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WeThePeople
12-23-2009, 12:02 PM
Assuming that 2A Incorporation happens in June, what is the plan before and after?

What cases are percolating in CA now?

What cases need to be started now in anticipation of success in June?

What cases need to wait until the day after June "Nth"?


As a footnote, can CGF donations be allocated to specific cases?

ojisan
12-23-2009, 12:09 PM
Assuming that 2A Incorporation happens in June, what is the plan before and after?
Before: breathless anticipation After: wild celebration
What cases are percolating in CA now?
A bunch, covering almost every aspect of gun rights except full auto. Full auto will be later. Sensitive areas, the "safe" handgun list, AW ban, LOC / Concealed Carry and more.
What cases need to be started now in anticipation of success in June?
They have all been started per above.
What cases need to wait until the day after June "Nth"?
Almost all of them.


As a footnote, can CGF donations be allocated to specific cases?
Unknown

In bold

pullnshoot25
12-23-2009, 12:33 PM
Preparing? Dude, I am SOOOOO prepared for incorporation that it ain't funny. Bring it on!

2009_gunner
12-23-2009, 1:08 PM
Really, there will be little direct change to the lives of Californians when McDonald is won. The case will enable Chicagoans to buy handguns...

but the McDonald win will enable Sykes v McGinness to move forward. *That* is where things get really fun in our state
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=180923

ETA: The sister case to Sykes will be heard in less than a month. It's another Gura beauty, and since it's in DC, it doesn't have to wait for incorporation. Next year will be amazing!
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Palmer_v._District_of_Columbia

bwiese
12-23-2009, 1:16 PM
Incorporation is just the end of the beginning.

hoffmang
12-23-2009, 1:29 PM
The cases that will move forward right after McDonald:

Peņa - Can the state ban half of handguns?
Sykes - Can the sheriff not issue a license to carry to any law abiding citizen?
Nordyke - Can counties ban gun shows from public property - especially under the sensitive places doctrine?
Jackson - Can SF require "safe storage" and ban the sale of hollow point ammunition?

Lots more details on the cases can be seen on the CGF wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page).

And a couple of surprises :)

-Gene

pullnshoot25
12-23-2009, 1:31 PM
The cases that will move forward right after McDonald:

Peņa - Can the state ban half of handguns?
Sykes - Can the sheriff not issue a license to carry to any law abiding citizen?
Nordyke - Can counties ban gun shows from public property - especially under the sensitive places doctrine?
Jackson - Can SF require "safe storage" and ban the sale of hollow point ammunition?

Lots more details on the cases can be seen on the CGF wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page).

And a couple of surprises :)

-Gene

I LOVE SURPRISES!

CAL.BAR
12-23-2009, 1:42 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. . . Incorporation only says the 2A applies to the States as well as the Feds. SO what? NO Fed law allows for CCW, AW's SBR etc. etc. No Fed law has ever protected us from 10 round mags or other "reasonable restrictions" on firearms. If fact, with the 1932 NFA, the Feds did move to ban and entire class of firearms (fully auto)
Incorporation will only serve to give us legal leverage against a total ban of handguns (per Heller) and perhaps ammo. You won't be walking down the street carrying your AW legally concealed anytime soon.!

When State law conflicts with Fed. law, State law wins (in that state) unless the Fed has moved to totally control that field. (i.e interstate commerce etc.)

Stop holding your breath.

tombinghamthegreat
12-23-2009, 1:44 PM
I hope the school GFZ is on the chopping blocks after incorporation.

WeThePeople
12-23-2009, 1:57 PM
The cases that will move forward right after McDonald:

Peņa - Can the state ban half of handguns?
Sykes - Can the sheriff not issue a license to carry to any law abiding citizen?
Nordyke - Can counties ban gun shows from public property - especially under the sensitive places doctrine?
Jackson - Can SF require "safe storage" and ban the sale of hollow point ammunition?

Lots more details on the cases can be seen on the CGF wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page).

And a couple of surprises :)

-Gene

Thanks for partially answering my questions. The list of existing cases helps.

Do your surprises include cases that will be filed before June? Since the legal system moves slowly, don't more cases need to be filed now so that we gain 6 months?

