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View Full Version : Amensty for Illegals: Attack on 2nd?


Neo Sharkey
12-20-2009, 9:31 AM
I was thinking about the whole Amnesty for Illegals issue again, and had a few thoughts on it.

So, if it goes through, the Dems get a new block of voters who will pretty much vote Democrat from here on out, and odds are they won't care too much about our 2nd amendment rights.

Now, I don't expect that they'd admit it outright that they want to buy new voters, so maybe we can do something to at least keep them from getting the votes.

What are everyone's thoughts on us starting up a letter campaign not to completely stop Amnesty, but to push them to only grant residence, not Citizenship. After all, they did break the law to arrive...it seems that not granting them voting rights would be a fair trade if they want to stay legally.

Thoughts?

bodger
12-20-2009, 9:39 AM
Well, I'm a pragmatist on this subject because illegal immigrants have caused so much turmoil and problems in my business.

I say if they are here illegally, then they are criminals, and we should deport them immediately. Not spend a dime on prosecuting them, nor giving them amnesty or deciding what they can or cannot do once they have been coddled and allowed to stay, which is in fact, a reward for disregarding the laws of our land in the first place.

And yes, I know the arguments, nobody will pick the lettuce and the economy will collapse. Maybe if we have about 5 million less people on welfare, we can afford to pay the higher wages non-illegals might demand for stoop labor.

I say boot them all out back to where they came from.

nn3453
12-20-2009, 9:49 AM
Oh boy, not this can of worms again. This topic should be in "off topic."

Basically, you are making an argument that if illegals vote, they will vote in Democrats, who are automatically fascist and anti-gun and so we are screwed. I got news for you. This is a "blue" state and will be so for a while, illegals or not. Nothing you or I can do about it.

If you want to discuss illegal immigration, please take it to off topic since topics like these cause heated arguments, name calling, "red" versus "blue" and divisiveness that does NOT help the 2A cause. California has a lot of different types of people, people who vote Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, people who are pro/anti-gay, have different views on illegals. The wise men who are leading the 2A fight are trying to get people to set these differences aside and unite around the common cause: RKBA. It is best not to mix issues.

Lets see how long this topic lasts.

aileron
12-20-2009, 10:19 AM
I say if they are here illegally, then they are criminals, and we should deport them immediately.

No way, they will just cross again.


They should be imprisoned for 5 years, then sent to work for the very laborers who now hire them illegally. The laborers pay the same costs they would to hire them illegally but the money now goes to the state to care for said prisoners.

That will curb illegals crossing the border fast. No incentive to come back or come at all, because when caught its five years of labor with no pay.

HUTCH 7.62
12-20-2009, 10:29 AM
Check out this article I read on the SJ Mercury today

http://www.mercurynews.com/search/ci_14033928?IADID=Search-www.mercurynews.com-www.mercurynews.com

CCWFacts
12-20-2009, 10:43 AM
So, if it goes through, the Dems get a new block of voters who will pretty much vote Democrat from here on out, and odds are they won't care too much about our 2nd amendment rights.

Yes, that is EXACTLY the agenda behind these amnesty ideas: create huge new blocks of life-long Democratic voters. These voters are not of American background and do not understand or care about American values such as freedom and the Constitution.

That is EXACTLY the purpose these amnesty bills.

The Republican party is very unskilled at appealing to immigrants, and in fact is full of people who are eager to express their dislike of immigrants. I personally think that the Republicans should figure out how to do better.

I personally live in a town that is about 40% immigrants, all from one particular country which is extremely religious and conservative, and these immigrants are very conservative people in their views, and they vote Democrat just because the Republicans didn't bother to show up and welcome them.

So yeah, that's what's going on here with these amnesty proposals.

Fortunately, I think the amnesty bills are DOA. They just barely managed to pass the health care abomination, and amnesty bills have even less popular support, and the Ds are going to lose at least a handful of seats in senate next year.

davescz
12-20-2009, 10:47 AM
seems to me most of them illegals are fleeing dictotorships that do NOT reconize the right to bear arms. Maybe we should start some sort of spanish language outreach for new comers?

Many of them are fleeing lands where they never could legally own a gun in their own home. Many of them have suffered government abuses, and may be very receptive of the Rights protected by the second admendment.

