PDA

View Full Version : Newbie: Resident of CA but going to NV Gunshow


ajtat411
12-15-2009, 9:47 AM
Hi, I'm new to these forums and just bought my first handgun, Beretta 92FS and in the 10 waiting period.:mad:

I'm heading to the gunshow in Las Vegas this weekend and wanted to know what I should expect in Nevada gunshows.

Would it be legal to purchase another handgun or rifle (Ruger 10/22) at the gunshow and bring it back to CA barring that it has 10 rd mags? Nevada doesn't have a 10 day wait period right?

TIA

mossy
12-15-2009, 9:50 AM
Hi, I'm new to these forums and just bought my first handgun, Beretta 92FS and in the 10 waiting period.:mad:

I'm heading to the gunshow in Las Vegas this weekend and wanted to know what I should expect in Nevada gunshows.

Would it be legal to purchase another handgun or rifle (Ruger 10/22) at the gunshow and bring it back to CA barring that it has 10 rd mags? Nevada doesn't have a 10 day wait period right?

TIA

no you cant buy a rifle in another state and bring it back here. i am sure someone here can explain the laws better.

Sheepdog1968
12-15-2009, 9:53 AM
I doubt you can do this. Sounds like it is illegal.

ajtat411
12-15-2009, 9:56 AM
I doubt you can do this. Sounds like it is illegal.

I'm not trying to break the law, just want to figure out what I can legally do with my trip to Vegas. My friend was under the impression that we could buy guns in NV and bring them back, just wanted to double check.

munkeeboi
12-15-2009, 9:58 AM
You cannot buy and take with you, but with a cooperating seller, have them send it to your ffl in CA.

emc002
12-15-2009, 10:00 AM
Sure, but they'd have to ship it to an FFL in CA for you to complete the paperwork.

Not sure about a C&R or 03FFL exemption though. I think you just have to file something with DOJ when you bring the C&R longgun back into CA? Somebody who knows will chime in here I'm sure.

ajtat411
12-15-2009, 10:00 AM
You cannot buy and take with you, but with a cooperating seller, have them send it to your ffl in CA.

Nice! At least I have an option of buying and not just drooling.:D

GrizzlyGuy
12-15-2009, 10:03 AM
See here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3453934).

ajtat411
12-15-2009, 10:14 AM
See here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3453934).

Just read through it and it sounds like it's legal to buy a long rifle (Ruger 10/22)/shotgun legal in CA and doing a FFL transfer/DROS and taking it back to CA without waiting. Handguns on the other hand is not possible without waiting 10 days and sending to CA FFL dealer.

Thanks for the quick response guys! Calguns.net is my new favorite forum!

munkeeboi
12-15-2009, 10:38 AM
No no no. As a CA resident you cannot buy any firearm longgun or handgun in any other state and take possession (c&r possibly, not sure cuz I don't have one). You would find this out anyways once you tried to purchase something and they ask for your ID. As a Ca resident all paperwork must be done in a Ca FFL ( c&r excluded once again)

Glock22Fan
12-15-2009, 10:57 AM
Federal law:

1) you cannot buy handguns in a state that you are not resident in.
2) You can only buy long guns (in another state) if the firearms dealer obeys the laws and procedures of both states.

As the out of state firearm dealer cannot DROS the firearm as required by Californian law, you cannot buy long guns either.

However, as said, you can buy if the OOS dealer is willing to ship to a California FFL. However, the OOS FFL will charge shipping and the Ca FFL will charge a fee for this, plus Ca taxes on the whole deal, and you could end up spending more than it is worth - not to mention the hassle.

If you decide to go this route, have your local FFL's agreement in advance and get his name, address and FFL # (I think that's all you need) written down to give to the OOS dealer.

Cokebottle
12-15-2009, 11:03 AM
Also keep the handgun roster in mind.
Long guns would not be a problem to purchase with an FFL willing to ship to your local FFL, but a handgun could be a problem because of the roster.

The seller may not have access to a current California Safe Handgun Roster. If he sells a handgun to you that is not on the roster, it would be rejected by your receiving FFL and you would have to seek a refund (less shipping, etc...).