The 10 year anniversary of SB23 & One Handgun per Month is just one week away. I've heard no mention of any lawsuit that addresses these issues.

Casual_Shooter
12-23-2009, 2:19 PM
Stop holding your breath.

This is my feeling too. My pessimistic side says even if certain cases go the way "we" want, nothing is really going to change.

The lawyers will explain that this is the way things work - that it takes time to win the battle- and the rest of us will wait year after year in hopes of being able to what... easily get a CCW? Carry a gun without being worried about a loophole in a law? Not have to worry about getting put in front of a judge with a attitude who decides he wants to ignore law and convict us of some unforeseen issue? Have detachable magazines?

Don't see it happening... but I do hope I'm wrong.

CHS
12-23-2009, 2:31 PM
No Fed law has ever protected us from 10 round mags or other "reasonable restrictions" on firearms. If fact, with the 1932 NFA, the Feds did move to ban and entire class of firearms (fully auto)
Incorporation will only serve to give us legal leverage against a total ban of handguns (per Heller) and perhaps ammo. You won't be walking down the street carrying your AW legally concealed anytime soon.!

When State law conflicts with Fed. law, State law wins (in that state) unless the Fed has moved to totally control that field. (i.e interstate commerce etc.)

Stop holding your breath.

1.) We didn't have a 2A when the Feds banned hi-cap mags and "assault weapons".
2.) Full auto was banned as of May 1986, not 1932 (and actually '34 was the NFA).

Besides the NFA, overall there are fairly few true FEDERAL restrictions on firearms.

Legasat
12-23-2009, 2:35 PM
I can't wait for some of these cases to be decided.

Keeping fingers crossed!

gregorylucas
12-23-2009, 2:47 PM
Well I'm going to have a party and maybe buy a new gun! :D

-Greg

Dragunov
12-23-2009, 2:59 PM
I just wish the ridiculous "assault weapon" ban would get dumped here so I can have my Colt AR shipped back from my dads house. :(

shooting4life
12-23-2009, 3:34 PM
I know their will be lots of people with hangovers the next day.

wildhawker
12-23-2009, 3:42 PM
Thanks for partially answering my questions. The list of existing cases helps.

Do your surprises include cases that will be filed before June? Since the legal system moves slowly, don't more cases need to be filed now so that we gain 6 months?

The 10 year anniversary of SB23 & One Handgun per Month is just one week away. I've heard no mention of any lawsuit that addresses these issues.

Do note that both Gene and Bill have discussed - on numerous occasions - planned litigation challenging SB23 and 1-in-30.

wildhawker
12-23-2009, 3:44 PM
This is my feeling too. My pessimistic side says even if certain cases go the way "we" want, nothing is really going to change.

The lawyers will explain that this is the way things work - that it takes time to win the battle- and the rest of us will wait year after year in hopes of being able to what... easily get a CCW? Carry a gun without being worried about a loophole in a law? Not have to worry about getting put in front of a judge with a attitude who decides he wants to ignore law and convict us of some unforeseen issue? Have detachable magazines?

Don't see it happening... but I do hope I'm wrong.

I'm glad to, with all due respect, say that you most certainly are wrong. We'll all enjoy the benefits of well-considered litigation, such as that by CGF, NRA, SAF and other coalition forces.

Glock22Fan
12-23-2009, 4:18 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. . . Incorporation only says the 2A applies to the States as well as the Feds. SO what? NO Fed law allows for CCW, AW's SBR etc. etc. No Fed law has ever protected us from 10 round mags or other "reasonable restrictions" on firearms. If fact, with the 1932 NFA, the Feds did move to ban and entire class of firearms (fully auto)
Incorporation will only serve to give us legal leverage against a total ban of handguns (per Heller) and perhaps ammo. You won't be walking down the street carrying your AW legally concealed anytime soon.!

When State law conflicts with Fed. law, State law wins (in that state) unless the Fed has moved to totally control that field. (i.e interstate commerce etc.)

Stop holding your breath.

Well, let me see. On the one hand we have the assembled brains of the CGF, CRPA, NRA, Gura, Kilmer etc. etc.

