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ugimports
12-14-2009, 10:19 PM
I'm asking the below what if's because I know there's a number of FFL01s that sell bullet buttoned rifles. Not sure if they import them that way or do it themselves with an AW permit. Here's some scenarios:

1) Order a Browning shotgun. It arrives in 2 pieces. Logged in as a receiver. I put the 2 pieces together and then list it for sale as shotgun. Have I manufactured?

2) Order a CMMG Lower and CMMG upper. I put the 2 pieces together, add a bullet button, and sell as a rifle. Have I manufactured?

3) Order a complete Noveske AR w/pistol grip and all. I have an AW permit. I install a bullet button and log it out as no longer an AW with my paperwork. Have I manufactured?

I've also noticed a vendor that has added their mark to a Stag AR which I know is part of the manufacturing process/requirements, but the particular vendor I saw markings for seems to only have an FFL01 according to the paperwork I've received from them. Not sure why they did that unless they built up the rifle from parts or perhaps as #2 above.

While I hold an FFL07 right now I haven't done any of the manufacturing steps, but figured I was planning ahead if I were to start selling my own reloads. In any case, I was hoping to get some clarification since my understanding was that for any FFL (even those out of CA) that if they routinely put bullet buttons on firearms, they are indeed manufacturers, but many of them are not from what I can tell from license paperwork. I don't want to deal with ITAR and all the excise tax BS if I ever get an AW permit and am just putting bullet buttons on firearms if I can help it.

Thoughts?

tenpercentfirearms
12-15-2009, 5:33 AM
I'm asking the below what if's because I know there's a number of FFL01s that sell bullet buttoned rifles. Not sure if they import them that way or do it themselves with an AW permit. Here's some scenarios:

1) Order a Browning shotgun. It arrives in 2 pieces. Logged in as a receiver. I put the 2 pieces together and then list it for sale as shotgun. Have I manufactured?

2) Order a CMMG Lower and CMMG upper. I put the 2 pieces together, add a bullet button, and sell as a rifle. Have I manufactured?

3) Order a complete Noveske AR w/pistol grip and all. I have an AW permit. I install a bullet button and log it out as no longer an AW with my paperwork. Have I manufactured?

I've also noticed a vendor that has added their mark to a Stag AR which I know is part of the manufacturing process/requirements, but the particular vendor I saw markings for seems to only have an FFL01 according to the paperwork I've received from them. Not sure why they did that unless they built up the rifle from parts or perhaps as #2 above.

While I hold an FFL07 right now I haven't done any of the manufacturing steps, but figured I was planning ahead if I were to start selling my own reloads. In any case, I was hoping to get some clarification since my understanding was that for any FFL (even those out of CA) that if they routinely put bullet buttons on firearms, they are indeed manufacturers, but many of them are not from what I can tell from license paperwork. I don't want to deal with ITAR and all the excise tax BS if I ever get an AW permit and am just putting bullet buttons on firearms if I can help it.

Thoughts?
I am not an expert, but yes to 1 and 2 and no to 3. Keep asking and doing research though.

OCArmory
12-15-2009, 8:55 AM
I would say no to No. 1 Many rifles come separated in the packaging but they are sold as a complete rifle and the FET has been paid.
No. 2 Yes. If you purchase a separate lower and upper then assemble them I would think that would constitute manufacturing.

When I asked the ATF field rep if installing a bullet button was considered manufacturing they said no.
Might want to check with the DOJ about logging guns in and out as AW's. I was going to apply for my permit but was told that, that would be prohibited.
Mike

ugimports
12-15-2009, 12:43 PM
I'm emailing an ATF Operations Investigator I had contact info for and see if they an provide any clarification on the federal level. I'll then email the CA DOJ and see what kind of response I get.

ke6guj
12-15-2009, 1:02 PM
I would say no to #1 as well, since it was sold as a complete firearm and the FET would have already been paid.

with regard to #2, it depends. IIRC, if you buy a parts kit and a lower from Bushmaster at the same time, they will charge you FET. In that case, it would already be considered a completely manufactured firearm, and just assembling it should not constitute additional manufacturing. But buy the same parts at different times, there probably wouldn't be any FET paid on it, so it could be considered manufacturing to combine the parts into one firearm.

freakshow10mm
12-17-2009, 7:50 AM
I'm asking the below what if's because I know there's a number of FFL01s that sell bullet buttoned rifles. Not sure if they import them that way or do it themselves with an AW permit. Here's some scenarios:

1) Order a Browning shotgun. It arrives in 2 pieces. Logged in as a receiver. I put the 2 pieces together and then list it for sale as shotgun. Have I manufactured?
Yes, no, maybe. Some O/U shotguns are shipped in a small case with barrels and receivers separated. Technically assembling the halves is an act of manufacturing if done before 4473 transfer. I asked my local office about this and they said for broken down O/U shotguns log it in as a shotgun.

