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View Full Version : OCSD Seized, and with the help of CGF, returned, my OLL


stan
12-17-2009, 11:19 PM
Hey everyone - this story is a little long but I feel its best that way. This is the EPIC SAGA of Orange County Sheriff's Deputy J. Finley, a reserve SWAT officer, and overall d-bag, seizing my AR-15 and how I was helped getting it back.

At 16:40 on 11-3-09, I was driving my car down Santa Margarita Parkway in Rancho Santa Margarita. A black police interceptor nearly hit my right front corner while he was changing lanes, and then braked hard and got behind me at the left turn light. I immediately got off my cell phone at that point. The police interceptor turned on its flashing lights, and I pulled over on a side street. I was then contacted by Deputy J. Finley of OCSD's Rancho Santa Margarita Police Services. He's a reserve S.W.A.T. officer and was in a black unmarked car.

From the very beginning of the stop, at 16:45, Finley was rude, suspicious, and seemed to be almost angry with me. I'm 20 years old, and have long hair. He asked me if there was any "guns, drugs, knives" etc in the car, to which i flatly responded "There is nothing illegal in the car sir." He then claimed to smell marijuana (this was quite obviously a lie), and pointed out a sandwich bag (yes, a sandwich bag) on my floor. I showed him it was empty, and smelled like FOOD (imagine that!) but at this point he had made up his mind.

Finley ordered my passenger and I to step out of the vehicle. At this point due to the fact that I am on informal probation for a misdemeanor, backup came and a search of my car commenced. When Finley made his way to the trunk, I informed him that I had my rifle in a range bag, unloaded in the trunk. He removed my rifle, a Stag Arms lower with a flat top upper and 10/30 pmag magazine locked in with a BULLET BUTTON. It was like someone had just rained guns and drugs from the great impound locker in the sky. Finley continued to search the car, finding my incomplete AK-47 build, some bulk 7.62 ammunition, and other random junk. Every time he found another gun related item, he would hold it up and look at me like I had killed his sister, cat, and broken his bicycle. He continued hassling me about where I got the bullets and what was I doing with "all this stuff". He set the rifle down on the trunk of his car during the search, and left the muzzle pointed straight at me. Since childhood, I was trained to treat all guns as loaded, and being in that position put me into a state of extreme panic and anxiety. I was treated like a second class citizen at best, but more just plain like a criminal.

I attempted to explain to Deputy Finley the legal definition of fixed magazine, and how my bullet button only allowed the magazine to be removed with a tool, which met the DOJ's and law's standards. In hindsight I should have had a more snarky remark for him removing the magazine with something on his belt loop. Finley repeatedly yelled in my face, and at one point slammed his voice recorder violently on the trunk of his car, shouting that "EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS BEING ****ING RECORDED". He also claimed that legislation had been passed outlawing bullet buttons, and that he knew this because two of his cases were what made that happen. He then told me a bullet is not a tool, and that I was in possession of an assault weapon. I was given a receipt for my rifle, ammunition, and magazines, and charged with no crime. Finley also gave me false information about how I could contest the seizure, told me that I absolutely would never be getting back my rifle, and that I would be receiving a call within a week or so regarding criminal charges.


Immediately after the whole fiasco, I went to OC Armory and spoke with Mike Penhall, the owner. This is where I have gone for all my OLL needs, and with good reason. Mike was extremely helpful, and directed me to contact Bill Wiese and / or Gene Hoffman at the Calguns Foundation. Already having been a member of calguns.net forums since April of 2008, I pm'd Gene and Bill, who got back in contact with me within a few hours. Bill then had one of the foundation's lawyers, Jason Davis, give me a call that very evening. I was thoroughly impressed, within a couple hours of my initial contact I was already speaking to an attorney. Jason was really awesome, he was articulate and seemed to know exactly what needed to be done. I went from freaked out and upset, to confident and calm.

Other than answering questions here and there, I was relieved of the issue at that point. Jason was constantly in contact by both e-mail and phone. He spoke with Mike at OC Armory, made calls to various divisions of OCSD, and even talked to Deputy Finley. The conversation with Finley was humorous from what I heard of it, and I was really amazed at how Mr. Davis handled the matter. I can only imagine the amount of time spent on my case, getting the run around on an issue that never should have happened. I would have been totally lost, and probably would never have received my rifle back if it were not for the help I received.

I had to submit the Law Enforcement Gun Release (LEGR) application to the DOJ, which cost me $20 or so, and after several weeks I got a letter back verifying that I was not a prohibited person. This morning I went to the property room of the OCSD in Santa Ana and was reunited with my beautiful tool. Unfortunately, their policy is not to return ammunition with the rifle, and since it was 25 rounds, I decided that it was going to be too costly to take the time to come get it another time.

I do not know the details, but my understanding is that OCSD did not have a policy on OLLs / bullet buttons, and my rifle was supposedly the first one of its kind that they seized. I believe they have decided to use the AW Flowchart, and I think that because of my case, and the help I was so graciously given, people in Orange County with bullet buttons may just be a little better off now.

What I really was awed by was how CGF and Jason Davis handled the whole matter. I'm a paralegal and studying law, and lawyers do not come cheap, nor is their work easy. The fact that the foundation supported my case and provided me with counsel, without having ever met me was really great. It goes to show that the money people donate really does go to a good cause. Jason is an asset to our community both as an attorney, and a fellow gun owner, and CGF makes it possible for people like me to be aided by people like Jason when the gun grabbers attack.
-Stan.

Edit by artherd:

A quick note from Ben Cannon, Treasurer of CGF.

Stan, Your story just went out on CGNN. I had long hair as a kid too. Turns out, it's not a crime.

Guys, this is what we do here at CGF, day in day out. Most stories never see the light of day, yet we spend thousands teaching District Attorneys the law. Freedom is NOT free, please think about making a donation to CGF:

https://www.gunpal.net/images/buttons/gunpal_donate_v1.png (https://www.gunpal.net/gp?req=xpress&hbid=0000000001086101)

oaklander
12-17-2009, 11:22 PM
Glad that CGF could be of service!!!

Woot!

:D

ke6guj
12-17-2009, 11:24 PM
did he originally seize both rifles, or just the Stag?

