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View Full Version : Is there a gun-lock flow chart?


drclark
12-21-2009, 7:42 AM
Hey all, picked up a pistol I bought on ppt yesterday. Gunshop clown insisted I buy a lock even though the gun had the original mfg lock with it. Said something about CA LAW requiring a lock receipt with 30 days. I said I had a safe and would fill out a safe affidavit. I know that there is a conflict between federal law and state law in that federal law requires a lock and does not recognize the affidavit. But does this apply to new gun sale vs. ppt? Also, as I said before, the original mfg lock was included. I would have thought that for a ppt with lock included, the safe affidavit would have been fine. Gunshop clown insisted I buy another lock. I got tired of trying to debate the law since I wasn't 100% sure so I the stinking lock and drove home feeling ripped off.

I wish gunshops wold have a give a lock/take a lock bin where I could bring the 5 or 6 unopened locks I've accumulated in so the shop could give them away when required.

cdtx2001
12-21-2009, 7:56 AM
After being called FUD, fine, I retract most statements previously made.

I still say I'll be damned if I'm going to buy one of THEIR high priced locks. I've seen some gun stores selling some for as much as $25. I'll go to Walmart and buy one for $5 before I pay that much.

tenpercentfirearms
12-21-2009, 8:08 AM
Have lock=yes=end

Have lock=no=get one=end

Have lock=no=have "CA approved gun safe"= yes=fill out safe affidavit=end

I'll be damned if I'm gonna buy one of THEIR high priced gun locks when I have a perfectly good safe at home.

I can't stand stores that feel they have to go BEYOND the law and be more strict than anyone else.

BTW, were you in Vacaville and having this problem?

A gun lock flow chart would be interesting as is evident by the FUD in the above post. The safe affidavit does not apply to handgun sales by federal law so your statement above is incorrect.

The gun lock flow chart would be interesting to see how many FFLs say they don't give a damn and do what they are going to do anyway. If created and printed out though, it wouldn't cost anyone that doesn't want to try anything and it might help start informing dealers and stop making them be so ignorant on this.

However, it might hurt lock sales and I think it is fairly clear that is what some dealers enjoy.

Glock22Fan
12-21-2009, 8:57 AM
I don't think that you can just go to Walmart and buy any old cheap lock, I think you have to get one that is California approved for gun safety.

Librarian
12-21-2009, 7:15 PM
Text flow chart.

CA State and Federal laws only - local laws omitted.

Handgun:
Requires lock due to Federal law, 18 USC 922 (z), combined with the incompetence of BATF

Lock must be CA-approved - PC 12088.1(a) (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/4/2/1/4.5/s12088.1)

Lock may be included in handgun box as part of purchase

Lock may be supplied by buyer, if it is accompanied by a receipt showing purchase within the prior 30 days before delivery of the handgun - PC 12088.1(e)(1)

Lock must be separately documented by FFL seller - PC 12088.1(e)(4 and 5)


Long gun:

Some safety device required - PC 12088.1(a)
may be a lock, as handgun - see above
may be a gun safe - PC 12088.1(d)
if safe, requires original receipt OR safe affidavit

Edited: re-indented to make clearer - I hope!

KylaGWolf
12-21-2009, 7:57 PM
Librarian thanks for the chart. Here is what gets me it says the lock MAY be included in the handgun box as part of purchase. That being said any gun that has a lock included in the box then covers that requirement. At this point about the only thing I think would end the having to buy a new lock argument is carry a copy of that PC code to show the dealer. Would it stop some of them from still making you buy a lock probably not but worth a shot.

383green
12-21-2009, 8:03 PM
Here is what gets me it says the lock MAY be included in the handgun box as part of purchase. That being said any gun that has a lock included in the box then covers that requirement.

Only if the lock that is included in the box is CA-approved. If the lock is not CA-approved, then it doesn't meet the legal requirement.

Librarian
12-21-2009, 8:27 PM
Have to read the flowchart in order - FIRST is CA-approved, then is 'may be with the gun'.

