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View Full Version : why Sheriff's are really against right to carry laws


Saym14
12-16-2009, 1:56 PM
I know a business owner here in LA COunty. he got his CCW. He also donated $30,000 to the Sherrif's re-election fund.
this stinks. :mad:

Glock22Fan
12-16-2009, 3:03 PM
TBJ has a huge list of contributors to Baca's campaigns, many of whom also have a CCW.

You have to be rich and/or famous to have a life worth protecting. (urghh!)

yellowfin
12-16-2009, 3:06 PM
The difference between that and bribery is merely a technicality, one that should be made to lapse.

maddoggie13
12-16-2009, 3:19 PM
This sounds like a law suit waiting to happen....pay to play. If you have the data, a good NRA law should look at this.

Glock22Fan
12-16-2009, 3:47 PM
This sounds like a law suit waiting to happen....pay to play. If you have the data, a good NRA law should look at this.

Two reasons:

One is that one needs an aggrieved party, a party with "standing." Such a party would need to be bombproof and have a bombproof Good Cause. Furthermore, such a party and their Good Cause would have to gel with someone already issued a CCW for virtually identical Good Cause. So far, no volunteer has come forward who might qualify despite lots of limelight on the issue.

Second is that the forensic research on a department like this would be lengthy and expensive.

TBJ's approach, which has fitted in with the applicants coming forward, has been to pick off the smaller departments first. Even those with only single or double figures of CCW's take a year or more of research.

Whittling away at it will get there eventually. Of course, it is possible that this approach will be overtaken by the Sykes approach. TBJ is not an alternative "either/or" approach but a complementary one.

stormy_clothing
12-16-2009, 3:50 PM
to bad theres no pay to get a suppressor license. id love to go to the range on off days with no ear muffs

hkusp9c
12-16-2009, 4:00 PM
oh wow I wish I had $30k to waste/burn on some sherrif's re-election.

Billy Jack
12-16-2009, 5:23 PM
I do not know the source of saym14's information and I loath word of mouth or what I call when I teach, 'My buddy said', but there is no legal way anyone can give $30,000 to a Sheriff's re-election campaign. Perhaps he was pulling your leg. I audited Baca's campaign files 2 years ago and no one gave more than the maximum $5000.00 during the statutory period allowed.

If you want to 'share' via PM I can tell you if your 'friend' is pulling your chain.
Right now I vote for chain pulling.

Billy Jack

Kharn
12-16-2009, 6:15 PM
You would practically need a signed letter from a sheriff on his department letterhead stating $X donation for CCW, $Y donation for reserve deputy status to get traction.

M. Sage
12-16-2009, 6:19 PM
I know a business owner here in LA COunty. he got his CCW. He also donated $30,000 to the Sherrif's re-election fund.
this stinks. :mad:

And somehow, these goons haven't been thrown in Federal prison. How exactly does that work?

demnogis
12-16-2009, 7:06 PM
Maybe Sheriff Baca did it like most other political hacks in office...

1) Set up non-profit org
2) Receive donations
3) Profit!!!

I do not know the source of saym14's information and I loath word of mouth or what I call when I teach, 'My buddy said', but there is no legal way anyone can give $30,000 to a Sheriff's re-election campaign. Perhaps he was pulling your leg. I audited Baca's campaign files 2 years ago and no one gave more than the maximum $5000.00 during the statutory period allowed.

If you want to 'share' via PM I can tell you if your 'friend' is pulling your chain.
Right now I vote for chain pulling.

Billy Jack

Creeping Incrementalism
12-16-2009, 7:45 PM
I do not know the source of saym14's information and I loath word of mouth or what I call when I teach, 'My buddy said', but there is no legal way anyone can give $30,000 to a Sheriff's re-election campaign. Perhaps he was pulling your leg. I audited Baca's campaign files 2 years ago and no one gave more than the maximum $5000.00 during the statutory period allowed.