On the other hand we have djandj and Casual_Shooter.

Now, which group should I assume knows what they are talking about?

Even if they only get one tenth of what they hope for, which group will get most done?

Game over.

WeThePeople
12-23-2009, 4:39 PM
Do note that both Gene and Bill have discussed - on numerous occasions - planned litigation challenging SB23 and 1-in-30.

I must have missed those discussions during my search of SB23/SB 23/SB-23. Do you have a link? I remember Gene saying a few months ago that SB23 & 1HG/mo was not planned. I'd be happy to be wrong.

Thanks.

CitaDeL
12-23-2009, 4:40 PM
Peņa - Can the state ban half of handguns?
Sykes - Can the sheriff not issue a license to carry to any law abiding citizen?
Nordyke - Can counties ban gun shows from public property - especially under the sensitive places doctrine?
Jackson - Can SF require "safe storage" and ban the sale of hollow point ammunition?

Lots more details on the cases can be seen on the CGF wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page).

And a couple of surprises :)

-Gene

I LOVE SURPRISES!

Seconded.

Surprises go with the party, balloons, streamers and RTKABA. I'd be free to 'exersize' once again...

Ford8N
12-23-2009, 4:49 PM
All I want is a mere pistol grip on my semi automatic center fire rifle with a detachable magazine like they can have across the invisible line in the desert. Otherwise, I will continue to plan to leave this sh**hole state.

California sux!

wildhawker
12-23-2009, 4:54 PM
I'm sure Oak's convenient Google tool (http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=018149931542195181678:pzxbzjzh1zk) will help you turn up the results; I don't recall that they were explicitly mentioned as "planned" but a logical inference could be made based on posted comments throughout the 2A forum over the past year or so.

I must have missed those discussions during my search of SB23/SB 23/SB-23. Do you have a link? I remember Gene saying a few months ago that SB23 & 1HG/mo was not planned. I'd be happy to be wrong.

Thanks.

wildhawker
12-23-2009, 4:58 PM
While I share in your desire for such an outcome, I'm always taken aback to hear of those among us very willing to pack all of their worldly belongings, move hundreds or thousands of miles away and modify their entire life (lives for those families) for a detachable magazine AR.

All I want is a mere pistol grip on my semi automatic center fire rifle with a detachable magazine like they can have across the invisible line in the desert. Otherwise, I will continue to plan to leave this sh**hole state.

California sux!

GuyW
12-23-2009, 5:18 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. . . Incorporation only says the 2A applies to the States as well as the Feds. SO what? NO Fed law allows for CCW, AW's SBR etc. etc. No Fed law has ever protected us from 10 round mags or other "reasonable restrictions" on firearms. If fact, with the 1932 NFA, the Feds did move to ban and entire class of firearms (fully auto)
Incorporation will only serve to give us legal leverage against a total ban of handguns (per Heller) and perhaps ammo. You won't be walking down the street carrying your AW legally concealed anytime soon.!

When State law conflicts with Fed. law, State law wins (in that state) unless the Fed has moved to totally control that field. (i.e interstate commerce etc.)

Stop holding your breath.

This is one of the most incorrect "takes" on incorporation ever posted on CalGuns....

.

Ford8N
12-23-2009, 5:19 PM
While I share in your desire for such an outcome, I'm always taken aback to hear of those among us very willing to pack all of their worldly belongings, move hundreds or thousands of miles away and modify their entire life (lives for those families) for a detachable magazine AR.

Life is to short to wait to enjoy a freedom that millions of U.S. Citizens enjoy. But you are correct, there are many other things that make it easy to leave this rat hole of a state.:D

bodger
12-23-2009, 5:24 PM
I think for many, myself included, it's the principle of the thing and the arbitrary control it represents that creates the animosity.
People have done a lot more than move their worldly belongings many miles away to escape a corrupted government's grip.

I was shooting my Bushmaster last weekend and although it is just a minor inconvenience, I hated dropping that mag with a bullet tip, and only being able to load ten rounds at a time.
It's a classic example of gun laws just for the sake of having them. And the fact that introducing such legislation in California is a sure way for a politician to further his or her career.