That's the point of the flowchart form, yes?

cbn620
12-21-2009, 8:29 PM
I took librarian's informative post and put it to graphics. Here's a rough draft in case anyone wants to pretty it up and make it official:

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3621/chart1rough.png (big image; too big to post).

Here's the basic text to facilitate copy/paste:

Is the gun you are purchasing a handgun? - Yes. - !Does the firearm you are purchasing come with a California approved lock sold as part of your sale? - Yes, legal. No, proceed. - Do you currently own a California approved gun lock and can supply a receipt showing purchase within 30 days prior to the delivery of your handgun? Yes. Legal, 12088.1(e)(1).

Is the gun you are purchasing a handgun? - No. - Do you own a gun safe? - Yes; bring the make and model of your gun safe and request a safe affidavit when you purchase your firearm. No, proceed to !.

halifax
12-21-2009, 8:40 PM
I took librarian's informative post and put it to graphics. Here's a rough draft in case anyone wants to pretty it up and make it official:

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3621/chart1rough.png (big image; too big to post).

Here's the basic text to facilitate copy/paste:

Is the gun you are purchasing a handgun? - Yes. - !Does the firearm you are purchasing come with a California approved lock sold as part of your sale? - Yes, legal. No, proceed. - Do you currently own a California approved gun lock and can supply a receipt showing purchase within 30 days prior to the delivery of your handgun? Yes. Legal, 12088.1(e)(1).

Is the gun you are purchasing a handgun? - No. - Do you own a gun safe? - Yes; bring the make and model of your gun safe and request a safe affidavit when you purchase your firearm. No, proceed to !.

Good job but one mistake: Your chart has no "YES" for "Is the gun you are purchasing a handgun?"

cbn620
12-21-2009, 8:46 PM
Ahahaha... My bad. I rushed it to get a general layout. If it were to ever be actually used I figure someone will clean up mistakes. Thanks for the feedback though man, that slipped me one. First flowchart I've ever made, to be honest.

tenpercentfirearms
12-21-2009, 10:53 PM
I don't think that you can just go to Walmart and buy any old cheap lock, I think you have to get one that is California approved for gun safety.
Businesses can't sell non approved FSDs. It is illegal.

Glock22Fan
12-22-2009, 9:15 AM
Businesses can't sell non approved FSDs. It is illegal.

No, but the poster I answered said "buy a cheap lock from Walmart." I believe that Walmart do sell cheap locks, even though they don't pretend to be FSD's

So, it can't be illegal to sell cheap padlocks, so what's illegal? passing them off as approved FSD's when they are not? Who suggested this in this thread?

ontargetrange
12-22-2009, 11:37 AM
All,

Used Firearms:

The idea that you have to purchase a new gun lock while the original factory Kalifornia approved one is still in the box of a used handgun is ridiculous, but we are stuck with laws that make no sense or are logical. For hand guns you have to have the receipt that shows a purchase of an APPROVED LOCK - no exceptions. I can not buy "used" locks and sell them as they are no longer "approved" due to their condition.

Having had 4 audits now where they zeroed in on the lock issue and looking for that receipt, I can say with certainty that it will cost the FFL dearly for not having the little peice of paper. They check dates and model numbers of the locks as written on the front of the DROS and receipt.

New firearms:

All firearms mfg's shipped to Kalifornia have a lock. It is an approved lock - or suppose to be - and that information is recorded on the front of the DROS.

I have done my very best here to get the cheapest lock made that is Kalifornia approved - $7.00 out the door -- there are cheaper locks at nearly half that price, but are not approved. They are the SAME LOCK - just not on the "list".

You would think that at least some of the firearm manufacturers would come up with cheap locks to help out those States with issues, but not happening. We in Kalifornia are low man on the totum pole and everything rolls downhill to us.

Keep writing letters and get everyone out to vote - we need changes soon ---

cdtx2001
12-23-2009, 6:02 AM
No, but the poster I answered said "buy a cheap lock from Walmart." I believe that Walmart do sell cheap locks, even though they don't pretend to be FSD's

So, it can't be illegal to sell cheap padlocks, so what's illegal? passing them off as approved FSD's when they are not? Who suggested this in this thread?