Donating to the Sheriff's charity is how someone pays the big bucks for the CCW. At least, that's what the Contra Costa Times said regarding that Asian guy killed in the home invasion shooting about five or ten years ago. The paper wrote about it in a tone like it was common knowledge. Orange County could be the same.

Maybe the OP's friend meant 5k to the re-election fund and 25k to the charity.

GuyW
12-16-2009, 8:09 PM
there is no legal way anyone can give $30,000 to a Sheriff's re-election campaign.

Yeah - but his wife, kids, uncle etc etc can each "independently" give $5k, for a $30k "bundled" total....

.

Paladin
12-16-2009, 9:03 PM
Yeah - but his wife, kids, uncle etc etc can each "independently" give $5k, for a $30k "bundled" total....

.
Bingo!

Or the applicant hosts a dinner party for their rich friends where the candidate speaks and then the applicant & friends together contribute a total of $30k for the candidate.

But I'm just speculating . . . . :rolleyes:

CCWFacts
12-16-2009, 9:15 PM
I know a business owner here in LA COunty. he got his CCW. He also donated $30,000 to the Sherrif's re-election fund.
this stinks. :mad:

He couldn't have donated $30,000 directly. Maybe he got friends or family to donate it. Some people also do it by shuffling it through other companies etc. Not legal but it happens a lot.

And yeah, that's the main reason why sheriffs love our may-issue law so much. Absolutely nothing to do with any public safety issues.

Hunt
12-16-2009, 9:36 PM
He couldn't have donated $30,000 directly. Maybe he got friends or family to donate it. Some people also do it by shuffling it through other companies etc. Not legal but it happens a lot.

And yeah, that's the main reason why sheriffs love our may-issue law so much. Absolutely nothing to do with any public safety issues.

hmmmm upon further reflection one can observe the criminality of these activities.

Saym14
12-17-2009, 12:38 AM
Yeah - but his wife, kids, uncle etc etc can each "independently" give $5k, for a $30k "bundled" total....

.

yes - there are ways around the laws as we all know, dinner parties, or having 6 family members all contribute. this was about 7 ot 8 years ago, who was Sherrif then? did I mention Baca?, no?

Mssr. Eleganté
12-17-2009, 12:46 AM
...this was about 7 ot 8 years ago, who was Sherrif then? did I mention Baca?, no?

Lee Baca has been LA County Sheriff for the past 11 years.

gotgunz
12-17-2009, 12:52 AM
:TFH::TFH:

Sgt Raven
12-17-2009, 9:54 AM
:TFH:
I see your :TFH: and raise you :troll::troll::troll: and how much did you donate to get your CCW? :p

Billy Jack
12-17-2009, 10:45 AM
What I am reading is speculation that contributors are committing felonies and working in concert with others are engaging in a conspiracy to commit a felony.

As memory serves me those are pretty serious white collar felonies. Maybe someone should contact the FBI or US Attorney with your 'proof' and they can initiate a RICO investigation.

Or, someone with 'stones' and GC applies to one of these horribly corrupt departments and then uses the Discovery process to uncover these most serious crimes.

Or you can just post about your suspicions and make the corrupt law enforcement officials smile.

Gee, which one should we do Steve? Steve...........?

Billy Jack

FeuerFrei
12-17-2009, 10:47 AM
Law enforcement is interested in job security like anybody else.
If crime goes down..."more CCW issued"...then budgets go down and jobs go away.
Law enforcement is a political and money driven business.
Most the money comes from the state/fed govt and the cash from the citizens "contribute" through taxes/tickets.
Why won't the LE community teach CCW to a cop standard for John Q Public? Hmmm. If LE got behind CCW then crime would go way down and firearm safety would be better for all.
If you live in a CCW friendly county then get one now. Even if you won't carry every day. Exorcise your rights!
Here endith the rant.

eltee
12-17-2009, 11:16 AM
The pay to play phenomenon is decades old, maybe longer. It isn't always as opaque as a traceable contribution to a campaign, or providing services (printing, airtime) or support (people to work the phones, walk precincts). Many sheriff's departments have quasi official subdivisions that cater to the rich and famous. They are organized as Sheriff's Air Squadrons, Sheriff's Posses, incorporated "friends of the Sheriff groups such as "Deputies, Inc."

