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Sionadi
12-21-2009, 10:08 PM
Alright i have gotten mixed views on this. If you get pulled over and the officer asks if you have any firearms (and you do) do you say "no", "i am not obligated to answer this question", or "yes"?

cc4usmc
12-21-2009, 10:16 PM
Already been threads on this..

ChuckBooty
12-21-2009, 10:20 PM
You are not required to say anything that may incriminate you (per the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution). You're best answer (provided it's true) is to say, "I have nothing illegal in my car officer". Then ask why you were pulled over.

Trojan Bayonet
12-21-2009, 10:22 PM
Reply that you do not have anything illegal and that you do not consent to a search of your vehicle. If you exit your vehicle, close the door with your windows up. Remember the bar for what is considered to be a "reasonable" search on the road is much lower than one's domicile in the eyes of the law, regardless of whether you agree or not.

Milsurp Collector
12-21-2009, 10:24 PM
Alright i have gotten mixed views on this. If you get pulled over and the officer asks if you have any firearms (and you do) do you say "no", "i am not obligated to answer this question", or "yes"?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=244135

Sionadi
12-21-2009, 10:25 PM
I know there has, am i not allowed to take a easy route of finding information without going through pages of posts using the search button to find a easy answer?
Already been threads on this..



alright, thanks for the help everyone.

kf6tac
12-21-2009, 11:38 PM
I know there has, am i not allowed to take a easy route of finding information without going through pages of posts using the search button to find a easy answer?

It's generally frowned upon, because if one person gets to do it, soon everyone will do it ;)

lumwilliam
12-21-2009, 11:42 PM
I'd be scared that the response "I've got nothing illegal" might be deemed inflammatory by said officer, and I for one don't want to be the first asian Rodney King. What are the consequences of saying "no" when the correct answer is "yes officer, there is a gun in the vehicle"? Can't that be followed by "but it is legal and I will not open up my trunk show it to you"?

MindBuilder
12-21-2009, 11:46 PM
I don't think it will do any good to say you have nothing illegal in your car in response to the question whether you have guns. The cop will just say your guns may not be illegal but he still wants to know if you have any. Further refusal to answer the question will be taken as a yes.

I haven't thought of a very good alternative, but the best I've come up with is when he asks the first question like "where are you going" then say "lets just stick to the issue you stopped me for". Then after that when he asks if you have any guns in the car, repeating that you want to stick to the issue he pulled you over for, won't be any reason to assume you do have guns. It has the added advantage of deflecting a lot of other undesirable questions as well.

If asked permission to search, say "I think searches are intrusive and insulting" If he asks what you have to hide, say "business secrets, personal secrets, legal secrets, and political secrets." When you list the kind of secrets you have, start off with business secrets, because everybody appreciates the profit motive. End with political secrets because fighting for what is right politically can't be condemned. And be sure to throw in legal secrets, because although legal secrets are often held by criminals, lawyers and judges will respect this need for privacy if you end up in court. But keep the legal secrets thing buried in the middle of the list so the cop won't dwell on it and think you're consulting with a lawyer because you're in trouble with the law.

cbn620
12-22-2009, 12:04 AM
I'd be scared that the response "I've got nothing illegal" might be deemed inflammatory by said officer, and I for one don't want to be the first asian Rodney King. What are the consequences of saying "no" when the correct answer is "yes officer, there is a gun in the vehicle"? Can't that be followed by "but it is legal and I will not open up my trunk show it to you"?

Now you've just given them consent to search your vehicle. They will do it. Now you will have the "convenience" of waiting at least 45 minutes. Inflammatory doesn't justify a search, and lying to an officer could be construed to be a crime. It is also bad news just on an officer-to-citizen level since if he catches you in a lie (and they may well), everything you say is taken with that much more scrutiny. You now have a police officer pawing your guns, perhaps running the serial numbers.

If he doesn't know gun laws to the letter of the law, he can and will make your life a living hell. You don't have to break the law to get into a heap of trouble. Worst case scenario, you can even be arrested, and even if you were not doing a single thing illegal and charges are eventually dropped, that is time and hassle and stress you can never get back.

There is no benefit to giving them information. It is your business and yours alone. If they are asking, obviously they do not know if you have weapons or drugs, and thus have no reason to search you or your vehicle. If you tell them, then you've just given them reason to believe so and possibly enough reasonable suspicion/probable cause (depending on your precise answer and the officer's interpretation of what these things constitute) to search your stuff. The question is gotcha games at its finest.

picasso
12-22-2009, 12:33 AM
If he doesn't know gun laws to the letter of the law, he can and will make your life a living hell. You don't have to break the law to get into a heap of trouble. Worst case scenario, you can even be arrested, and even if you were not doing a single thing illegal and charges are eventually dropped, that is time and hassle and stress you can never get back.