One thing is for sure, if the illegals have kids here, the kids are citizens, and in 18 years they can vote, we must do our best to educate everyone here on the purpose and importance of the Right to Bear Arms.



truth is we have a lot of folks coming here, legal and otherwise, most from nations that have trampled on the Right to bear arms. they have no gun culture, except that of guns only wielded by the state, and crimminals.

We should be handing out flyers and offer free gun training to all new citizens, I know political parties set up sign up tables just outside citizenship swearing in cerimonies, how about we all offer a free year in the NRA, and some other informative stuff for each new citizen? After all these new folks will be voting, we want them on board with all of this nations Rights and know their responsibility to protect them Rights when tehy vote. New immigrents tend to vote, lets make sure they are educated in gun issues.

all that be said, the issue of illegals shoudl really not be a topic here. one thing to be learned in this "teachable moment" is that we must educate all that come here. the other subject of illegals being here is best left off topic I think. That is why I switch to the subject of NEW CITIZENS and OUR job to educate them. they are our voting future.

Doug L
12-20-2009, 10:52 AM
...They should be imprisoned for 5 years...

Iimprisonment for 5 years and charge those who hired them illegally for the cost of the imprisonment, followed by immediate deportation (no appeal).

bodger
12-20-2009, 11:18 AM
Iimprisonment for 5 years and charge those who hired them illegally for the cost of the imprisonment, followed by immediate deportation (no appeal).

No way, they will just cross again.


They should be imprisoned for 5 years, then sent to work for the very laborers who now hire them illegally. The laborers pay the same costs they would to hire them illegally but the money now goes to the state to care for said prisoners.

That will curb illegals crossing the border fast. No incentive to come back or come at all, because when caught its five years of labor with no pay.


I agree with both of you.

Slim
12-20-2009, 11:25 AM
I agree, but the point you are missing is the current administration really does not care what we think. They know whats best for us and you and I can just shut up and listen to them.

curtisfong
12-20-2009, 11:34 AM
I agree, but the point you are missing is every administration really does not care what we think. They know whats best for us and you and I can just shut up and listen to them.

Fixed it for you.

GuyW
12-20-2009, 12:04 PM
California has a lot of different types of people, people who vote Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, people who are pro/anti-gay, have different views on illegals. The wise men who are leading the 2A fight are trying to get people to set these differences aside and unite around the common cause: RKBA. It is best not to mix issues.


No, some of them come in here and tell us we "have to" support other causes like gay marriage, etc....

.

Aegis
12-20-2009, 12:05 PM
I doubt the amnesty for illegal aliens goes anywhere. The proposal was extremely unpopular when Bush/McCain tried to pass it during a good economy. With 20% unemployment, trying to pass amnesty for illegal aliens will be almost impossible and a political disaster for the party in support of it.

LiberalGunner
12-20-2009, 12:11 PM
It's so sad that so many of you stereotype mexicans as liberals. As a liberal myself, I'm often fustrated out of my mind with the right wing mindset of many mexicans. They're anti-gay, they're against the right to an abortion, and many of them will buy a gun the first chance they get. Yes, they committed a crime in coming here, but look at their situation back home. Many of you would do the same thing. So now we're logically discussing decriminalizing something many logical people would do.

You know this country will never "kick them all out". It isn't feasible and will never happen. Why don't you try to be a little inclusive and flexible on this. Maybe you'll gain a few supporters instead of isolate a whole race of people.

CCWFacts
12-20-2009, 12:15 PM
seems to me most of them illegals are fleeing dictotorships that do NOT reconize the right to bear arms. Maybe we should start some sort of spanish language outreach for new comers?

We absolutely should be doing that. Unfortunately that is going to take some major attitude adjustment within the Republican party and conservatives in general here. We need to get all behind Spanish-language communications and welcoming new legal immigrants. I personally have seen my town, which is full of extremely conservative immigrants, go 100% Democratic because the Republicans completely ignored them. And my town is full of people who fled for their lives from a terribly repressive regime, and who could easily be shown the importance of limited government powers and the RKBA, but the Republican party made no effort to even show up.

One thing is for sure, if the illegals have kids here, the kids are citizens, and in 18 years they can vote, we must do our best to educate everyone here on the purpose and importance of the Right to Bear Arms.