2) Order a CMMG Lower and CMMG upper. I put the 2 pieces together, add a bullet button, and sell as a rifle. Have I manufactured?
Yes.

3) Order a complete Noveske AR w/pistol grip and all. I have an AW permit. I install a bullet button and log it out as no longer an AW with my paperwork. Have I manufactured?
No, see the "drop in parts" letter (ATF Ruling 2009-2).

I've also noticed a vendor that has added their mark to a Stag AR which I know is part of the manufacturing process/requirements, but the particular vendor I saw markings for seems to only have an FFL01 according to the paperwork I've received from them. Not sure why they did that unless they built up the rifle from parts or perhaps as #2 above.
Some will have both an 01 FFL and 07 FFL and sell strictly off their 01 FFL. The way their books would work (if buying and building an aggregate of parts) is the A&D book has the receiver being acquired from a source and disposed to the manufacturing log book where the manufacturing is recorded. It would be logged into the A&D book as a receiver, out to the manufacturing book as a rifle. The standard "importer" format for the mfg log book is for disposition to other FFLs. If they are manufacturing for 4473 customers, they use the A&D format (ie run 3 books total).

In this case it seems as though they are logging into their A&D book, disposing to the mfg book, making it, then disposing back to their A&D book and logging it out there as a sale. That is another way of doing it but your A&D book might be confusing to the investigator with so much back and forth stuff.

While I hold an FFL07 right now I haven't done any of the manufacturing steps,

but figured I was planning ahead if I were to start selling my own reloads.
ATF doesn't require any records for ammunition manufacturers, except armor piercing, which you can't do with an 07, only an 06 can make AP.

In any case, I was hoping to get some clarification since my understanding was that for any FFL (even those out of CA) that if they routinely put bullet buttons on firearms, they are indeed manufacturers, but many of them are not from what I can tell from license paperwork.

See ATF Ruling 2009-2:


Any person who installs “drop in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms does not manufacture a firearm, and does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. A “drop in” replacement part is one that can be installed in or on an existing, fully assembled firearm without drilling, cutting, or machining. A replacement part, whether factory original or otherwise, has the same design, function, substantially the same dimensions, and does not otherwise affect the manner in which the weapon expels a projectile by the action of an explosive. Any person who is licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, and who installs “drop in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms as described in this ruling does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Any person who is engaged in the business of installing “drop in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act.

I don't want to deal with ITAR and all the excise tax BS if I ever get an AW permit and am just putting bullet buttons on firearms if I can help it.

Thoughts?
Unfortunately, you are required, as a manufacturer of firearms to register with ITAR. It doesn't matter if you are actually physically manufacturing or not, you are a manufacturing FFL and need to pay up.

A BB is a drop in part and you need to be licensed as a dealer; since your 07 allows all operations of an 01 FFL, you are a "dealer-manufacturer" in a sense. Installing a BB is not an act of manufacturing as it does not require fitting, machining, or drilling. Technically, adding a Raddlock or JJPearl AK mag lock, which requires drilling, is an act of manufacturing, which is also one of the reasons why I refuse to install them for transfers.

If you need help or advice setting up your A&D and mfg books, call me. It's easier to explain over the phone that type here on the forum.

ugimports
12-17-2009, 8:22 AM
Thanks for that ATF 2009-2 info. Very helpful.

Unfortunately, you are required, as a manufacturer of firearms to register with ITAR. It doesn't matter if you are actually physically manufacturing or not, you are a manufacturing FFL and need to pay up.

A BB is a drop in part and you need to be licensed as a dealer; since your 07 allows all operations of an 01 FFL, you are a "dealer-manufacturer" in a sense. Installing a BB is not an act of manufacturing as it does not require fitting, machining, or drilling. Technically, adding a Raddlock or JJPearl AK mag lock, which requires drilling, is an act of manufacturing, which is also one of the reasons why I refuse to install them for transfers.