If this is the case, can you be compensated for this mistake?

Turo
12-22-2009, 12:38 AM
If this is the case, can you be compensated for this mistake?

Heh sure, if spending thousands of your own dollars and lots of time in court to prove your innocence can be considered compensation.
(this is assuming they think something is wrong and accuse you of doing some misdeed.)

Remember, an officer can make all the mistakes he/she wants and that's just a mistake for them. You make one mistake and it could cost you your guns/money/ability to own guns.

Cokebottle
12-22-2009, 12:47 AM
If this is the case, can you be compensated for this mistake?
Nope.

The "good faith" clause protects the officer personally.

If the officer was blatantly guilty of misconduct (and you have video/audio evidence), you might be able to find an attorney willing to sue the agency, but not unless you were roughed up or the situation ended up causing extreme financial loss.

And even then, an award would be unlikely.

bigcalidave
12-22-2009, 1:26 AM
You would say NO... Why wouldn't you just say no? If it's asked in passing, they are fishing. If you say no, and you don't freak out and act like you are lying, they will probably believe you! If they ask you to search your vehicle you say "absolutely not, I'm sorry but I have somewhere to be. May I go now?"

If it escalates, you aren't saying another WORD. If they have you out of your car, shut up. If they start searching after you told them no, SHUT UP. Once it has gone that far the only thing you say is " I want a lawyer"

Mayhem
12-22-2009, 2:35 AM
These aren't the droids your looking for.

BillCA
12-22-2009, 3:17 AM
When asked if I had any "drugs, weapons or national secrets" in the car I laughed and asked the officer if I could see his "fishing license" first. He got the point and stopped asking questions.

If they do ask questions unrelated to the purpose of the stop and you feel uncomfortable, simply say, "I have a right to remain silent which I am now going to exercise." Then zip your lip. Exercising a constitutional right is not legal "cause" of any sort for the officer to take action. (Not that it won't prevent them from getting "creative").

vantec08
12-22-2009, 4:09 AM
had one asked me once "have anything in the car you dont want me to see?" I asked him if he was conducting a criminal investigation - he answered no - I said then I'm outta here, right? he gave my license back and left.

GrizzlyGuy
12-22-2009, 7:29 AM
I know there has, am i not allowed to take a easy route of finding information without going through pages of posts using the search button to find a easy answer?

Here is my easy answer (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3371590&posted=1#post3371590).

Glock22Fan
12-22-2009, 7:47 AM
I'd be scared that the response "I've got nothing illegal" might be deemed inflammatory by said officer, and I for one don't want to be the first asian Rodney King. What are the consequences of saying "no" when the correct answer is "yes officer, there is a gun in the vehicle"? Can't that be followed by "but it is legal and I will not open up my trunk show it to you"?

As soon as he or she knows you have a gun in the car, whether you tell him or he sees it (or an obvious gun case) through the window, he has the right to examine the gun to see if it is unloaded. He won't let you get the gun yourself, and it is surprising how much of a search he can manage to do just retrieving the firearm.

You have no obligation to tell him that you have a gun, and you are better off not telling him.

It's people who are scared of upsetting "the man" who give "the man" the expectation that everyone will cave in to him. This then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And the reason that people should do a search first is because otherwise more experienced users will say "Oh no, not that topic again! What an XXXXX! Too XXXX to use a search? That must be the third (or fifth) time this last two weeks!"

HowardW56
12-22-2009, 7:48 AM
Alright i have gotten mixed views on this. If you get pulled over and the officer asks if you have any firearms (and you do) do you say "no", "i am not obligated to answer this question", or "yes"?


Answer the question with a question....

Why have you stopped me...

Am I being detained, may I leave?

CHS
12-22-2009, 7:57 AM
If an officer asks me a question totally unrelated to the traffic stop in question like 'Do you have any firearms or weapons in the car?', I will flat-out lie with a straight face to them and say "No, Sir." It's legal and the shortest route to a positive ending on a traffic stop.

Be nice. Be courteous. But don't tell him the truth just because you think you have to. It really P/O's cops when you repeat over and over 'I have nothing illegal in my vehicle', because you're answering their question without answering their question. What on earth is the sense in getting a cop mad at you?

"No, sir!"

Serpentine
12-22-2009, 8:03 AM
OK, this is stating the obvious.

If you want to be stress free about being pulled over and having a confrontation with law enforcement, the best thing you can do is to not get pulled over in the first place, especially if know you could find yourself in a possible uncertain predicament.

Pay your registration on time, abide by the speed laws, don't drink and drive, lock your gun in a case, separated from the ammo, etc.

Public safety is the biggest issue here. If the officer has any reason to think you may be jeopardizing public safety - you are going to have to answer for it. If you are making your best efforts to not be a public safety 'concern,' you shouldn't have any problems. Pushing the limits is not only stressful all around, but can be very expensive too - and for what ends?

