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philobeddoe
12-10-2009, 10:17 AM
I've been here for about two years, do a lot of reading, but very little posting.

I have a question for the licensed dealers, and could use a little enlightenment.

I've been trolling the WTS forum looking for a Glock 26 and noticed a good deal of Romanian AK's and AR15's for sale on the site for PPT.

I owned both before the "registration requirement," but do not own any now.

I'm aware that CA law is awfully ambiguous, emphasis on awful, so I know it's hard to get clear answers, and when I call CA DOJ, I rarely get an answer I can comfortably rely upon but ...

what's the story with these transfers?

I was under the impression that AK's and clones with detachable magazines and hand-grips extending below the trigger group were verboten and non-transferable, and that they must be registered as assault rifles - and that the registration period has expired.

The prices look great, the rifles look great, ... I don't see any "bullet buttons" or other ambiguously "legal" features that would waive the rifles into compliance.

Can someone explain to me what's going on here?

I'd like to legally get in on the action (yes, I know I can get a Saiga, even tho CA DOJ won't tell me they're "legal"), but what I'd really like to do is reacquire my rifles, or buy some new ones.

Let me know if I need to post up some links to the WTS ads from our marketplace forum.

Thanks in advance.

- philo

Cokebottle
12-10-2009, 10:37 AM
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/hgflowchart.pdf
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf

Those 3 links give you the bulk of the information you need to know.

Short version, the list of banned receivers was frozen in early 2007. Any unlisted receiver is legal if the gun is "featureless".
The clincher is, "detachable magazine".
If a device is installed that requires a tool (of any type) to release the magazine, then the gun does not have a detachable magazine. It is then a fixed magazine, and not subject to the basic assault weapons laws.

Rifles that are being referred to as "AK47" are not actually AK47s. They use AK47 parts, but the rifle is built on a home-made or an off-list receiver. They would more accurately be referred to as "AK47 clone" or "AK47 style" guns, as the receiver is what is classified as the "firearm" and these guns are generally built on domestic receivers, with enough additional domestic parts so as to be compliant with federal 922(r) laws.

philobeddoe
12-10-2009, 11:12 AM
thanks, but i don't understand how this is compliant, but if it is, i want it ...


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=247960



or this one ... and i had two just like it, unfired, same condition ...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=246456


or this one ...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=244432





i'm not trying to be a wise guy, i've looked at the flow charts, i've read the laws, i've spoken with CA DOJ and my local FFL

but i'm missing something, obviously

Cokebottle
12-10-2009, 11:46 AM
thanks, but i don't understand how this is compliant, but if it is, i want it ...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=247960
Noveske N6 Lower. It's an Armalite upper, but the upper doesn't matter. The Noveske N6 lower is not a listed receiver.

It's not listed in the ad, but I would assume that it has a bullet button.
The 10/20 mag is a 20rd mag that's been blocked to limit capacity to 10rds. The 20rd "rebuild kits" are disassembled 20rd mags. You can't assemble them unless you also block them to 10rds, or keep them for use in a free state, and disassemble prior to bringing them back into CA.
or this one ... and i had two just like it, unfired, same condition ...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=246456
You can see the magazine lock on the bottom of the trigger guard.
This ad doesn't list the manufacturer of the receiver, but I don't see any dimples above the magwell, so it's probably a Century WASR build. These are Romanian demilled AK's remanufactured here by Century.
It wouldn't hurt to shoot the seller a PM to verify the manufacturer's markings on the receiver, but it's nearly impossible to import a Romanian AK that has not been demilled, and if it were, I don't think Henderson would have agreed to install the trigger group and return an illegal weapon to a California resident.
or this one ...
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=244432
Same as above, except in this one, you can see that the receiver is marked "Lancaster, Goodyear AZ". Lancaster and Century are probably two of the largest remanufacturers of AKM style rifles in the country.
i'm not trying to be a wise guy, i've looked at the flow charts, i've read the laws, i've spoken with CA DOJ and my local FFL
Local FFLs are generally not the best source of information, particularly WRT to off-list receivers, unless they actually stock "black rifles".
Local shops that don't stock black rifles will cringe at the mention of another local shop who does, and go on for a half hour spouting that they are selling illegal guns.
If that were the case, they wouldn't be in business (or out of jail) long.
Gun grabbers like to refer to "loopholes" that are used to allow these rifles to be built and sold... but they aren't "loopholes" at all. There are three lists of banned receivers... one is the original general list, the 2nd is AR specific, and the 3rd is AK specific.
If a receiver is not on any of the 3 lists, it's not a banned firearm.
If a receiver is on any of the 3 lists, it is a banned firearm and unlawful unless registered prior to the expiration of the ban's grace period.
There is a period at the end of those sentences.

For receivers that are not on the list, the legal definition of "assault weapon" is defined by the 6 "evil features" listed in PC 12276.1(a).
12276.1(a)(1) specifically states "Centerfire and detachable magazine and one of the following (evil features list)"
If the rifle does not have a detachable magazine, then 12276.1(a)(1) does not apply. 12276.1(a)(2) deals with guns that have a fixed magazine, and the only restriction is that the fixed magazine shall be limited to a 10rd capacity. 12276.1(a)(3) is redundant to the SBR regulations, though California's minimum is 30", while the BATF minimum is 26".

By using a magazine lock, you convert a gun from having a detachable magazine to having a fixed magazine, thus relieving it from the prohibition on having the "evil features" listed in 12276.1(a)(1).

ke6guj
12-10-2009, 11:54 AM
none of those three rifles have "detachable magazines" due to them having a maglock. Since they don't have detachable magazines, they can have the "evil features".

philobeddoe
12-10-2009, 11:58 AM
I truly appreciate the detailed and thoughtful response. Thank you.

Cokebottle
12-10-2009, 11:59 AM
So are you going to buy the AR or the AK?
I'd get both ;)