If you need help or advice setting up your A&D and mfg books, call me. It's easier to explain over the phone that type here on the forum.

In regards to this section...a BB is only a drop in part if you are using one that does not require you to drill... so some of the AK bullet buttons that require a drill to mount the BB to the receiver look like they are considered manufacturing. THe Solar Tactical style which doesn't require any mods to th receiver look like they are "drop in" parts.

As for ITAR, I contacted them and they said as long as I haven't done any manufacturing (regardless of the class of my FFL) I am not required to register. Here's the email contents:


You are not required to register unless you are manufacturing or
exporting.

Stephen M. Geis
DDTC Response Team
Contractor, Lionel Henderson & Co., Inc.

NOTE: Information in this message generally discusses controls and
information contained in the Arms Export Control Act and International
Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), both of which are authoritative on
this matter. The Response Team fields basic process and status
questions, and assists exporters in identifying how to get answers to
more complex questions handled by the Directorate of Defense Trade
Control's licensing and compliance offices. The Response Team's
services are not a substitute or replacement for the advisory opinion,
general correspondence, and commodity jurisdiction processes delineated
in the ITAR, which should be used to obtain authoritative guidance on
export control issues, and do not in any way relieve exporters from
their responsibilities to comply fully with the law and regulations.

-----Original Message-----
From: UG Imports [mailto:sales@ugimports.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 2:05 AM
To: PM-DDTC-Response-Team-DL
Subject: ITAR Registration Required?

Hello,

I am a new firearms dealer with a FFL 07 license (manufacturing). We
have not yet registered for ITAR as our business operations have just
begun. However, we have not conducted any manufacturing operations at
this point. Our business plans have changed after receiving our FFL
paperwork and we do not have plans to do any manufacturing, but have not
had our license changed yet. Are we still required to register for ITAR
if we will not be doing any manufacturing activities?


So based on the response from ITAR as official/not official as email is I'm assuming I'm ok.

ke6guj
12-17-2009, 8:27 AM
ATF doesn't require any records for ammunition manufacturers, except armor piercing, which you can't do with an 07, only an 06 can make AP. I thought that only a Type 10 could manufacture AP ammo, which is defined as handgun AP ammo. An 06 or 07 can make rifle ammo that is armor piercing, because only handgun armor piercing ammo is considered AP per federal law.



A BB is a drop in part and you need to be licensed as a dealer; since your 07 allows all operations of an 01 FFL, you are a "dealer-manufacturer" in a sense. Installing a BB is not an act of manufacturing as it does not require fitting, machining, or drilling. Technically, adding a Raddlock or JJPearl AK mag lock, which requires drilling, is an act of manufacturing, which is also one of the reasons why I refuse to install them for transfers.
but since you are an 07, that is is considered a manufacturing act shouldn't be an issue, right? Expecially now that ATF put out that ruling about not needing to get a variance regarding markings.

ke6guj
12-17-2009, 8:29 AM
As for ITAR, I contacted them and they said as long as I haven't done any manufacturing (regardless of the class of my FFL) I am not required to register. Here's the email contents:



So based on the response from ITAR as official/not official as email is I'm assuming I'm ok.Interesing, so it looks like ITAR may allow for it, but how long would ATF allow one to keep an 07FFL if they have no intention to manufacture?

freakshow10mm
12-17-2009, 8:51 AM
Thanks for that ATF 2009-2 info. Very helpful.

In regards to this section...a BB is only a drop in part if you are using one that does not require you to drill... so some of the AK bullet buttons that require a drill to mount the BB to the receiver look like they are considered manufacturing. THe Solar Tactical style which doesn't require any mods to th receiver look like they are "drop in" parts.
Correct.

As for ITAR, I contacted them and they said as long as I haven't done any manufacturing (regardless of the class of my FFL) I am not required to register. Here's the email contents:
SNIP
So based on the response from ITAR as official/not official as email is I'm assuming I'm ok.
Interesting. I received a different response when I inquired about ITAR. Didn't keep the email as it was over a year ago. I was told regardless of any actual manufacturing of a defensive article actually taking place or not, the fact that I was a manufacturer was reason enough to qualify my company for ITAR.