That's right, it's a fact, but instead of accepting that as a fact, many conservatives bury their head in the sand and wish that birth didn't convey citizenship and that these children would somehow not ever grow up to vote here. Sorry, we need to face reality and deal with it!
We should be handing out flyers and offer free gun training to all new citizens, I know political parties set up sign up tables just outside citizenship swearing in cerimonies, how about we all offer a free year in the NRA, and some other informative stuff for each new citizen?

That's actually a good idea.

one thing to be learned in this "teachable moment" is that we must educate all that come here. the other subject of illegals being here is best left off topic I think. That is why I switch to the subject of NEW CITIZENS and OUR job to educate them. they are our voting future.

I agree with your attitude on that.

I doubt the amnesty for illegal aliens goes anywhere. The proposal was extremely unpopular when Bush/McCain tried to pass it during a good economy. With 20% unemployment, trying to pass amnesty for illegal aliens will be almost impossible and a political disaster for the party in support of it.

That's true. It's DOA. But even without amnesty, their children are citizens and will be voters soon enough... we have to deal with that.

huggybear
12-20-2009, 12:16 PM
It's so sad that so many of you stereotype mexicans as liberals. As a liberal myself, I'm often fustrated out of my mind with the right wing mindset of many mexicans. They're anti-gay, they're against the right to an abortion, and many of them will buy a gun the first chance they get. Yes, they committed a crime in coming here, but look at their situation back home. Many of you would do the same thing. So now we're logically discussing decriminalizing something many logical people would do.

You know this country will never "kick them all out". It isn't feasible and will never happen. Why don't you try to be a little inclusive and flexible on this. Maybe you'll gain a few supporters instead of isolate a whole race of people.

+1+

huggybear
12-20-2009, 12:23 PM
its so sad that many of you people forget where u guys come from and how u guys got here. We dont come here to be on welfare, we come here to work, and like liberalgunner said, what would u guys do if u guys werent as lucky to be born in a great country like the U.S. and instead were born in guatemala, mexico, or el salvador. I know that them coming here is illegal but i think to myself, what would i have done in that position.

AJAX22
12-20-2009, 12:33 PM
its so sad that many of you people forget where u guys come from and how u guys got here. We dont come here to be on welfare, we come here to work, and like liberalgunner said, what would u guys do if u guys werent as lucky to be born in a great country like the U.S. and instead were born in guatemala, mexico, or el salvador. I know that them coming here is illegal but i think to myself, what would i have done in that position.

My family was in that position (although we were in Russia during the revolution, Poland during the Nazi occupation, and a few other choice locations in Europe during some of the more interesting times.

We emigrated legally.

The ones who were unable to emigrate, were either jailed or shot in the back of the head and left in unmarked graves, although a few went into hiding.

Coming into the USA on false/illegal pretenses was not considered to be an option. They wanted to be REAL Americans not unwanted/unwelcome criminals.

CCWFacts
12-20-2009, 1:00 PM
its so sad that many of you people forget where u guys come from and how u guys got here. We dont come here to be on welfare, we come here to work, and like liberalgunner said, what would u guys do if u guys werent as lucky to be born in a great country like the U.S. and instead were born in guatemala, mexico, or el salvador. I know that them coming here is illegal but i think to myself, what would i have done in that position.

I agree. 99% of the illegal immigrants who are here, are here to work. I have a nuanced view of the whole subject. I only exist because of a few acts of illegal immigration a few decades ago. None of these acts involved the US, but if my ancestors hadn't done some fast illegal immigrating, they would have died with all their relatives who stayed put. I've also known some IIs here, some of them with American university degrees from good schools here, but who couldn't get proper visa status. It's hard for me to have a rigid view on the subject. Yes they are criminals, but so were my ancestors who fled Europe to save their lives. Their relatives who didn't flee were also criminals, sentenced to death without judicial process of any kind, so I guess we were all criminals by reason of genetics and therefore it's hard for me to take a view that being a criminal is always wrong in every circumstance.

It's so sad that so many of you stereotype mexicans as liberals. As a liberal myself, I'm often fustrated out of my mind with the right wing mindset of many mexicans. They're anti-gay, they're against the right to an abortion, and many of them will buy a gun the first chance they get.

Yeah, but somehow they can get recruited by the Democratic party anyway.