So while the Ruger 10/22 would not be a problem, I would certainly not recommend purchasing a handgun from an out of state supplier unless you have verified the exact make and model on the roster:
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

ajtat411
12-15-2009, 11:03 AM
Federal law:

1) you cannot buy handguns in a state that you are not resident in.
2) You can only buy long guns (in another state) if the firearms dealer obeys the laws and procedures of both states.

As the out of state firearm dealer cannot DROS the firearm as required by Californian law, you cannot buy long guns either.

However, as said, you can buy if the OOS dealer is willing to ship to a California FFL. However, the OOS FFL will charge shipping and the Ca FFL will charge a fee for this, plus Ca taxes on the whole deal, and you could end up spending more than it is worth - not to mention the hassle.

OMFG, I hate CA gun laws!!!!

I guess the gunshow is going to just be a big tease, just like the stripclubs.

Thanks for the clarification guys.

Now, buying ammo shouldn't be a problem right, as long as it's not HP or illegal in CA.

sniper5
12-15-2009, 11:05 AM
As far as C&R you can buy the C & R longguns (as long as they don't violate any other laws like assault rifle or >10 round mags, etc) and bring them back with you. The C & R handguns you can buy over the counter with a C&R and bring them back (same issues as above, no assault weapons or >10 round mags, etc) and then you have, I think it's 10 days, have to look it up, to file a form regarding importation of a previously owned firearm with the DOJ and pay $19. As far as modern stuff, arrange transfer through an FFL in California (I would set this up in advance before leaving, would have to be roster compliant) and go that route. As far as cash and carry for non C & R stuff? NO!

ajtat411
12-15-2009, 11:11 AM
Federal law:

1) you cannot buy handguns in a state that you are not resident in.
2) You can only buy long guns (in another state) if the firearms dealer obeys the laws and procedures of both states.

As the out of state firearm dealer cannot DROS the firearm as required by Californian law, you cannot buy long guns either.

However, as said, you can buy if the OOS dealer is willing to ship to a California FFL. However, the OOS FFL will charge shipping and the Ca FFL will charge a fee for this, plus Ca taxes on the whole deal, and you could end up spending more than it is worth - not to mention the hassle.

If you decide to go this route, have your local FFL's agreement in advance and get his name, address and FFL # (I think that's all you need) written down to give to the OOS dealer.

Yeah, it probably won't be worth it with all the fee's and shipping unless I get a really good deal.

Also keep the handgun roster in mind.
Long guns would not be a problem to purchase with an FFL willing to ship to your local FFL, but a handgun could be a problem because of the roster.

The seller may not have access to a current California Safe Handgun Roster. If he sells a handgun to you that is not on the roster, it would be rejected by your receiving FFL and you would have to seek a refund (less shipping, etc...).

So while the Ruger 10/22 would not be a problem, I would certainly not recommend purchasing a handgun from an out of state supplier unless you have verified the exact make and model on the roster:
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

Nice tip. Yeah, I've been looking at the roster for the last week since I've bought my handgun. I might have it memorized by now.haha

Glock22Fan
12-15-2009, 11:20 AM
OMFG, I hate CA gun laws!!!!

snip . .

Now, buying ammo shouldn't be a problem right, as long as it's not HP or illegal in CA.

Why do you think that HP is illegal?

Cokebottle
12-15-2009, 11:23 AM
However, as said, you can buy if the OOS dealer is willing to ship to a California FFL. However, the OOS FFL will charge shipping and the Ca FFL will charge a fee for this, plus Ca taxes on the whole deal, and you could end up spending more than it is worth - not to mention the hassle.
Mega ditto.....

Shipping = $20 minimum (handguns must be shipped overnight)
DROS = $25 (you're going to pay this on in or out of state transfers so it's a wash)
Sales tax = You will pay it on an in-state purchase, your FFL may charge it on a transfer, so you may not be saving this on an out of state purchase.
FFL transfer fee = This is where they get you. The transfer fee can be anywhere from $10 to $150. I believe Turners gets $100, though one employee told me $125 (but she wasn't clear if that included DROS or not).
$35-$40 seems to be the low average, particularly for receivers and handguns. Long guns tend to average $45-$65 or so.

