Hmm why is the saiga illegal?

[Charliegone]

I know that it is similar to the ak in action, but it cannot really take ak mags unless the receiver or mag is modified. So why is it illegal? If it cannot take ak mags, than it really isn't a kasler vs lockyer gun, is it? What do you guys think?

[dwtt]

The Saiga is listed on the "series" list of AK rifles.
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/infobuls/kaslist.pdf

[6172crew]

I know that it is similar to the ak in action, but it cannot really take ak mags unless the receiver or mag is modified. So why is it illegal? If it cannot take ak mags, than it really isn't a kasler vs lockyer gun, is it? What do you guys think?

I think we need a guy like you working in the DOJ.

True story: 1996 or so myself along with 3 other Marines were detained for shooting on a fire break, we had to pick up the rifles the next Monday but were told the Colt "sporter" needed to be reg'd before pickup. As it turns out the sporter wasnt listed and the DOJ called OCSD and told them to give the rifle back or they would ripp the SD a new ***.

Those were the days:rolleyes:

BTW the the OCSD guys btried to get us for tresspassing and all of us got off and the 2 brothers are still serving in my Marine Corps and LASD respectfully.:cool:

[Anonymous Coward]

The Saiga is listed on the "series" list of AK rifles.
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/infobuls/kaslist.pdf

It seems like with the recent turn of events regarding "series" weapons not being on the list (see atherd's letter), if it doesn't say "Kalashikov USA Saiga" it might not be an AW.

It would actually be easier to transfer, because it's a completed rifle that fails the feature test (because it doesn't have an evil feature).

[Charliegone]

Well, I know that EAA imports the saiga from Izmash, but it is not stated (well from what I can see on the receiver) that it is a kalashikov USA rifle. Neither can they take ak-47 mags without some modifications. Also if I remember correctly, doesn't the Harrot vs. King county say that it has to be listed under manufacturer and name, etc. Anyone willing to confirm this with the doj. Heck it would be nice to have an EAA saiga.

PS I know the one in this auction in this format is illegal, but I'm talking about the legit ones.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=40455757

[Charliegone]

Also I found this:

http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/Step_1.htm

As you can see it requires significant work to convert it to accept ak mags and into ak configuration. Hmm wonder if we can convince the doj to accept it?

[shopkeep]

That guy is AWESOME. That site just goes to show exactly what I argued at the SB-23 hearing at one point. Simply that despite any ban you may try, the parts and technology is out there. It doesn't take a sophisticated factory to make an AK-47, just the plans, a machine shop in a garage or basement, and the know-how.

I've actually heard of people stamping their own AK recievers... do homemade stamped recievers also fall into the bans?

[Charliegone]

Also..I noticed that the romak 3 was NOT on the list. I know there is a place where they sell kits for them and they sell the receiver as well. Also I believe they cannot take ak magazines, even if they look like ak's I believe they are not. What do you think about this?

Here is a another gb auction for something similar:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=40049384

[bwiese]

It seems like with the recent turn of events regarding "series" weapons not being on the list (see atherd's letter), if it doesn't say "Kalashikov USA Saiga" it might not be an AW.

It would actually be easier to transfer, because it's a completed rifle that fails the feature test (because it doesn't have an evil feature).

Correct in general. Harrott v Kings County set standards for promulgation/listing of Kasler-banned "series" weapons - manufacturer and model, etc.

But we're playing some real 'inside baseball' word games here....

While the AR15 flavors of receivers/guns are domestically made and the mfgr and model# are pretty clear, apparently in the AK world the manufacturer and importer/distributor sometimes seem to be interchangable - and/or the mfgr is poorly documented. (After all, Kalashnikov USA is not the mfgr of the Saiga, it's merely the importer. It's manufacturer is probably the commercial arm of the Tula Arsenal, etc. To me, this in & of itself compromises the integrity of the DOJ Roster of AR15 and AK Series Weapons. But that's a separate fight.)

Additionally, I believe some AK designs from the same mfgr have been imported by different importer/distributors. So you might run into some danger that XYZ Co's Saiga that you think is 'off list' could possibly be same gun as Kalashnikov USA's Saiga - even if DOJ didn't actually think so and allowed this. It's just a bit too close for comfort.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

[bwiese]

That guy is AWESOME. That site just goes to show exactly what I argued at the SB-23 hearing at one point. Simply that despite any ban you may try, the parts and technology is out there. It doesn't take a sophisticated factory to make an AK-47, just the plans, a machine shop in a garage or basement, and the know-how.

I've actually heard of people stamping their own AK recievers... do homemade stamped recievers also fall into the bans?