Believe me, my town is absolutely full of the most conservative right-wing conservative religious immigrants you could ever dream up. And they're all Democrats, not because they have anything in common with the Democratic party, but because the Republican party didn't bother to even attempt to reach them.

MikeinnLA
12-20-2009, 1:13 PM
On the one hand, I'm down with the "they're all criminals, send them back" faction.

On the other hand, I would risk ANYTHING to provide a safe environment for my family. A place where they could be healthy and well-fed and where my kids could look forward to having a good life. I think that's just human nature.

Illegal immigration is NOT the immigrant's fault. They are merely responding rationally to the "magnet" of benefits that we offer them. If they DIDN'T come here, I would think they are STUPID.

If you want to stop illegal immigration, we must stop the benefits, pure & simple.

The good news is, I imagine the thousands of illegal alien gang members are probably Pro-RKBA.

Mike

lumwilliam
12-20-2009, 1:18 PM
Is it true that Liberalgun got banned for comments about mexicans in this thread? I am of the belief that the illegals shouls get to the back of the line like those trying to immigrate legally. But I understand and appreciate why those across the border would want so desperately to come here.

Regulus
12-20-2009, 1:21 PM
American's take pride in learning from their mistakes and, in general, not repeating them. If you ignore history, it is because you choose to ignore what has previously failed, for some purpose other than success. The amnesty bill that passed in 1986, during President Reagan's administration, should show us that such actions are not solutions. In fact, the opposite could be stated, evidenced by our current dilemma.

By granting illegal residents amnesty, not only are we rewarding all who have lied and cheated to get here illegally, but we are punishing those who have taken the time and effort to gain residence and/or citizenship legally. These people (and I know several in the process) would certainly NOT be considered for this "program". They need not be pardoned because they have committed no crime.

As LiberalGunner stated, If I was a citizen of another country and saw a better opportunity (better life for myself and my family) by crossing a border illegally, I absolutely would. I would also expect to be kicked out and sent back where I came from, forfeiting any opportunity to become a citizen of that country in the future.

ETA: I do not believe the Democrats would pursue amnesty so they could attack the 2A as much as I believe they would pursue it to save their careers from that 25% approval rating for what they've already done.

bigcalidave
12-20-2009, 1:32 PM
Is it true that Liberalgun got banned for comments about mexicans in this thread? I am of the belief that the illegals shouls get to the back of the line like those trying to immigrate legally. But I understand and appreciate why those across the border would want so desperately to come here.

Liberal gunner WAS a troll, and posted exclusively in an inflammatory manner. They weren't here to contribute to a healthy discussion in any way...

I'm not a mod, but this was pretty damn obvious.

Neo Sharkey
12-20-2009, 1:41 PM
I'm just hoping that there is something we can do to derail their plan to get more voters.

Someone had a great point: we should be trying to educate the immigrants and their kids about the 2nd amendment and how it protects them too. Most of my shooting friends make it a point to teach more people to shoot whenever they get a chance; if we could extend that to immigrants, we might be on to something. I can translate into Spanish if anyone has a good candidate for a pamphlet we can distribute via PDF so we can print out and distribute wherever we get a chance.

Rem222
12-20-2009, 1:46 PM
its so sad that many of you people forget where u guys come from and how u guys got here. We dont come here to be on welfare, we come here to work, and like liberalgunner said, what would u guys do if u guys werent as lucky to be born in a great country like the U.S. and instead were born in guatemala, mexico, or el salvador. I know that them coming here is illegal but i think to myself, what would i have done in that position.

The problem is there are people waiting in line to come to this country legally. Why should people who have broke our immigration laws be rewarded with a head of the line pass? Go home, get in the back of the line...

MR.R
12-20-2009, 1:47 PM
No way, they will just cross again.


They should be imprisoned for 5 years, then sent to work for the very laborers who now hire them illegally. The laborers pay the same costs they would to hire them illegally but the money now goes to the state to care for said prisoners.