I thought that only a Type 10 could manufacture AP ammo, which is defined as handgun AP ammo. An 06 or 07 can make rifle ammo that is armor piercing, because only handgun armor piercing ammo is considered AP per federal law.
A manufacturer can sell handgun AP to LE/gov but not to anyone else, records must be kept. Rifle AP can only be manufactured by an 06 or 10. ATF states the SS109 and the 7.62 equivalent are not considered AP, so an 07 may manufacture them. It gets confusing with a single FFL that covers two different types of manufacturing. The 06 is only $10/yr but it's another license to maintain, another license they can use for the one/year inspection, and the extra BS associated with dual FFLs is not worth it, IMO. That's why I deactivated my 06 and operate under my 07 only, but can only load SS109 and 7.62 AP, which I choose not to load anyway.


but since you are an 07, that is is considered a manufacturing act shouldn't be an issue, right? Expecially now that ATF put out that ruling about not needing to get a variance regarding markings.
I would still have to engrave my information and pay FET. The marking variance doesn't apply in this situation because I'm not manufacturing for another manufacturer.

Interesing, so it looks like ITAR may allow for it, but how long would ATF allow one to keep an 07FFL if they have no intention to manufacture?
Depends on your intent with the 07. For myself, paperwork is easier being an 07 as it covers all of what I do (manufacturing of firearms and ammunition, dealer sales, gunsmithing, and NFA weapons with the Class 2 SOT). I have one FFL that I can do everything I want with. One fee, one expiration date. Clean, concise, efficient.

The local ATF office had no problems with me obtaining an 07 so I could do 01 and 06 operations under one license. They also encourage an 07 for gunsmiths as it will cover your butt in case a mfg issue comes up.

freakshow10mm
12-17-2009, 8:53 AM
Oh, as an aside, the ATF and US State Department do NOT get along especially about the AECA and ITAR. Think Hatfield and McCoy only with government agencies and no bloodshed.

ugimports
12-17-2009, 9:36 AM
Interesing, so it looks like ITAR may allow for it, but how long would ATF allow one to keep an 07FFL if they have no intention to manufacture?

If they make me drop to an 01FFL I wouldn't complain. Like I said, my original intent when I applied was to get the app that would allow me to do everything so I wouldn't have to re-apply. I also had dreams of reloading ammo and selling the loads, but that quickly went away when I factored the work/costs involved and later found how crazy my local city would get with me having that much powder around :).

Now things may change before I renew and I may actually decide to start to manufacture something. That being the case, ITAR, FET, and all that crap would apply, but if I do not end up going that route, dropping to an 01 dealer only wouldn't be an issue for me. Especially with that clarification about the drop in replacement parts. When I first talked to my ATF agent during application process she said adding a scope would be considered manufacturing. According to the quoted section by freakshow that wouldn't apply in cases where I didn't have to drill/tap for the optic mount.

freakshow10mm
12-17-2009, 10:00 AM
However, adding a scope is an act of manufacturing. The scope is not a drop in replacement part, it's an addition, thus manufacturing.

Let's say you bought one of those Remington 710 with Bushnell 3-9x40 scope packages. You can replace the scope without being considered manufacturing. You cannot take a Remington 710 and add a scope to it as that's manufacturing.

The new manufacturing interpretation by the ATF effectively eliminated the "gunsmith special" of the week/month as was customary in the industry. Also if it something adds value to a firearm it's considered manufacturing by another interpretation. This doctrine would state if you replaced the factory scope package with one scope (and/or rings/bases) of equal or lesser value, that's fine, but if you take off the Bushnell and put on a Nightforce, that's increasing the value and it's manufacturing.

See what I mean about it's best to be an 07 FFL? Ooops, but I'm covered and it's less than 50 so no FET is a lot easier than the crap and hell BSP went through with the single shot pistol manufacturing.

ugimports
12-17-2009, 11:14 AM
However, adding a scope is an act of manufacturing. The scope is not a drop in replacement part, it's an addition, thus manufacturing.
...