I know, we're lucky we still have EBRs and can drop the mag at all. But that argument goes dead when compared to free states gun laws.

We'll see what incorporation brings, if it does come to pass.

BigBamBoo
12-23-2009, 5:31 PM
............

Sgt Raven
12-23-2009, 5:45 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. . . Incorporation only says the 2A applies to the States as well as the Feds. SO what? NO Fed law allows for CCW, AW's SBR etc. etc. No Fed law has ever protected us from 10 round mags or other "reasonable restrictions" on firearms. If fact, with the 1932 NFA, the Feds did move to ban and entire class of firearms (fully auto)
Incorporation will only serve to give us legal leverage against a total ban of handguns (per Heller) and perhaps ammo. You won't be walking down the street carrying your AW legally concealed anytime soon.!

When State law conflicts with Fed. law, State law wins (in that state) unless the Fed has moved to totally control that field. (i.e interstate commerce etc.)

Stop holding your breath.

The feds didn't ban any NFA firearms as they knew they couldn't, what they could do was tax them. :rolleyes:

hoffmang
12-23-2009, 5:48 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. . . Incorporation only says the 2A applies to the States as well as the Feds. SO what? NO Fed law allows for CCW, AW's SBR etc. etc. No Fed law has ever protected us from 10 round mags or other "reasonable restrictions" on firearms. If fact, with the 1932 NFA, the Feds did move to ban and entire class of firearms (fully auto)
Incorporation will only serve to give us legal leverage against a total ban of handguns (per Heller) and perhaps ammo. You won't be walking down the street carrying your AW legally concealed anytime soon.!

When State law conflicts with Fed. law, State law wins (in that state) unless the Fed has moved to totally control that field. (i.e interstate commerce etc.)

Stop holding your breath.
I can't even begin to explain to you how incorrect your interpretation of how the American legal systems works is. I'll make it simple for you though. Compare Washington States' laws to California's laws. In Washington State there is a real right to keep and bear arms and in California there is not. Starting in July 2010 there will be a real right to keep and bear arms in California enforced through Federal courts. California's laws will end up being very close to Washington's laws.

Do your surprises include cases that will be filed before June? Since the legal system moves slowly, don't more cases need to be filed now so that we gain 6 months?

There are a surprise or two before June but those will not primarily be 2A cases. There is no reason to file before McDonald is released because any case filed before that will be stayed pending the outcome of McDonald.

-Gene

GrizzlyGuy
12-23-2009, 5:58 PM
Life is to short to wait to enjoy a freedom that millions of U.S. Citizens enjoy. But you are correct, there are many other things that make it easy to leave this rat hole of a state.:D

Exactly. Gun rights are only one issue among many other reasons (IMHO better reasons) for leaving this state. And, the founding fathers intended for people to vote with your feet: if you didn't like the laws in one state, you are free to move for another. See here (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2009/12/18/MNN51B5T8V.DTL), lots of ex-Californians are taking advantage of our founders' intent:

California's population growth slowed over the past year as tens of thousands of residents moved away - many of them heading to other Western states, according to the state Department of Finance...

My wife and I are preparing for day-after-incorporation by looking for suitable properties in NV or NH to move to. We probably won't get out by the time that McDonald is decided, but we're trying. :D

ke6guj
12-23-2009, 6:03 PM
There are a surprise or two before June but those will not primarily be 2A cases. interesting

Sgt Raven
12-23-2009, 6:42 PM
Well for my planned move it has to do with wayyyy more then gun laws...but that is right up there. Guns for me are one of my hobbies...not a way of life.

For me it is mainly to do with the attitude of this sate in regards to the legal/police system.