So figuring $55 for the FFL fee plus shipping, you're looking at a minimum of $75-$80 over the OTC price compared to a comparable purchase locally. You really have to balance the going rate locally vs what you can get it for out of state (or even online).
You MAY save sales tax buying out of state or online if your FFL doesn't add it in, but legally, you would be required to declare the purchase on your state taxes if the FFL did not add the taxes.

For a $3,000 Les Baer 1911 that you find in Nevada at $2,200? Oh ya... it's absolutely worth it if the model is on the roster.
For a Mossberg 500 Security that you see for $225? Go to Cinco-Grande' and get it for $275.


Breakdown -

Import:
Gun cost
Shipping = $20+ (some vendors offer free shipping for Calguns members)
DROS = $25
FFL Fee = $35-$75
Sales tax (declare on income tax if not paid at FFL)

Local Purchase:
Gun cost
DROS = $25
Sales tax

Cokebottle
12-15-2009, 11:29 AM
Now, buying ammo shouldn't be a problem right, as long as it's not HP or illegal in CA.
FMJ and JHP are legal.
Illegal are AP, Tracer, or incendiary.

Since you're new to California, we'll be nice and even let you reload your own ammo :D


Seriously... California has some of the worst gun laws in the country, but not THE worst. It boils down to the fact that out of 50 states, there are only 5 or 6 that are truly restrictive... and of those, other states have some restrictions that are worse. Example, in California, on a long gun, you can have a bayonet and a threaded barrel. In other states, the bayo lug must be removed or have a spot weld that prevents the mounting of the bayo, and the threaded barrel must be disabled through the permanent installation of a cap or muzzle brake.

ajtat411
12-15-2009, 11:32 AM
Why do you think that HP is illegal?

I thought hollow points were illegal in california? I tried buying from cheaperthandirt and they wouldn't ship to me. Opps my mistake, it says they can ship to CA. Nice!

I might be confusing HP with AP.

Mega ditto.....

Shipping = $20 minimum (handguns must be shipped overnight)
DROS = $25 (you're going to pay this on in or out of state transfers so it's a wash)
Sales tax = You will pay it on an in-state purchase, your FFL may charge it on a transfer, so you may not be saving this on an out of state purchase.
FFL transfer fee = This is where they get you. The transfer fee can be anywhere from $10 to $150. I believe Turners gets $100, though one employee told me $125 (but she wasn't clear if that included DROS or not).
$35-$40 seems to be the low average, particularly for receivers and handguns. Long guns tend to average $45-$65 or so.

So figuring $55 for the FFL fee plus shipping, you're looking at a minimum of $75-$80 over the OTC price compared to a comparable purchase locally. You really have to balance the going rate locally vs what you can get it for out of state (or even online).
You MAY save sales tax buying out of state or online if your FFL doesn't add it in, but legally, you would be required to declare the purchase on your state taxes if the FFL did not add the taxes.

For a $3,000 Les Baer 1911 that you find in Nevada at $2,200? Oh ya... it's absolutely worth it if the model is on the roster.
For a Mossberg 500 Security that you see for $225? Go to Cinco-Grande' and get it for $275.


Breakdown -

Import:
Gun cost
Shipping = $20+ (some vendors offer free shipping for Calguns members)
DROS = $25
FFL Fee = $35-$75
Sales tax (declare on income tax if not paid at FFL)

Local Purchase:
Gun cost
DROS = $25
Sales tax

Nice break down. That's what I went through with my Beretta 92FS.

Bought it online for $570 shipped + CA taxes + $35 DROS +$40 transfer fee so I saved a little money off of MSRP of $650 +CA taxes +35 DROS at the gunshop.

ajtat411
12-15-2009, 11:38 AM
FMJ and JHP are legal.
Illegal are AP, Tracer, or incendiary.