Roadrunner
12-17-2009, 11:28 PM
yeah, things like this keep reminding me why i left urbania. btw, congratulations on getting your rifle back.

hoffmang
12-17-2009, 11:35 PM
These incidents are both becoming more rare and are resolving much more quickly than they have in the past. These are trends we like!

Congrats on being reunited with your firearm.

-Gene

psssniper
12-17-2009, 11:36 PM
IIRC Finley is the douche that made one of the first OLL "busts" in Orange county and it happened to a friend of mine. Guess what? All charges dropped. And this idiots still trying to hassle us? My brother works for OCSD so I'm not just LEO bashing here, Finley is an idiot first class.

Seesm
12-17-2009, 11:40 PM
I have never met face to face any of the "big guys" YET.. But I am very impressed with the info they give to us. To teach us to be smarter about what we legally CAN do...

The antis want to confuse it all so we are scared and do not do wha t we want and know is legal.

I love this place and I am greatful for you Op that you were helped so professionally by the CGF.

Hurray for Bill, Gene and ALL the rest. THANKS!!

BTW Pretty pumped that maybe Officer Findley learned something about OLL's FUNNY... Hope he is niceer to the "next" OLL owner...

hamster
12-17-2009, 11:42 PM
Horray CGF!

gose
12-17-2009, 11:44 PM
http://blog.ocsd.org/post/2009/11/09/Congressman-Miller-Honors-Department-for-Public-Safety-Efforts.aspx

;)

Trench Broom
12-17-2009, 11:46 PM
Definetly good news! :thumbsup: Glad everything worked out.

NorCalMama
12-17-2009, 11:49 PM
Sooo, if you weren't being charged with any crime, how did he justify confiscating your stuff?????

He then told me a bullet is not a tool, and that I was in possession of an assault weapon. I was given a receipt for my rifle, ammunition, and magazines, and charged with no crime.

Glad it worked out at least! :)

Vanguard
12-17-2009, 11:53 PM
Sweet! Good job CGF!

I'm glad you got your rifle back, Stan. It also sounds like officer Finley got a little bit of an education.

Mssr. Eleganté
12-17-2009, 11:54 PM
BTW Pretty pumped that maybe Officer Findley learned something about OLL's FUNNY... Hope he is niceer to the "next" OLL owner...

I don't know. It seems that whenever one of his OLL busts gets thrown out, Officer Findley interprets that to mean that he has single handedly created a new law banning OLLs. :)

Liberty1
12-18-2009, 12:05 AM
Good show! I've always known my donations to CGF are put to good use getting real tangible results but it is always great to hear about the individuals supported and defended!!!! :)

Some of these super cops (ya even those of us who have to work with them don't like them) will some day meet Mr. 1983 to good effect I'm sure.

wildhawker
12-18-2009, 12:18 AM
Fantastic- another win for the RKBA and CGF!

toopercentmlk
12-18-2009, 12:22 AM
That you CGF, stories like this don't just help the individual in need but also instills confidence to everyone else who notices.

hoffmang
12-18-2009, 12:22 AM
Some of these super cops (ya even those of us who have to work with them don't like them) will some day meet Mr. 1983 to good effect I'm sure.
;)

-Gene

ChrisO
12-18-2009, 12:29 AM
That's awesome! I am glad you got you're rifle back bud! I am so glad to be a member here on Calguns, CGF is a beautiful thing :) good job all you guys over at GCF keep up the good work!

NiteQwill
12-18-2009, 12:39 AM
I remember the initial thread about this.

I'm glad it all worked out.

Another reason folks should donate to the CGF.

Digital_Boy
12-18-2009, 12:52 AM
Kudos to CGF for getting your property returned. However, given this Finley characters history, I sincerely doubt he's changed his tune regarding OLLs. It'd be very illuminating if any calguns members (or friends thereof) who've had dealings with him could contact the powers that be and get a paper trail going to establish a pattern of disregard for CA state law on the part of Deputy Finley, and take that to his superiors. Maybe a black mark in his record is the only thing that will cause him to modify his behavior and treatment of law abiding gun owners.

bigcalidave
12-18-2009, 1:21 AM
Well, great results! I'm glad this all worked out without too much hassle, and you never even had to go to jail!

Liberty1
12-18-2009, 1:22 AM
;)

-Gene

and I'll raise you a double ;);), nudge nudge, say no more say no more...wicked! :43:

ona-RhLfRfc

jdberger
12-18-2009, 1:32 AM
Yipee for CGF!

jdberger
12-18-2009, 1:34 AM
http://blog.ocsd.org/post/2009/11/09/Congressman-Miller-Honors-Department-for-Public-Safety-Efforts.aspx

;)

Nice - kid got an award for stifling free speech too.

What a guy...:rolleyes:

caoboy
12-18-2009, 1:36 AM
Glad you got your EBR back!

If you haven't I'd say you should file a complaint against him.

wikidklown
12-18-2009, 1:52 AM
Wow, simply an amazing story from a lawful citizen harrassed by someone we pay to protect and serve us....
Congrats on getting your stuff back and kudos to CGF, Bill, and Gene.

battleship
12-18-2009, 1:53 AM
Fantastic news and a pleasure to read.

So this Finley character basically lied to you in order to seize your rifles, isn't that illegal in its self.

There has to be some sort of reprimand for such actions, surely.

Anyway its nice to know we have great and wize people on our side.

PatriotnMore
12-18-2009, 4:32 AM
Don't know how I missed this story, but a big thanks to CGF, Jason Davis, and all here who worked in support of Stan, and our rights.

Without the legal efforts we have from CGF, the legal staff, ect.... I am sure this would have been a different story. Let's remember to continue to financially support CGF whenever possible.

stan
12-18-2009, 4:36 AM
Don't know how I missed this story, but a big thanks to CGF, Jason Davis, and all here who worked in support of Stan, and our rights.

Without the legal efforts we have from CGF, the legal staff, ect.... I am sure this would have been a different story. Let's remember to continue to financially support CGF whenever possible.

seriously!

i didn't really understand much about CGF before, and to a lot of people they may just appear to be an organization. in reality, they are there when people like you and i have problems. CGF has shown me that they will rise to the occasion when california gun owners have trouble. When I have some money to spare, I definitely plan to donate. i've experienced firsthand what donations to CGF are used for. thanks to them, orange county OLL owners can feel confident in their bullet buttons and the fact that OCSD knows now what they are and that they are legal.