I buy $5 gun locks from Walmart that are CA approved, says so right on the packaging. Think they are made by DAQ Industries and are the cable type.

dustoff31
12-23-2009, 2:57 PM
From the DOJ BOF web site:



http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/fsdcertlist.php

Roster of Firearm Safety Devices Certified for Sale
Effective January 1, 2002, no firearm may be sold, transferred, or manufactured within California unless that firearm is accompanied by a DOJ-approved firearms safety device (California Penal Code section 12087, et seq).

The safety device requirement does not apply to the following:

Persons who can demonstrate the purchase of a DOJ-approved safety device in the 30 days prior to taking possession of the firearm by presenting the device to the firearms dealer and providing the firearms dealer with a receipt showing the purchase date and model name of the device.

The commerce of any firearm defined as an "antique firearm" pursuant to federal law.

The commerce of any firearm intended to be used by a salaried, full-time peace officer for law enforcement purposes.

Transfers of firearms to persons who demonstrate ownership of a qualifying gun safe.

Ownership may be demonstrated by displaying to the firearms dealer: 1) A receipt indicating purchase of, or an affidavit, signed under penalty of perjury, stating that the purchaser owns a gun safe, and 2) An affidavit, signed under penalty of perjury, stating that the gun safe meets the standards set forth in DOJ regulations.


So as you can see, the requirement to furnish a lock is on the seller, not the buyer. But if they can make you buy or bring a lock, they are off the hook.

You can also look up or print out all the approved safes, locks, or other approved FSDs on this page.

It includes the locks furnished with new guns by the various manufacturers.

bigcalidave
12-23-2009, 3:37 PM
For hand guns you have to have the receipt that shows a purchase of an APPROVED LOCK - no exceptions. I can not buy "used" locks and sell them as they are no longer "approved" due to their condition.-

Why can't the lock be an approved lock and USED ?? In a PPT or regular handgun purchase where an approved lock is in the case, all that is needed is a receipt for that lock as well as the handgun, at the same time.
Good to go!

Chris M
12-23-2009, 3:41 PM
I took librarian's informative post and put it to graphics. Here's a rough draft in case anyone wants to pretty it up and make it official:

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3621/chart1rough.png (big image; too big to post).

Here's the basic text to facilitate copy/paste:

Is the gun you are purchasing a handgun? - Yes. - !Does the firearm you are purchasing come with a California approved lock sold as part of your sale? - Yes, legal. No, proceed. - Do you currently own a California approved gun lock and can supply a receipt showing purchase within 30 days prior to the delivery of your handgun? Yes. Legal, 12088.1(e)(1).

Is the gun you are purchasing a handgun? - No. - Do you own a gun safe? - Yes; bring the make and model of your gun safe and request a safe affidavit when you purchase your firearm. No, proceed to !.

I'm no expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong...

Your flowchart doesn't differentiate between private party transfers and new guns. From what I've read, if you purchase any handgun via PPT - even if it's new, and contains a lock in the original packaging - you need to purchase a lock, or provide a receipt showing that you purchased one in the last thirty days. On the other hand, if you're purchasing a new handgun from a dealer, and that handgun comes packaged with a lock, there is no need to purchase another lock.

If this is the case, I've created the attached flowchart the accounts for this. Please feel free to correct any mistakes. If anyone wants a copy for editing, I've got it in MS Visio Format. E-mail me: chrism2097 at yahoo dot com

[edit]
Modified flow chart to account for dealer-purchased long guns that come packaged with a gun lock.

eltee
12-23-2009, 6:31 PM
All,

Having had 4 audits now where they zeroed in on the lock issue and looking for that receipt, I can say with certainty that it will cost the FFL dearly for not having the little peice of paper. They check dates and model numbers of the locks as written on the front of the DROS and receipt. ...
-

Does the FFL need to photocopy the receipt, or just write down that a receipt was visually verified and the date of (the lock) purchase?

ontargetrange
12-25-2009, 5:54 PM
Does the FFL need to photocopy the receipt, or just write down that a receipt was visually verified and the date of (the lock) purchase?