Well, Artherd's/Ben's triumphal success notwithstanding, this stuff just helps skirt around Kasler classification of AR/AK 'series'. But it doesn't invalidate whatsoever SB23 'by features' ban. Still can't have pistol grip + detachable mag, etc. That's why SB23 was written in the first place, and (from a legal standpoint, just examining its goals vs results) it was fairly well-constructed.

It might be helpful for those that want stripper-clip fed guns a la CaliFALs or additional flavors of something like the FAB10. But some folks that manage to get these off-list AR/AK receivers will perhaps bring trouble upon themselves by having a pistol grip on a receiver without a 10rd mag affixed.

The only real help will be for Saiga-like designs which share the same form/function topology as the legal M1A. These are conventional semiauto rifle designs that run fine without pistol grips, and are designed not to have pistol grips. (Would be nice if they changed to an AR bolt/locking lug design - would prob really enhance accuracy.)

The other "benefit" is that - depending on how you read some of the supporting text in Artherd's letter sent by DOJ - there also may be future AW registration window, if they decided to update the AR/AK Harrott Roster. This would affect those who'd managed to legally acquire non-Harrott-listed AR/AK receivers; the updating of this list will create new 'by name' guns. Once declared as AWs and then reg'd as such, evil features can be added.

I will have to look into this latter situation further. There's likely differences between adding/declaring AR/AK "Roster" guns vs. adding other guns (like Imbel, DSA, etc. FAL vs. banned true FN FAL).


Bill Wiese
San Jose

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct in general. Harrott v Kings County set standards for promulgation/listing of Kasler-banned "series" weapons - manufacturer and model, etc.

But we're playing some real 'inside baseball' word games here....

While the AR15 flavors of receivers/guns are domestically made and the mfgr and model# are pretty clear, apparently in the AK world the manufacturer and importer/distributor sometimes seem to be interchangable - and/or the mfgr is poorly documented. (After all, Kalashnikov USA is not the mfgr of the Saiga, it's merely the importer. It's manufacturer is probably the commercial arm of the Tula Arsenal, etc. To me, this in & of itself compromises the integrity of the DOJ Roster of AR15 and AK Series Weapons. But that's a separate fight.)

Additionally, I believe some AK designs from the same mfgr have been imported by different importer/distributors. So you might run into some danger that XYZ Co's Saiga that you think is 'off list' could possibly be same gun as Kalashnikov USA's Saiga - even if DOJ didn't actually think so and allowed this. It's just a bit too close for comfort.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

I think we're saying the same thing.

The list contains named Saiga rifles in various forms ; e.g. "Norinco Hunter Rifle" (here it's actually manufacturer+model) and "Kalashnikov USA Saiga" (which is importer+model as you say) and so on.

I don't see this as something precluding protection under Harrot. It's up to the DOJ if they want to use the importer or the manufacturer. But that doesn't mean you cannot find a rifle that's not covered under both.

If I were to send a letter to the DOJ asking about a certain Saiga, it would be prudent to check if either the manufacturer or importer is on the current list.

IMO the more research you do and the more you elaborate your position the more likely you'll get a positive response.

[Charliegone]

Does anyone know what qualifies as an Kasler vs. Lockyer weapon? Let me be more specific. Does it have to take ak magazines in order to qualify as an AW? Does it have to have similar buttstock, trigger mech. etc to be qualified as an AW?

[bwiese]

Does anyone know what qualifies as an Kasler vs. Lockyer weapon? Let me be more specific. Does it have to take ak magazines in order to qualify as an AW? Does it have to have similar buttstock, trigger mech. etc to be qualified as an AW?

See my other recent posts on Harrott decision that supercedes Kasler in certain aireas, and my post abou DOJ adding guns to list.

The AR or AK 'series' gun must be specifically identified by DOJ and placed by name/model on the DOJ's Roster of AR15 and AK Series Weapons, and updated in the Calif Code of Regulations (these two will track each other) to be banned.

Otherwise if the gun is not specifically named in detail on this list -- and does not have offending Type III features (pistol grip, etc.) then it's legal.

Getting an FFL to get you one may be troublesome since they tend to be a shy lot w/regard to DOJ matters and don't wanna push the envelope.

If the labelling is reasonably different - that is, different importer/ manufacturer even if model is "Saiga" (which may apply a bit generically to a more or less traditionally-styled pistol-grip-free rifle w/AK action) then you have a chance.

Minor hyphenation or spelling differences, etc. would not form substantively different name (I believe some clown awhile back was trying to play off "HK-91" vs "HK91").



Bill Wiese
San Jose

[M1A Rifleman]

I seem to be behind on my legal knowledge - but where are the links to these decisions mentioned? Has something on AW's been recently settled in our favor?