PatriotnMore
12-18-2009, 4:46 AM
You also may want to consider volunteering some of your time in legal help as I read you are, or are becoming a Para Legal, just a thought.

seriously!

i didn't really understand much about CGF before, and to a lot of people they may just appear to be an organization. in reality, they are there when people like you and i have problems. CGF has shown me that they will rise to the occasion when california gun owners have trouble. When I have some money to spare, I definitely plan to donate. i've experienced firsthand what donations to CGF are used for. thanks to them, orange county OLL owners can feel confident in their bullet buttons and the fact that OCSD knows now what they are and that they are legal.

GrizzlyGuy
12-18-2009, 7:49 AM
That's awesome, and the story triggered me to send in another donation to CGF. Keep up the good work guys!

WeekendWarrior
12-18-2009, 7:50 AM
Congrats! Calguns is such a great community, i am so happy and proud to be a part of it!

RRangel
12-18-2009, 7:56 AM
It's great that it worked out as it should. This event is but another example of poor service and violation of rights from those that are supossed to be dealing with real criminals instead of harassing gunowners.

As far as I'm concerned what officer Findley did amounts to theft under color of law.

nikonuser
12-18-2009, 8:35 AM
It is good to know that BB equipped OLLs are not getting confiscated and owners not getting thrown into jail. This type of cases definitely proves the legality of owning BB equipped OLLs in RPK. Thanks to all the founding fathers of CGN in protecting the 2A rights of RPK citizens.

KaHuNaZ
12-18-2009, 8:38 AM
wow. what a cool story. props to CGN! Glad to hear everything worked out okay!

The Director
12-18-2009, 8:38 AM
CGF Rules!

I would file a complaint.....that douche can't just yell at you and swear....that's total BS.

WokMaster1
12-18-2009, 8:45 AM
OP was pulled over by an ummarked car. I thought that was a no-no in CA. Or was was OP in McFinley county?:)

Ronco
12-18-2009, 8:59 AM
Great Story!

Just contributed to CGF.

My first time using GunPal.

Everyone should try it.

Untamed1972
12-18-2009, 9:01 AM
IIRC Finley is the douche that made one of the first OLL "busts" in Orange county and it happened to a friend of mine. Guess what? All charges dropped. And this idiots still trying to hassle us? My brother works for OCSD so I'm not just LEO bashing here, Finley is an idiot first class.


Perhaps it's time for someone to file a complaint against this deputy if he is still out there stomping all over people's rights and acting unprofessionally?

Digital_Boy
12-18-2009, 9:31 AM
Perhaps it's time for someone to file a complaint against this deputy if he is still out there stomping all over people's rights and acting unprofessionally?

Yep. The OP mentioned that another calgunner had a similar run in with Deputy Finley, with a similar outcome: property returned after jumping through hoops, no charges filed. They can't be the only two to have run afoul of this guy. Putting paper in his jacket will get his attention. Maybe his lieutenant will get so tired of taking complaints that he'll reassign him to some other duty where he can't be a pain in the keester to the public.

rtlltj
12-18-2009, 9:37 AM
It's nice to know someone has our back. Knowing your not on your own when shtf is a good thing for all of us.

pullnshoot25
12-18-2009, 9:46 AM
CGF/CGN FTW!

Dirtbiker
12-18-2009, 9:49 AM
This is great news hopefully the OCSD will have a training day about this incident.

Now, I wonder how the arresting officer would have handled a featureless rifle with standard cap mags.

n2k
12-18-2009, 9:50 AM
It's nice to know someone has our back. Knowing your not on your own when shtf is a good thing for all of us.

True, but our conduct should be maintained at the highest level of caution and concern. We should educate ourselves to the fullest and not rely on the fact that CGF is there to bail us out.

The fight is on going and as we feel more comfortable with our gaining of our rightful freedoms is when we become more complacent in our actions. The less need for CGF to take action on behalf of the citizenry the better.

Good Job Gentlemen!

SteveH
12-18-2009, 9:51 AM
There is no such thing as a "Reserve SWAT officer" in OCSD. What misdemeanor are you on probation for and did you get a cell phone ticket?

radioburning
12-18-2009, 9:57 AM
This is great news! CGF=Win.

SteveH
12-18-2009, 9:59 AM
OP was pulled over by an ummarked car. I thought that was a no-no in CA. Or was was OP in McFinley county?:)

An officer assigned primarily to traffic duty may not use an unmarked car for those duties. But an officer driving an "unmarked" car is not required to ignore violations of the vehicle code. As long as this guy wasnt a "traffic" officer there is nothing in state law prohibiting him from using an "unmarked" car.

SteveH
12-18-2009, 10:05 AM
This is great news hopefully the OCSD will have a training day about this incident.

Now, I wonder how the arresting officer would have handled a featureless rifle with standard cap mags.

Probably still poorly.

This is a classic example of a cop with overly narrow focus. The kind of cop who is all about drivers license status, warrants, probation or parole, drugs and weapons. Anything outside of that narrow focus and they start missing or even ignoring things.

This guy took a simple CVC stop involving a probationer and due to the presence of a firearm got tunnel vison to the point he completely forgot about the reason he stopped him. Enforce the terms of his probation, issue him a cite for the CVC violation and drive on.

CAL.BAR
12-18-2009, 10:20 AM
Big congrats on the victory. But a question. Why were you driving around with all the stuff in the trunk? Regardless of legality, it's not generally a good idea to drive around with valuable/dangerous items in your trunk unless directly on the way to/from the shooting range.

n2k
12-18-2009, 10:25 AM
Big congrats on the victory. But a question. Why were you driving around with all the stuff in the trunk? Regardless of legality, it's not generally a good idea to drive around with valuable/dangerous items in your trunk unless directly on the way to/from the shooting range.

???

I have something in my trunk at all times......

LLave
12-18-2009, 10:30 AM
That is exactly why i love Cal Guns, it makes you feel like someone has your back.

Purple K
12-18-2009, 10:40 AM
Bill & Gene

:King:

SteveH
12-18-2009, 10:42 AM
???

I have something in my trunk at all times......

I think DJ has a point. If you are on probation, driving around with gun parts and ammo in your trunk is probably poor OpSec. A functional trunk gun i could understand. But an incomplete AK build and 7.62x39mm ammo when you dont have a functional firearm in that caliber. Kinda pointless for anyone and risky for a probationer. Not everything thats legal to do is smart to do.