.......snip.............
One of my close fiends son who is 22 was recently detained and had his car searched by a Forest Service Ranger at Shasta Lake for approaching the ranger and making sure he was allowed to camp on the lake shore. After having earlier bought a campfire permit and being told by the Ranger Station that is was ok to camp for up to 14 days on the lake shore.
The ranger asked him why he wanted to camp on the lake. Then asked him if he had drugs. When he tried to answer, the ranger made him get out of the car claiming he smelled pot. He called in a K9/drug sniffing dog unit and tore his car apart...finding NOTHING illegal.
After 2+ hours of being hand cuffed and laying in the dirt they told him to get the hell outta there....and here is the great part...they told him he should buy a nicer car...get a hair cut...and not dress like a hippy and he would have no problems with the law!?!?!
This kid is a 4.0 gpa jr. at the local Christian University and his brother is a local city cop here in Redding. No run in's with the law prior to this, no traffic tickets,etc.
....snip........
Take care and Merry Christmas,Stan

Has your friend's son filed a complaint with Internal Affairs?

wildhawker
12-23-2009, 7:26 PM
Trust me when I say that I'm entirely cognizant of those other compounding reasons (and probably unaware of many other perfectly valid ones). Extraordinary taxation at many levels, environmental laws and regs leading to tail-wagging-the-economic-dog, failing infrastructure...

However, it's December and we'll have a sunny, mid-50s Christmas with family and friends. I'm minutes away from anything and just a couple of hours away from being surrounded by nothing. There are some conveniences and benefits of residence worth fighting for.

Exactly. Gun rights are only one issue among many other reasons (IMHO better reasons) for leaving this state. And, the founding fathers intended for people to vote with your feet: if you didn't like the laws in one state, you are free to move for another. See here (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2009/12/18/MNN51B5T8V.DTL), lots of ex-Californians are taking advantage of our founders' intent:



My wife and I are preparing for day-after-incorporation by looking for suitable properties in NV or NH to move to. We probably won't get out by the time that McDonald is decided, but we're trying. :D

NovaTodd
12-23-2009, 9:04 PM
I agree that this state is screwed up as far a laws go and of course add in the revenue agents posing as law enforcement officers AND the state's 10% sales tax plus all the laws that are killing our economy (and not just the recession). However, having lived in the MidWest, I really don't want to give-up my 300+ days of sunshine a year.
I would rather give my time and effort to correct the infringements on our rights and prevent said infringement from spreading to the entire country.
As I stated in another thread, once Christmas is over, I will be sending a donation to the Calguns Foundation to assist in this fight.

IrishPirate
12-23-2009, 9:06 PM
Well we'll need to prepare a bill to make it a National Holiday. The greatest thing since the 4th of July!!!!!!!

bodger
12-23-2009, 9:13 PM
I agree that this state is screwed up as far a laws go and of course add in the revenue agents posing as law enforcement officers AND the state's 10% sales tax plus all the laws that are killing our economy (and not just the recession). However, having lived in the MidWest, I really don't want to give-up my 300+ days of sunshine a year.
I would rather give my time and effort to correct the infringements on our rights and prevent said infringement from spreading to the entire country.
As I stated in another thread, once Christmas is over, I will be sending a donation to the Calguns Foundation to assist in this fight.


I like the weather too. That's why I stayed here when I got discharged at Travis.
And time and effort to correct infringements is a small enough price to pay.
But I have a time frame on the wait. I'm not going to settle for five years after incorporation until I can toss that annoying bullet button in the dirt. And the 10 round mag neutered down from 30.

Yeah, let's see if we can spruce up the old hag. If not, I'll gladly trade her in for another model. I have no sentimental attachment to CA. I wasn't born here, and there are things about it I have never liked. All of which seem to be magnified every year.

Mulay El Raisuli
12-24-2009, 5:16 AM
The cases that will move forward right after McDonald:

Peņa - Can the state ban half of handguns?
Sykes - Can the sheriff not issue a license to carry to any law abiding citizen?
Nordyke - Can counties ban gun shows from public property - especially under the sensitive places doctrine?
Jackson - Can SF require "safe storage" and ban the sale of hollow point ammunition?

Lots more details on the cases can be seen on the CGF wiki (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page).

And a couple of surprises :)

-Gene


I am positively giddy with anticipation.


