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View Full Version : I don't have a car. How do I show my neighbor my new gun?


Cbr1000Rider
12-17-2009, 3:16 PM
Hey everyone. So I know I am a new poster but if any one can help affirm or clarify for me this issue I would appreciate it. Ok so I do have a car.. but if some one did not then they should worry. Here is a breakdown for any one that is concerned with how to carry a handgun without a vehicle or CCW. Because you basically can't unless you are within 12026.2 or carrying directly to or from your vehicle for any lawful purpose.

So here is the beginning of a list of LUCC scenerios that are illegal under current CA law (including 626.9):

1. A citizen with out a car who would like to travel to his neighbors house to show him his shiny new glock.. out of luck.
2. A citizen who just bought a gun at their local gun shop, yet the shop and the public parking is within 1000 feet of a school zone. He can not leave that private property and walk to his car located in the parking lot with out the school superintendent permission.
3. A citizen who wants to LUCC on BLM land while just exploring the forest, not camping or hunting. (LUCC during camping is allowed per 12026.2).
4. A citizen who wants to target shoot on BLM land (12026.2 only allows "going" to a target range that is a registered target range business)

I don't believe I am overlooking anything in the law. Please point out if I am.

12025 states..

A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:

(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

12026 states..

Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen...who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident

12026.1 states..

Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen when...
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.

12026.2 states..

(a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:

(a bunch of scenerios that do not include many things)

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.2.html

elrcastor
12-17-2009, 3:22 PM
It's my understanding that if it's in a lock container you can transport it wherever you want.

glockman19
12-17-2009, 3:24 PM
It's my understanding that if it's in a lock container you can transport it wherever you want.

This is my understanding too. Of course, it would also have to be unloaded while in the locked container.

wildhawker
12-17-2009, 3:25 PM
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transporting

Cbr1000Rider
12-17-2009, 3:26 PM
This is my understanding too. Of course, it would also have to be unloaded while in the locked container.

Yah it was my understanding too until I read the law line by line. no where does it allow for one to perform the above scenerios. The gun shop parking lot could of course be private property which would exempt that.. although the others are illegal.

wildhawker
12-17-2009, 3:28 PM
Yah it was my understanding too until I read the law line by line. no where does it allow for one to perform the above scenerios. The gun shop parking lot could of course be private property which would exempt that.. although the others are illegal.

Please review the link I posted above.

Do note that a CGNer was recently convicted in LACO in spite of the private property exemption.

Cbr1000Rider
12-17-2009, 3:33 PM
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transporting


Thank you for this post. It actually cleared some things up instead of just complaining. Now, can some one please explain this for me a little more.. what constitutes as authorized locations?

(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locationsas are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.

Barbarossa
12-17-2009, 3:36 PM
If you are Locked, unloaded, CC does this pass the sniff test? (yeah I know not this again...) [RE: Authorized places]

Home to vehicle.
Drive.
Vehicle to work.
Work to Vehicle.
Drive.
Vehicle to eatery.
Eatery to vehicle.
Drive.
Vehicle to work.
Work to Vehicle.
[Drive.
Vehicle to eatery.
Eatery to vehicle.]
Drive.
Vehicle to Home.

Kestryll
12-17-2009, 3:51 PM
Oh good lawd ... not this again.

Another instant internet lawyer ... just what we need.

Might it have occurred to you that there may be some actual lawyers on this site, who might have actually argued/won cases before real courts, whom you might have asked of first before spouting you opinion based upon very little research?

Seriously, friend. This road has been tread many, many times.

Life lesson for you: Don't put on the nose and then complain when someone treats you like a clown.


Good suggestion CLOWN, this place exists to EDUCATE, remember???

Now, KNOCK OFF THE SMARTASSED CRAP OR GET OUT!

Plain enough for you?

6172crew
12-17-2009, 3:52 PM
Kest beat me too it.:chris:

paul0660
12-17-2009, 3:52 PM
subdivision 12026.2(a):

(a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
(1) The possession of a firearm by an authorized participant in a
motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment
event when the participant lawfully uses the firearm as part of that
production or event or while going directly to, or coming directly
from, that production or event.
(2) The possession of a firearm in a locked container by a member
of any club or organization, organized for the purpose of lawfully
collecting and lawfully displaying pistols, revolvers, or other
firearms, while the member is at meetings of the clubs or
organizations or while going directly to, and coming directly from,
those meetings.
(3) The transportation of a firearm by a participant when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a recognized safety or hunter
safety class, or a recognized sporting event involving that firearm.

(4) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 directly between any of the places mentioned in Section 12026.