So confusing...:confused:

So doesn't that make adding a Solar Tactical mag lock to an AK variant manufacturing as well? There is no "replacing" there either as would be the case with AR variants where the maglock is replacing the standard mag release mechanism.

freakshow10mm
12-17-2009, 12:32 PM
Gray area again. It's not internal so it's not a "drop-in" part by standard definition, it's not a replacement part, but there's no drilling, machining, or fitting. The ATF might say mag locks by and large are not manufacturing, but will always (and have) stood their ground that adding a scope to a firearm is manufacturing. My personal opinion is the ATF would cut slack and state mag locks are generally not manufacturing and are considered a "drop-in" part even though they are not a replacement.

ke6guj
12-17-2009, 10:07 PM
A manufacturer can sell handgun AP to LE/gov but not to anyone else, records must be kept. Rifle AP can only be manufactured by an 06 or 10. ATF states the SS109 and the 7.62 equivalent are not considered AP, so an 07 may manufacture them. It gets confusing with a single FFL that covers two different types of manufacturing. The 06 is only $10/yr but it's another license to maintain, another license they can use for the one/year inspection, and the extra BS associated with dual FFLs is not worth it, IMO. That's why I deactivated my 06 and operate under my 07 only, but can only load SS109 and 7.62 AP, which I choose not to load anyway.
can you show me where rifle AP ammo is regulated by ATF?

I've read up on it and see that the AP restrictions only applies to "pistol" AP ammo.


921(a)(17) (A) The term "ammunition"
means ammunition or cartridge cases,
primers, bullets, or propellant powder
designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term "armor piercing
ammunition" means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core
which may be used in a handgun
and which is constructed entirely
(excluding the presence of traces
of other substances) from one or a
combination of tungsten alloys,
steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium
copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger
than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and
whose jacket has a weight of more
than 25 percent of the total weight
of the projectile.
(C) The term "armor piercing
ammunition" does not include shotgun
shot required by Federal or State
environmental or game regulations
for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile
designed for target shooting, a
projectile which the Attorney General
finds is primarily intended to be used
for sporting purposes, or any other
projectile or projectile core which the
Attorney General finds is intended to
be used for industrial purposes, including
a charge used in an oil and
gas well perforating device.

see that the term "armor piercing" only applies to certain projectiles designed for use in a handgun. Projectiles designed to be used in a rifle would not fall under that definition.

§ 922 Unlawful acts.
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(7) for any person to manufacture or
import armor piercing ammunition,
unless--
(A) the manufacture of such ammunition
is for the use of the United
States, any department or agency of
the United States, any State, or any
department, agency, or political subdivision
of a State;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition
is for the purpose of exportation;
or
(C) the manufacture or importation
of such ammunition is for the purpose
of testing or experimentation
and has been authorized by the Attorney
General;
(8) for any manufacturer or importer
to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition,
unless such sale or delivery--
(A) is for the use of the United
States, any department or agency of
the United States, any State, or any
department, agency, or political
sudivision of a State;
(B) is for the purpose of exportation;
or
(C) is for the purpose of testing or
experimentation and has been authorized
by the Attorney General;
don't see anything about rifle AP mentioned in the prohibitions. It only specifies AP, which is defined as that specific type of handgun ammo.


§ 923 Licensing.
(a) No person shall engage in the business
of importing, manufacturing, or dealing
in firearms, or importing or
manufacturing ammunition, until he has
filed an application with and received a
license to do so from the Attorney General.
The application shall be in such form
and contain only that information necessary
to determine eligibility for licensing as
the Attorney General shall by regulation
prescribe and shall include a photograph
and finger-prints of the applicant. Each
applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining
such a license, a separate fee being required
for each place in which the applicant
is to do business, as follows:
(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer—
(A) of destructive devices, ammunition
for destructive devices or armor
piercing ammunition, a fee of
$1,000 per year;
(B) of firearms other than destructive
devices, a fee of $50 per year; or
(C) of ammunition for firearms,
other than ammunition for destructive
devices or armor piercing ammunition,
a fee of $10 per year.

AFAIK, 923(a)(1)(A) is the type 10 FFL, which specifically allows for the manufacture of "armor piercing ammo" (read as handgun AP ammo per the definition". Note the $1000 per year fee, that isn't an 06FFL.

923(a)(1)(B) allows for the manufacturing of ammo that is not AP (read as handgun AP ammo) or DD. 07FFL is the $50 per year fee ($150 for 3 year license), or the 06FFL at $10 per year ($30 for 3-year license).


I got this list from wiki, but it appears to match up with what I remember and what the USC and CFR say.

Federal Firearms License types

Type 1 Title 1 dealer or gunsmith other than destructive devices. Can also deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 3 tax stamp.

Type 2 Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker

Type 3 Licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms

Type 6 Licensed manufacturer of ammunition and reloading components other than Armor Piercing ammunition

Type 7 Title 1 manufacturer of firearms, who can also act as dealer, other than Destructive Devices, ammunition and ammunition components other than Armor Piercing ammunition. Can also manufacturer & deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 2 tax stamp.