DOJ says they want the original receipt attached to the back of the first sheet of the DROS with the lock data written in the comments section on the front of the page.

I checked about "used" locks -- they SAY that since the lock is used, there may be something wrong with it as opposed to a new lock from a manufacturer. So the lock must be new period.

cbn620
12-25-2009, 11:04 PM
I'm no expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong...

Your flowchart doesn't differentiate between private party transfers and new guns. From what I've read, if you purchase any handgun via PPT - even if it's new, and contains a lock in the original packaging - you need to purchase a lock, or provide a receipt showing that you purchased one in the last thirty days. On the other hand, if you're purchasing a new handgun from a dealer, and that handgun comes packaged with a lock, there is no need to purchase another lock.

If this is the case, I've created the attached flowchart the accounts for this. Please feel free to correct any mistakes. If anyone wants a copy for editing, I've got it in MS Visio Format. E-mail me: chrism2097 at yahoo dot com

[edit]
Modified flow chart to account for dealer-purchased long guns that come packaged with a gun lock.

I can't confirm or deny. Good thinking though man, gotta say that one definitely slipped me. Your chart looks good.

Chris M
12-26-2009, 10:13 AM
I can't confirm or deny. Good thinking though man, gotta say that one definitely slipped me. Your chart looks good.

If someone can confirm whether or not it's correct, and can help my out by providing the correct PC's, I'll try to make it a bit more comprehensive...unless there is no real interest in this.

Durwin
12-26-2009, 10:40 AM
Good Morning,
I've been ghosting here for a while, until I thought that I could contribute something worthwhile...

I've looked at the previous postings and the flow chart...
I have gun locks that were given away free from a local police department more than 30 days ago. Since they were given away by a PD, I would think that they are "Ca-Legal" locks. These were obtained more than 30 days ago, so I would guess, that if I bought a handgun, I would have to buy yet another lock, even though I already have a lock.
Does that make sense?

Durwin

timdps
12-26-2009, 10:40 AM
So do transfers of long guns over 50 years old between non-licensees also require a lock? From the legal text posted above it would appear to be the case.

Tim



I'm no expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong...

Your flowchart doesn't differentiate between private party transfers and new guns. From what I've read, if you purchase any handgun via PPT - even if it's new, and contains a lock in the original packaging - you need to purchase a lock, or provide a receipt showing that you purchased one in the last thirty days. On the other hand, if you're purchasing a new handgun from a dealer, and that handgun comes packaged with a lock, there is no need to purchase another lock.

If this is the case, I've created the attached flowchart the accounts for this. Please feel free to correct any mistakes. If anyone wants a copy for editing, I've got it in MS Visio Format. E-mail me: chrism2097 at yahoo dot com

[edit]
Modified flow chart to account for dealer-purchased long guns that come packaged with a gun lock.

383green
12-26-2009, 10:54 AM
I have gun locks that were given away free from a local police department more than 30 days ago. Since they were given away by a PD, I would think that they are "Ca-Legal" locks. These were obtained more than 30 days ago, so I would guess, that if I bought a handgun, I would have to buy yet another lock, even though I already have a lock.
Does that make sense?


That's what the law says. As I understand it, the original intent was not that you have one approved lock, but that you get a new lock for each gun you purchase. In other words, they didn't want you to have 15 handguns sitting on the livingroom table, with only one lock for all of them to share. So, they put in that language about either buying a new lock with the gun, or proving that you bought one immediately before buying the gun (and coupled with the one-handgun-per-month law, the 30-day time limit for buying a lock more or less adds up to one lock purchase per gun purchase).

So in that respect, it makes sense. But in other respects, it still doesn't make sense. Just because you purchased a new gun lock, that doesn't mean you'll actually use it. Just because you purchased a $10 lock, that doesn't mean that it's any better than that half-ton safe bolted to the concrete slab in the garage. You could be purchasing your very first handgun, and already have a sack of brand new CA-approved gun locks, but you still need to buy another one for your gun.