This too. If an officer can see your gun cases, ammo boxes, brass casings, hearing protection, etc., from outside your vehicle then so can a thief. Your guns are more likely to be stolen from you than taken by an officer (providing you are otherwise abiding by the laws). When guns get stolen, now you not only have lost them, but you have vehicle damage, insurance claims, ATF and DOJ reports, and whole lot more worries on your hands. Your guns are now on the street in a criminal's hands.

Go to a thrift store and get yourself a dark, non reflecting (like fleece, velour, felt, wool) blanket and cover up ALL your stuff. A surplus USGI wool blanket works well too.



.

Glock22Fan
12-22-2009, 8:26 AM
If an officer asks me a question totally unrelated to the traffic stop in question like 'Do you have any firearms or weapons in the car?', I will flat-out lie with a straight face to them and say "No, Sir." It's legal and the shortest route to a positive ending on a traffic stop.

Be nice. Be courteous. But don't tell him the truth just because you think you have to. It really P/O's cops when you repeat over and over 'I have nothing illegal in my vehicle', because you're answering their question without answering their question. What on earth is the sense in getting a cop mad at you?

"No, sir!"

I'm one of those people cursed with the inability to lie my way out of a wet paper bag at a kiddies' birthday party.

If I said "no, sir!" to a cop, I'd probably end up in hot water. However, I have said "to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing illegal in this boat" to a British customs agent (and boy, do they have teeth!) and gotten away with it. Had to repeat it a few times, but it ended well and having probed me, the agent obviously ended up believing me.

davescz
12-22-2009, 9:23 AM
Already been threads on this..

so my answer to the cops on the question of guns in the car should be "there is already a thread on this"????

i dont think he will buy that one for a minute.

All depends, if you got the gun and nothing else to hide, let him know, so long as it is supper legal there should be no probelms. if you got high cap mags, nhe may not know the law, so be prepared with written law to show him if he questions high cap mags that you legally own.

so long as gun is unloaded, and correctly locked/stored, and you legally own it, there should be no issue by saying yes. Id hate to lie about it.

then again, part of me says none of his business. but your choice to pick a fight with a cop over his questions,

talk nice, be honest, and you may even get out of the speeding ticket or get a warning on that bad tail light, the original reason for the stop.

CHS
12-22-2009, 9:48 AM
All depends, if you got the gun and nothing else to hide, let him know, so long as it is supper legal there should be no probelms. if you got high cap mags, nhe may not know the law, so be prepared with written law to show him if he questions high cap mags that you legally own.


Yeah, do this. Cops LOOOOOVE it when you try to correct them with your own copy of the PC.


so long as gun is unloaded, and correctly locked/stored, and you legally own it, there should be no issue by saying yes. Id hate to lie about it.


People get hassled, arrested, and their guns taken away all the time because "there should be no issues by saying yes".

Say no and have a nice day.

Glock22Fan
12-22-2009, 9:53 AM
How many times do all the experts, both lawyers and police, have to tell us that the fastest and surest way we can get into trouble is to talk ourselves into trouble, and people still say "Cooperate with the nice policeman."

SoCalDep
12-22-2009, 10:22 AM
It's hard to say one way or another. Some will say not to talk and that can get you into trouble. Some will say to talk and that can get you into trouble. I would submit that abiding by those on the extremes of both sides will likely get you into trouble.

There are anti-gun cops, just like there are anti-gun everything else. There are also pro-gun cops. We are all big boys and girls and we have to decide what to do given the particulars of a situation.

I cannot and will not tell anyone what to do, because I am not them, and I don't know what cop will pull them over. I can say that if you are legal and cooperate, you are not likely to have a problem. (I won't say it's impossible)

If you are legal and (for lack of a better term) evasive, you may be delayed, but likely won't get into trouble. You absolutely have constitutional rights to remain silent, protection under the 4th Amendment, etc., but Law Enforcement has authority and is more likely to exercise that authority in this case.

I'll give you an example...I conducted a traffic stop the other day on a vehicle for a minor traffic violation and a child not in a safety seat. As soon as I walk up to the car and ask for the driver's license, the smart-a@@ 19yr old wanna-be lawyer in the passenger seat pipes up with "Why you pull us over!" I start talking to the driver (who was respectful and apologetic) and the passenger starts shaking his head and "pfft"ing as I tell them about the traffic violation. He starts to argue with me over the violation, all the while I can tell the driver is getting uncomfortable with her passengers little game (as she had something to loose, unlike loudmouth).

I spoke to the driver and she was aware of the child safety seat law. Her child was above the maximum age and just below the minimum weight. She appeared genuine.