Type 8 Importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition. Can also import Title II NFA firearms with class 1 tax stamp.

Type 9 Dealer in Title 1 firearms including NFA destructive devices, Requires payment as an SOT Class 1 (can act as an NFA Dealer) and registration with the US Dept. of State as a Broker under ITAR/D-TRADE. To deal/broker any DD with an explosives content (i.e. Flash-Bangs), requires an additional FFL; Dealer of High Explosives

Type 10 Manufacturer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, manufacturer of NFA Destructive Devices, ammunition for Destructive Devices and Armor Piercing ammunition (can act as a dealer). Requires payment as an SOT Class 2 (can act as an NFA Dealer) and registration with the US Dept. of State as a Manufacturer under ITAR/D-TRADE. To manufacture any DD with an explosives content (i.e. Flash-Bangs), requires an additional FFL; Type 20 Manufacturer of High Explosives.

Type 11 Importer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and NFA Destructive Devices, ammunition for Destructive Devices and Armor Piercing ammunition. Requires payment as an SOT Class 1 and registration with the US Dept. of State as a Broker under ITAR/D-TRADE. To import any DD with an explosives content (i.e. Flash-Bangs), requires an additional FFL; Importer of High Explosives.


AFAIK, an 06 or 07FFL can make rifle AP ammo to his heart's content, such as .50BMG AP ammo. ATF has ruled 5.56x45, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 to be handgun ammo, so there is no steel core available for that, lest it be considered AP ammo. SS109/M855 is specifically exempted because the penetrator is not large enough, but M995 AP black tip 5.56 isn't exempted.






I would still have to engrave my information and pay FET. The marking variance doesn't apply in this situation because I'm not manufacturing for another manufacturer.
gotcha

freakshow10mm
12-18-2009, 5:26 AM
Hmm, never looked into it too much. The ATF investigators and I were discussing it when I was asking about dropping my 06 and doing everything under my 07. They stated I can't make AP rifle (I knew AP handgun was a Type 10) under my 07. Recently I had a client contact me about loading some AP 7.62 NATO for him. I called my local ATF to see if I could do it and if any restrictions. They said I had to be an 06 FFL to load it.

billslugg
12-19-2009, 5:50 PM
...the fact that I was a manufacturer was reason enough to qualify my company for ITAR.

I have talked with two separate individuals at State and both agree that being a manufacturer puts you squarely under ITAR. You MUST submit a commodities jurisdiction request for each individual item you manufacture. Drawings, cutaways, the works. They may take up to 65 days to get back to you.

Unless your item is:

on the munitions list (which all guns are) AND it has no predominant civilian use AND it was specifically designed for the military
OR
your item represents a potential threat to national security,

they are not going to make you cough up the $2,400 a year.

Yes, you are under ITAR.
Yes, you must submit a CJ request for each item.
No, you do not neccessarily have to pay the big fee.

freakshow10mm
12-19-2009, 6:34 PM
I have talked with two separate individuals at State and both agree that being a manufacturer puts you squarely under ITAR. You MUST submit a commodities jurisdiction request for each individual item you manufacture. Drawings, cutaways, the works. They may take up to 65 days to get back to you.

Unless your item is:

on the munitions list (which all guns are) AND it has no predominant civilian use AND it was specifically designed for the military
OR
your item represents a potential threat to national security,

they are not going to make you cough up the $2,400 a year.


Bull****.

2006: Received 06 FFL as an ammunition manufacturer. Submitted CJ for domestic civilian and domestic civilian patrol law enforcement ammunition. Defensive article.

2008: Received 07 FFL as a firearms manufacturer. Submitted CJ for AR15 type semi-auto rifle, semi-auto pistol for domestic civilian use and full auto rifle, full auto pistol for domestic civilian patrol law enforcement use. Defensive articles.

If what you say is true, then the government owes my company $9,000 and we know damn well that's not happening.

billslugg
12-19-2009, 7:36 PM
If what you say is true, then the government owes my company $9,000 and we know damn well that's not happening.

Freakshow, we went through all this back in September here (http://http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=218045&highlight=CJ+request). It was the thread titled 01FFL/07FFL.

I think you got screwed. Get yourself a good lawyer and go through section 122 really closely. Designed for military with no predominant civilian use OR a threat to national security. Unless you fell under one of them, you should not be required to pay them.