GuyW
12-18-2009, 10:43 AM
Deputy Finley is so certifiably stupid, that he should be fired, and his gun rights taken.

Good job, CGF
.

Untamed1972
12-18-2009, 10:51 AM
Probably still poorly.

This is a classic example of a cop with overly narrow focus. The kind of cop who is all about drivers license status, warrants, probation or parole, drugs and weapons. Anything outside of that narrow focus and they start missing or even ignoring things.

This guy took a simple CVC stop involving a probationer and due to the presence of a firearm got tunnel vison to the point he completely forgot about the reason he stopped him. Enforce the terms of his probation, issue him a cite for the CVC violation and drive on.


Since the deputy almost hit the OP when he was changing lanes and then slowed to get behind, what his PC for the stop? Was it the cell phone violation?

SteveH
12-18-2009, 10:52 AM
Since the deputy almost hit the OP when he was changing lanes and then slowed to get behind, what his PC for the stop? Was it the cell phone violation?

Fromthe OP's post i was under the impression he stopped him for talking on the cell phone. Did I get that wrong?

Jeff213
12-18-2009, 11:17 AM
Glad you got your guns back, this kind of thing makes me glad I am moving to a free state (Oklahoma) in July.

aermotor
12-18-2009, 11:25 AM
Incredible! All of this in just over a month? CFG for the mother flippin' win! Where would we be without CG? Donation time.

I think DJ has a point. If you are on probation, driving around with gun parts and ammo in your trunk is probably poor OpSec. A functional trunk gun i could understand. But an incomplete AK build and 7.62x39mm ammo when you dont have a functional firearm in that caliber. Kinda pointless for anyone and risky for a probationer. Not everything thats legal to do is smart to do.

Agreed completely... when I read the probation line I was like "ohh christ, why have that stuff in your car i the first place if you're not going to the range!" But oh well. Lessons learned.

Also, what was his reason for pulling you over in the first place?

stan
12-18-2009, 11:30 AM
Big congrats on the victory. But a question. Why were you driving around with all the stuff in the trunk? Regardless of legality, it's not generally a good idea to drive around with valuable/dangerous items in your trunk unless directly on the way to/from the shooting range.

I had just put on my holo sight and gone to the range to work on dialing it in the night before (which was the first time I had shot the rifle). Stop was after work the next day, was on my way to grab some food and go to the range to finish adjusting it.

stan
12-18-2009, 11:33 AM
There is no such thing as a "Reserve SWAT officer" in OCSD. What misdemeanor are you on probation for and did you get a cell phone ticket?


he didn't give me a cell phone ticket, and the misdemeanor was "contributing to the delinquency of a minor", may of 2007 (it was right after my 18th bday, was with 17 year old friends who got caught with drugs and somehow it became my problem). got 3 years of informal probation and 10 days of community service.

stan
12-18-2009, 11:35 AM
Since the deputy almost hit the OP when he was changing lanes and then slowed to get behind, what his PC for the stop? Was it the cell phone violation?

yes, and the terms of my probation are follow all laws, and submit to searches.


if i had walked out of there with a cell phone ticket i would have accepted it, because thats what i was doing wrong. he took the stop in a completely unrelated direction, and handled it really unprofessionally.

stan
12-18-2009, 11:38 AM
I think DJ has a point. If you are on probation, driving around with gun parts and ammo in your trunk is probably poor OpSec. A functional trunk gun i could understand. But an incomplete AK build and 7.62x39mm ammo when you dont have a functional firearm in that caliber. Kinda pointless for anyone and risky for a probationer. Not everything thats legal to do is smart to do.

i'm a messy dude, the incomplete build was in there along with camping gear and stuff from the build party. simple oversight, legal, but i agree not the best idea. however i dont think it is fair for you to say "risky for a probationer". I got caught with the wrong people a month or two after i turned 18, and that was the one and only time I've been in trouble with the law other than traffic tickets. my probation requires me to follow all laws, and submit to searches, and thats all.

mej16489
12-18-2009, 11:38 AM
This is a perfect reason for another CGF donation....incoming!

Vtec44
12-18-2009, 12:16 PM
Awesome story! Once again, thank you Calguns Foundation!!!

McCrown
12-18-2009, 12:37 PM
Congrats on the awsome turnout. It's great to have CGF there to help out in a pinch and set things right. Keep up the great work.

$20 to get your stuff back after it was inappropriatly siezed seems unjustified, so does not getting everthing back at once (ammo). I hope someday this will change.

johnthomas
12-18-2009, 12:49 PM
Stan, I am glad you got steered in the right direction. CGF, great job and thank you for defending Stan's rights and our right to own guns. Stan, also thank you for explaining your probation, although it was unnecessary, that is your private business. Some of these guys forget youth and pick apart everything that is posted. Keep going in the right direction and you will fine.

Untamed1972
12-18-2009, 1:34 PM
yes, and the terms of my probation are follow all laws, and submit to searches.


So when they "must submit to searches" does that mean any time, any place, for any reason, even absent PC?

Just curious.

CAL.BAR
12-18-2009, 1:37 PM
So when they "must submit to searches" does that mean any time, any place, for any reason, even absent PC?

Just curious.

Yes - if the probation included a waiver of the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure.

SteveH
12-18-2009, 2:07 PM
So when they "must submit to searches" does that mean any time, any place, for any reason, even absent PC?

Just curious.

Yes. In fact the cops can go knock on his door and toss his house anytime they want until the probation is terminated. No RS or PC needed. Though it doesnt usually happen much with informal probationers as the cops are going to go after formal probationers & parolees first if they have the time to do self initiated probation/Parole searches.

Nobody is ever forced to accept S&S terms though. You can always tell the judge the terms of the probation are unacceptable and you would rather do the straight time. Search and Seizure and no weapons restrictions are two probation terms that I personally would be unable to live with. I would have to take the straight time. other restrictions like Violate no law, always carry ID, only use true identity, ect are much easier to live with.

Untamed1972
12-18-2009, 2:18 PM
Yes. In fact the cops can go knock on his door and toss his house anytime they want until the probation is terminated. No RS or PC needed. Though it doesnt usually happen much with informal probationers as the cops are going to go after formal probationers & parolees first if they have the time to do self initiated probation/Parole searches.

