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View Full Version : New twist on the non-listed AR lowers...


Stanze
12-01-2005, 9:08 AM
If you can get a DOJ letter acknowleding that the non-listed lower is technically CA legal provided you don't violate SB-23. And, a CA-FFL to transer it to you w/ said letter.

I wonder if building it with detachable mag fully functional would be alright provided it didn't have a flash hider, collaspable stock, pistol grip, forward 'tact' grip?

I.E. THIS:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6684/atf20gripcutoutrgbweb2018yp.jpg
(except with a fixed stock)

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see any holes in this other than the royal pain it would take to get the DOJ to send you a letter.

Thoughts?

saki302
12-01-2005, 9:32 AM
I'd like to see it approved with NO pistol grip at all first (remove it, or saw it off at an angle). That would be a first step in the right direction. That grip is still too 'iffy' for a first test- heck, I could grip it in a way tht puts my hand web below the trigger top if I wanted to.

Dave

bwiese
12-01-2005, 9:35 AM
I'm leery of this. I'll have to check the definition of pistol grip...

Right now, I believe we folks looking into this are gonna keep our unlisted lowers in one of these forms:
bare lower receiver - no mag, no pistol grip;

rifle/receiver with fixed 10rd mag AND pistol grip;



The goal is less a usable lower than possibility of declaration as AR series member; you can always get a FAB10.

Stanze
12-01-2005, 9:45 AM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/pistolgrip.htm

I just want to do what's legal.

EDIT: That SKS in the link is not a detachable mag, the wording is confusing to CA legal SKS owners.:rolleyes:

C.G.
12-01-2005, 9:50 AM
I'm leery of this. I'll have to check the definition of pistol grip...

Right now, I believe we folks looking into this are gonna keep our unlisted lowers in one of these forms:

bare lower receiver - no mag, no pistol grip;
rifle/receiver with fixed 10rd mag AND pistol grip;
The goal is less a usable lower than possibility of declaration as AR series member; you can always get a FAB10.

Bill, correct me if I am wrong, but I re-call a thread from long ago where this particular modification was declared a thumbhole grip by the DOJ anyway. If I could only remember where I read that.

BTW, this is like shooting a FAL or M96 without a pistol grip; the satisfaction of being able to change mags goes out the window quick, it is just too damn uncomfortable, at least for me.

bu-bye
12-01-2005, 10:58 AM
Bill, correct me if I am wrong, but I re-call a thread from long ago where this particular modification was declared a thumbhole grip by the DOJ anyway. If I could only remember where I read that.

BTW, this is like shooting a FAL or M96 without a pistol grip; the satisfaction of being able to change mags goes out the window quick, it is just too damn uncomfortable, at least for me.

Yes I remember the thread aswell but don't remember where I read it.

Turning a rifle into a ergonomic nightmare just does not sit well with me. I'd rather have a Su-16 than an AR that feels like a potato gun. A fab-10/Vulcan lower with an M4 upper just does not make any sense to me. Whats the point of having a tac rifle if its only good for 10 rounds. A target/sniper upper makes more sense.

I think we are all looking at the new Baretta as the next Cali "AW". Is someone willing to contact them about production dates and barrel length? :D

shopkeep
12-01-2005, 11:17 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the thumb has to go over the buttstock for it to be consider legal in the PRK. Hence you'd have to come up with some type of custom buttstock for this to really work with a detachable magazine. I'm going to have to agree that the Beretta RX4 is going to be the next big thing in Cali.

bwiese
12-01-2005, 11:38 AM
...the proposed definition for "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means "a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."

Yep, this 'hook' grip on the AR would not be legal under this DOJ definition.

Yep, I'm waiting for a Beretta RX4 as well ;) They should be showing it at the SHOT Show.

Turbinator
12-01-2005, 11:45 AM
Anyone figure out why this guy's selector in the picture is twisted too far beyond the detent stop?

Turby

double_action
12-01-2005, 11:52 AM
Anyone figure out why this guy's selector in the picture is twisted too far beyond the detent stop?

Turby


'cause this thumb is pushing against it???

Stanze
12-01-2005, 12:20 PM
Yep, this 'hook' grip on the AR would not be legal under this DOJ definition.

Yep, I'm waiting for a Beretta RX4 as well ;) They should be showing it at the SHOT Show.

*sigh*, got room for one more on the Beretta RX4 bandwagon Bill?:)

just4fun63
12-01-2005, 1:22 PM
This one slipped by me what is a R4X?:confused:

82a1
12-01-2005, 1:33 PM
This one slipped by me what is a R4X?:confused:

A new Mazda.:Dj/k The RX4 is a new rifle from Beretta that will hopefully make it's way into the PRK.

artherd
12-01-2005, 1:36 PM
I wouldn't sink this yet. ATF has approved it (but has a different PG definition.)

Sending an Example into the DOJ with a reciever is the only way to know for sure. DO SO FROM BOTH A RETURN ADDRESS ***AND POSTMARK*** OUTSIDE THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA!!! Extremely borderline, HOWEVER...

I do know of one other case in which an attorney was able to refit a similar grip to a Barrett M82A1 with SUCCESS in an approved exampliar to the DOJ.

The M82 uses AR grips.

Turbinator
12-01-2005, 3:24 PM
Ben,

I noticed that you have mis-spelled Alison's name in your sig file -

"TO: Alison Merilees"

It should be "Alison Merrilees" :)

Just FYI!

Turby

capitol
12-01-2005, 5:28 PM
Ben,

I noticed that you have mis-spelled Alison's name in your sig file -

"TO: Alison Merilees"

It should be "Alison Merrilees" :)

Just FYI!

Turby

NOW YOU TELL ME! :eek:

I hope that isn't how she intends on sorting out her current mail :D

bwiese
12-01-2005, 6:25 PM
OK, good to know.

My letter has been corrected (it had it spelled each way!):

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=179653

artherd
12-01-2005, 7:45 PM
Ben,
It should be "Alison Merrilees" :)

D'oh! I checked it about 3 times and still managed to botch this :P Corrected in all my sigs now, thanks for the heads up!