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ugimports
12-18-2009, 9:47 AM
Below is the quote from my customer. This initially sounds ok, except when am I required to log in the shipment to my bound book? Am I obligated to do it right after I open the box? Or can I let the customer touch it, fully assemble it on their own, and then log it in as a Single Shot Pistol? I know if I log it in before hand as a receiver then it would get DROSd as a long gun which we do not want. Am I ok having the customer fully assemble the firearm at my location after I receive the firearm, but before I log it in? Or is this a no-no? I've already sent a message back to my customer asking if they could just ship their upper to the sender so it comes to me fully assembled, but I haven't heard back yet.


I read about your fairly new FFL service in the Fremont area. Welcome! It's always good to have new options. I am working on jumping through the necessary hoops to get an AR pistol. My question is this, I plan to purchase a completely assembled AR pistol lower receiver from an out of state vendor (assembled meaning receiver, LPK, bullet button, pistol grip, buffer assembly, and fixed bobsled 0 round mag). Can I have this shipped to you, then I show up with a completely assembled pistol upper assembly, put the two halves together, insert two pins, and there we have a complete single shot AR pistol. Then we complete the DROS and I leave to wait my 10 days.

freakshow10mm
12-18-2009, 10:09 AM
Act of manufacturing whether he does it or you do it. If it's done before 4473, it's manufacturing. An 07 FFL will have to do this for it to be legal.

Your options are have an out of state 07 FFL build it or you build it as you are an 07 FFL (which will also trigger ITAR).

Don't play with fire.

aplinker
12-18-2009, 12:09 PM
Act of manufacturing whether he does it or you do it. If it's done before 4473, it's manufacturing. An 07 FFL will have to do this for it to be legal.

Your options are have an out of state 07 FFL build it or you build it as you are an 07 FFL (which will also trigger ITAR).

Don't play with fire.

Follow the above advice.

This has caused problems for other CA FFLs.

ugimports
12-18-2009, 12:16 PM
Thanks, I've let the customer know that it needs to be fully assembled prior to shipment to me.

tenpercentfirearms
12-18-2009, 6:58 PM
Thanks, I've let the customer know that it needs to be fully assembled prior to shipment to me.

That is the only way I would do it. Just the idea of letting a customer mess with the firearm before I log it in sounds wrong. If it doesn't come ready to go, then it shouldn't come at all.

lorax3
12-18-2009, 7:02 PM
Act of manufacturing whether he does it or you do it. If it's done before 4473, it's manufacturing. An 07 FFL will have to do this for it to be legal.

Your options are have an out of state 07 FFL build it or you build it as you are an 07 FFL (which will also trigger ITAR).

Don't play with fire.

What constitues manufacturing according to the ATF?

Changing of weapon types? i.e other to pistol?

1. A rifle that comes in with a 20" barrel and the customer brings in a 16" they want to buy it with instead. The shop agrees to swap the barrels and sell the 20" as a part to someone else. Comes in as a rifle, leaves as a rifle. Manufacturing?

2. A complete AR comes in, one of the shop employee's wants the upper. The shop decides to sell the upper to the employee and offer the complete lower to the masses. Comes in as a rifle, leaves as a rifle, or maybe an other.

djbooya
12-18-2009, 11:25 PM
What constitues manufacturing according to the ATF?

Changing of weapon types? i.e other to pistol?

1. A rifle that comes in with a 20" barrel and the customer brings in a 16" they want to buy it with instead. The shop agrees to swap the barrels and sell the 16" as a part to someone else. Comes in as a rifle, leaves as a rifle. Manufacturing?

2. A complete AR comes in, one of the shop employee's wants the upper. The shop decides to sell the upper to the employee and offer the complete lower to the masses. Comes in as a rifle, leaves as a rifle, or maybe an other.

Here's my understanding from what I've learned so far:

1. Barrels are drop in parts, not manufacturing. It gets logged in as a rifle and out as a rifle. As an aside, I would think it just as easy for the the customer to buy it with the 20" and swap the barrel out after DROS. That would avoid any ambiguity in my opinion.

2. Not sure, since if the rifle is disassembled then it is more of de-manufacturing so I'm not quite sure what happens when it gets logged out of the bound book since it isn't necessarily leaving as a full rifle if just the lower is sold later. However, I would assume putting on a different upper would then be manufacturing.. eh, I'm confusing myself with this scenario.

We'll see what others come back with...

Quiet
12-19-2009, 7:31 AM
AFAIK...

Rifle gets logged in as a rifle (20" barrel) and logged out as a rifle (16" barrel). No manufacturing because it's still a rifle.

Reciever gets logged in as a reciever and logged out as a single-shot pistol.
Manufacturing because it gets logged in as one thing and out as another.

lorax3
12-19-2009, 11:47 AM
Here is something interesting I found here (http://johnjacobh.wordpress.com/2008/08/17/atf-changes-definition-of-manufacturer/).

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Firearms Technology Branch
August 15, 2008
Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405
www.atf.gov

Manufacturing of Firearms

Below are examples of operations performed on firearms and guidance as to
whether or not such operations would be considered manufacturing under the
Gun Control Act (GCA). These examples do not address the question of whether
the operations are considered manufacturing for purposes of determining
excise tax. Any questions concerning the payment of excise tax should be
directed to the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau, U.S. Department of
the Treasury.

Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if
the person:

1) is performing operations that create firearms or alter firearms (in the
case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of
customers, rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them
making the changes, and then reselling them);
2) is performing the operations as a regular course of business or trade;
and
3) is performing the operations for the purpose of sale or distribution of
the firearms.

1. A company produces a quantity of firearm frames or receivers for sale
to customers who will assemble firearms. The company is engaged in the
business of manufacturing firearms and should be licensed as a manufacturer
of firearms.

2. A company produces frames or receivers for another company that
assembles and sells the firearms. Both companies are engaged in the
business of manufacturing firearms,
and each should be licensed as a manufacturer of firearms.

3. A company provides frames to a subcontractor company that performs
machining operations on the frames and returns the frames to the original
company that assembles and sells the completed firearms. Both companies are
engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms and should be licensed as
manufacturers of firearms.

4. A company produces barrels for firearms and sells the barrels to
another company that assembles and sells complete firearms. Because barrels
are not firearms, the company that manufactures the barrels is not a
manufacturer of firearms. The company that assembles and sells the firearms
should be licensed as a manufacturer of firearms.

5. A company receives firearm frames from individual customers, attaches
stocks and barrels, and returns the firearms to the customers for the
customers’ personal use. The operations performed on the firearms were not
for the purpose of sale or distribution. The company should be licensed as a
dealer or gunsmith, not as a manufacturer of firearms.

6. A company acquires one receiver, assembles one firearm, and sells the
firearm. The company is not manufacturing firearms as a regular course of
trade or business and is not engaged in the business of manufacturing
firearms. This company does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer.

7. An individual acquires frames or receivers and assembles firearms for
his or her personal use, not for sale or distribution. The individual is
not manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution and is not required to
be a licensed manufacturer.

8. A gunsmith regularly buys military-type firearms, Mausers, etc., and
sporterizes” them for resale. The gunsmith is in the business of
manufacturing firearms and should be licensed as a manufacturer.

9. A gunsmith buys semiautomatic pistols and modifies the slides to
accept a new style of sights. The sights are not usually sold with these
firearms and do not attach to the existing mounting openings. The gunsmith
offers these firearms for sale. This would be considered the manufacturing
of firearms, and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

10. A gunsmith buys government model pistols and installs “drop-in”
precision trigger parts or other “drop-in parts” for the purpose of resale.
This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms, as the gunsmith is
purchasing the firearms, modifying the firearms, and selling them. The
gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

11. A gunsmith buys surplus military rifles, bends the bolts to accept a
scope, and then drills the receivers for a scope base. The gunsmith offers
these firearms for sale. This would be considered the manufacturing of
firearms, and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

12. A gunsmith buys surplus military rifles or pistols and removes the
stocks, adds new stocks or pistol grips, cleans the firearms, then sends the
firearms to a separate contractor for bluing. These firearms are then sold
to the public. This would be considered manufacturing of firearms, and the
gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

13. A company purchases surplus firearms, cleans the firearms, then
offers them for sale to the public. The company does not need to be
licensed as a manufacturer.

14. A company produces firearms or firearm receivers and sends the firearm/receivers out for colorizing (bluing, camouflaging, phosphating, or plating) and/or heat treating. Do the companies performing the colorization and/or heat treating need to be licensed as manufacturers, and are the companies required to place their markings on the firearm? ATF has determined that both colorization and heat treating of firearms are manufacturing processes. The companies performing the processes are required to be licensed as manufacturers. If the companies providing colorization and/or heat treating have not received variances to adopt the original manufacturer’s markings, they would be required to place their own markings on any firearm on which they perform the manufacturing process of colorization and/or heat treating.

USMG
12-19-2009, 12:56 PM
It does get logged in as one and out another. He needs an out of state class 7 to do the work, it gets filed as a pistol, then shipped to you or the FFL in Ca to handle the transfer. We can do it, if you need it. Contact me to get all the specifics and costs.

ugimports
12-19-2009, 1:11 PM
It does get logged in as one and out another. He needs an out of state class 7 to do the work, it gets filed as a pistol, then shipped to you or the FFL in Ca to handle the transfer. We can do it, if you need it. Contact me to get all the specifics and costs.

He is shipping his upper to the guy that build up the lower. He was just trying to save some time by not having to ship the upper out. Not sure who he used, but we're all set now, thanks all.

freakshow10mm
12-21-2009, 10:19 AM
1. A rifle that comes in with a 20" barrel and the customer brings in a 16" they want to buy it with instead. The shop agrees to swap the barrels and sell the 20" as a part to someone else. Comes in as a rifle, leaves as a rifle. Manufacturing?
No.

2. A complete AR comes in, one of the shop employee's wants the upper. The shop decides to sell the upper to the employee and offer the complete lower to the masses. Comes in as a rifle, leaves as a rifle, or maybe an other.
In as rifle, out as rifle. In that situation as shop owner, I wouldn't split the weapon.