Nobody is ever forced to accept S&S terms though. You can always tell the judge the terms of the probation are unacceptable and you would rather do the straight time. Search and Seizure and no weapons restrictions are two probation terms that I personally would be unable to live with. I would have to take the straight time. other restrictions like Violate no law, always carry ID, only use true identity, ect are much easier to live with.


I knew they did 4th waivers with parolees....never realized they did that with informal probation though. Sheesh......seems kinda overkill for something that obviously wasn't that serious of an offense to only warrant unsupervised probation.

MudCamper
12-18-2009, 2:25 PM
From the very beginning of the stop, at 16:45, Finley was rude, suspicious, and seemed to be almost angry with me. ...

Finley repeatedly yelled in my face, and at one point slammed his voice recorder violently on the trunk of his car, shouting that "EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS BEING ****ING RECORDED".

Perhaps you should do a CPRA request and get a copy of that recording, and then publish it here. Sounds like this guy has a serious attitude problem, and maybe some public exposure will help him correct it.

SteveH
12-18-2009, 2:32 PM
I knew they did 4th waivers with parolees....never realized they did that with informal probation though. Sheesh......seems kinda overkill for something that obviously wasn't that serious of an offense to only warrant unsupervised probation.

Depends on the charges. For example DUI probationers rarely have S&S terms but will have alcohol restrictions. Drug and weapon charges probationers usually will have S&S terms, but no alcohol restrictions. The nature of the charges will usually dictate what type of probation terms the DA asks for in the plead bargain.

Additionally do not assume unsupervised probation is only used for non "serious" offenses. I've seen informal probation for ADW, 240&242, domestic violence, restraining order violations, weapons violations, burglary, vandalism, theft from unlocked vehicles, aggrivated tresspass and many other charges. If its a wobbler and the DA files or pleads down to a misdemeanor informal probation is the likely result unless the defendant has an extensive criminal history. figure first arrest/fine, second arrest/informal probation, third arrest formal probation, forth arrest jail time. You gotta try pretty hard to end up on Formal probation in Orange county courts.

SteveH
12-18-2009, 2:35 PM
Perhaps you should do a CPRA request and get a copy of that recording, and then publish it here. Sounds like this guy has a serious attitude problem, and maybe some public exposure will help him correct it.

If he really used profanity publishing it here wont accomplish a thing. A formal complaint to IA on the other hand is likely to result in some discipline or remedial training. Especially if there is a history of rude, profane or unprofessional conduct. Of course if no one ever files a formal complaint and instead just complains on the internet no history ever gets documented.

Fate
12-18-2009, 3:37 PM
Booyah!! The CalGuns Foundation - better than whupass in a can

thempopresense
12-18-2009, 3:59 PM
Thanks CGF, it's nice to know the donations large and small make a difference!

Ishoot
12-18-2009, 4:04 PM
Great news. Glad to hear that Calguns is making such an impact.

TaxAnnihilator
12-18-2009, 4:07 PM
Depends on the charges. For example DUI probationers rarely have S&S terms but will have alcohol restrictions. Drug and weapon charges probationers usually will have S&S terms, but no alcohol restrictions. The nature of the charges will usually dictate what type of probation terms the DA asks for in the plead bargain.

Additionally do not assume unsupervised probation is only used for non "serious" offenses. I've seen informal probation for ADW, 240&242, domestic violence, restraining order violations, weapons violations, burglary, vandalism, theft from unlocked vehicles, aggrivated tresspass and many other charges. If its a wobbler and the DA files or pleads down to a misdemeanor informal probation is the likely result unless the defendant has an extensive criminal history. figure first arrest/fine, second arrest/informal probation, third arrest formal probation, forth arrest jail time. You gotta try pretty hard to end up on Formal probation in Orange county courts.

When I was with the Riverside DA the only Probation that didn't have search terms were those where they slipped by in error. Defense prepared the forms and would try to sneak them by without the Search terms, I always caught them in the Drug Unit!

NovaTodd
12-18-2009, 4:58 PM
Thank you CalGuns.
A donation will be made shortly.

SteveH
12-18-2009, 6:28 PM
When I was with the Riverside DA the only Probation that didn't have search terms were those where they slipped by in error. Defense prepared the forms and would try to sneak them by without the Search terms, I always caught them in the Drug Unit!

Every DA's office is different. I've been told that in some counties they are reluctant to have search & seizure terms for drug probationers because it increases the chances the defendant will get arrested again. Wouldnt want it to look like Pc1000 & Prop 36 are not working.

five.five-six
12-18-2009, 6:47 PM
congrats...this when much better than it dit for matt several years ago


for some reason, I am pretty burned up about the officer Finley. I have 1/2 a mind to call OCSD and just make an ars out of myself on the phone... several times

Dark Paladin
12-18-2009, 6:52 PM
Maybe its a good idea to ask the current Sheriff candidates about how they would handle personnel issues like these. Supporting CCW is great and all, but we really shouldn't miss the whole 2A big picture. . .

pdq_wizzard
12-18-2009, 7:32 PM
more $$ to CGF :)

MrBrent
12-18-2009, 9:15 PM
One more great reason I have a automatic monthly payment to CGF!! Great work.

k1dude
12-18-2009, 9:16 PM
Thanks for sharing your story Stan. I will make an additional donation to Calguns as a result. Thank you Calguns!

SteveH
12-19-2009, 12:06 AM
congrats...this when much better than it dit for matt several years ago


Matt had some extra color with the sap gloves and folding throwing stars and such. This sounds like a much more straight foreward case.

ponderosa
12-19-2009, 12:28 AM
Glad to hear you got your rifle back! Thank you Calguns.

B Strong
12-19-2009, 6:56 AM
Stan,

Great to hear that things worked out in your favor, but a word of advice - do not leave firearms in your vehicle overnight! along comes Mr. Meth-head and his little score turns into a bonanza, and you're out of luck.

Lot's of folks lose firearms in car burglaries, don't be one of them.

VW*Mike
12-19-2009, 11:53 AM
Great news! Momentum is gaining in our favor. CGF and OC Armory are great, they are right down the street from me. I wish I had more money to give to BOTH of them! Damn economy!