Santa Cruz Armory
03-16-2011, 4:20 PM
Ok, I'm bring this one back from the dead... I don't think ITAR applies to FFL07s that only sell in the US and have no intention of selling/ exporting internationally.

This is from the ITAR website:

ITAR COMPLIANCE


What is ITAR?


The International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) detail the regulations governing the export of defense related materials and technologies, including hardware, software, and services. Governed by the Department of State, the ITAR’s goal is to safeguard U.S. national security and further U.S. foreign policy objectives.

It provides definitions of important terms, with information and procedures for registration, licenses, agreements, general policies, violations, penalties, and administrative procedures.


What does it mean to me?


If your company deals with military equipment, supplies, or technologies, ITAR regulations dictate that you share these items only with U.S. persons and organizations — unless you receive authorization from the Department of State or qualify for a special exemption.

You face potentially heavy fines or penalties for providing foreign persons with access to ITAR-protected defense items.


Discussion?

Table Rock Arms
03-16-2011, 6:11 PM
Thats a tough one. There are a lot of people who agree with you. The State Department is not one of them.

There is a guy who posts on this site that called me up one day after going back and forth on a thread here. he is an 07FFL but I forget what state he was in. after we got done discussing the original topic we started talking about ITAR. He claims that he spent a significant amount of time trying to get in contact with someone at the State Department who could give him the answer to the question you pose. He claims that he spoke with someone very high up the ladder and when asked what the penalty is for not paying ITAR for someone who does not export, the guy refused to answer and demanded to know who he was speaking to. After some persistence, the guy at the State Department told him there is none. Now, this was someone telling me this who I do not know so I can not say it is absolute fact, but it is interesting.

Ryan

Santa Cruz Armory
03-16-2011, 7:16 PM
Their description seems pretty cut and dry to me... if you are not providing foreign persons with or exporting military equipment internationally, it appears your good to go.

Table Rock Arms
03-16-2011, 7:52 PM
Well, I can't give you an example of anyone having the State Department going after them as a manufacturer that does not import. I have heard that it does happen however.

ugimports
03-18-2011, 9:05 AM
Their description seems pretty cut and dry to me... if you are not providing foreign persons with or exporting military equipment internationally, it appears your good to go.


Part 122

Registration of Manufacturers and Exporters

Sec. 122.1 Registration requirements.

(a) General. Any person who engages in the United States in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services is required to register with the Office of Munitions Control. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register.

(b) Exemptions. Registration is not required for: ...

(2) Persons whose pertinent business activity is confined to the production of unclassified technical data only. ...

(4) Persons who engage only in the fabrication of articles for experimental or scientific purposes, including research and development.

(c) Purpose. Registration is primarily a means to provide the U.S. Government with necessary information on who is involved in certain manufacturing and exporting activities. Registration does not confer any export rights or privileges. It is generally a precondition to the
issuance of any license or other approval under this subchapter.

See this section of ITAR though. Note the OR and the last sentence of section A. This seems pretty cut and dry too and hence the confusion.

PlacerTactical
03-18-2011, 9:58 AM
Originally Posted by http://epic.org/crypto/export_controls/itar.html
Part 122

Registration of Manufacturers and Exporters

Sec. 122.1 Registration requirements.

(a) General. Any person who engages in the United States in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services is required to register with the Office of Munitions Control. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register.

(b) Exemptions. Registration is not required for: ...

(2) Persons whose pertinent business activity is confined to the production of unclassified technical data only. ...

(4) Persons who engage only in the fabrication of articles for experimental or scientific purposes, including research and development.

(c) Purpose. Registration is primarily a means to provide the U.S. Government with necessary information on who is involved in certain manufacturing and exporting activities. Registration does not confer any export rights or privileges. It is generally a precondition to the
issuance of any license or other approval under this subchapter.

See this section of ITAR though. Note the OR and the last sentence of section A. This seems pretty cut and dry too and hence the confusion.

I think so too. It does say manufacturing or exporting of defense articles.
According to section 121.9, it lists firearms as defense articles.

§ 121.9 -- Firearms.

(a) Category I includes revolvers, pistols, rifles, carbines, fully automatic rifles, submachine guns, machine pistols and machine guns to caliber .50, inclusive. It includes combat shotguns. It excludes other shotguns with barrels 18 seconds or longer, BB, pellet, and muzzle loading (black powder) firearms.

