills before it got dark so I cooperated with them and and answered all their questions.

There's Officer A and officer B

Officer A asked what kind of gun was I shooting, I told him a long rifle. He asked what kind and I said AR15 and he gave me a surprised look. He asked where it was and I told him in the bed of the truck in a rifle bag. He went to take a look at it for twenty or so minutes.

He came back to me and ask why isn't it registered.
I told him it doesn't need to be registered, its a long rifle and not a assault weapon.
He said it has to be registered because it's a semi-auto rifle.
I them told him again that it doesn't need to be registered because it's a legal long rifle.

Officer B comes up to me and tells me that We'll be on our way soon.

Officer A comes back and tells me that he is not sure the laws with my AR so he asks me to volunteer and ride with them back to the station while they "check the books". I asked if I don't have to volunteer can we go? He replied if I don't volunteer he is going to arrest me on probably cause that I have an assault weapon.

So I volunteer to ride with them.

As I am in the car, Officer A and B are in a bit of an argument.

Officer B owns four AR15s like mine and knows about the bullet button and how my rifle does not need to be registered, plus all the other laws pertaining to them.

Eventually we arrive at the station. I wait there for about an hour untill Officer A comes out and tells me I'm free to go.


For me, I need to carry the ar15 flowchart for now on.


Opinions, concerns?


Any advice for future reference you guys can give me and anyone else who's reading?

Carry the flow chart. Second I hope you got name and badge numbers.

KylaGWolf
01-04-2010, 8:56 PM
Damn!

I have often wondered if cops stake out gun ranges and try to profile people leaving hoping for an easy felon in possession bust. Do you or your friends look like ex-cons/bangers or something?

I've never heard of a cop wanting you to come back to the station so he can review the law. Hasnt he ever heard of quick code publishing?

No offense but what do you think an ex-con looks like? I can tell you its not nearly what they portray at the movies. Matter of fact a lot of the ex-cons I have seen are clean cut looking. I have also seen bikers that look like the most mean nasty looking till they open their mouth and find out they are teddy bears with hearts of gold that wouldn't think twice of helping out someone in need and doesn't do drugs, drink or smoke. So goes to show never judge a book by its cover.

KylaGWolf
01-04-2010, 9:10 PM
One thing I forgot to mention, Officer A said and I quote:

"All semi-autos need to be registered."


Gah. That officer needs to go back to school to learn how to read the penal code then.

Cokebottle
01-04-2010, 9:19 PM
I have also seen bikers that look like the most mean nasty looking till they open their mouth and find out they are teddy bears with hearts of gold that wouldn't think twice of helping out someone in need and doesn't do drugs, drink or smoke. So goes to show never judge a book by its cover.
Big +1 there.
I am acquainted with members of several "outlaw" biker clubs, and these clubs often have extremely strict bylaws regarding drugs. They don't care if you spark up a little weed every now and then, but use of anything harder is punished by fines or beatings, and having any "gear" at club functions is an expulsion offense... and expulsion doesn't mean "turn in your vest and hit the road"... it's as hard to get out as it is to get in.
Reason? Cops bust someone for possession, and the DA threatens them with the max plus a 10 year RICO enhancement.... BUT... they'll make sure he gets probation and time served if he provides information on his brothers.

capntroy
01-04-2010, 9:32 PM
I know him too. Tell "D" i said hi.

D says hi and said you guys saw a video in Bertoni's class about this same thing....:D

N6ATF
01-04-2010, 11:31 PM
Gah. That officer needs to go back to school to learn how to read the penal code then.

Or... the beatings (by fellow officers) will continue until honesty improves!

Hunt
01-04-2010, 11:38 PM
This crap hast to stop. Is there anyhing that can be done?

+10 we must end the tryanny, these guys should be out catching criminals

dadoody
01-27-2010, 3:35 AM
Any advice for future reference you guys can give me and anyone else who's reading?

Have you filed a complaint yet?

He wasted YOUR time because HE didn't know the law. As a peace officer, he needs to be educated on the laws he's trying to enforce.

Silencer
01-27-2010, 4:50 AM
First off, nobody should expect all LEO to know exactly what the laws are. They should know, but don't expect it.

Second, just because they don't know, it's no reason to act like a doucebag. Don't be angry and don't be obnoxious or condescending.

Third, remember that you don't have to answer every question or follow every demand a LEO gives you. Try to remember you have rights the LEO can't violate and know these rights wont stop every LEO from trying to violate them.

Fourth, be helpful as possible. Carry legal proof of gun laws when you travel with certain firearms. Tell them about the gun laws, and where they can look it up.

And finally, if the crap still hits the fan, and a LEO threatens you with arrest when you know it's unjust, saying nothing further except politely asking if you can leave. Usually warning them they're violating your rights and you plan to sue doesn't work. If you feel inclined to say something further, tell them politely you feel they should contact a superior because of a possible mistake they're making. But, don't say anything else! If they arrest you, they arrest you. That's when you contact an attorney. And make damn well sure after they arrest you, not to say a f'n thing! Just give them your name, DOB and SS number and nothing else!

And note; pulling over for a cop before he/she signals you to pull over is very suspicious to a cop. When cops come up close behind you, they're running your license plate for a background check to make sure your car isn't stolen, you're not wanted, etc.

Cokebottle
01-27-2010, 10:10 AM
And note; pulling over for a cop before he/she signals you to pull over is very suspicious to a cop. When cops come up close behind you, they're running your license plate for a background check to make sure your car isn't stolen, you're not wanted, etc.
If I'm on a narrow mountain road, either in my car or on my bike, and I've got someone riding my *****, I'm going to pull over at the first opportunity and allow them to pass.

ESPECIALLY a cop. If he's riding my tail, I'm going to assume that he's in a hurry to get somewhere but not quite in enough of a hurry to run code-2 (see it all the time on the streets and freeway).

pnkssbtz
01-27-2010, 10:18 AM
First off, nobody should expect all LEO to know exactly what the laws are. They should know, but don't expect it.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse. It works both ways.

If you are an agent of the state, whose sole job is to arrest those who violate the law, you better be damn knowledgeable on the law's you arrest people under or you are no different than a person who violates a law they are ignorant of.

dantodd
01-27-2010, 10:20 AM
Ignorance of the law is no excuse. It works both ways.

Actually qualified immunity says that "ignorance of the law is no excuse" DOESN'T work both ways.