[bwiese]

M1A Rifleman...

I seem to be behind on my legal knowledge - but where are the links to these decisions mentioned? Has something on AW's been recently settled in our favor?

This whole brouhaha has been re-stirred since member Artherd (Ben) here managed, after lots of writing and certified letters, to get DOJ approval - or rather, acknowledgement that his purchase is not violating any laws! - of a JP Rifles' CTR-02:

See this thread which inclides scan of his letter from DOJ:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=24777


This gun is a high-end AR15-type design and was imported into CA with a fixed (screwed down, but not glued down or welded) 10rd magazine by a regular FFL.

[This is a major triumphal achievement, especially since it's now known that Alison Merilees (Deputy Atty General/Firearms) is in fact very antigun and seems to have (helped?) draft Jack Scott's AB498 (?) when she worked for him as a consultant - this is the semiauto 'safety' bill mandating loaded chamber indicators and useless mag disconnect safeties.]

[BTW Note that this fixed mag cannot be removed for service if pistol grip is on rifle, else you're getting into an illegal Type III AW setup. If work needs to be done on such a gun, take the pistol grip off first.]

The significance here is this is really the first acknowledgment by DOJ that 2001 Harrott v Kings County exists and plays against August 2000 Kasler v Lockyer decision. Thus the few bare AR and AK receivers not listed on DOJ's Roster of AR15 and AK Series Weapons (and in identical list in Calif Code of Regulations) are not illegal to possess as long as they are not configured into Type III 'by feature' AWs. (That is, don't possess the receiver alone w/a pistol grip attached!)

The DOJ, by itself and without court intervention, can identify and add new AR and AK 'series' weapons to this list. (If too far afield, the DOJ's addition could be challenged, and this was discussed in Harrott.

Once promulgated in preparation for addition to list, these ARs/AKs are considered assault weapons and a 90 day registration window opens. Since they are now AWs, all evil features may be added.

By contrast, the DOJ cannot add other non-AR/non-AK weapons. The DOJ/Atty General must go to certain superior courts and petition for temporary and then permanent declaration of a given gun as being an assault weapon. This is a more involved process than that for ARs/AKs

I've done a bit of analysis here in this thread:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=24885 ...

specifically these posts

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=178314
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=178543



Bill Wiese
San Jose

[M1A Rifleman]

Thanks -

Her letter stating "may be deemded an AW in the near future" is alarming. I did not think they were still working on this stuff on their own unless pressed. Hmm, I wonder when they will decide to order the turn-in of AW's???

[bwiese]

Thanks -
Her letter stating "may be deemded an AW in the near future" is alarming. I did not think they were still working on this stuff on their own unless pressed. Hmm, I wonder when they will decide to order the turn-in of AW's???

Don't be alarmed. That's actually useful. Just means time to get going.

If something gets declared as an AW - either by DOJ adding it to AR/AK Roster, or getting superior court sanction to declare non-AR/non-AK gun as an assault weapon.

In either case, once this happens, a 90 day registration period for said gun opens. You file your paperwork just like before. Once this is done, you can add evil features.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

[Charliegone]

Thanks Bill. That cleared up some things. Still I don't know why the Saiga is illegal. It can't really take ak mags unless the receiver and magazines are modified so why is it even a banned weapon? It isn't really an ak.:rolleyes: Oh well. At least the saiga 100 looks legal.:D

[bwiese]

Thanks Bill. That cleared up some things. Still I don't know why the Saiga is illegal. It can't really take ak mags unless the receiver and magazines are modified so why is it even a banned weapon? It isn't really an ak.:rolleyes: Oh well. At least the saiga 100 looks legal.:D

Taking AK mags is apparently irrelevant.

Because when the DOJ rolled out its 1st Roster of AR And AK Series Weapons they were grabbing the AK-like rifles they could find. I think there may have been various Saiga iterations, dunno. Bottom line is that these took detachable magazines, might have a pistol grip mountable (?) and had an AK action/gas system etc.

Don't expect sense from the gov't. For example, the original Roberti-Roos AWCA list included Springfield Armory issued BM59s (the Beretta BM59 was an M14 / M1A predecessor - essentially a Garand w/detachable mag).

Will take a look at Saiga 100. That is certainly not banned, esp if imported/mfgd by other than "Kalashnikov USA".

Bill Wiese
San Jose

[Pryde]

Someone might stand to make a lot of money if they made Saiga type CA legal receivers that you could home build with a bought AK parts kit.

[Charliegone]

Taking AK mags is apparently irrelevant.