(5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or
private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or
the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.
(6) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section
12026 when going directly from the place where that person lawfully
received that firearm to that person's place of residence or place of
business or to private property owned or lawfully possessed by that
person.
(7) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show, swap meet, or
similar event to which the public is invited, for the purpose of
displaying that firearm in a lawful manner.
(8) The transportation of a firearm by an authorized employee or
agent of a supplier of firearms when going directly to, or coming
directly from, a motion picture, television, or video production or
entertainment event for the purpose of providing that firearm to an
authorized participant to lawfully use as a part of that production
or event.
(9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a
regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing
shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.
(10) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a place designated by a person
authorized to issue licenses pursuant to Section 12050 when done at
the request of the issuing agency so that the issuing agency can
determine whether or not a license should be issued to that person to
carry that firearm.
(11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for
the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal
protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be
construed to override the statutory authority granted to the
Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local
governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing
the administration of parks and campgrounds.
(12) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with subdivision (c) or (i) of Section 12078 as it pertains to
that firearm.
(13) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
utilize subdivision (l) of Section 12078 as it pertains to that
firearm.
(14) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show or event, as defined
in Section 478.100 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations,
for the purpose of lawfully transferring, selling, or loaning that
firearm in accordance with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.
(15) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
utilize paragraph (6) of subdivision (a) of Section 12078 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(16) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the
firearm in order to comply with Article 1 (commencing with Section
2080) of Chapter 4 of Division 3 of the Civil Code as it pertains to
that firearm and if that firearm is being transported to a law
enforcement agency, the person gives prior notice to the law
enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to the
law enforcement agency.
(17) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(18) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the
firearm and is transporting it to a law enforcement agency for
disposition according to law, if he or she gives prior notice to the
law enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to
the law enforcement agency for disposition according to law.
(19) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to
comply with paragraph (3) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it
pertains to that firearm.
(20) The transportation of a firearm by a person for the purpose
of obtaining an identification number or mark assigned for that
firearm from the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12092.


Here is the big deal: 12026.1 applies to CITIZENS, 12026.2 to "a person". Citizens have the right to carry a properly stored handgun in a car anywhere it is not otherwise prohibited (military base for example). You can indeed throw the locked up wheelgun in the Winnebago and go camping, if you are a citizen. If you are not a citizen, you may only transport the gun in the exceptions in 12026.2 (a).

As the OP pointed out, you are out of luck, in most cases, without a car.

I hope no one shot dansgold's dog and made him so..........moody.

Cbr1000Rider
12-17-2009, 3:57 PM
subdivision 12026.2(a):



Here is the big deal: 12026.1 applies to CITIZENS, 12026.2 to "a person". Citizens have the right to carry a properly stored handgun in a car anywhere it is not otherwise prohibited (military base for example). You can indeed throw the locked up wheelgun in the Winnebago and go camping, if you are a citizen. If you are not a citizen, you may only transport the gun in the exceptions in 12026.2 (a).

As the OP pointed out, you are out of luck, in most cases, without a car.

I hope no one shot dansgold's dog and made him so..........moody.

Thanks for the help. Still if someone could answer the bolded part below. It would seem this part of 12062.2 could let me carry without a car to "authorized locations"? What is that supposed to exactly mean?

(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.

paul0660
12-17-2009, 4:09 PM
Rider, since 12026.2 does not mention vehicles, other than the usual reference to gloveboxes and utility compartments at the very end, I do believe you can walk (or bike) to and from the listed exemptions without deviations. It sounds like you CANNOT walk across the street to show off your new pistol, however, since that is not one of the exceptions.

wildhawker
12-17-2009, 4:12 PM
For legal advice you'd be wise to seek counsel with an attorney.

However, if you'll read through this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=163061&highlight=LUCC) I'm sure you'll it useful.

Timberwolf
12-17-2009, 4:13 PM
Why not just ask your neighbor to come over?

Flopper
12-17-2009, 4:15 PM
Thanks for the help. Still if someone could answer the bolded part below. It would seem this part of 12062.2 could let me carry without a car to "authorized locations"? What is that supposed to exactly mean?

(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.

I'm pretty sure this post just missed Paul's answer, but check post #12.

Flopper
12-17-2009, 4:22 PM
Rider, since 12026.2 does not mention vehicles, other than the usual reference to gloveboxes and utility compartments at the very end, I do believe you can walk (or bike) to and from the listed exemptions without deviations. It sounds like you CANNOT walk across the street to show off your new pistol, however, since that is not one of the exceptions.

Could this not apply?

(5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or
private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or
the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.