That will curb illegals crossing the border fast. No incentive to come back or come at all, because when caught its five years of labor with no pay.

you have my vote :D

Rob454
12-20-2009, 1:48 PM
if you wanna stop illegal immigration you go after the peopel who hire them IN FORCE. Im redoing my house. The whole place. EVery contractor I had had american english speaking people.
ALL except for one. When my wife told me about it I took the owner aside and told him to get those people off my job site. Did the job take longer. yes it did. did he do a better or worse job. No because I made him fix everything. Other than that he did a great job. he only hired the illegals because his two guys quit to go work in vegas. other than that I specifically ask for english speaking workers. If its my job and im paying the money I refuse to talk in sign language or pidgin to make myself understood. You dont like my rules feel free to go back home and make your own rules
Did i pay more than if I were to get a bunch of illegals here to work yeah i did probably anywhere from 25-40% more but I got a better job and if there is a problem I have someone to call and to come fix it.
If the goverment went after these crooked contractors and businesses and started really soaking the fines to them they would hire american citizens. and the BS if americans wont do these jobs is just that BS. Americans wont do those jobs for the s**t pay that the illegals are doing it for. as for the hysteria of all of the sudden our prices will go up yeah ok they will go up and the market will adjust.
Illegals are taking more out of the system than they are putting in it. its not only the taxes its the medical services and the school system drain. i dont care if you come here from another country ( hell I came here from another country) but do it legally. When someone simply demands or gets amnesty just because they came here pissing in the face of america its laws and citizens and demanding rights well that should be a slap in the face to the citizens here. but too many people seem not to care or worry about it because they think it doesnt affect them. it affects everyone who pays taxes and is a citizen.

aileron
12-20-2009, 2:10 PM
It's so sad that so many of you stereotype mexicans as liberals.

I myself had not said this, nor do I bite on the liberal vs. conservative mantra's. Both are equally repulsive to me.


... Yes, they committed a crime in coming here, but look at their situation back home. Many of you would do the same thing. So now we're logically discussing decriminalizing something many logical people would do.

Absolutely we would do the same. Not even trying to argue that, in fact I applaud them for their bravery. Now if they want to be here, to be an American do it like everyone else that has to pay to be here. Plus do we really want the least educated to come to this country because of the convenience of a border? Wouldn't we want the best and the brightest?

What I suggested fixes the desire to be here, the monetary reasons for showing up illegally. They will not come back because it becomes too costly.

The rest can get Temporary H2B visas if they wish to work during our harvest seasons. This limits any country around the world to only 7 percent of the pool. Isn't fairness to a wider swath of impoverished country's a more ethical stance?


You know this country will never "kick them all out". It isn't feasible and will never happen. Why don't you try to be a little inclusive and flexible on this. Maybe you'll gain a few supporters instead of isolate a whole race of people.

Even those who are here already are being hurt by more illegals coming here. It is sad and ironic to hear illegal workers that became citizens losing their jobs to lower wage illegals. Even more ironic and even worst is those that lose their jobs, (no benefits, no monetary support, no legal representation, no nothing,) because they now cost too much because other illegals will work for even less. At some point the boat is just too darn full to keep letting more and more people overflow our boarders in an illegal underground trade ring vying for fewer and fewer jobs. We are reaching a breaking point.

We are not so rich as to just absorb every problem on the planet, especially other peoples problems. Our Medical industry is hemorrhaging badly because of illegal immigration, especially Neo-Natal Care. No one talks about it, but its a big problem, and you and I are paying for it. Its one of the reason why hospitals in this state keep going out of business.

MindBuilder
12-20-2009, 3:00 PM
Illegal immigrants aren't criminals for crossing illegally, because our government has invited them in. The borders and laws are set up to make illegally crossing the border just hard enough to cut down on the number of lazy or stupid immigrants. So I don't condemn the illegal immigrants for their crime.

But giving more immigrants the vote is very dangerous for our country. More amnesties will lead to more immigrant voters demanding even more amnesties, in a reinforcing feedback loop, until the borders are thrown wide open. I don't think our culture or economy would survive wide open borders. Unfortunately I'm afraid we may have already passed the tipping point, as many in both parties are promoting an amnesty. If the democrats can solidify their dominance by bringing in new voters then our Second Amendment rights would also be in grave danger. Remember, now that our Second Amendment rights have been recognized, the main strategy of the banners will be to increase the cost and inconvenience of gun ownership and hunting with large taxes and lengthy training requirements, until there are too few gun owners to vote for gun rights. A democratically dominated government could bring that on much quicker.

