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View Full Version : Denied: Learning and Safety for the Marksmanship Club @ UCSD


pullnshoot25
12-13-2009, 10:51 PM
Figured you guys might like to see this.

First letter was written by several club members and myself to the Chancellor with a CC to the Chief of Police. Each copy was signed by all 4 officers and hand delivered.

The second letter is (unfortunately) UCSD's denial letter. While not as squirrely as the denial letters I got when I tried to get a 626.9 exemption, the wording is still rather and, contrary to popular belief about institutions of higher education, completely backwards.

Request Letter (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZRgaEwQBTArZGM5ajdzNWtfNDVja2pwa2Njcg&hl=en)

Denial Letter
(http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B5RgaEwQBTArMzc3OGQ0OWUtY2FlYS00ODY5L Tg4NmQtYmU5NDZjNWYyY2Rj&hl=en)

This is just a minor set back. Member #99 just signed up today and there are more things in the pipeline.

AndrewMendez
12-13-2009, 11:03 PM
Nate, in my "legal gun owning, law abiding citizen" opinion, I don't understand why people are not allowed to carry guns on campus. However, with multiple school shooting in the last 15 years, I can see where the school is coming from. None the less, I still think it is bull crap. Is there a Dojo on campus with nun chucks? How about pole vaults with long sticks with a spikes on the end?

Scratch705
12-13-2009, 11:06 PM
^^ you mean javelins?

heck. i would be more afraid of a armed bow shooter on the loose on campus... silent kills and no way to know there is anyone shooting until the arrows hits.

AndrewMendez
12-13-2009, 11:39 PM
^^ you mean javelins?



YES!!!!!!! Thank you! I could not think for the life of me, what that was called!

cc4usmc
12-14-2009, 12:00 AM
Gotta love "collective opinion".

Ugh.

Chk Chk Boom
12-14-2009, 12:04 AM
Figured you guys might like to see this.

First letter was written by several club members and myself to the Chancellor with a CC to the Chief of Police. Each copy was signed by all 4 officers and hand delivered.

The second letter is (unfortunately) UCSD's denial letter. While not as squirrely as the denial letters I got when I tried to get a 626.9 exemption, the wording is still rather and, contrary to popular belief about institutions of higher education, completely backwards.

Request Letter (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZRgaEwQBTArZGM5ajdzNWtfNDVja2pwa2Njcg&hl=en)

Denial Letter
(http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B5RgaEwQBTArMzc3OGQ0OWUtY2FlYS00ODY5L Tg4NmQtYmU5NDZjNWYyY2Rj&hl=en)

This is just a minor set back. Member #99 just signed up today and there are more things in the pipeline.

I just wanted to say that your letter was written extremely well. Whoever wrote it has wayyyy better skills with English than I do.


Maybe there was a reason I was rejected from UCSD last year...

pullnshoot25
12-14-2009, 12:29 AM
I just wanted to say that your letter was written extremely well. Whoever wrote it has wayyyy better skills with English than I do.


Maybe there was a reason I was rejected from UCSD last year...

Matt and I wrote most of it. Elsensei edited it for us.

We appreciate the honesty :)

cbn620
12-14-2009, 1:19 AM
So what's plan B? (Or is it plan C now?)

nrvnqsrxk
12-14-2009, 1:21 AM
I'll bet they were scared when they first read your letter. But I'm not surprised with their course of action. What would they do if you guys took over a building in protest of the tuition hike? It would be a legislative nightmare, since you guys had "written permission".

I feel like it could have made more of an impact if you had included a section that made it clear to the reader the only times you would be bringing the guns to campus, unloaded, with the signatures of every member of your club, with a provision that the right would expire at the end of every semester.

bigcalidave
12-14-2009, 1:27 AM
What ifs are the reason we have all the stupid gun laws. Don't say what if, makes you sound like an anti :P

joelberg
12-14-2009, 1:33 AM
I wonder what the probability of getting this same thing approved at SDSU or USD.

It's a good idea and it's really cool that you're working so hard in this respect.

cbn620
12-14-2009, 1:34 AM
The letter doesn't even give me the idea that they bothered to read too much into yours. You specifically advise that you're not asking carte blanche, but the letter pretty much says they would not allow an exception and the way they phrase it it makes me think they think you're asking to carry bazookas and machine guns to class. Are they honestly saying they wouldn't allow the exception to the tiny degree that you guys asked?

nrvnqsrxk
12-14-2009, 2:04 AM
What ifs are the reason we have all the stupid gun laws. Don't say what if, makes you sound like an anti :P

The situation I wrote is a valid argument, given the protests that have occurred at UCLA and Cal.