I walked back to my car to debate in my head. The child was almost within the law, and the traffic violation was minor. Then again, the passenger was a jerk. He's allowed to be that way but I'm also allowed to write the driver a nice expensive ticket.

I walked back to the car, handed the driver her license, and explained that she needed to put the child in a safety seat. She said she would. I then told the passenger that he almost talked his driver into a ticket. I don't think He got the message and he better hope I don't see him driving, because now I know he has a suspended license and I will not be inclined to show him any discretion.

At the same time, and while not common, there are those horror stories about violations of rights so I understand the hesitation and concern regarding traffic stops. I only hope that people understand that cops are people too and many of us are very pro-gun and pro-personal protection. We are not all the enemy.

pullnshoot25
12-22-2009, 10:24 AM
Damn, some of you guys are STILL having problems with basic 4/5A issues? Criminey!

NorCalMama
12-22-2009, 10:40 AM
You would say NO... Why wouldn't you just say no? If it's asked in passing, they are fishing. If you say no, and you don't freak out and act like you are lying, they will probably believe you! If they ask you to search your vehicle you say "absolutely not, I'm sorry but I have somewhere to be. May I go now?"

If it escalates, you aren't saying another WORD. If they have you out of your car, shut up. If they start searching after you told them no, SHUT UP. Once it has gone that far the only thing you say is " I want a lawyer"

Ok, I worry about this because if you tell them "No" initially to not create any suspicion, but then deny them the ability to search your vehicle, it seems counter productive because denying them the search (which I agree with, NEVER consent to a search) may cause the same suspicion you are trying to avoid. And THEN, if they deem that "probably cause" and search and find the guns you lied and said you didn't have, what are the possible ramifications?
I agree with Grizzly-just stay silent. Remember, anything you say can and will be used AGAINST you in a court of law-NOTHING you say can be used to benefit you.

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CHS
12-22-2009, 11:01 AM
And THEN, if they deem that "probably cause" and search and find the guns you lied and said you didn't have, what are the possible ramifications?


There aren't any legal ramifications.

mej16489
12-22-2009, 11:16 AM
As soon as he or she knows you have a gun in the car, whether you tell him or he sees it (or an obvious gun case) through the window, he has the right to examine the gun to see if it is unloaded. He won't let you get the gun yourself, and it is surprising how much of a search he can manage to do just retrieving the firearm.



This is only true if you are in a location where 'loaded' is prohibited.

PC 12031(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.

Glock22Fan
12-22-2009, 11:33 AM
This is only true if you are in a location where 'loaded' is prohibited.

PC 12031(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.

Yes, there are exceptions to what I said. This exception probably occurs to a very small number of journeys on which you might get stopped. Unless you are driving avoiding all towns and places where shooting is banned, it would be pretty stupid to rely on it for any size of journey. Therefore I didn't mention it as what I said defaults to "safe" wherever you are.

Cokebottle
12-22-2009, 11:37 AM
had one asked me once "have anything in the car you dont want me to see?" I asked him if he was conducting a criminal investigation - he answered no - I said then I'm outta here, right? he gave my license back and left.
THAT is a trick question, as answering "no" could be construed as consent to search.

Chris M
12-22-2009, 11:38 AM
Don't voluntarily provide any information. Don't lie, as it could definitely come back to bite you, should the situation escalate, and the officer finds out that you lied, and do in fact have firearms in the vehicle, whether they are legal or not. IMO, the best answer is "I don't have anything illegal in the vehicle.", even if the vehicle is completely void of any guns, ammo, sharp objects, etc.

Other phrases that can be very helpful:

"Am I under Arrest?" followed by "Am I free to go?"

And the ever popular, "I do not consent to any illegal searches."

Personally, I don't have anything to hide, but would still not volunteer any information.

There was a video posted a while back entitled something along the lines of "Don't talk to cops". It's long, but definitely worth watching.

Nodaedul
12-22-2009, 12:41 PM
As Socaldep says, not all cops are your enemy. Since you don't know which ones are then I say treat them all like the enemy.

It's really very simple. You don't have to say anything to police or answer any questions. Treat them like robots, ignore their human emotions, produce the 3 items of paperwork reqired, and just ignore any other questions comming out of their mouth.

And always record the interaction on your cell phone recorder, a separate recorder, or both!

Crazed_SS
12-22-2009, 1:04 PM
Dont lie.. If things do escalate, and your lie is revealed, you could get jammed up for obstructing a peace officer.

EDIT: Here's an example.. http://www.times-standard.com/ci_14024521?source=most_viewed .. I think it's PC 148.

Cokebottle
12-22-2009, 1:21 PM
Dont lie.. If things do escalate, and your lie is revealed, you could get jammed up for obstructing a peace officer.

EDIT: Here's an example.. http://www.times-standard.com/ci_14024521?source=most_viewed .. I think it's PC 148.
This is a dead horse, but PC 148 applies to obstructing a police officer who is in the process of a criminal investigation.