Since you're new to California, we'll be nice and even let you reload your own ammo :D


Seriously... California has some of the worst gun laws in the country, but not THE worst. It boils down to the fact that out of 50 states, there are only 5 or 6 that are truly restrictive... and of those, other states have some restrictions that are worse. Example, in California, on a long gun, you can have a bayonet and a threaded barrel. In other states, the bayo lug must be removed or have a spot weld that prevents the mounting of the bayo, and the threaded barrel must be disabled through the permanent installation of a cap or muzzle brake.

Beat me to it. Yeah, I was thinking about AP bullets.

It's probably because someone got stabbed by a bayo so some righteous congressman proposed a bill to ban bayo's. :rolleyes: Like they say, guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Glock22Fan
12-15-2009, 11:43 AM
Something that is always worth trying. If you get offered a good price out of state, get it in writing and take it to your local dealer. Tell him "I'd prefer to deal with you if you can get near this price." Surprising how many of them can/will make some movement. I'd personally rather pay a few bucks extra to buy locally - keeps the dealers in business.

Indeed, one handgun I bought this way, the dealer showed me the distributor's invoice when I collected the gun. As I remember it, he made nothing on it except that it increased his cashflow slightly, increased his business with the distributor slightly and kept a local customer happy.

ajtat411
12-15-2009, 11:51 AM
Something that is always worth trying. If you get offered a good price out of state, get it in writing and take it to your local dealer. Tell him "I'd prefer to deal with you if you can get near this price." Surprising how many of them can/will make some movement. I'd personally rather pay a few bucks extra to buy locally - keeps the dealers in business.

Indeed, one handgun I bought this way, the dealer showed me the distributor's invoice when I collected the gun. As I remember it, he made nothing on it except that it increased his cashflow slightly, increased his business with the distributor slightly and kept a local customer happy.

I want to support my local gun shop, but some of the prices are ridiculous. I'll have to give this a try.

ke6guj
12-15-2009, 12:10 PM
FMJ and JHP are legal.
Illegal are AP, Tracer, or incendiary.

.

Only AP handgun ammo is illegal. Rifle AP ammo is perfectly legal.

ajtat411
12-15-2009, 12:13 PM
Only AP handgun ammo is illegal. Rifle AP ammo is perfectly legal.

O'really. Didn't know that.

ke6guj
12-15-2009, 12:21 PM
ajtat,

ok, it appears that you need to get up to speed on the firearms laws,

Start here, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/ , then go here, http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/laws/ , and here, http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/regulations/ . Read in full and then report back in a couple weeks. there will be a test :D

ajtat411
12-15-2009, 12:35 PM
ajtat,

ok, it appears that you need to get up to speed on the firearms laws,

Start here, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/ , then go here, http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/laws/ , and here, http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/regulations/ . Read in full and then report back in a couple weeks. there will be a test :D

Holy moly! That's a lot of reading, although some of it wouldn't apply to me. Teargas weapons, boobytraps.haha I'm not that hardcore yet! Just trying to read through one item is giving me a headache. All that text, single spaced. :puke:

I did score 30/30 on my HSC. I know, everyone should.

munkeeboi
12-15-2009, 12:37 PM
Whatever you do....take whatever your local gunstore says with a grain of salt. What you learn here is more important than the "opinions" you get at a store. Depends on the store, of course, but more times than not, the info will be laced with FUD.

Cokebottle
12-15-2009, 12:41 PM
I thought hollow points were illegal in california? I tried buying from cheaperthandirt and they wouldn't ship to me. Opps my mistake, it says they can ship to CA. Nice!

I might be confusing HP with AP.
Probably.

Many vendors won't ship to LA County because of a misunderstanding regarding the LA City ammo bans, and some vendors won't ship to Orange County because there's another Orange County on the east coast that prohibits online sales... but there are no restrictions on JHP.
Bought it online for $570 shipped + CA taxes + $35 DROS +$40 transfer fee so I saved a little money off of MSRP of $650 +CA taxes +35 DROS at the gunshop.
And technically you still got screwed by $10 ;)
DROS is $25. PPT/FTF is $25 plus the FFL is allowed to charge no more than $10 over.
But regardless of how it's listed on the receipt, you basically paid a $50 FFL fee which isn't bad. I've heard of FFLs adding a $10 "paperwork fee" on top of the DROS... it's BS and dishonest. DROS is $25 for any gun anywhere in the state. The FFL is allowed to charge whatever the heck he wants for the FFL fee... the extra $10 tacked onto the DROS is simply a way of advertising a lower FFL fee to bring in customers.

ajtat411
12-15-2009, 12:43 PM
Yeah, another local shop wanted $100 for the transfer (DROS and FFL). I think to discourage from buying online.