CSACANNONEER
12-19-2009, 12:27 PM
Stan,

You did get everything but your ammo back, right? Or, did they not take the AK build in the first place? Anyway, glad to hear it worked out. I hope that you get to meet the officer again someday after you pass the bar and that you can pick him apart in court regarding some future case. It looks like the CGF might get another volunteer attorney as soon as you pass the bar. Right? Glad to hear everything turned out for the best. Too bad you can't take the officer to small claims court for the $20 and the cost of the ammo.

I guess that I will have to make a another donation to CGF and, pledge funds from the next BP to the CGF as well. Also, if you decide to come to the next BP, I'll cover your "contribution" to the cause.

E Pluribus Unum
12-19-2009, 12:39 PM
I'm a paralegal and studying law

If this is true, then why are you speaking to the police? As soon as a LEO starts talking about "Criminal charges," "arrest," et cetera, your mouth should be sewed shut.

IIRC Finley is the douche that made one of the first OLL "busts" in Orange county and it happened to a friend of mine. Guess what? All charges dropped. And this idiots still trying to hassle us? My brother works for OCSD so I'm not just LEO bashing here, Finley is an idiot first class.

If this is true, the OP might have grounds for a civil rights lawsuit. If it can be established that this deputy knew OLL's were legal and he seized a rifle he knew was legal at the time, then he went beyond his color of authority and immunity goes out the window.

luckystrike
12-19-2009, 2:47 PM
I know who this finley is. never talked to him, but he always feels like starting a staring competition with me at the coffee shop whenever I see him there.

I know several guys with OCSD that are great people, but I hope that finley realizes that whenever he makes verbal contact with someone or how he conducts himself while in uniform he is also representing ALL of OCSD at all times. people like him give cops a bad reputation for all of them here.

donation to CGF inbound after christmas money comes thru. Thanks to bill Gene and the lawyer.

artherd
12-19-2009, 4:17 PM
Your story just went out on CGNN. I had long hair as a kid too. Turns out, it's not a crime.


Guys, this is what we do here at CGF, day in day out. Most stories never see the light of day, yet we spend thousands teaching District Attorneys the law. Freedom is NOT free, please think about making a donation to CGF:

https://www.gunpal.net/images/buttons/gunpal_donate_v1.png (https://www.gunpal.net/gp?req=xpress&hbid=0000000001086101)

jmlivingston
12-19-2009, 4:25 PM
Your story just went out on CGNN. I had long hair as a kid too. Turns out, it's not a crime.

So, does this mean you've grown up since I saw you last (at the NRA convention in Anaheim)? ;)

artherd
12-19-2009, 4:41 PM
So, does this mean you've grown up since I saw you last (at the NRA convention in Anaheim)? ;)

Still in my 20s, I can grow up anytime I want :D

Meplat
12-19-2009, 5:59 PM
Big congrats on the victory. But a question. Why were you driving around with all the stuff in the trunk? Regardless of legality, it's not generally a good idea to drive around with valuable/dangerous items in your trunk unless directly on the way to/from the shooting range.

Who died and left you the arbiter of "good ideas'?

Meplat
12-19-2009, 6:01 PM
???

I have something in my trunk at all times......

I have 'something' within reach at all times.:43:

Meplat
12-19-2009, 6:03 PM
Did he ever say it was 7.62 X 39?

I think DJ has a point. If you are on probation, driving around with gun parts and ammo in your trunk is probably poor OpSec. A functional trunk gun i could understand. But an incomplete AK build and 7.62x39mm ammo when you dont have a functional firearm in that caliber. Kinda pointless for anyone and risky for a probationer. Not everything thats legal to do is smart to do.

Meplat
12-19-2009, 6:16 PM
I don't think that is right for a misdemeanor. It may be the law, but it's not right.

I would hazard to postulate that any of us could be charged with a misdemeanor offence any day of our lives. To suspend the 4th amendment for this is ludicrous.

Yes - if the probation included a waiver of the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure.

SteveH
12-19-2009, 6:31 PM
I don't think that is right for a misdemeanor. It may be the law, but it's not right.

I would hazard to postulate that any of us could be charged with a misdemeanor offence any day of our lives. To suspend the 4th amendment for this is ludicrous.

Then refuse probation and take the straight time. sometimes its the best option.

scrat
12-19-2009, 7:16 PM
I just read the email on this i recieved from CG. Wow totally amazing. AWESOME JOB thank God we have CALGUNS

Redlinegts
12-19-2009, 7:34 PM
I was also recently pulled over and had my car searched by the Lake Forest PD. 10/30 magazine with bullet button in a discreet rifle case, same exact situation. They didn't take my rifle, but held me in their cruiser for an hour or so before they figured out I wasn't doing anything illegal. Afterwards, I cleared up some things about the laws with them and they seemed to be more educated in the end. This is will go a long way in educating other police officers in the area as well.

NiteQwill
12-19-2009, 8:03 PM
I was also recently pulled over and had my car searched by the Lake Forest PD. 10/30 magazine with bullet button in a discreet rifle case, same exact situation. They didn't take my rifle, but held me in their cruiser for an hour or so before they figured out I wasn't doing anything illegal. Afterwards, I cleared up some things about the laws with them and they seemed to be more educated in the end. This is will go a long way in educating other police officers in the area as well.

Why the heck did you get your car searched from the Sheriff's (they contract to Lake Forest)? Did you consent?

Edit: I just read they held you for "and hour or so." WTH? That's what I call an unreasonable detention...

SteveH
12-19-2009, 9:00 PM
I was also recently pulled over and had my car searched by the Lake Forest PD. 10/30 magazine with bullet button in a discreet rifle case, same exact situation. They didn't take my rifle, but held me in their cruiser for an hour or so before they figured out I wasn't doing anything illegal. Afterwards, I cleared up some things about the laws with them and they seemed to be more educated in the end. This is will go a long way in educating other police officers in the area as well.

Same Deputy?

Redlinegts
12-19-2009, 9:15 PM
Why the heck did you get your car searched from the Sheriff's (they contract to Lake Forest)? Did you consent?

Edit: I just read they held you for "and hour or so." WTH? That's what I call an unreasonable detention...

Long story short, my girlfriend left her broken knife in my glove compartment without telling me and when I opened it to get my registration the officer saw it and told me to get out of the car. One thing led to another and my rifle was discovered in the trunk.

Same Deputy?