Until it has been determined THAT a crime has been committed, there is no criminal investigation.

Crazed_SS
12-22-2009, 1:29 PM
This is a dead horse, but PC 148 applies to obstructing a police officer who is in the process of a criminal investigation.

Until it has been determined THAT a crime has been committed, there is no criminal investigation.

Is that the case? That's not how the PC reads..

148. (a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical technician, as defined in Division 2.5 (commencing with Section 1797) of the Health and Safety Code, in the discharge or attempt to discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment

My buddy is a deputy and he says they use that one pretty much anytime someone lies or gives them a hard time. I dunno, maybe youre right.. I still wouldnt outright lie to the cops.

bigcalidave
12-22-2009, 1:46 PM
Saying "no" does not constitute PC for a search, neither does saying you don't consent to the search! And how is the officer going to know that you are lying without illegally searching your car? Like I said, if you shut up once the situation is escalated, your lawyer can handle the rest. You won't lie to the cops? sure, some may not be bad guys. But it's not worth the hassle to say sure I've got guns, wanna see?

Chris M
12-22-2009, 1:55 PM
Saying "no" does not constitute PC for a search, neither does saying you don't consent to the search! And how is the officer going to know that you are lying without illegally searching your car? Like I said, if you shut up once the situation is escalated, your lawyer can handle the rest. You won't lie to the cops? sure, some may not be bad guys. But it's not worth the hassle to say sure I've got guns, wanna see?

There's no need to lie...just don't provide any information.

Everything you say can and will be used against you.
Nothing you say will be used to support you.

It's better to keep quiet, answer questions with questions, or make simple, blanket statements such as "There is nothing illegal in the vehicle."

I found the video I referred to in my prior post:
Don't Talk to Cops
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

MudCamper
12-22-2009, 2:03 PM
At the same time, and while not common, there are those horror stories about violations of rights so I understand the hesitation and concern regarding traffic stops.

Like this one (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=250919). Quite common. Most just don't have a happy ending.

bigcalidave
12-22-2009, 2:10 PM
There's no need to lie...just don't provide any information.

Everything you say can and will be used against you.
Nothing you say will be used to support you.

It's better to keep quiet, answer questions with questions, or make simple, blanket statements such as "There is nothing illegal in the vehicle."

I found the video I referred to in my prior post:
Don't Talk to Cops
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Everyone's seen that video, I hope. Did you notice I totally advocated staying quiet? Saying no to the fishing questions has the same effect, they leave you alone.

lumwilliam
12-22-2009, 11:26 PM
As soon as he or she knows you have a gun in the car, whether you tell him or he sees it (or an obvious gun case) through the window, he has the right to examine the gun to see if it is unloaded. He won't let you get the gun yourself, and it is surprising how much of a search he can manage to do just retrieving the firearm.

You have no obligation to tell him that you have a gun, and you are better off not telling him.

It's people who are scared of upsetting "the man" who give "the man" the expectation that everyone will cave in to him. This then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And the reason that people should do a search first is because otherwise more experienced users will say "Oh no, not that topic again! What an XXXXX! Too XXXX to use a search? That must be the third (or fifth) time this last two weeks!"

I hear exactly what you are saying, but when a cop pulls you over for going 5mph over the speed limit, or at one of the drivers license checkpoints getting so popular in San Diego, and you sooo feel that you're about to be allowed to go upon your merry way, then you get asked "do you have any drugs or weapons in the car", you sooo just want to answer "no". I can see myself saying "I have nothing illegal in my vehicle" and seeing him thinking "I'm spending the next 45 minutes with this smartass here on the side of the road because he's got something to hide."

Can someone tell me what the repercussions would be to answering "no" when the answer to the question is "yes"? While you're at it, can you also tell me what the punishment is when the postman asks "is there anything liquid in this box?" and you answer "no" when sending mom her Christmas perfume? Stupid, stupid lack of freedom :(

bigcalidave
12-23-2009, 12:08 AM
I hear exactly what you are saying, but when a cop pulls you over for going 5mph over the speed limit, or at one of the drivers license checkpoints getting so popular in San Diego, and you sooo feel that you're about to be allowed to go upon your merry way, then you get asked "do you have any drugs or weapons in the car", you sooo just want to answer "no". I can see myself saying "I have nothing illegal in my vehicle" and seeing him thinking "I'm spending the next 45 minutes with this smartass here on the side of the road because he's got something to hide."

Can someone tell me what the repercussions would be to answering "no" when the answer to the question is "yes"? While you're at it, can you also tell me what the punishment is when the postman asks "is there anything liquid in this box?" and you answer "no" when sending mom her Christmas perfume? Stupid, stupid lack of freedom :(

Well you could waste that 45 minutes, or say no and be on your way. How is saying no going to get your car searched? No PC for a search is no PC. Like I keep saying, if they decide you look like a criminal, you're screwed already and if they pull you out of the car you are done talking until you see your lawyer.