RedStripes
12-20-2009, 3:26 PM
I hate illegal immigrants of all races very much. They and their anchor babies (in my opinion should not be citizens) deserve none of our tax money. As a resident of Los Angeles it is much too like Mexico for my tastes. I will be leaving even though I am born and raised here for the last 19 years. I want to move somewhere that recognizes my rights as a tax paying American citizen more than the illegals and welfare leaches.

note: The LAPD have a special order in place not to deal with illegals. They fully support and protect them. No respect for the LAPD once I found that out combined with only issuing CCW to rich/famous people. I love California but if it does not change politically I am starting my family elsewhere so my kids do not grow up in this nanny state.

Roadrunner
12-20-2009, 3:26 PM
The way to stop illegal aliens is to take everything they got while they are here illegally and send them back to where they came from. That means houses, cars and anything that gives them incentive to come back. If your asking why, it's because everything they acquired here helped propagate their crime of being here illegally. That's the first offense. If they do it again, take it all again and then throw them in prison for a certain amount of time and then send them back to where they came from after they have served their sentence. Now some will call it cruel and unusual, but I call it standing up for those who stood in line and waited their turn, and did all of the right things. Those LAW ABIDING immigrants are who we want here, not those who violate our laws before they become citizens.

RedStripes
12-20-2009, 3:29 PM
Illegal immigrants aren't criminals for crossing illegally, because our government has invited them in.

Are you are you really that dumb? They are ILLEGAL. Kick them all out and stop more from coming. Anyone who will do that has my vote. It is not Constitutional to have an unsecured border and to give these people any money or services funded by the taxpayer. HIGHLY illegal whether politicians admit it or not.

FastFinger
12-20-2009, 3:54 PM
Check out this article I read on the SJ Mercury today

http://www.mercurynews.com/search/ci_14033928?IADID=Search-www.mercurynews.com-www.mercurynews.com


Is that the best arguments they can offer?

"1. There is never a good time for Congress to discuss legalizing the undocumented. "

Because the citizens don't want it to happen, just as the polls clearly indicate that the majority don't want this health care reform they're cramming down our throats. But of course the writer, like the Dems in power, know better and want to force amnesty on us.

"2. The whole "illegal immigrants take jobs from Americans" argument is bogus. "

No it's not, what's bogus is the claim that they're only taking jobs American's won't do. Fact is they may be jobs that some American don't WANT to do, maybe it's time some Americans stop receiving welfare and instead be given a ticket to the central valley and be handed some baskets to pick strawberries with. We have 10% unemployment - somebody will do those jobs. Or maybe it's time we revisit prisoner work crews. Or perhaps we let the market take care of the wages, if American don't work for those wages, if the jobs are truly nneded the wages will rise, and the benefactors of that labor will pay for it - as it should be.

"3. ...make undocumented immigrants legal and take away the incentive for unscrupulous employers to hire them because they can pay them less than U.S. workers. "

Or, enforce the laws and vigorously punish employers who break the law.

vantec08
12-20-2009, 4:02 PM
The romantic and long-held notion of "reconquista", the reconquering of california, is alive and well with most mexican citizens. They are doing it with pure breeding power - - - voting numbers.

GuyW
12-20-2009, 4:06 PM
I know that them coming here is illegal but i think to myself, what would i have done in that position.

The Founding Fathers fought....these guys run....


.

RedStripes
12-20-2009, 4:15 PM
The Founding Fathers fought....these guys run....


.

Damn right! And they are coming here and spiting in the face of what they fought for. Stepping on our Constitution and allowing these people to come harm our country. If they had balls they would fix their own situation instead of coming here and making our country a worse place to live. Pussies. Live free or die not run like a girly man instead of standing your ground.

gregr266
12-20-2009, 4:28 PM
Damn right! And they are coming here and spiting in the face of what they fought for. Stepping on our Constitution and allowing these people to come harm our country. If they had balls they would fix their own situation instead of coming here and making our country a worse place to live. Pussies. Live free or die not run like a girly man instead of standing your ground.