In the extremely unlikely event that you are stopped and detained and legally searched, transporting it to your neighbor in order for him to repair, loan, or inspect if for a possible sale is not unreasonable.

dansgold
12-17-2009, 4:22 PM
Good suggestion CLOWN, this place exists to EDUCATE, remember???

Now, KNOCK OFF THE SMARTASSED CRAP OR GET OUT!

Plain enough for you?
Plain as day.

I and my donations have left the building. Please delete my account accordingly.

Cbr1000Rider
12-17-2009, 4:23 PM
I'm pretty sure this post just missed Paul's answer, but check post #12.

Oh ok I read it wrong.. for it to be exempted under (a). I read it as being completely separate from (a), and just being an addition, not a criterion for (a) to be true. Got it, thanks guys. Been racking my brain on this one all day. Still can't believe 12062.2 are the only instances you may walk your LUCC firearm... blows my mind. Thanks again.

tombinghamthegreat
12-17-2009, 4:30 PM
Is this a handgun or long gun. If it is a long gun then this would not apply. If it is a handgun one could UOC if there are no school zones that are an issue or have your friend come over to your place? Without a car you are screwed

wildhawker
12-17-2009, 4:33 PM
Why would one UOC for the purposes stated by the OP when simple transport in a locked container would mitigate the risk of an uncomfortable (or worse) encounter?

Is this a handgun or long gun. If it is a long gun then this would not apply. If it is a handgun one could UOC if there are no school zones that are an issue or have your friend come over to your place?

GrizzlyGuy
12-17-2009, 5:08 PM
See Gene's post here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=163061) (that Wildhawker linked) and also his Unlicensed Concealed Carry (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Unlicensed_Concealed_Carry) wiki article. In the post he concludes this:

It looks to me like LCC is legal as long as you are in your car or at a place of private property where you have permission to be with a firearm.

And in the wiki article he says this:

People who are not otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms can carry loaded concealed firearms in homes the own or rent and on any other private property that they "lawfully possess." Lawful possession is generally regarded to include carrying on private property where you have the resident or owner's permission to so carry.


I believe that is based on this concealed carry exemption from 12026.2 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.2.html):

(4)The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section 12026 directly between any of the places mentioned in Section 12026.

And those referenced places are these, from 12026 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.html):

...anywhere within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident...

So per what I think he is saying, you could LUCC to your friend's house because you would possess your friend's property by way of you having his permission to be there.

Gene is probably right, but given Theseus's case and the general anti-gun dingyness in this state, I'd personally be more conservative and restrict 'lawfully possessed property' to property I actually own, lease or rent. So if I were walking over to my friend's house, I'd UOC all the way to minimize my legal risk (assuming there were no school zones).

Kestryll
12-17-2009, 5:22 PM
Plain as day.

I and my donations have left the building. Please delete my account accordingly.

Your call.

It is interesting to see that you'll jump all over someone but when called on it you're out of here.

I guess abiding by the rules is too much to ask.

bigcalidave
12-17-2009, 5:39 PM
That was interesting.

cbn620
12-17-2009, 6:19 PM
I do not believe it would be illegal to put an unloaded handgun into a locking box and carry it next door or across the street to a friend's house. I believe to and from a private property--one that you own, and another that your friend owns and is inviting you to--is legal.

Being that the box is locked, they would need a warrant to search it anyways. That would be my, perhaps uneducated, assumption. I don't see any way they would get into that box unless you were out doing something clearly illegal, like murdering someone.

wildhawker
12-17-2009, 6:38 PM
Ding ding ding.

The 4th and 5th amendments are your friend.

bigtoe416
12-17-2009, 10:06 PM
12026.1 states..

Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen when...
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.


We've been discussing this same thing over at opencarry too: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/35290.html

It should be noted that the law quoted reads "any motor vehicle." I'm sure you can find a motor vehicle to walk to. Then once you're there you can walk from it. Poorly worded law abided by!

WokMaster1
12-18-2009, 7:56 AM
Plain as day.

I and my donations have left the building. Please delete my account accordingly.

Sorry to hear that. You probably do not know but CGN & CGF are 2 different entity altogether. So I'm really sorry you decided to leave CGN (forum-HERE)& stop donating & supporting Calguns Foundation, CA's premier 2A advocate that fights for YOUR gun rights.

GrizzlyGuy
12-18-2009, 8:29 AM
We've been discussing this same thing over at opencarry too: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/35290.html

It should be noted that the law quoted reads "any motor vehicle." I'm sure you can find a motor vehicle to walk to. Then once you're there you can walk from it. Poorly worded law abided by!

I didn't read through that thread, but note that the 12026.1 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html) exemption says "directly to":

The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.