SoCalDep
12-23-2009, 7:37 AM
Can someone tell me what the repercussions would be to answering "no" when the answer to the question is "yes"? While you're at it, can you also tell me what the punishment is when the postman asks "is there anything liquid in this box?" and you answer "no" when sending mom her Christmas perfume? Stupid, stupid lack of freedom :(

There's nothing illegal about saying "no" to the LEO's question. If it was illegal to lie to a cop, We'd overflow our jail every day. If your guns are legal, and you're not doing anything otherwise suspicious, I can't fault you for saying "no" to avoid all the theatrics, and quite frankly would rather not waste my time on someone who is law abiding. If the person isn't law abiding, it's likely I'll have other resources regardless.

Now, when it comes to Federal mail or lying to a Federal Agent....Don't do it. Bad JuJu. Just read the signs in the Post Office. They usually have the Federal sections quoted...

Glock22Fan
12-23-2009, 7:46 AM
How often do you guys get stopped anyway? If you are talking 45 minutes out of every day or three, then maybe you should lie. Maybe you should also find out what you are doing wrong and fix it (unless it is driving while . . . (fill in the blank)).

I've been stopped once in the last twenty plus years, and let go again without problems and just a warning. He didn't ask if I had guns in the car, even though we were in California and he did see my Utah CCW next to my CDL. If it takes me 45 minutes if I behave as the constitution allows, so be it. "He who gives up his rights for the sake of 45 minutes deserves neither" or something.

SoCalDep
12-23-2009, 8:11 AM
Like this one (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=250919). Quite common. Most just don't have a happy ending.

The negative incidents are going to be much more public and popular. I still think that negative (and inappropriate, if not illegal) action towards OLL's isn't as common as we might think, and is becoming even less prevalent as agencies become more aware of the law. I can say that I have never come across any legal-configuration OLL-type guns while on duty (except other deputies showing of their OLL's) but I have come across several illegal CA "Assault Weapons", including a non-registered SKS with pistol grip and detachable 30rd mag (two weeks ago). I would submit this is probably a consistent trend (we generally look for the bad guys, not the good ones) across the board and may explain (though I agree not justify) some of the attitudes and reactions toward these weapons.

If you have cop friends/acquaintances, the flow-chart might be a good tool to provide them. If you can show them the different configurations, that may also assist them in becoming familiar with legal guns and they can then help educate their partners and become a resource. I was called to the scene of the above SKS for that exact reason (to determine if it was a legal configuration) and if it had been, the person would have been on their way.

I still understand not wanting to "invite" such scrutiny over legal guns, but treating all cops like the enemy is a cop-out (bwahahah) that is both hypocritical..."Cops need to treat us like nice upstanding people and not stereotype, but they're all the enemy out to violate our rights!"... and detrimental to the pro-gun effort. Remember, we want law enforcement to be more understanding but when animosity is created instead of empathy, we simply can't be surprised when they publicize those few cases where a small percentage of the population violates the law. They will make us look bad, and the media-watching public will become a little less friendly.

I'm not saying not to go to town over the bad ones (above referenced OCSD thread being an example), but lets not alienate all cops. Several comments have made me feel less than welcome here and I'm on your side. Imagine how it plays to many other cops and, of course, the population in general. Don't think outsiders aren't watching what is said here and using it to plan how to make us our own worst enemy.

Cokebottle
12-23-2009, 9:33 AM
How often do you guys get stopped anyway? If you are talking 45 minutes out of every day or three, then maybe you should lie. Maybe you should also find out what you are doing wrong and fix it (unless it is driving while . . . (fill in the blank)).
Some people get stopped daily, or nearly daily, in border patrol checkpoints during their commute or during the course of a workday.

BuckyG has been pulled into secondary, detained, and had his car searched.

MudCamper
12-23-2009, 9:42 AM
I'm not saying not to go to town over the bad ones (above referenced OCSD thread being an example), but lets not alienate all cops. Several comments have made me feel less than welcome here and I'm on your side. Imagine how it plays to many other cops and, of course, the population in general. Don't think outsiders aren't watching what is said here and using it to plan how to make us our own worst enemy.

What we need are more cops like you, SoCalDep.

GrizzlyGuy
12-23-2009, 9:48 AM
Some people get stopped daily, or nearly daily, in border patrol checkpoints during their commute or during the course of a workday.

BuckyG has been pulled into secondary, detained, and had his car searched.