It all boils down to this being ineffective feel-good legislation which imposes an unnecessary burden on people exercising their rights.

Librarian
12-26-2009, 11:45 AM
Good Morning,
I've been ghosting here for a while, until I thought that I could contribute something worthwhile...

I've looked at the previous postings and the flow chart...
I have gun locks that were given away free from a local police department more than 30 days ago. Since they were given away by a PD, I would think that they are "Ca-Legal" locks. These were obtained more than 30 days ago, so I would guess, that if I bought a handgun, I would have to buy yet another lock, even though I already have a lock.
Does that make sense?

Durwin

Your interpretation of the situation is correct, but it hardly makes "sense".:)

The 30-day rule is the issue. It's also true that PDs seldom give an acceptable proof-of-purchase.

I believe the PD give-aways are intended to 'back fill' so guns sold before the requirement get a lock anyway.

bodger
12-26-2009, 12:46 PM
What a load of crap.

So I buy the damn lock, take the gun home and put it into my gun safe that they won't accept the affidavit for.

Are they going to enter my home and conduct spot checks to make sure all my firearms are always locked?

What if you show up with a lock and receipt. But the receipt is from a private party, not a retail store, for a lock with no packaging still on it but you tell them it's new, purchased TODAY and here's the receipt?

383green
12-26-2009, 1:00 PM
What if you show up with a lock and receipt. But the receipt is from a private party, not a retail store, for a lock with no packaging still on it but you tell them it's new, purchased TODAY and here's the receipt?


The gun lock law wasn't supposed to make logical sense; it was supposed to be as burdensome as its writers thought that they could get away with, while sounding just sensible enough on the surface to appeal to people who know absolutely nothing about firearms, personal responsibility or technical competence.

ugimports
12-26-2009, 1:26 PM
DOJ says they want the original receipt attached to the back of the first sheet of the DROS with the lock data written in the comments section on the front of the page.

I checked about "used" locks -- they SAY that since the lock is used, there may be something wrong with it as opposed to a new lock from a manufacturer. So the lock must be new period.

This may suck for me, but I've been giving away new Project Childsafe locks for free with any firearm that didn't come with an approved one. I record the information on the DROS, but don't always add the information to the receipt I give the customer. Is this an issue? I can go fix all my past receipts and include the lock information, but haven't up to this point. For handguns I definitely record it on the receipt, but I haven't on all long gun purchases because some people fill out the safe affidavit.

tenpercentfirearms
12-27-2009, 8:10 PM
DOJ says they want the original receipt attached to the back of the first sheet of the DROS with the lock data written in the comments section on the front of the page.

I checked about "used" locks -- they SAY that since the lock is used, there may be something wrong with it as opposed to a new lock from a manufacturer. So the lock must be new period.

This would be FUD. No where does it say anything about used or new locks anywhere in penal code or CCR. NO WHERE!

If the DOJ came into my shop and gave me that line, I would tell them to take it up with my counsel. All guns are provided with locks by my company. Where I buy or obtain my locks from is no business of theirs unless a customer brings in a lock to use for their transaction, in which case I will get a copy of the receipt that shows purchase within 30 days.

Further, on the PPT transaction, if the firearm comes with a lock already, this is absolutely no different than a manufacturer including a lock with the firearm. NONE! Only if the customer blatantly pulled out a lock and said, "I brought this from home," would I make them provide a proof of receipt.

However, I still wouldn't do that as I would have them give me that lock and tell them they are donating it to me. I would then pull out a different model lock from my own inventory and give them that lock for that transaction.

The law is quite clear. Only when the customer provides the lock is a receipt required. If the customer does not provide the lock, then there are no other requirements other than it be an approved FSD.