Decoligny
12-15-2009, 12:43 PM
Federal law:

1) you cannot buy handguns in a state that you are not resident in.
2) You can only buy long guns (in another state) if the firearms dealer obeys the laws and procedures of both states.

As the out of state firearm dealer cannot DROS the firearm as required by Californian law, you cannot buy long guns either.

However, as said, you can buy if the OOS dealer is willing to ship to a California FFL. However, the OOS FFL will charge shipping and the Ca FFL will charge a fee for this, plus Ca taxes on the whole deal, and you could end up spending more than it is worth - not to mention the hassle.

If you decide to go this route, have your local FFL's agreement in advance and get his name, address and FFL # (I think that's all you need) written down to give to the OOS dealer.

Not 100% true. As a CA resident, I can buy a handgun out of state if I have it shipped to a CA FFL to be DROS'ed and wait 10 days. It of course has to be on the Roster.

Cokebottle
12-15-2009, 12:45 PM
Something that is always worth trying. If you get offered a good price out of state, get it in writing and take it to your local dealer. Tell him "I'd prefer to deal with you if you can get near this price." Surprising how many of them can/will make some movement. I'd personally rather pay a few bucks extra to buy locally - keeps the dealers in business.
I feel the same way. I'll easily pay 10% more to avoid the hassles of ordering and shipping... plus it's always nice to hand over a stack of dead presidents and limit online exposure of the plastic.

Sadly, even the dealers that budge will still look at your price and add their normal FFL fee when giving you a quote... forgetting that you can always use the FFL across town for the transfer (but who maybe doesn't stock Springfield).

ke6guj
12-15-2009, 12:48 PM
Not 100% true. You just have to make sure that the sale is legal in the state of the sale, and that it is also legal in the state of residence.

As a CA resident, I cannot buy a gun out of state unless I have it shipped to a CA FFL and wait 10 days.

Other states however, allow for a resident to purchase out of state, and as long as the laws of both states are upheld, there is no Federal law violation.

Nope, Glock22fan had it correct. No non-licensee may purchase a firearm in another state and bring it back to his home state, with certain exceptions. One is for long gun sales from a licensed dealer, at his licensed premises.



Sec. 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive
in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other
business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm
purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State:
Provided, That the provisions of this section:
(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by
bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of
residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that
State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such
firearm in that State,
(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or
shotgun obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector in a State other than the
transferee's State of residence in an over-the-counter transaction at
the licensee's premises obtained in conformity with the provisions of
Sec. 478.96(c) and
(c) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm
obtained in conformity with the provisions of Sec. Sec. 478.30 and
478.97.

Handgun purchases do not fall under that exemption.


Yes, a person may pay for a firearm in any state and have it shipped to his local FFL to facilitate the transfer, but that is not what Glock22 was talking about.

sreiter
12-16-2009, 12:32 AM
i dont think anyone has mentioned it yet (clearly away). YOU STILL WAIT 10 DAYS dros'ing after gun sent to ffl

ajtat411
12-16-2009, 8:39 AM
i dont think anyone has mentioned it yet (clearly away). YOU STILL WAIT 10 DAYS dros'ing after gun sent to ffl

Yeah, so no matter where you get your gun/rifle from, you're waiting 10 days. :mad:

Glock22Fan
12-16-2009, 9:33 AM
Not 100% true. As a CA resident, I can buy a handgun out of state if I have it shipped to a CA FFL to be DROS'ed and wait 10 days. It of course has to be on the Roster.

Not quite sure where you think I was wrong:

However, as said, you can buy if the OOS dealer is willing to ship to a California FFL

The only thing I can think of is that I didn't explicitly spell out the DROS, ten day wait or roster. But neither did I talk about the lock/safe issue or how you should transport your new firearm home.