(b) A firearm is a weapon not over .50 caliber which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or which may be readily converted to do so.

(c) A rifle is a shoulder firearm which can discharge a bullet through a rifled barrel 16 inches or longer.

(d) A carbine is a lightweight shoulder firearm with a barrel under 16 inches in length.

(e) A pistol is a hand-operated firearm having a chamber integral with or permanently aligned with the bore.

(f) A revolver is a hand-operated firearm with a revolving cylinder containing chambers for individual cartridges.

(g) A submachine gun, "machine pistol" or "machine gun" is a firearm originally designed to fire, or capable of being fired, fully automatically by a single pull of the trigger.

Santa Cruz Armory
03-20-2011, 10:23 PM
All my builds are experimental, and for the purposes of R&D.

(b) Exemptions. Registration is not required for: ...

(4) Persons who engage only in the fabrication of articles for experimental or scientific purposes, including research and development.

yzernie
03-20-2011, 10:51 PM
Manufacturing and assembling are two completely different things.

Hateca
03-20-2011, 11:27 PM
Q: May a person engage in gunsmithing under a dealer’s license (type 01), or do gunsmiths need to be licensed as “manufacturers” of firearms?
Generally, a person engaged in gunsmithing requires only a dealer’s license (type 01). There are circumstances in which a gunsmith might require a manufacturing license. Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the person is: 1. performing operations which create firearms or alter firearms (in the case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers, rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the changes, and then reselling them), 2. is performing the operations as a regular course of business or trade, and 3. is performing the operations for the purpose of sale or distribution of the firearms.

Below are examples of operations performed on firearms and guidance as to whether or not such operations would be considered manufacturing under the Gun Control Act (GCA). These examples do not address the question of whether the operations are considered manufacturing for purposes of determining excise tax. Any questions concerning the payment of excise tax should be directed to the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau, U.S. Department of the Treasury.

1.A company produces a quantity of firearm frames or receivers for sale to customers who will assemble firearms.

The company is engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms and should be licensed as a manufacturer of firearms.

2.A company produces frames or receivers for another company that assembles and sells the firearms.

Both companies are engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms and each should be licensed as a manufacturer of firearms.

3.A company provides frames to a subcontractor company that performs machining operations on the frames and returns the frames to the original company which assembles and sells the completed firearms.

Both companies are engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms and should be licensed as manufacturers of firearms.

4.A company produces barrels for firearms and sells the barrels to another company that assembles and sells complete firearms.

Because barrels are not firearms, the company that manufactures the barrels is not a manufacturer of firearms. The company that assembles and sells the firearms should be licensed as a manufacturer of firearms.

5.A company receives firearm frames from individual customers, attaches stocks and barrels and returns the firearms to the customers for the customers' personal use.

The operations performed on the firearms were not for the purpose of sale or distribution. The company should be licensed as a dealer or gunsmith, not as a manufacturer of firearms.

6.A company acquires one receiver, assembles one firearm, and sells the firearm.

The company is not manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business and is not engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms. This company does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer.

7.An individual acquires frames or receivers and assembles firearms for his personal use, not for sale or distribution.

The individual is not manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution and is not required to be a licensed manufacturer.

8.A gunsmith regularly buys military type firearms, Mausers etc., and “sporterizes” them for resale.

The gunsmith is in the business of manufacturing firearms and should be licensed as a manufacturer.

9.A gunsmith buys semiautomatic pistols or revolvers and modifies the slides to accept new Style f sights. The sights are not usually sold with these firearms and do not attach to the existing mounting openings.

The gunsmith offers these firearms for sale. This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

10.A gunsmith buys government model pistols and installs “drop-in” precision trigger parts or other “drop-in parts” for the purpose of resale.

This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms, as the gunsmith is purchasing the firearms, modifying the firearms and selling them. The gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

11.A gunsmith buys surplus military rifles, bends the bolts to accept a scope, and then drills the receivers for a scope base. The gunsmith offers these firearms for sale.

This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

12.A gunsmith buys surplus military rifles or pistols and removes the stocks, adds new stocks or pistol grips, cleans the firearms, then sends the firearms to a separate contractor for bluing. These firearms are then sold to the public.

This would be considered manufacturing of firearms and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

13.A company purchases surplus firearms, cleans the firearms then offers them for sale to the public.

The company does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer.