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V8toytruck
12-13-2009, 8:41 PM
Just dropped this into my i7 920 build, holy smokes this thing is quick. 1.5-2 seconds to open Photoshop CS4 64bit.

Pros
Silent
Speed
Size (not that it matters in the Antec 1200 case)

Cons
Only have 25gb left after OS + Adobe Creative Suite CS4
Price (even with a huge EE discount)

JDay
12-13-2009, 11:37 PM
Just dropped this into my i7 920 build, holy smokes this thing is quick. 1.5-2 seconds to open Photoshop CS4 64bit.

Pros
Silent
Speed
Size (not that it matters in the Antec 1200 case)

Cons
Only have 25gb left after OS + Adobe Creative Suite CS4
Price (even with a huge EE discount)

They also die faster than a regular hard drive since you can only write to each area so many times.

Blackhawk556
12-14-2009, 12:21 AM
just curious but what OS are you running?

I hope it's either OSX or 7

if you don't mind me asking how much was it? or can you provide a link to where you got it

thanks

Mute
12-14-2009, 7:13 AM
Yes they are fast. Absolutely worth it. Every computer I've ever used, the biggest bottleneck had always been the hard drive. As for the longevity issue. Sure, they're not quite as durable as your traditional hard drive but for a majority of users, it's no longer enough of an issue to worry about. It should last long enough for you to most likely need a new computer before you need to replace the drive.

glock_this
12-14-2009, 7:17 AM
I wouldn't even touch an 80gb drive - pa lease - no matter how fast it is and I make a living on a computer

80gb is anemic and because of that, you have to store files off that main drive, and then your back to a bottleneck given the 2ndairy drive holding your files

smird
12-14-2009, 7:24 AM
here's a fun little video
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/96dWOEa4Djs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/96dWOEa4Djs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

glock_this
12-14-2009, 7:32 AM
can you say CHA CHING

but the real bummer to that vid is that they are on a peecee :43: what a waste

hella fast though...

Digital_Boy
12-14-2009, 8:11 AM
They also die faster than a regular hard drive since you can only write to each area so many times.

Wrong. MTBF for an SSD is equal to or greater than an spindle based drive. Long before the gates on the SSD get wonky, you'll have replaced it with something that's 5X the capacity for 1/4 the price you paid for your first one.

Personally, I can't wait until they're cheap enough to build RAID arrays out of for NAS boxes. :D

Digital_Boy
12-14-2009, 8:14 AM
I wouldn't even touch an 80gb drive - pa lease - no matter how fast it is and I make a living on a computer

80gb is anemic and because of that, you have to store files off that main drive, and then your back to a bottleneck given the 2ndairy drive holding your files

If you've got that many files, why the hell aren't you using a NAS? It's much simpler and easier to keep them on a networked storage box and not have all that crud cluttering up your workstation disk drive.

glock_this
12-14-2009, 8:19 AM
self employed, so costs and amount of room in office and such dictate certain setup constraints. If I am going to spend the coin on a file server, I would rather spend that same money on say a tricked out portable and that way, I can clone my main system over and have a backup that can kick in if my main dies AND a portable all in 1 purchase. So, I would rather spend money on more utility than a stand alone single use item.

A NAS setup would be nice, but not feasible in my current setup.

Digital_Boy
12-14-2009, 8:33 AM
I'm fond of the Promise NS-4300N. Nice, easy, simple to setup, supports NFS and SMB, gig ethernet, and can support up to 2TB drives for a grand total of 8TB in striped mode, or 6TB in RAID5. You can pick them up for $300 if you catch them on sale at Fry's, so figure $700 or so for one populated with 1.5TB drives (since 2TB's are still $$$), and you've got 4.5TB of RAID5 redundant space to play with.

Drobos are nice too, but they lack built in ethernet ports, which really kills it for me. They're strength is the hardware automatically adjusts the volume size on the fly to accomodate adding or removing drives.

http://www.promise.com/product/product_detail_eng.asp?product_id=177

JDay
12-14-2009, 9:30 AM
Sure, they're not quite as durable as your traditional hard drive but for a majority of users, it's no longer enough of an issue to worry about. It should last long enough for you to most likely need a new computer before you need to replace the drive.

At current prices its not cost effective to get a new one when you upgrade your computer. That 80gb Intel SSD is $299. You can replace your motherboard, CPU and get some more ram for that price. Another $50 and you can get a notebook.

JDay
12-14-2009, 9:42 AM
If you've got that many files, why the hell aren't you using a NAS? It's much simpler and easier to keep them on a networked storage box and not have all that crud cluttering up your workstation disk drive.

His point is that 80gb wont hold your OS and all your apps if you actually use your computer for work. Forget about storing your documents on there. SSDs are cool for the wow factor but they arent ready to replace standard drives yet.

JDay
12-14-2009, 9:45 AM
Wrong. MTBF for an SSD is equal to or greater than an spindle based drive. Long before the gates on the SSD get wonky, you'll have replaced it with something that's 5X the capacity for 1/4 the price you paid for your first one.

Personally, I can't wait until they're cheap enough to build RAID arrays out of for NAS boxes. :D

http://www.wdc.com/WDProducts/SSD/whitepapers/en/SiliconDrive_SiSMART.pdf

Solid State Drives
SiliconDrives do not have moving parts because they are solid state storage solutions, so many of the parameters monitored by the SMART function for HDDs are not applicable. Solid state drives are preferred in environmentally robust and high-duty cycle applications because they do not mechanically wear out, but there is still a concern about them wearing out when exceeding the endurance specification. In much the same way a rechargeable battery loses its charge after several cycles, nonvolatile solid state storage components can lose their ability to retain data after tens of thousands of write/erase cycles. This is usually specified by component vendors as endurance. When a block loses its ability to retain data or when data errors occur that cannot be corrected by the drive's ECC algorithm, the block is swapped with one from an available spare pool. When the spare blocks are exhausted and another error occurs, the solid state drive reaches critical failure and needs to be replaced.

Want to guess how fast the swap file performs several tens of thousands of read/write cycles?

stormy_clothing
12-14-2009, 10:19 AM
80gb is for girlie men

http://www.cnet.co.uk/i/c/blg/cat/storage/puresilicon_1tb_ssd.jpg

Some specifications of the Nitro 1 TB SSD:

Specifications - Nitro Series SSD:
Capacities: 32GB, 64GB, 128GB, 256GB, 512GB, 1024GB
Performance
-- Transfer rate: 300MB/sec
-- Sustained read: 240MB/sec
-- Sustained write: 215MB/sec
-- Random read (IOPS 4K): 50,000
-- Random write (IOPS 4K): 10,000
-- Latency < 100 Ásec
Reliability
-- MTTF: 2.0 million hours

glock_this
12-14-2009, 10:21 AM
80gb is for girlie men


exactly

Mute
12-14-2009, 12:01 PM
There are more than enough data out there that shows that SSDs are more than ready for prime time. Although 80gb is anemic, size wise for apps and OS, you're no longer limited to that small a size. Just do what many others do. Run OS off the SSD and get a traditional spindle drive for documents.

Current SSDs are more than robust enough to last you until your next computer. By then, prices will be even lower. The performance increase more than justifies the price if you need the performance.

JDay
12-14-2009, 7:25 PM
There are more than enough data out there that shows that SSDs are more than ready for prime time. Although 80gb is anemic, size wise for apps and OS, you're no longer limited to that small a size. Just do what many others do. Run OS off the SSD and get a traditional spindle drive for documents.
.

Easier said then done when you have a notebook computer, which is where these drives make the most difference since they use much less power than a traditional hard drive. Putting in one that has enough storage space could cost you more then your notebook. Until the price drops down to $1.50/GB or less these drives are not ready for the consumer market. I wouldn't expect that to happen for another 2-3 years or more.

V8toytruck
12-14-2009, 9:09 PM
Costs per GB is definitely high. If I didn't get it for $160 shipped I'd definitely be looking at other options. VRaptors probably. Hopefully new firmware update will keep the Intel drive running at like new speeds.

Please post the price of the SSD 1TB Drive :)

V8toytruck
12-14-2009, 9:18 PM
just curious but what OS are you running?

I hope it's either OSX or 7

if you don't mind me asking how much was it? or can you provide a link to where you got it

thanks


Win 7 Ultimate

Price posted above..and was employee discount.

JDay
12-14-2009, 9:29 PM
Price posted above..and was employee discount.

Do you work at Intel?

V8toytruck
12-14-2009, 9:57 PM
Negative. Sibling does though. Picked up a quad core on the cheap :)

HAVOC5150
12-14-2009, 10:27 PM
Sorry to interject with my stupidity, I am in no way trying to rip your thread. I should be wearing a helmet when it comes to computers, I don't even own one (I'm using my GF's) but am going to buy one in the next couple weeks. I'm looking at a Mac notebook are they as good as they say they are? Thanks for the help.

JDay
12-14-2009, 11:22 PM
Sorry to interject with my stupidity, I am in no way trying to rip your thread. I should be wearing a helmet when it comes to computers, I don't even own one (I'm using my GF's) but am going to buy one in the next couple weeks. I'm looking at a Mac notebook are they as good as they say they are? Thanks for the help.

They cost more than they should. You can get better hardware in a PC for less. Windows 7 is also more secure than OS X (pretty sure Vista is too). What you need to ask yourself is this, is there any reason you need a Mac and can you justify the premium? Most of that price goes to pay for the name and design of the casing.

HAVOC5150
12-15-2009, 8:16 AM
My cousin works for Apple, he gets an employee discount so he quoted me $1170 for a 13" Mac. But are they that much better than a Dell, HP, Gateway?