Different deputies, they were nice about it and doing their job. They weren't being asshats.

NiteQwill
12-19-2009, 9:17 PM
Long story short, my girlfriend left her broken knife in my glove compartment without telling me and when I opened it to get my registration the officer saw it and told me to get out of the car. One thing led to another and my rifle was discovered in the trunk.



Different deputies, they were nice about it and doing their job. They weren't being asshats.

A knife?! I carry a knife on my person all the time. Nothing about a knife should be suspicious... granted you don't have a kitchen knife dripping with blood on it. I'm sorry, but you got misled into an unreasonable search.

E Pluribus Unum
12-19-2009, 10:27 PM
A knife?! I carry a knife on my person all the time. Nothing about a knife should be suspicious... granted you don't have a kitchen knife dripping with blood on it. I'm sorry, but you got misled into an unreasonable search.

Here is the key....

He said he was on probation for a misdemeanor conviction.

99% of the time, search is a condition of probation.

NiteQwill
12-19-2009, 10:31 PM
Here is the key....

He said he was on probation for a misdemeanor conviction.

99% of the time, search is a condition of probation.

No, this is in regards to Redlinegts' post, not stan.

Noobert
12-19-2009, 10:36 PM
Nice one stan, a testament to the power of CGN! I want to see the look on that douche's face!

chiz
12-19-2009, 10:38 PM
I just read this when I checked my email. Then I made a donation.

GarandFan
12-20-2009, 6:15 AM
Stan, it's great you got your firearm back, and great the situation was resolved. Also, good to know you have some great CalGunners to help out like that. I met Gene and Don Kilmer at the GRPC in St. Louis. Capable indeed!

That said, the situation you dealt with still seems like a far cry from "shall not be infringed."

Edited to add:
The local and intra-individual variation among law enforcement is astounding, but I suppose not surprising. When I lived in a sizeable TX town, I was pulled over for an improper lane change. I have long hair, too. :-) I happened to be heading to the range, and on the seat next to me was an uncased MAK-90 with a loaded mag in it. The officer came up to the car, asked for my DL, and gave me a warning for the lane change. Before he walked back to his car, he said "Nice AK. Is that K-VAR furniture on it?". It was.

4D5auto
12-20-2009, 9:45 AM
I'm almost ashamed to admit it, but after this incident was e-mailed to me from CG and hanging around this site for as long as I have, I finally donated to the cause! I will continue to donate, as maybe one day I may need the invaluable service this site has to offer! I hope not, but one never knows! I'm pretty sure I'm much older than most on this site, but hey, us old farts like to have fun too! Keep up the good work CG.

mike_j
12-20-2009, 9:48 AM
Great story, but now I am confused, a little more than usual. I also have a Stag AR15 w/bullet button. So do I need to keep an empty mag. in the magazine well while transporting my rifle to and from the range or wherever ?

hoffmang
12-20-2009, 10:13 AM
Great story, but now I am confused, a little more than usual. I also have a Stag AR15 w/bullet button. So do I need to keep an empty mag. in the magazine well while transporting my rifle to and from the range or wherever ?

As a legal matter you don't need the 10 round magazine in the BB AR to remain legal. However, as a practical matter, having the 10 round magazine in the firearm makes an encounter easier to explain to a LEO.

One of the things Jason Davis did on this occasion is to get OCSD to implement a formal policy and training on this issue. You'll see more from us on that topic.

-Gene

hoffmang
12-20-2009, 10:15 AM
I'm pretty sure I'm much older than most on this site, but hey, us old farts like to have fun too! Keep up the good work CG.

We've defended folks from 18 to early 60's so far. In this state age isn't the factor, it's hopolophobia and byzantine laws.

-Gene

supersonic
12-20-2009, 11:16 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I'l always be happy about the donations I make to CGF, because it friggin' WORKS!!!!! (I also hope 'Dirtbag' Finley gets what's coming to him soon (it's just a matter of time).;)

bakokid
12-20-2009, 12:26 PM
i would love to see stan get some help sueing the dept and individuals involved in the unlawful seizure. cops will keep doing these things until punished, it would give a nice statement to the rest of the LE community.

and as for the ammo it may not be worth the 25 rounds but none the less is wrong to keep anything taken from a law abiding citizen. if it is their policy to do such things it should be our policy to take them out of their LE positions and take everything from them. this is govt sponsored robbery. PUNISH THEM!!!

Mendo223
12-20-2009, 12:38 PM
awesome thread stories like this make me smile.

now if only we could file harrassment charges against this FInley guy, sounds like a grade A d-bag for sure. what a power trippin cop, god i hate people like that.

tac
12-20-2009, 1:49 PM
glad to hear it all worked out in the end

repeal17thamendment
12-20-2009, 3:58 PM
i would love to see stan get some help sueing the dept and individuals involved in the unlawful seizure. cops will keep doing these things until punished, it would give a nice statement to the rest of the LE community.

and as for the ammo it may not be worth the 25 rounds but none the less is wrong to keep anything taken from a law abiding citizen. if it is their policy to do such things it should be our policy to take them out of their LE positions and take everything from them. this is govt sponsored robbery. PUNISH THEM!!!

Thank God for calguns, but we shouldn't NEED calguns when we're not violating the law :mad: Anyway, is calguns going to finish the job and file a civil rights lawsuit against deputy Finley? If no one does, then there's nothing to celebrate here because Finley will just do the same thing to someone else and/or find another way to abuse citizen's rights. He doesn't belong in a police uniform. Period.

repeal17thamendment
12-20-2009, 4:24 PM
http://blog.ocsd.org/contact.aspx

JasonDavis
12-20-2009, 10:13 PM
I think it is important to note that Finley informed me that Orange County Sheriff Department did not have a policy on Bullet Buttons prior to the seizure. Though the firearm was wrongfully seized as an "assault weapon" when it was not, it was due to a lack of policy on the issue. The fact that they both returned the firearm and are now using the CGF flow chart for guidance is a huge step in the right direction. That being said, let's reserve the policy critiques for those who have not adopted the CGF AW Guide - ahem LAPD. Perhaps, dare I say, even provide positive feedback to the Sheriff on the comment page for their appreciation of the accuracy of the CGF AW Guide? A little goodwill goes a long way . . . sometimes. But when it doesn't, there's always the hammer.