Absolutley....They want to come here and take, take, and take.... They say they want to become americans, but when was the last time anyone of them actually assimutlated into the American culture...One of the last studies showed that if given amensty they would still consider themselves loyal to Mexico and not to the United States. Of course this is only relevant to the Illegals from Mexico but you get the message. I cant stand to believe that the Dems are basically selling out the American people for some anchor baby votes.....Deport them all. Let the kids have back there jobs mowing the lawns and working at the fast food joints.

wildhawker
12-20-2009, 4:44 PM
I'm a bit surprised to see that this remains in 2A.

lumwilliam
12-20-2009, 5:10 PM
I myself had not said this, nor do I bite on the liberal vs. conservative mantra's. Both are equally repulsive to me.


If you don't bite on liberal or conservative, then what the heck is left? I'm a big Ron Paul supporter, mainly because I see him within the republican party, trying to change it.

I just don't think we'll get anywhere sitting on our haunches, saying "both parties are screwed". Because since we're in a two party system, the logical conclusion would be that the country is screwed too.

I'll support my conservative candidates with my relatively small contributions, and I'll beat on liberals all day long. Sure, it's not perfect, but that's the only way, short of taking up arms, that we have to move the system in a positive direction.

lumwilliam
12-20-2009, 5:14 PM
The problem is there are people waiting in line to come to this country legally. Why should people who have broke our immigration laws be rewarded with a head of the line pass? Go home, get in the back of the line...

I live right on the Cal/Mexico border. I see some of these illegals who don't have 2 cents to their names...lived in a cardboard box while on the other side - no education, no english. They couldn't fill out a visa application to save their lives. But....they're tired of the gun battles in their streets, the drug runners ruling their towns, their wives giving birth to babies in the back yard and dying of minor diseases. Some of the good ones just want a little opportunity in the land of opportunity. Sure, it isn't our problem, but to say that we reasonably believe that they would ever be able to stand in line with the Mexicans from more educated and affluent families to pay fees and fill out paper work isn't practical.

Illegals are illegal - I don't want to change that, but we need to look at this as a practical matter too.

VW*Mike
12-20-2009, 5:48 PM
You have to plug the leak in the boat BEFORE you start throwing the water overboard.

vantec08
12-20-2009, 6:01 PM
you want "practical" lum? ok, here's "practical": take border enforcement SERIOUSLY.

a1c
12-20-2009, 6:45 PM
Wrong forum. I can't possibly see how illegal immigration can be linked to the Second Amendment. I'm tired of opportunists using the 2A as a pretext to ***** about just about anything, even when it's not related. Take it to the off-topic forum.

davescz
12-21-2009, 8:48 AM
I'm just hoping that there is something we can do to derail their plan to get more voters.

Someone had a great point: we should be trying to educate the immigrants and their kids about the 2nd amendment and how it protects them too. Most of my shooting friends make it a point to teach more people to shoot whenever they get a chance; if we could extend that to immigrants, we might be on to something. I can translate into Spanish if anyone has a good candidate for a pamphlet we can distribute via PDF so we can print out and distribute wherever we get a chance.

lets start a fund to give each new citizen that is sworn in a one year NRA membership and First Freedom magazine. I'd be wiling to donate a couple subscriptions.

How can Cal Guns organize such an event???

we set up alittle booth outside a swearing in, and distribute liturature and sign up folks for one year in the NRA The political partys do this, we shoudl too. Who can help make this happen???

I bet we might even garner some discounts from the NRA to help with this.

stormy_clothing
12-21-2009, 10:11 AM
You guys are funny, republicans want low wage workers and dems want votes - neither party wants them gone and doing anything solid to make this happen will cause both parties problems.

Kick them all out, defend the borders and fine businesses that employ them A

And repeal the tax breaks for companies that hire in foreign countries B

AJAX22
12-21-2009, 10:17 AM
lets start a fund to give each new citizen that is sworn in a one year NRA membership and First Freedom magazine. I'd be wiling to donate a couple subscriptions.

How can Cal Guns organize such an event???

we set up alittle booth outside a swearing in, and distribute liturature and sign up folks for one year in the NRA The political partys do this, we shoudl too. Who can help make this happen???

I bet we might even garner some discounts from the NRA to help with this.

Thats a very interesting idea actually....

If we could coordinate with the NRA to help fund/discount it... it would be a compleatly untapped voting pool which we could access.

HUTCH 7.62
12-21-2009, 10:39 AM
Canada keeps takes there border serously why don't we??

davescz
12-21-2009, 3:28 PM
Thats a very interesting idea actually....