Yup, and his car was scratched up (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=238911), all because he chose not to answer their 'do you have any weapons?' question. That's what life is like for people who live down in the Constitution-free Zones (http://www.aclu.org/national-security_technology-and-liberty/are-you-living-constitution-free-zone). :(

The Director
12-23-2009, 9:52 AM
How often do you guys get stopped anyway? If you are talking 45 minutes out of every day or three, then maybe you should lie. Maybe you should also find out what you are doing wrong and fix it (unless it is driving while . . . (fill in the blank)).

I've been stopped once in the last twenty plus years, and let go again without problems and just a warning. He didn't ask if I had guns in the car, even though we were in California and he did see my Utah CCW next to my CDL. If it takes me 45 minutes if I behave as the constitution allows, so be it. "He who gives up his rights for the sake of 45 minutes deserves neither" or something.

I've been stopped three times in the last 12-15 years. Once was on a new car, the cop wanted to read the registration thingy on the windshield to make sure it was registered, another time on my wife's car, I was cited for window tint, and the last time was a rolling stop, I think.

Once every five isn't bad. One of them iI was clearly at fault (rolling stop) and deserved it. All encounters were friendly and positive. Nothing even close to "do you have anything in the car"......

GuyW
12-23-2009, 1:12 PM
but lets not alienate all cops. Several comments have made me feel less than welcome here and I'm on your side.

I'm sure that I'm not alone in appreciating your participation here.

Also, many of us that are not LE have been roundly criticized here for other reasons, typically differences of opinion / worldview....
.

lumwilliam
12-23-2009, 4:30 PM
How often do you guys get stopped anyway? If you are talking 45 minutes out of every day or three, then maybe you should lie. Maybe you should also find out what you are doing wrong and fix it (unless it is driving while . . . (fill in the blank)).

I've been stopped once in the last twenty plus years, and let go again without problems and just a warning. He didn't ask if I had guns in the car, even though we were in California and he did see my Utah CCW next to my CDL. If it takes me 45 minutes if I behave as the constitution allows, so be it. "He who gives up his rights for the sake of 45 minutes deserves neither" or something.

I've heard stories...don't know if they're urban legends, about CHP officers stopping people en mass, who they profile as gun owners coming back so SoCal from Las Vegas after gun shows. I drive thru Escondido (which is north inland San Diego County) often, and have driven thru "drivers license checkpoints (don't know how constitutional those are). I've never been stopped at one, and since I entered my 30's, haven't been stopped at all, but I would just like to know the best course of action from you experienced folks!

Glock22Fan
12-23-2009, 4:40 PM
Some people get stopped daily, or nearly daily, in border patrol checkpoints during their commute or during the course of a workday.

BuckyG has been pulled into secondary, detained, and had his car searched.


Fine, if you are getting stopped every day (which would pi$$ me off no end), then maybe you should experiment with lying.

No idea what the BuckyG story was or whether he agreed to the search or not, so can't really comment.

BillCA
12-24-2009, 2:39 AM
I've heard stories...don't know if they're urban legends, about CHP officers stopping people en mass, who they profile as gun owners coming back so SoCal from Las Vegas after gun shows. I drive thru Escondido (which is north inland San Diego County) often, and have driven thru "drivers license checkpoints (don't know how constitutional those are). I've never been stopped at one, and since I entered my 30's, haven't been stopped at all, but I would just like to know the best course of action from you experienced folks!
Both tactics would be, at the very best, dicey propositions under the constitution.

I've heard of CADOJ supposedly identifying CA visitors to out of state gun shows by their vehicle license plates, observing them in the gun show and later stopping them as they return across the state line. Not sure what they're using for P.C. on the stop (Speed, signaling failures, tailgating, etc.). But an en-masse stop of up to four to ten cars returning from another state, without P.C. for each vehicle, would garner some close scrutiny by the courts.

Likewise, a "Drivers License Checkpoint" that forces the driver into contact with L.E. -- who may ask 'fishing' questions -- merely to check the status of the operator's license smacks of random stop & interrogate incidents in foreign countries.

GrizzlyGuy
12-24-2009, 7:57 AM
Likewise, a "Drivers License Checkpoint" that forces the driver into contact with L.E. -- who may ask 'fishing' questions -- merely to check the status of the operator's license smacks of random stop & interrogate incidents in foreign countries.

They sure do, not at all unlike the 'stop and show papers' checkpoints that were common in a number of infamous tyrannical regimes. Unfortunately, they are perfectly legal in CA, as upheld in People v. Washburn back in 1968. :(

However, 5A still applies, and no one is required to answer any of the questions. As you say, the questions may be 'fishing' questions so politely declining to answer (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3371590&posted=1#post3371590) is the best strategy.

Crazed_SS
12-28-2009, 6:19 AM
I've heard stories...don't know if they're urban legends, about CHP officers stopping people en mass, who they profile as gun owners coming back so SoCal from Las Vegas after gun shows. I drive thru Escondido (which is north inland San Diego County) often, and have driven thru "drivers license checkpoints (don't know how constitutional those are). I've never been stopped at one, and since I entered my 30's, haven't been stopped at all, but I would just like to know the best course of action from you experienced folks!