Relyc
12-20-2009, 10:53 PM
This is fantastic news. Thanks CGF!

fishyducky
12-21-2009, 8:05 AM
Awesome! Got the email about the success.

SP1200
12-21-2009, 12:52 PM
Sooo, if you weren't being charged with any crime, how did he justify confiscating your stuff?????



Glad it worked out at least! :)


You don't have to be changed with a crime to have your Firearms, Ammo, or Cash seized by a police officer. Most departments have a smash and grab policy.

SP1200
12-21-2009, 12:59 PM
Perhaps it's time for someone to file a complaint against this deputy if he is still out there stomping all over people's rights and acting unprofessionally?

Unfortunately I think the only thing that will stop a corrupt LEO like that is a civil case that would cost the department money. Perhaps the OP should consider filing a law suit to get his legal fees returned to CGF?

We have to hit them where it hurts, their funds!

Redlinegts
12-22-2009, 1:44 AM
A knife?! I carry a knife on my person all the time. Nothing about a knife should be suspicious... granted you don't have a kitchen knife dripping with blood on it. I'm sorry, but you got misled into an unreasonable search.

Yea, I agree, but I think one of them was new to the department and was being a little over-cautious. It was late a night and I was a few blocks away from my house, it wasn't too big a deal, those two officers left with a little more information on our gun laws though :cool:

NiteQwill
12-22-2009, 2:26 AM
Yea, I agree, but I think one of them was new to the department and was being a little over-cautious. It was late a night and I was a few blocks away from my house, it wasn't too big a deal, those two officers left with a little more information on our gun laws though :cool:

2 steps forward and 4 steps backwards.

Willful infringements of yours rights is a big deal.

jmlivingston
12-22-2009, 6:44 AM
I think it is important to note that Finley informed me that Orange County Sheriff Department did not have a policy on Bullet Buttons prior to the seizure. Though the firearm was wrongfully seized as an "assault weapon" when it was not, it was due to a lack of policy on the issue. The fact that they both returned the firearm and are now using the CGF flow chart for guidance is a huge step in the right direction. That being said, let's reserve the policy critiques for those who have not adopted the CGF AW Guide - ahem LAPD. Perhaps, dare I say, even provide positive feedback to the Sheriff on the comment page for their appreciation of the accuracy of the CGF AW Guide? A little goodwill goes a long way . . . sometimes. But when it doesn't, there's always the hammer.

Thank you Jason for stepping in here and clarifying OCSD's lack of policy on this, which you've now corrected. When a large department such as the OCSD hasn't run into this issue enough to need a written policy for it, this should remind us that there is still a lot of work left to do on the education side of the OLL movement.

John

justinLB
12-22-2009, 8:10 AM
WOW this is a great outcome! SO you wanna come over and finish up that AK?

SteveH
12-22-2009, 2:59 PM
I think it is important to note that Finley informed me that Orange County Sheriff Department did not have a policy on Bullet Buttons prior to the seizure. Though the firearm was wrongfully seized as an "assault weapon" when it was not, it was due to a lack of policy on the issue. The fact that they both returned the firearm and are now using the CGF flow chart for guidance is a huge step in the right direction. That being said, let's reserve the policy critiques for those who have not adopted the CGF AW Guide - ahem LAPD. Perhaps, dare I say, even provide positive feedback to the Sheriff on the comment page for their appreciation of the accuracy of the CGF AW Guide? A little goodwill goes a long way . . . sometimes. But when it doesn't, there's always the hammer.

Any indication that the department would be addressing Finley's alleged unprofessional and profane conduct? Thats a seperate issue than the gun issue and effects far more Orange county residents.

Redlinegts
12-25-2009, 12:48 AM
2 steps forward and 4 steps backwards.

Willful infringements of yours rights is a big deal.

I won't let it happen again, but what was more important for me was that I was teaching the officers the whole time about California gun laws so that other people won't have to deal with them. I think the hour I spent with them was more beneficial to me than a pain. Not like I had anything else to do that night lol. Trust me though, I won't let it happen again, I know my rights, I just need to exercise them more.

SteveH
01-11-2010, 4:55 PM
I've been told that OCSD has recently published a training bulletin about the "bullet button."

bwiese
01-11-2010, 5:25 PM
I've been told that OCSD has recently published a training bulletin about the "bullet button."

It may just be - or associated with - the CG AW flowchart

Meplat
01-12-2010, 4:12 PM
It's not their money. It's our money, ergo, they don't give a rats.:(

Unfortunately I think the only thing that will stop a corrupt LEO like that is a civil case that would cost the department money. Perhaps the OP should consider filing a law suit to get his legal fees returned to CGF?

We have to hit them where it hurts, their funds!

SteveH
01-12-2010, 5:15 PM
It may just be - or associated with - the CG AW flowchart

The training bullten apparently includes links to several website like the CALDOJ, ATF and yes a link to the GNF flowchart. Though the flow chart is not referred to or reproduced directly.

n2k
01-12-2010, 5:19 PM
It may just be - or associated with - the CG AW flowchart

The training bullten apparently includes links to several website like the CALDOJ, ATF and yes a link to the GNF flowchart. Though the flow chart is not referred to or reproduced directly.

Well here is the thread that posts it from Jason Davis:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=258612

Bray556
04-11-2010, 11:51 AM
Wow... I didn't know my lower was such a criminal.

Doheny
04-11-2010, 11:58 AM
Wow... I didn't know my lower was such a criminal.

No, but you are for posting on a three month old thread.

:chris:

vrand
04-11-2010, 1:39 PM
These incidents are both becoming more rare and are resolving much more quickly than they have in the past. These are trends we like!

Congrats on being reunited with your firearm.

-Gene

:thumbsup:

Seesm
04-11-2010, 2:47 PM
No, but you are for posting on a three month old thread.

:chris:

Dooooh Doheny... But serious this was a great thread and worth a re-look at.

Doheny
04-11-2010, 3:04 PM
Dooooh Doheny... But serious this was a great thread and worth a re-look at.

Yeah, just poking fun.

I have gone back and read this thread more than once. Good read and good work by those involved, including Stan.

Bray556
04-13-2010, 4:03 PM
No, but you are for posting on a three month old thread.

:chris:

I realize this. Just heard the story from another thread... Funny stuff. I sold that Stag lower to that guy back in October or something. Nice dude.