If you were walking directly to a stranger's car parked on the other side of town for the lawful purpose of admiring it, I'm thinking that the DA wouldn't be sympathetic. Then again, 4A and 5A are your best friends (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3371590&posted=1#post3371590) and if properly used, no one would need to know the nature of your excursion, your destination/purpose, etc.

Glock22Fan
12-18-2009, 8:34 AM
Generally speaking - and maybe someone would chime in if I am wrong, I cannot imagine the average LEO caring about the exact circumstances as long as the firearm was unloaded and locked in a reasonable case and you weren't in or trying to enter a sensitive place, such as a court room. I think in fact that there'd be a lot higher hassle factor if you were to follow the poster who advised UOC instead.

Furthermore, as long as the locked case does not scream "gun," you don't blab too much and you don't give reasonable cause for a search, how would the LEO know you even had a firearm?

I've carried a lot of guns in locked cases, sometimes on interstate journeys. Never had a problem, never even talked with a LEO, but if I had, he or she would have happily gone on their way without ever knowing that there was a firearm in the car (or in the case I was carrying). Exception here of course for when I'm carrying concealed and the state in question requires officer notification -- but that hasn't happened yet to me either.

Checked in at a hotel/casino in L.V. recently. I didn't really want to leave my long guns in the car so I asked if they would freak out if I carried them to my room. The clerk freaked out at the very thought of it and told me to leave all firearms in my car. I wanted to ask him if that included the three handguns in the case at my feet, but restrained myself.

rbgaynor
12-18-2009, 9:17 AM
Checked in at a hotel/casino in L.V. recently. I didn't really want to leave my long guns in the car so I asked if they would freak out if I carried them to my room. The clerk freaked out at the very thought of it and told me to leave all firearms in my car. I wanted to ask him if that included the three handguns in the case at my feet, but restrained myself.

When we shot the Nevada State IDPA match outside Vegas last year no one at the hotel even raised an eyebrow as we carried our shooting gear through the casino and up to our rooms. Guess it depends on the hotel. Of course there was a giant Bass Pro Shops attached to the hotel - that probably doesn't hurt.

tombinghamthegreat
12-18-2009, 1:16 PM
4A and 5A are your best friends] and if properly used, no one would need to know the nature of your excursion, your destination/purpose, etc.

That is true and if one where to take a backpack, gym bag, brief case ect. and put a cheap lock(which is a locked container) there should be a non issue. If one is asked about their location do not specify.

Theseus
12-18-2009, 1:37 PM
I didn't read through that thread, but note that the 12026.1 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html) exemption says "directly to":



If you were walking directly to a stranger's car parked on the other side of town for the lawful purpose of admiring it, I'm thinking that the DA wouldn't be sympathetic. Then again, 4A and 5A are your best friends (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3371590&posted=1#post3371590) and if properly used, no one would need to know the nature of your excursion, your destination/purpose, etc.

The problem, as I understand it, is that the burden of proof is on the defendant to prove they were exempt. . . For example. . . I was charged with 626.9. There are numerous exemptions to 626.9, and I would have to provide evidence to the court that I fell under the exemptions of 626.9.

But IANAL.

Decoligny
12-18-2009, 1:47 PM
The problem, as I understand it, is that the burden of proof is on the defendant to prove they were exempt. . . For example. . . I was charged with 626.9. There are numerous exemptions to 626.9, and I would have to be allowed to provide evidence to the court that I fell under the exemptions of 626.9.

But IANAL.

Fixed that for ya.

GrizzlyGuy
12-18-2009, 2:00 PM
The problem, as I understand it, is that the burden of proof is on the defendant to prove they were exempt. . . For example. . . I was charged with 626.9. There are numerous exemptions to 626.9, and I would have to provide evidence to the court that I fell under the exemptions of 626.9.

But IANAL.

IANAL either and you could be right. That may be why my first instinct would be to openly carry the gun to the friend's house. Assuming no school zones exist, no exemptions are needed, since that means of carry (openly) isn't prohibited.

SimpleCountryActuary
12-18-2009, 7:08 PM
When we shot the Nevada State IDPA match outside Vegas last year no one at the hotel even raised an eyebrow as we carried our shooting gear through the casino and up to our rooms. Guess it depends on the hotel. Of course there was a giant Bass Pro Shops attached to the hotel - that probably doesn't hurt.

That's more dangerous to my wallet than if it was attached to a casino. :)

SJgunguy24
12-18-2009, 7:20 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=233025

This might help the OP with some of his questions. I started this thread a while back, I don't drive and sometimes I transport while riding my bicycle.

agent.5
02-09-2010, 10:50 AM
Can "motor vehicle", used in transportation, be a public transportation? like buses or trains?