ACLU is actually challenging those checkpoints..http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/dec/26/drivers-license-checks-reviewed/

It seems many people actually welcome these checkpoints since they think it keeps them safe from unlicsened/uninsured illegals.. this is the danger if welcoming overbearing policing to stop some pereceived threat. Sooner or later it will get used on everyone and then it's not so fun.

PatriotnMore
12-28-2009, 7:01 AM
I walked back to the car, handed the driver her license, and explained that she needed to put the child in a safety seat. She said she would. I then told the passenger that he almost talked his driver into a ticket. I don't think He got the message and he better hope I don't see him driving, because now I know he has a suspended license and I will not be inclined to show him any discretion.

Thanks for being the bigger man with a cool head, the driver was obviously in violation and I am sure she appreciated what you did and gave her passenger an earful of STFU next time, when they left.

edrrt
12-28-2009, 12:40 PM
Some important questions from the above:

1) Is it legal in CA to record your conversation with an officer without their knowledge? Is such a recording admissible in court? If the officer orders you to turn it off, can you be charged if you don't?

2) If you carry a copy of the PC and your DROS with your AR would that be enough to prevent an officer from seizing an OLL. Could they still claim with that documentation that they need to retain it to make the determination with their own investigators? I don't even know if a peace officer has the ability to interpret PC or laws they are not specifically trained on. The flowchart seems reasonable but it is not official and I can see a leo questioning it. What documents is a LEO most likely to believe, read and trust in this setting?

3) If you answer "no" to the "do you have any weapons in the vehicle" question isn't that providing false information to a police officer? Isn't that illegal? Can't you be charged with something under Code 148.9? Isn't it also CA a vehicle code violation? If they are using some federal anti terror act to search you does it become as though you lied to a federal agent?

4) If they ask any questions what’s wrong with just saying in a canned sort of way: “I will comply promptly and professionally with any lawful orders but as a mater of policy I do not make statements during traffic stops beyond that I do not consent to any searches and that to the best of my knowledge there is nothing illegal on my person or in the vehicle." If they ask again you can simply politely re-enforce your position that "I do not provide any statements during a traffic stop." Then, rather than appearing evasive with regard to one specific question (and confirming the answer to that question) it just appears you are informed person trying to be very by the book. To an outsider it may appear like you are trying to hide something but to a LEO, this may seem like the routine as more and more education is provided to the public on the matter. Or if very professional he may think you have some type of legal background making him even more cautious about pressing it? Heck you could even have it typed on a signed card you just hand over with your DL.

Does this type of behavior frustrate and infuriate the average LEO or is it viewed as common now?

Even if they do search your immediate area for being evasive they still can’t get to your OLL, and even if they do and you have your “legal info packet with your DROS and PC’s” sitting right on top would a LEO really be all that upset with you not making statements?

Sniper3142
12-28-2009, 6:26 PM
2) If you carry a copy of the PC and your DROS with your AR would that be enough to prevent an officer from seizing an OLL. Could they still claim with that documentation that they need to retain it to make the determination with their own investigators? I don't even know if a peace officer has the ability to interpret PC or laws they are not specifically trained on. The flowchart seems reasonable but it is not official and I can see a leo questioning it. What documents is a LEO most likely to believe, read and trust in this setting?

If a LEO is bound and determined to take your firearm, there isn't you can do to prevent him/her from at least trying. Demanding another officer (who hopefully actually KNOWS the law, might give them pause).



3) If you answer "no" to the "do you have any weapons in the vehicle" question isn't that providing false information to a police officer? Isn't that illegal? Can't you be charged with something under Code 148.9? Isn't it also CA a vehicle code violation? If they are using some federal anti terror act to search you does it become as though you lied to a federal agent?


A local LEO is NOT a federal agent, regardless of what they are doing. Lying to local LEO is NOT against the law.



Does this type of behavior frustrate and infuriate the average LEO or is it viewed as common now?

Even if they do search your immediate area for being evasive they still can’t get to your OLL, and even if they do and you have your “legal info packet with your DROS and PC’s” sitting right on top would a LEO really be all that upset with you not making statements?

Frustrating a LEO on a fishing trip is also NOT against the law. Some will chime in that standing up for your rights might anger or frustrate a LEO but SO WHAT?!?

Meplat
12-28-2009, 7:10 PM
I'm sure that I'm not alone in appreciating your participation here.

Also, many of us that are not LE have been roundly criticized here for other reasons, typically differences of opinion / worldview....
.

Ya.... Now that you mention it I'm still peeved at you for the last time we disagreed, I just can't remember what it was about.;)