Because when the DOJ rolled out its 1st Roster of AR And AK Series Weapons they were grabbing the AK-like rifles they could find. I think there may have been various Saiga iterations, dunno. Bottom line is that these took detachable magazines, might have a pistol grip mountable (?) and had an AK action/gas system etc.

Don't expect sense from the gov't. For example, the original Roberti-Roos AWCA list included Springfield Armory issued BM59s (the Beretta BM59 was an M14 / M1A predecessor - essentially a Garand w/detachable mag).

Will take a look at Saiga 100. That is certainly not banned, esp if imported/mfgd by other than "Kalashnikov USA".

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Let me help you out Bill.:D

Heres what it looks like. Certain doesn't look like a an ak at all.

http://www.raacfirearms.com/images/p_100.jpg

Also do you think I can convince them to drop the saiga from the list. I think I can provide sufficient evidence for them to do so. :D

Also, the flashhider isn't really standard by looking at other pics.

[saki302]

The difficult part about making a saiga from a parts kit is the trigger. You can make a SB23 legal AK by leaving off the pistol grip, but you must have a monstrous hand to reach the trigger while holding the stock. I was playing around with a Regged AK, and found I could shoot one in this configuration, but just barely, and I have big paws.

The true Saiga design uses a wholly different trigger setup- the stock trigger is flat on the bottom, and it uses a lever and a secondary trigger to actuate the 'normal' trigger.

If anyone wants to experiment, there are literally tons of Saiga parts floating around since the Federal AW ban expired. People have converted them back to 'real' AK's, and are giving away their parts for cheap.

-Dave

[bwiese]

Let me help you out Bill.:D

Heres what it looks like. Certain doesn't look like a an ak at all.

[image snipped]

Also do you think I can convince them to drop the saiga from the list. I think I can provide sufficient evidence for them to do so. :D

Also, the flashhider isn't really standard by looking at other pics.


You can never get something _dropped_ from the list.

But who MAKES and who IMPORTS this Saiga 100? If it's not a Kalashnikov USA Saiga, but an Ishvesk (?) Saiga 100 this gun is CA legal.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

[Charliegone]

http://www.raacfirearms.com/rifles.htm

Heres the website. So I guess its legal.

[bwiese]

http://www.raacfirearms.com/rifles.htm
Heres the website. So I guess its legal.

Thanks. Nice guns.

I'm not sure if "Russian American Firearms Co." is importer or mfgr. But ask about the exact text of the sideplates/serial# areas. If it doesn't say "Kalashnikov USA Saiga" you're good to go.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

[50 Freak]

I'd be interested in the 30.06 version. Wonder if I can have it made to fit a BAR mag.....for when I move out of this state of course....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Charliegone]

Thanks. Nice guns.

I'm not sure if "Russian American Firearms Co." is importer or mfgr. But ask about the exact text of the sideplates/serial# areas. If it doesn't say "Kalashnikov USA Saiga" you're good to go.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Great. I will ask them.:D

[dwtt]

Great. I will ask them.:D
Let us all know what the DOJ says. I have an old catalog from EAA in Florida with some info on the Saiga rifle and shotguns. I would love to get a Saiga rifle.

[Charliegone]

Actually, I will send a letter to our favorite doj rep Merilees. Hopefully I can get a quick response.:D

[berg]

Maybe this would be a better alternative for a detachable mag .308?
http://pdmall.com/1/REMINGTON/7400SEMI308.jpeg

http://www.forthehunt.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=40652793

[Kenshin]

this threa left me confused. Is the Saiga 100 legal or not?

[PanzerAce]

Also..I noticed that the romak 3 was NOT on the list. I know there is a place where they sell kits for them and they sell the receiver as well. Also I believe they cannot take ak magazines, even if they look like ak's I believe they are not. What do you think about this?

Here is a another gb auction for something similar:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=40049384


that is correct, they CANNOT take AK mags (x54R for the ROMAK 3 vs. x39 for the AK). I have been considering purchasing one, but I do not know what the stock is considered. That seems to me to be the only 'AW' feature. actually, charlie, if you are going to ask about the saiga, could you also ask specifically about the ROMAK-3/PSL? I know in one letter that (I think it was you who sent it) was posted, they claimed that the ROMAK 991 was the same as the 3 (NOT true).

[Kenshin]

http://www.calgunlaws.com/modules.php?name=FAQ&myfaq=yes&id_cat=1&categories=Assault+Weapons+-+general#30

[Charliegone]

I hope you can convince someone who has them to sell it to you. If anyone has anyone, please, let me know!:D

[crs1]

What about the Benelli? Is in not made overseas? The Saiga 100 looks like a similar configuration. How much $$ for the Saigas compared to the Benelli?

[Charliegone]

saigas typically run about 300 to 500 bucks.