Now, average folks do not own airplanes or horses, they are generally owned by the well to do (yes, there are exceptions).

Members of these groups support the goals and mission of the sheriff's department by providing goods, services and funding. Department brass needs a lift to a convention, the "Air Squadron" may provide a private jet or prop plane for transportation...how much is that worth? Sheriff wants to build a new gymnasium, maybe the well heeled members of the "Posse" will supply the materials and labor. Re-election time may find members of one of the auxiliary units going door to door handing out fliers or working phone banks...and if a member owns a print shop the fliers are donated.

Members of these organizations often get ID cards and badges, coupled with a CCW or simply the right to pack as an "auxiliary LEO" or level III reserve status. Many of their ID's say "Special Deputy" or "Special Police." Many of the members perform no actual law enforcement duties, many have no law enforcement (reserve or otherwise) training.

Contra Costa County had a big "Deputies, Incorporated" investigation by the Ca. Dept. of Justice / A.G. in the 70's or 80's.

Anyway, the handing out of badges, ID, deputizations, special officer appointments, CCW's, etc. to those who support the sheriff has been a practice since the days of wooden sidewalks and and "real" posses.

Hunt
12-17-2009, 12:27 PM
The pay to play phenomenon is decades old, maybe longer. It isn't always as opaque as a traceable contribution to a campaign, or providing services (printing, airtime) or support (people to work the phones, walk precincts). Many sheriff's departments have quasi official subdivisions that cater to the rich and famous. They are organized as Sheriff's Air Squadrons, Sheriff's Posses, incorporated "friends of the Sheriff groups such as "Deputies, Inc."

Now, average folks do not own airplanes or horses, they are generally owned by the well to do (yes, there are exceptions).

Members of these groups support the goals and mission of the sheriff's department by providing goods, services and funding. Department brass needs a lift to a convention, the "Air Squadron" may provide a private jet or prop plane for transportation...how much is that worth? Sheriff wants to build a new gymnasium, maybe the well heeled members of the "Posse" will supply the materials and labor. Re-election time may find members of one of the auxiliary units going door to door handing out fliers or working phone banks...and if a member owns a print shop the fliers are donated.

Members of these organizations often get ID cards and badges, coupled with a CCW or simply the right to pack as an "auxiliary LEO" or level III reserve status. Many of their ID's say "Special Deputy" or "Special Police." Many of the members perform no actual law enforcement duties, many have no law enforcement (reserve or otherwise) training.

Contra Costa County had a big "Deputies, Incorporated" investigation by the Ca. Dept. of Justice / A.G. in the 70's or 80's.

Anyway, the handing out of badges, ID, deputizations, special officer appointments, CCW's, etc. to those who support the sheriff has been a practice since the days of wooden sidewalks and and "real" posses.

all sounds unconstitutional to me

Sgt Raven
12-17-2009, 12:35 PM
all sounds unconstitutional to me

But it comes under the 'Golden Rule', he who has the Gold makes the Rules. :p

Glock22Fan
12-17-2009, 1:19 PM
all sounds unconstitutional to me

And that is why (and how) we are fighting it.

LiberalGunner
12-17-2009, 9:03 PM
Sheriffs are against the right to carry laws because they are simply carrying out the will of the state in which they serve...california. Unfortunately for those who want to pack, we live in a state that feels there must be a just cause before your allowed to take your 40 to walmart tucked under your leather vest. The sheriffs in california serve at the will of the governor and unfortunately for the republicans who elected him, he's not pro carry.

Paladin
12-17-2009, 9:09 PM
What I am reading is speculation that contributors are committing felonies and working in concert with others are engaging in a conspiracy to commit a felony.

As memory serves me those are pretty serious white collar felonies. Maybe someone should contact the FBI or US Attorney with your 'proof' and they can initiate a RICO investigation.