If we could coordinate with the NRA to help fund/discount it... it would be a compleatly untapped voting pool which we could access.

Ok so who is in charge here with this type of community outreach??? I can offer some time a some memberships dues to new citizens. I can man a booth .

how to proceed????

Super Spy
12-21-2009, 3:42 PM
I would love to see welfare recipients out picking lettuce, and they get no more than minimum wage no matter how many illegitimate kids they have.

Other than that I think you trying to fight a hopeless battle. No matter how many people you deport, more will show up. If they are going to work here, they need to pay taxes here.

I think citizenship should be earned. I think you should have working knowledge of English. I think you should have a job and pay taxes for a few years to even qualify. Making citizenship a privilege instead of a basic right might change people views on what it means to be a citizen. Getting residency should be easy. If you work and pay taxes you should get the same rewards as everyone else. The thought of publishing voter information pamphlets in multiple languages bothers me. Learn English first. Learn about the country and it's history. Show that you are going to be a productive member of society and intend on sticking around for a while.

Mitch
12-21-2009, 4:25 PM
I think citizenship should be earned.

What, aside from surviving their own birth, have most of the participants in this thread done to earn their US citizenship?

LAK Supply
12-21-2009, 5:15 PM
It's about sooo much more than the 2a. Regardless of the "all cultures are equal" BS we're fed in some places, Mexico is a third world country where the ruling class has rights everybody else only dreams about. You don't question authority of any type... You're likely to get thrown in prison or killed. You revere the ordained leaders and you don't cross the cartels that control the country... Likely to get your head hacked off and put on a fencepost. Even if you hate them it's bad for your health to speak out. You TAKE WHATEVER YOUR RULERS ARE GRACIOUS ENOUGH TO GIVE YOU. Sounds suspiciously like a new class of voters some politicians (socialists) would love to have. I give you (the have nots) free stuff financed by others (the haves) with no cost to you (removal of freedoms you're not used to anyway) and you vote for me.

Dr. Peter Venkman
12-21-2009, 5:18 PM
The migrant workers in the fields being paid **** wages, who cannot speak a word of English, and trying to support their families are more American than the morbidly obese who were born here and now are pushing for their healthcare to be subsidized.

Dwight K. Schrute
12-21-2009, 9:00 PM
If the majority of Americans are against healthcare "reform," and they're still passing it, are against amnesty, and they're still pushing it, what are the odds that they enact another type of firearms ban before they're thrown out in 2010. I think knowing that they're going out, is going to make them bolder.

lumwilliam
12-21-2009, 11:46 PM
I think if we're going to do the amnesty thing, we should give amnesty for everything. What about all the other poor criminals out there "living in the shadows", and "taking jobs no one else is willing to do". Come on, there are a bunch of wanted rapists, murders and pedophiles out there living low.

stagman
12-22-2009, 7:16 AM
:popcorn:

6172crew
12-22-2009, 7:24 AM
This thread is just about done. This is the 2nd Amendment forum, get back on topic.

shark92651
12-22-2009, 7:31 AM
It's so sad that so many of you stereotype mexicans as liberals. As a liberal myself, I'm often fustrated out of my mind with the right wing mindset of many mexicans. They're anti-gay, they're against the right to an abortion, and many of them will buy a gun the first chance they get. Yes, they committed a crime in coming here, but look at their situation back home. Many of you would do the same thing. So now we're logically discussing decriminalizing something many logical people would do.

You know this country will never "kick them all out". It isn't feasible and will never happen. Why don't you try to be a little inclusive and flexible on this. Maybe you'll gain a few supporters instead of isolate a whole race of people.

My wife spent 11 years, spent $10,000+ and still was waiting for her green card. She basically got sent to the back of the line after 9/11. She got a fast-track to the green card when we got married. Why should people that broke the law to get into our country get a free pass? Perhaps they should stay home and work hard to make their own country better. If we even hint at another amnesty they will pour over the border in anticipation of getting amnesty. And what prevents the illegal immigration from continuing, until another decade down the road we amnesty another 20-30 million?

Granting amnesty without tackling the root causes of all the illegal immigration does not solve the problem, it is just pretending that the problem went away.

HUTCH 7.62
12-22-2009, 8:01 AM
We should not allow amnesty on the mere fact that our country is overpopulating itself. we should only allow the best of the best to immigrate here.