UCLA (http://www.collegenews.com/index.php?/article/ucla_protest_results_in_arrests_1118200950378732/)
Berkeley (http://www.eagleworldnews.com/2009/11/21/berkeley-students-protest-tuition-hikes/)

CalNRA
12-14-2009, 3:43 AM
The situation I wrote is a valid argument, given the protests that have occurred at UCLA and Cal.

UCLA (http://www.collegenews.com/index.php?/article/ucla_protest_results_in_arrests_1118200950378732/)
Berkeley (http://www.eagleworldnews.com/2009/11/21/berkeley-students-protest-tuition-hikes/)

how is that relevant?

By your logic no one should be allowed to carry guns since somewhere someone rioted in public and caused property damage, and the CCW issuing agency is afraid of being sued.

There is no rationale behind pencil pushers denying law-abiding students' request to engage in an otherwise legal activity. The administration have the expressed authority to give permission and stipulate any condition attached to it(safe storage, approved manner of transporting, etc) as do the CCW issuing authorities, but they chose to just say no.



I feel like it could have made more of an impact if you had included a section that made it clear to the reader the only times you would be bringing the guns to campus, unloaded, with the signatures of every member of your club, with a provision that the right would expire at the end of every semester.

see their letter:

The officers of the Marksmanship Club understand the gravity of the request we are making of the University. We understand that this request, if granted, is not carte blanche to bring firearms onto campus arbitrarily, nor is it permission to carry a concealed or loaded firearm, nor is it permission to bend or break any laws, nor does this confer any other special privileges upon the Club or it's members. We realize that this permission will be subject to Local, State and Federal laws and University policies and that there will need to be specific protocols developed to deal with all facets of this request. The Marksmanship Club will adhere to all rules and regulations without deviation.

nrvnqsrxk
12-14-2009, 5:17 AM
I'm going to try to respond to your queries as best as I can. Don't take any of my responses as an attack against you. I'm a business student attending USC and this is just what I feel about the situation.

If you don't feel like reading long posts, my bottom line is

a. I'm not surprised they denied the request because the school has little to gain, and lots to lose.
b. The letter is written ambiguously in such a way that could alarm the reader (No mention of how the firearms are to be transports, unloaded, their expected SOP, etc.)


how is that relevant?

UCLA. UC Berkeley. UCSD. These are all schools facing a tuition hike effective immediately, and some students on financial aid are not happy with the decision.

Am I saying that they will, given the chance, occupy buildings with firearms, and demand the tuition be brought back down?

Not at all. It's just something that administration would have to consider, and that is what makes it a legitimate concern. Perhaps you can point out why you feel it is not relevant?


By your logic no one should be allowed to carry guns since somewhere someone rioted in public and caused property damage, and the CCW issuing agency is afraid of being sued.


I did not infer that all gun owners everywhere are not allowed to carry guns. I feel like you are taking my example out of context. I'm all for open carry. If BG's can see that people are armed, they'll think twice about striking. It's just a matter of time waiting for our government to have enough politicians to change laws. Or for the Supreme Court keep their pimp hand strong.

There is no rationale behind pencil pushers denying law-abiding students' request to engage in an otherwise legal activity. The administration have the expressed authority to give permission and stipulate any condition attached to it(safe storage, approved manner of transporting, etc) as do the CCW issuing authorities, but they chose to just say no.

The school officials do have the authority, and they may be power tripping. But I thought about it from their perspective, and if I made a cost benefit analysis, the costs far outweigh the benefits. From my interpretation, only the officers signed that document. Who would these rights of carrying, transporting, and possessing firearms on campus extend to? If something happened, who could be held responsible? I would have my *** on the line. Who would benefit? The 100 or so members of the club. And I would be doing the right thing as a patriot for encouraging the development of proper citizens that know how to use firearms. But what choice would I make in the end? Run the risk of doing something great for my country (but get fried by anti-gun people or peers for letting students bring even unloaded firearms to school?), or protect my own ***? If you had a family to feed at home, and had a nice cushy job running a university, I doubt you would allow the group the exception. Little to gain, so much to lose.

More importantly, I didn't see any provision or clause in that letter stating that the firearm would be carried unloaded. It maybe transparent to writer that this may be the only way to transport the gun, but to the reader, the issue was not addressed. Which is why I recommended that they have their members sign the document as well. I'll admit my recommendation was poorly written run-on, and that I omitted the part that they should eliminate any ambiguities that could cause the reader to ask any quesitions. But I need to go to sleep so I'll reply tmrw in between studying for my corporate strategy final, lol.

SO BOTTOM LINE:

a) Denied because administration is more concerned with saving their own ***
b) Suggestion: have club members sign your request as well, and amend to make request clearer.

joelberg
12-14-2009, 5:27 AM
Your concern is not valid because this permission slip to allow firearms to be brought on campus to demonstrate safe use and handling has nothing to do with them violating the law and occupying campus structures and making terrorists threats. They can already illegally occupy a building and make terrorist threats. Allowing safe handling techniques to be demonstrated on campus does not enable anything.

pullnshoot25
12-14-2009, 6:01 AM
Damn, some of you guys sound like you were made to be geldings pretty early in life.

I think I was pretty clear in the letter when I said "We realize that this permission will be subject to Local, State and Federal laws and University policies and that there will need to be specific protocols developed to deal with all facets of this request. The Marksmanship Club will adhere to all rules and regulations without deviation."


They had the opportunity to allow us to have an equal footing with all the other clubs on campus but they denied it because it involved a firearm.

Plan B or C? Stay tuned...

ENTHUSIAST
12-14-2009, 6:10 AM
Damn, some of you guys sound like you were made to be geldings pretty early in life.

I think I was pretty clear in the letter when I said "We realize that this permission will be subject to Local, State and Federal laws and University policies and that there will need to be specific protocols developed to deal with all facets of this request. The Marksmanship Club will adhere to all rules and regulations without deviation."


They had the opportunity to allow us to have an equal footing with all the other clubs on campus but they denied it because it involved a firearm.

Plan B or C? Stay tuned...

Get 'em N8!!!

Best of luck bro you are like a bulwark for the 2A we need more out there like you!!! :79:

Nodda Duma
12-14-2009, 6:28 AM
No one is trying to piss on your parade. I think most are trying to offer you good advice. Remember this bit of wisdom for your future career: Advice and peer review is not personal, it is a professional courtesy.

Don't make the reader look up the information. Include references and quotes. Let them know you did your homework. The quote from your letter below would be considered "hand waving", which doesn't usually win brownie points in any professional document (which is what you submitted).

-Jason

Damn, some of you guys sound like you were made to be geldings pretty early in life.

I think I was pretty clear in the letter when I said "We realize that this permission will be subject to Local, State and Federal laws and University policies and that there will need to be specific protocols developed to deal with all facets of this request. The Marksmanship Club will adhere to all rules and regulations without deviation."


They had the opportunity to allow us to have an equal footing with all the other clubs on campus but they denied it because it involved a firearm.

Plan B or C? Stay tuned...

NiteQwill
12-14-2009, 6:54 AM
No one is trying to piss on your parade. I think most are trying to offer you good advice. Remember this bit of wisdom for your future career: Advice and peer review is not personal, it is a professional courtesy.

Don't make the reader look up the information. Include references and quotes. Let them know you did your homework. The quote from your letter below would be considered "hand waving", which doesn't usually win brownie points in any professional document (which is what you submitted).

-Jason

+1

Always, always provide attached references when providing a business letter. It gives the reader solid information without having to go search for it.

snobord99
12-14-2009, 7:30 AM
I think I was pretty clear in the letter when I said "We realize that this permission will be subject to Local, State and Federal laws and University policies and that there will need to be specific protocols developed to deal with all facets of this request. The Marksmanship Club will adhere to all rules and regulations without deviation."


The fatal flaw with that statement is that it presupposes that the reader is familiar with the law. For example, we here all know that that statement means that you won't be carrying it loaded and concealed; however, that doesn't mean the Chancellor (or Vice Chancellor) knows that.

Ultimately, I don't think any letter you could have written would get you the permission you sought. This is something that would require a meeting at the very least. I'd definitely recommend that as the next step. Request a meeting to appeal.

smguser
12-14-2009, 8:34 AM
Are there any campuses that allow Marksmanship Clubs to have weapons on school grounds? If there were you many be able to use that to your advantage.

jazman
12-14-2009, 8:52 AM
Matt and I wrote most of it. Elsensei edited it for us.

We appreciate the honesty :)

Missed two typos though.;)

SenorJefe
12-14-2009, 9:29 AM
Seriously nice work and effort on your part n8. That being said, take some of the criticism to heart. Throw the rest away ;)

What you're doing is grass roots. An invaluable step for gun rights, especially in a state like ours.

Keep it up!

a1c
12-14-2009, 9:42 AM
There clearly are two forces you are battling here.

First, the campus police, that is probably highly uncomfortable with the idea of civilians carrying firearms. "How can we tell who the bad guy is?" is the question that always pops up. Then there is the inevitable consequence, which is that many people who are not familiar at all with either gun laws or firearms in general will be nervous to see anybody carrying, and will flood the campus police with calls. The recent UOC news report from Cupertino and Sunnyvale show that some people are completely ignorant of those rights and get very nervous when they see somebody carrying.

Then there is the liability option. I suspect this was their main motivator. In the unlikely event they had a shooting on their campus, they would end up crucified by a huge chunk of the public opinion, and their policy would be exposed as having made things much easier for whatever gunman gone mad.

There is little you can do here. That sucks. Good for you however for sending this very good document to the campus officials. It's very educative and rational. One step at a time.

GrizzlyGuy
12-14-2009, 10:26 AM
I'll bet they were scared when they first read your letter. But I'm not surprised with their course of action. What would they do if you guys took over a building in protest of the tuition hike? It would be a legislative nightmare, since you guys had "written permission".

They may indeed have rejected the request in part due to fear of that happening. But the lefty/whiny students who didn't get their way with tuition entitlements did more than occupy buildings. They smashed planters, windows and lights, and threw torches and other objects at officers and patrol cars (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/12/13/BASN1B3D59.DTL). The university chancellor was literally in fear of his life and his wife's life.

Pullnshoot25 and his group didn't get their way, but I'm 100% sure they won't resort to violence like the leftists. I think they should try and setup a face-to-face meeting with the campus officials to further explain their request, and show them, in person, that they aren't radically violent criminals like the lefties, and their might-takeover-a-building fears are completely unfounded.

The skills they are trying to teach would be immensely valuable should wider spread leftist civil unrest break out in the SD area (or wherever) in the future. The university officials would be wise to acquire those skills as well, in case they and their spouses are ever in the same position as the UC Berkeley chancellor: fearing for their lives.

pullnshoot25
12-14-2009, 11:41 AM
OK then, lets make this letter better. This document is now open for anyone to edit.

Also, I can't see the typos. Please correct them (and any others!) as you see fit.

Calguns Cooperative Letter to the Chancellor at UCSD (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZRgaEwQBTArZGM5ajdzNWtfMTM0eHdmMzR0ZjU&hl=en)

jazman
12-14-2009, 12:01 PM
OK then, lets make this letter better. This document is now open for anyone to edit.

Also, I can't see the typos. Please correct them (and any others!) as you see fit.

Calguns Cooperative Letter to the Chancellor at UCSD (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AZRgaEwQBTArZGM5ajdzNWtfMTM0eHdmMzR0ZjU&hl=en)

Changes in red. Minor, but best of course to have a document this important as perfect as possible.

pullnshoot25
12-14-2009, 12:09 PM
Changes in red. Minor, but best of course to have a document this important as perfect as possible.

Just edited. If you don't mind, please check again for flow. Feel free to edit as you see fit.

dirtnap
12-14-2009, 12:29 PM
Feel free to edit as you see fit.

Must resist urge.....:D

IGOTDIRT4U
12-14-2009, 12:57 PM
were made to be geldings pretty early in life


lol. Wonder ho wmany heads that went over.

N8, keep trying. It's a modest effort to restore some sense of reality on/in a campus environment. While the admin runs around worrying about "possible gun owners on campus" they are also likely to seperate you from your civil rights. It's hard for them to follow their hearts about anti-gun propoganda and not violate your rights. Sheesh, all you want is a simple, campus club for like minded students to gather.

nrvnqsrxk
12-14-2009, 10:22 PM
I didn't get it, and but was enlightened following a google search. and it hurt my feeling :(

lulz.

Anyways, I'll try and help you out after my final.