Or, someone with 'stones' and GC applies to one of these horribly corrupt departments and then uses the Discovery process to uncover these most serious crimes.

Or you can just post about your suspicions and make the corrupt law enforcement officials smile.

Gee, which one should we do Steve? Steve...........?

Billy JackOnly speaking for my own hypothetical, but where's the felony? Where's the conspiracy to commit a felony?

I only speculate that a wealthy resident hosts a dinner party for a bunch of friends to introduce the sheriff-candidate to them and to hear him explain what he has done/plans to do for the county. The guests may then choose to contribute their own money to the candidate's campaign. Host a party of 20 even moderately wealthy friends and pulling in $30k for that candidate should be no problem.

I did not say the guests eventually get or even care about CCWs. I did not say that the host is distributing to his "guests" his own $30k that they then contribute and claim to be their own money.

No, just a bunch of wealthy friends getting together and supporting a candidate that their friend, the host, obviously supports. Maybe the guests will just assume that, informally, the wealthy host may scratch their backs in the future for them going out of the way, for whatever reason, to support his candidate. No actual knowledge by the guests of any favors being sought, much less being bought, by the host from the sheriff. No, the host is just being a good citizen doing his civic duty by being an active participant in local government politics.

Frankly, the host probably deserves a medal -- or maybe just a badge -- to go along w/his CCW. :D

Gunm
12-17-2009, 9:32 PM
No, just a bunch of wealthy friends getting together and supporting a candidate that their friend, the host, obviously supports.Or possibly a businessman whose minimum-wage employees all contribute $5,000 each to support a candidate. Nope, nothing wrong there. :rolleyes:

M. Sage
12-17-2009, 9:38 PM
Sheriffs are against the right to carry laws because they are simply carrying out the will of the state in which they serve...california. Unfortunately for those who want to pack, we live in a state that feels there must be a just cause before your allowed to take your 40 to walmart tucked under your leather vest. The sheriffs in california serve at the will of the governor and unfortunately for the republicans who elected him, he's not pro carry.

Wrong on so many points.

First, a sheriff needs to realize his importance in the scheme of law enforcement. He's the highest LE official in the nation. What other CLEO gets elected? They are sworn to uphold the Constitution, not some nebulous "will of the state." They do not serve the state (or they shouldn't), they are to serve the people in their county. They certainly do not serve at the will of the governor. Do you know how the government of your state is structured? The governor has zip to do with how a person becomes a sheriff.

Second, the will of the state is obviously spelled out in the law, stating that those with "good cause" can be issued licenses. Now if you want to go with the reason behind that law, they would issue to whites and reject blacks, hispanics and asians out of hand, because those are the classes that this law was written to deny.

Why are you making excuses for corrupt politicians?

LiberalGunner
12-17-2009, 9:53 PM
I asked San Diego Sheriff Bill Gore about the accusation that some Calgunners like to hurl around...namely that CCW permits are basically for sale to the highest bidder. First of all, I think it's offensive to make those comments off the cuff. I've lived in several California counties with restrictive CCW laws but belief the sheriffs to be stand-up individuals and wouldn't hurl a bribery accusation at them. What Sheriff Gore said is that he's simply enforcing the will of our state legislature. Political contributions in San Diego are capped at $500 and he was specific to say he wouldn't sell his ethics down the river for that. So we've only got 1,500 CCW's in San Diego...similar number in the OC. But I'll bet if any of you had the courage to look at the numbers in those numbers, you'd find a lot of regular people with true "good causes" given permission to carry, not the bunch of fat cat contributors that you conspiracy theorists like to toss around.

GuyW
12-17-2009, 10:01 PM
The sheriffs in california serve at the will of the governor

Say what??

Are you this informed on all topics??
.

dustoff31
12-17-2009, 10:03 PM
What Sheriff Gore said is that he's simply enforcing the will of our state legislature.

And that right there is a huge problem.

A Sheriff is not elected by the legislature. He doesn't work for the legislature. He did not swear an oath to support and defend the legislature.

GuyW
12-17-2009, 10:08 PM
And that right there is a huge problem.

A Sheriff is not elected by the legislature. He doesn't work for the legislature. He did not swear an oath to support and defend the legislature.

Gore did - and he'll shoot your wife in the head to prove it....
.

dustoff31
12-17-2009, 10:21 PM
Gore did - and he'll shoot your wife in the head to prove it....
.

Well yes, except he didn't have the stones to do it himself. So he told another person who likewise didn't understand those things, to do it for him.

CCWFacts
12-17-2009, 10:40 PM
yes - there are ways around the laws as we all know, dinner parties, or having 6 family members all contribute. this was about 7 ot 8 years ago, who was Sherrif then? did I mention Baca?, no?

I remember some incident in SF where some local Democratic party machine candidate was getting big contributions from bus boys, dish washers, gardeners, etc, who all worked for one particular businessman. And the guy's family members also all donated the max. It was blindingly obvious what was happening but it's nearly impossible to prosecute stuff like that. How do you document where a busboy got $500? You can't.

I asked San Diego Sheriff Bill Gore about the accusation that some Calgunners like to hurl around...namely that CCW permits are basically for sale to the highest bidder. First of all, I think it's offensive to make those comments off the cuff. I've lived in several California counties with restrictive CCW laws but belief the sheriffs to be stand-up individuals and wouldn't hurl a bribery accusation at them.

Stand-up individuals? (Insert Beavis and B-tthead laugh here.)

I would say that all of California's highly-restrictive urban sheriffs are crooks, who take substantial bribes based on their CCW programs. Some of these bribes are just plain old direct bribes (how many California sheriffs have been indicted in the past 10 years?). Most of them, however, are complex donations through various layers and channels, which are quite substantial but function almost the same as bribes.

What Sheriff Gore said is that he's simply enforcing the will of our state legislature.

These guys are good at lying, and you fell for it. He's enforcing his own power base and income and that's all.

Political contributions in San Diego are capped at $500 and he was specific to say he wouldn't sell his ethics down the river for that.

Of course not. Ethics go for a lot more than $500 in this state. Dinner and drinks goes for $500 around here.

$500 will make no difference in CCW issuance. If you want to get a CCW in LA you need to host a "dinner" for 100 of your closest friends who each donate $1000, for example. That will get a CCW. Also if you're a "rabbi" at a big temple, or a well-connected Armenian, or a high-level Scientologist or that kind of thing... you can get a CCW from that.

So we've only got 1,500 CCW's in San Diego...similar number in the OC. But I'll bet if any of you had the courage to look at the numbers in those numbers, you'd find a lot of regular people with true "good causes" given permission to carry, not the bunch of fat cat contributors that you conspiracy theorists like to toss around.

Yeah, of those 1,500 probably quite a few of them are regular people who have jewelry shops and so on. I had a friend in SD who had a permit a few years ago because he testified against someone or something like that, and he was just a regular guy. But the bulk of that list are various local VIPs and contributors, and certain local government staff members.

It's a very corrupt and rotten system, run by crooks.

The criminal conviction rate among California sheriffs is a lot higher than the rate of Californians in general; that's objective evidence that many of them are criminals.

gotgunz
12-17-2009, 11:06 PM
I see your :TFH: and raise you :troll::troll::troll: and how much did you donate to get your CCW? :p

I am folding as your bet of 3 trolls makes me think you actually have something (or what I have is not worth 3 trolls to me).



and how much did you donate to get your CCW? :p

The 'donation' breakdown is as follows:

Initial application with live scan - $120.00 payable to the sheriff's dept.
Required class for ccw - $65.00 payable to the local J.C.

Renewal fees every 2 years - $60.00 payable to the sheriff's dept.

Received in return? A very nice, unrestricted CCW and a "thank you".

Next?

M. Sage
12-17-2009, 11:59 PM
CCWFacts beat me to the punch.

There are counties where the process isn't completely screwed up. They either don't issue any permits or issue to almost everybody who applies. But there definitely are sheriffs out there that are selling permits.