Digital_Boy
12-15-2009, 12:15 PM
My cousin works for Apple, he gets an employee discount so he quoted me $1170 for a 13" Mac. But are they that much better than a Dell, HP, Gateway?

Apple laptops use high end components, and the design is generally very aesthetically pleasing.

If you're looking to get maximum bang for your buck, then Apple is not the way to go. They simply do not compete in the middle and low end computer markets. In the high end market, their product compares pretty well cost wise to Dell or other laptops of equivalent specification. Their customer service is also top notch, which might be a selling point for you if you're not comfortable troubleshooting a problem. I've read numerous accounts of people with MacBooks with hardware trouble taking it to their local apple store, and getting it fixed for free, or upgraded with a higher spec notebook if theirs was too far out of production for Apple to have any refurbed replacements, all data migrated, etcetera etcetera.

Also, if you need to run Windows applications, since Macs have been running on Intel hardware for almost 10 years now, you can set your machine up with both OS X and Windows XP or Windows 7 and choose which one to boot in. For a while, the top end MacBook was the fastest Windows laptop on the market.

JDay
12-15-2009, 2:44 PM
Their customer service is also top notch, which might be a selling point for you if you're not comfortable troubleshooting a problem. I've read numerous accounts of people with MacBooks with hardware trouble taking it to their local apple store, and getting it fixed for free,

Don't expect and decent level of service if you don't purchase their extended AppleCare warranty.

Also, if you need to run Windows applications, since Macs have been running on Intel hardware for almost 10 years now, you can set your machine up with both OS X and Windows XP or Windows 7 and choose which one to boot in. For a while, the top end MacBook was the fastest Windows laptop on the market.

WRONG, the switch began in January of 2006 and was completed on August 28, 2009 with the release of OS X v10.6 which had PPC support removed. They haven't been Intel only for even a year yet.

Turbinator
12-18-2009, 10:08 PM
You guys ripping on SSD's should be looking at what they are really used for today - tiered storage. This is where the benefit is right now. Traditional rotating disk still does have a strong place in configurations, particularly where SSD is not cost effective or where you need nearline, but SSD does have its place today for specific applications.

Turby

artherd
12-19-2009, 1:18 PM
When 2.5" SSDs reach 512GB I am throwing one in my macbook pro. I may knuckle under early and snag the 256GB Samsung.

jnojr
12-20-2009, 10:03 AM
If you've got that many files, why the hell aren't you using a NAS? It's much simpler and easier to keep them on a networked storage box and not have all that crud cluttering up your workstation disk drive.

Because then it wouldn't be on his main drive!!! That's very important!

bwiese
12-20-2009, 12:18 PM
Coupla observations....

1. Movie: the guy talks about how fast defrag is. But why defrag a flash drive? Defrag was
originally to keep files' sectors/clusters in order to avoid excessive head-movement thrashing,
slowing down access. With SSDs there's no head movement (and even with magnetic platter
HDDs, the bad block revectoring may well move some areas around so that logical block addresses
are physically in differing areas on the disk, requiring head movement). Defrag can be useful
for keeping a drive up to par in case it crashes and you wanna recover data from it, but NTFS
is a pretty good filesystem and recovery is good despite defrag.

2. Intensity of use/wear: Most folks, even intense users, won't wear the SSD from their
actual work files. Internal wear-levelling algorithms that remap LBA sectors/clusters the fly to avoid "high traffic" on a given area of the silicon. If your PC is paging/swapping a lot you don't have enough DRAM anyway, and the quality SSDs have their own internal large DRAM cache + algorithms to mititgate a lot of this "traffic" issue. I believe newer Windows releases (Vista? 7?) are smarter in HDD access too, if they know an SSD drive is being used.

We use flash devices in our camcorders and don't have to worry about flash wear.

I'm probably gonna add an SSD drive on my work PC (ThinkPad W500), on my own nickel. There's tons of Big Corp security software loaded that makes doing builds slow and this can really help. Plus it's gotta help battery life.

JDay
12-20-2009, 1:58 PM
Coupla observations....

1. Movie: the guy talks about how fast defrag is. But why defrag a flash drive? Defrag was
originally to keep files' sectors/clusters in order to avoid excessive head-movement thrashing,
slowing down access. With SSDs there's no head movement (and even with magnetic platter
HDDs, the bad block revectoring may well move some areas around so that logical block addresses
are physically in differing areas on the disk, requiring head movement). Defrag can be useful
for keeping a drive up to par in case it crashes and you wanna recover data from it, but NTFS
is a pretty good filesystem and recovery is good despite defrag.


IIRC the way SSD's work keeps everything fragmented on them anyway.

artherd
12-20-2009, 4:38 PM
Modern SSDs are now in use in traffic-intense DB backed systems. They still do wear, but at rates that don't matter anymore.

The technology simply got better. A lot better.