The Raisuli

CDFingers
12-24-2009, 5:58 AM
Don't count your conservative justices before they've ruled:

quotes:

>Justice Antonin Scalia’s majority opinion in Heller noted that, because the plaintiffs “conceded at oral argument” that they do not “have a problem with… licensing,” the court would “not address the licensing requirement.” The appeals court in that case did, however, and suggested that registration was just fine: “Reasonable restrictions also might be thought consistent with a ‘well regulated militia.’ The registration of firearms gives the government information as to how many people would be armed for militia service if called up.”

link:

http://www.luxlibertas.com/sorry-mandatory-gun-registration-is-constitutional/

The anti's will chase registration/licensing. The only way, the only way to avoid it is to show that registration/licensing is an infringement.

If one of the purposes of the Second is to protect citizens against a tyrannical .gov, then the names/addresses where the guns are should never be known to that very same .gov.

To do otherwise is an infringement on our RKBA.

CDFingers

Midian
12-24-2009, 6:11 AM
Well, as I said on another thread, I'm glad to have these cats in the driver's seat, trudging through the snarl of courts and whatnot to regain our 2nd Amendment rights.

More power to you, guys.

Sure be nice to have the roster and mag restrictions go away. Shall issue seems unreachable, but hell, I never thought an illegal alien would be in the White House, either.

EBR Works
12-24-2009, 7:27 AM
Incorporation=

QHZR9SA5pOg

Post 88
12-24-2009, 9:35 AM
How to prepare for the day after incorporation????

Cash!!! I need a lot of Cash!!!! A lot of cash to buy the rifles and magazines not available to us in the past!!!!

bodger
12-24-2009, 11:17 AM
How to prepare for the day after incorporation????

Cash!!! I need a lot of Cash!!!! A lot of cash to buy the rifles and magazines not available to us in the past!!!!


I wonder if incorporation will change the minds of many of the GunBroker sellers and other vendors who won't ship to CA now.

I like to buy guns on the internet as well as locally.

It would be nice to get some good deals on 30 round mags!

AEC1
12-24-2009, 1:46 PM
I have saved all my mag buttons from my LPK's waiting to install them in this state. Unfortunatley I will be up for orders in 2 years and will probably be back in a free state before that happens...

MP301
12-24-2009, 9:56 PM
Pessimism aside for all you nay-sayers.....You at least have to admit the positive direction things have taken since Heller? I have never seen in my entire lifetime (43 years) any positive momentum in favor of our RKBA until now....

And its not that im a "single issue" kind of person, but as its been said before that without the 2nd amendment, how can we expect to keep the other ones?

You should be cautiously optomistic at a minimum....

yellowfin
12-25-2009, 3:17 PM
Out here in NYS we have things we'd like post incorporation:

1. NYC carry
2. Non resident NJ and MD carry and NJ/MD shall issue
3. New 30 round mags (can buy all the pre 94 mags you want, but I want PMags, dammit!)
4. No feature bans
5. Suppressors
6. No NYC long gun licensing (WTF is that about anyway?)
7. No license required to purchase pistols
8. Open Carry- we have no OC at all
9. Bloomberg and NYPD anti gun people charged, removed, and jailed under US 18-242.

pMcW
12-25-2009, 9:52 PM
Starting in July 2010 there will be a real right to keep and bear arms in California enforced through Federal courts. California's laws will end up being very close to Washington's laws.

I like the sound of that (having moved here from there). Cautious optimism it is.

CABilly
12-26-2009, 3:13 AM
I'll be on the lookout for my CA militia registration form with attached declination/firearm surrender form.

hoffmang
12-26-2009, 10:06 AM
I'll be on the lookout for my CA militia registration form with attached declination/firearm surrender form.

It will show up right after your sedition speech license... Keep waiting!

-Gene

Aegis
12-26-2009, 12:19 PM
Have the judges prepared the opposition in Sykes and Pena to be ready for the decision in McDonald?

If SCOUTS incorporates through McDonald, will the original Nordyke ruling of incorporation stand?

I hope the opposition in these cases are not allowed to drag out the process. The opposition has had more than enough time to prepare.

wildhawker
12-26-2009, 1:12 PM
How can one prepare for a decision that has yet to be written?

McDonald will be the binding precedent that incorporates; Nordyke's panel opinion was vacated by the en banc court the afternoon of orals. We'll likely see another en banc oral argument scheduled soon after McDonald is published. Nordyke can serve to clarify the issues of sensitive places and gun show bans at public fairgrounds.