This may suck for me, but I've been giving away new Project Childsafe locks for free with any firearm that didn't come with an approved one. I record the information on the DROS, but don't always add the information to the receipt I give the customer. Is this an issue? I can go fix all my past receipts and include the lock information, but haven't up to this point. For handguns I definitely record it on the receipt, but I haven't on all long gun purchases because some people fill out the safe affidavit.I also give away Project Childsafe GL710 NSSFs and AB 107 Chinas with my guns. There is nothing wrong with that. On the DROS notes section either put the lock information or "signed affidavit for approved safe or lock box." If it is blank and you have a safe affidavit, go ahead and go back and write in "signed affidavit for approved safe or lock box." You need something to show you are complying with the law.

ugimports
12-27-2009, 8:30 PM
...
I also give away Project Childsafe GL710 NSSFs and AB 107 Chinas with my guns. There is nothing wrong with that. On the DROS notes section either put the lock information or "signed affidavit for approved safe or lock box." If it is blank and you have a safe affidavit, go ahead and go back and write in "signed affidavit for approved safe or lock box." You need something to show you are complying with the law.

Thanks, I'll make sure to write safe affidavit for those that have it.

tenpercentfirearms
12-27-2009, 8:37 PM
The more I think about it, the more this law really is unenforceable. Let's look at the Penal Code.

12088.1. (a) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state, shall include or be accompanied by a firearms safety device that is listed on the Department of Justice's roster of approved firearms safety devices and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on the roster for use with the device.
(b) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state shall be accompanied with warning language or labels as described in Section 12088.3.
(c)(1) All long-gun safes commercially sold or transferred in this state, or manufactured in this state for sale in this state, that do not meet the standards for gun safes adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2 shall be accompanied by the following warning:
"WARNING: This gun safe does not meet the safety standards for gun safes specified in California Penal Code Section 12088.2. It does not satisfy the requirements of Penal Code Section 12088.1, which mandates that all firearms sold in California be accompanied by a firearms safety device or proof of ownership, as required by law, of a gun safe that meets the Section 12088.2 minimum safety standards developed by the California Attorney General."

(2) This warning shall be conspicuously displayed in its entirety on the principal display panel of the gun safe's package, on any descriptive materials that accompany the gun safe, and on a label affixed to the front of the gun safe.
(3) This warning shall be displayed in both English and Spanish in conspicuous and legible type in contrast by typography, layout, or color with other printed matter on the package or descriptive materials in a manner consistent with Part 1500.121 of Title 16 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or successor regulations thereto.
(d) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if both of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the standards set forth in Section 12088.2. Gun safes shall not be required to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards without appearing on the Department of Justice roster.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt or proof of purchase with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.
(e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.

Ok, so logically speaking, all dealers have to comply with (a) unless they want to be exempt from (a) by complying with (e). So if you don't want to provide a lock for a customer, you can get away with not providing one by having a customer bring his own and do all of the paperwork along with it. Note it doesn't say that a person can't bring their own lock in section (a). Section (a) makes no mention of where you can or cannot get the lock from. It just says one must be included or accompany the firearm.

So stay with me here. If a customer brought in their own lock, you could still use that to comply with section (a). A gun lock is still being provided. The only time you do not have to provide a lock is if you want to go through with section (e).

Now could the DOJ argue that "shall include or be accompanied by a [FSD]" prohibits a customer bringing in a gun lock? I don't see how. The firearm included or was accompanied by an FSD. The code states nothing in (a) where that lock should come from. The code only specifies if you are not going to include or accompany a firearm with an FSD, then you must follow (e).

What do you guys think? I would think during an audit the DOJ has nothing to stand on if you simply state an approved FSD was included or accompanied the firearm. Even if the customer brought one in, the firearm still includes or is being accompanied by an approved FSD. Only if you didn't want to have the customer take it home on the day of pick up would you comply with (e) and the huge amount of work that goes with it.

I knew when I was doing my lock trade in program I pretty much had figured out a way to comply with a minimal amount of customer hassle. However reading this, it appears that really if the DOJ attempted to make this an issue, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Which really isn't their fault, the legislators of this state continue to write worthless and unenforceable legislation.

halifax
01-03-2010, 4:12 AM
The more I think about it, the more this law really is unenforceable. Let's look at the Penal Code.



Ok, so logically speaking, all dealers have to comply with (a) unless they want to be exempt from (a) by complying with (e). So if you don't want to provide a lock for a customer, you can get away with not providing one by having a customer bring his own and do all of the paperwork along with it. Note it doesn't say that a person can't bring their own lock in section (a). Section (a) makes no mention of where you can or cannot get the lock from. It just says one must be included or accompany the firearm.

So stay with me here. If a customer brought in their own lock, you could still use that to comply with section (a). A gun lock is still being provided. The only time you do not have to provide a lock is if you want to go through with section (e).

Now could the DOJ argue that "shall include or be accompanied by a [FSD]" prohibits a customer bringing in a gun lock? I don't see how. The firearm included or was accompanied by an FSD. The code states nothing in (a) where that lock should come from. The code only specifies if you are not going to include or accompany a firearm with an FSD, then you must follow (e).

What do you guys think? I would think during an audit the DOJ has nothing to stand on if you simply state an approved FSD was included or accompanied the firearm. Even if the customer brought one in, the firearm still includes or is being accompanied by an approved FSD. Only if you didn't want to have the customer take it home on the day of pick up would you comply with (e) and the huge amount of work that goes with it.

I knew when I was doing my lock trade in program I pretty much had figured out a way to comply with a minimal amount of customer hassle. However reading this, it appears that really if the DOJ attempted to make this an issue, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Which really isn't their fault, the legislators of this state continue to write worthless and unenforceable legislation.

Now my brain hurts but I see your logic. If I, as the dealer, provide the approved FSD at the time of the DROS and duly note it on the DROS, it really doesn't matter where it came from, correct?

Oldbud
01-03-2010, 10:52 AM
.....
........The code states nothing in (a) where that lock should come from. The code only specifies if you are not going to include or accompany a firearm with an FSD, then you must follow (e).

......+1 I agree

In 12088.1. (a)
The sale or transfer, "including private transfers through a dealer" is stated as having to "include or be accompanied by a firearms safety device that is listed on the Department of Justice's roster of approved firearms safety devices"

There is no mention of a lock needing to be purchased from the FFL, just that the gun must include or be accompanied with an approved lock, and is absent on where the lock originally came from, just that it is included or accompanies the gun.

NOW, if there was no approved lock included or accompanying the gun to the dealer for the transfer, then 122088.1 (e) describes how the purchaser,transferee can allow the sale/transfer to proceed;e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.

Librarian's simple flow chart in post #5 would be the correct info.

Unfortunately, it has been SOP for the dealers to charge for a new lock either out of FUD spread by numerous sources or possibly a few to just bolster the bottom line.

ugimports
01-03-2010, 11:11 AM
Now my brain hurts but I see your logic. If I, as the dealer, provide the approved FSD at the time of the DROS and duly note it on the DROS, it really doesn't matter where it came from, correct?

This is kind of what I got out of it.

Oldbud
01-03-2010, 11:14 AM
Now my brain hurts but I see your logic. If I, as the dealer, provide the approved FSD at the time of the DROS and duly note it on the DROS, it really doesn't matter where it came from, correct?I am not a dealer, but is there a selection to note that a FSD is accompanying the firearm? I couldn't find any reference in the pdf manuals except where "comments" can be entered.

Possibly where the dealers have problems showing proof of abiding by the PC is there is no clear way to document the gun had a FSD included, and selling a lock or attach a buyer's supplied receipt to the paperwork does that.

Now if there is place to "duly note" a dealer providing a FSD, then it should be doable to document a FSD was included or accompanied the firearm.

halifax
01-03-2010, 11:17 AM
I am not a dealer, but is there a selection to note that a FSD is accompanying the firearm? I couldn't find any reference in the pdf manuals except where "comments" can be entered.

Possibly where the dealers have problems showing proof of abiding by the PC is there is no clear way to document the gun had a FSD included, and selling a lock or attach a buyer's supplied receipt to the paperwork does that.

Yes, the comments box on the purchaser page is the usual spot to enter the FSD data.