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View Full Version : DROS time frame versus A&D book entry


SDProtection
12-09-2009, 2:23 PM
ok, the "adding a shotgun to a DROS" thread gave me a headache but a very important discussion was lost in the noise (no disrespect to any of the parties involved).

so with that said, and as I still consider myself a newbie in this FFL world, I would like to reopen this discussion to better understand the options moving forward. Hopefully we will all stay on point....:)

Here was the post and reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobshouse View Post
...and God help you if your log reflects that you received the added firearm 2 days after you DROSed the first.
(Tenpercent Firearms Replied)
I have guns come in on the same day they leave. Numerous dealers start long gun DROS before the firearm arrives.


That is my topic and question. I have orders coming in for rifles and would love to be able to fill out paperwork with clients immediately and have the 10day start right then. But I have been waiting for the rifle to show so I can get it into my bound book.....so, how is everyone doing this? can you point me to the supporting facts as well?

Thanks!

kemasa
12-09-2009, 3:07 PM
You can start the DROS and have the firearm arrive later. Personally, I would make sure that the count that is submitted on the DROS be accurate and only be reduced, unless you make a rare mistake.

Personally, I would prefer to not submit the DROS until the firearms arrive since if there is a problem with the firearm, you are working on a timeframe. If the person understand that it might cost them the DROS fee if things don't work out correctly, then it might be somewhat acceptable. What happens if the firearm does not arrive within 30 days? What if you get inspected and are asked where the firearm is (you can show that it has not yet arrived)? Personally, I prefer to avoid the problem and just wait.

The main thing to remember is that you might have to explain things. So the question is whether this is worth it to you. Your customers are not paying extra for this and so you are really getting nothing from this. It is important to not allow your customers to get you to do things which causes you problems.

halifax
12-09-2009, 8:31 PM
I personally have no problem with starting the DROS on long guns before they arrive. Handguns, no, but long guns OK.

SDProtection
12-09-2009, 9:42 PM
I personally have no problem with starting the DROS on long guns before they arrive. Handguns, no, but long guns OK.

Is there something or somewhere you lean on to support this? I called CA DOJ twice and guess what.....I got two different answers! I agree with you and would make the arguement that the 10 day wait is on the person not the gun, so why not. But after all we are in the great state of confusion.....California.

halifax
12-10-2009, 5:10 AM
Is there something or somewhere you lean on to support this? I called CA DOJ twice and guess what.....I got two different answers! I agree with you and would make the arguement that the 10 day wait is on the person not the gun, so why not. But after all we are in the great state of confusion.....California.

Nope, its just me. I like to live on the edge :chris:



:D

tenpercentfirearms
12-10-2009, 6:47 AM
The key to this issue is there is nothing that prohibits you from starting the DROS early. Serial numbers are not required for long gun DROS. So you can start them whenever. You won't find where this is allowed, because the code doesn't say you can do it. The code doesn't say you can't do it.

Although you might not make an additional amount of money for doing this, you better believe when a customer can come into your place, order a gun, and while it is still back east at a wholesaler, start their ten days and pick it up ten days later, they are going to like your service and be back to buy more guns.

If anyone asks why guns were logged in during the ten day wait or even on the day of delivery, simply state you started the DROS for the customer when the firearm was ordered. End of discussion.

They are going to give you the excuse that if they look at your DROS forms and see you have guns started in DROS, but they aren't in the building, they might assume you already let the customer take them. This won't fly for me as my A&D book is accurate and you can clearly see I have not received the firearm yet. Additionally the purchaser still hasn't filled out these forms, so you can further tell the gun still hasn't left. If I was secretly letting guns go early, I would hide this 4473 and DROS and not even have it in my stack of paperwork still processing. Of course the idea that I would let a gun go early at the risk of losing my license and possible criminal charges for any amount of money is plain absurd.

Honestly, no one cares. Dealers have been doing this forever. The DOJ doesn't like it, but they know there is nothing they can do about it. The main thing is just do your paperwork right, don't let guns go early, don't let guns go after 30 days, and do your job. Little issues like this are not the reason we have to be gun dealers. They want to be able to do criminal traces and make sure prohibited persons don't get guns.

kemasa
12-10-2009, 9:13 AM
The waiting period is on the purchase of the firearm, which starts when the DROS is submitted. You can sell the firearm before you have it in your hands.

BTW, hiding the DROS would not do you any good since the CA DOJ would most likely come with a list of DROS which have been submitted. As you say, you can show that the firearm has not arrived, so clearly it was not delivered early.

A long time ago I was told that you could do the DROS before you received a handgun (but I think the DOJ sent a letter out about not doing this). The important thing was to ensure that you had the correct serial number, so you should have a photo of it. The problem was that many FFLs were submitting the DROS with fake serial numbers, then correcting it later, which is not acceptable.

If the firearm comes in damaged or ends up lost, then what do you do? As Wes says, if everything goes right, the customer will be happy and come back, but what if it goes wrong?

One fun thing about the 30 day limit is having a customer wait until near the limit with a firearm submitted in Feb. The BATF inspector said that I let a gun go past the 30 days, but I looked at it and said that it was Feb, which only had 28 days that year. She was looking only at the day of the month, which would be off with months with 31 days, as well as 28 day months :-).

tenpercentfirearms
12-11-2009, 7:03 AM
If the firearm comes in damaged or ends up lost, then what do you do? As Wes says, if everything goes right, the customer will be happy and come back, but what if it goes wrong?

Simple answer to that one. Once the 30 days expires, write "30 Days Expired" on the 4473 where the control number goes, write "30 Days Expired" on the DROS where the delivery time and date goes, and then put any gun or serial number you want on the form. No gun was delivered, so what does it matter what gun was going to be delivered?

You could also just leave the gun information blank. Now the ATF might not like this, but they did state at my audit that they wanted me to leave 36 date of delivery blank since I didn't deliver the gun. I was putting the date I cancelled out the transaction. They stated if I put a date, then it implies I was delivering something. So you could leave the gun data blank and state you didn't want to put gun data on a 4473 for a gun that never left the building (or entered it either!).

I think I have only once or twice had a customer not get his gun within 30 days. And I only think that. I very well might not have ever had that happen.

kemasa
12-11-2009, 12:37 PM
The paperwork is not the issue, the money for the DROS with respect to the customer could be an issue.

If the firearm is used and being shipped from another FFL, but turns out to be unacceptable, then do you think that the customer will want to pay the DROS fee?

halifax
12-11-2009, 3:04 PM
The paperwork is not the issue, the money for the DROS with respect to the customer could be an issue.

If the firearm is used and being shipped from another FFL, but turns out to be unacceptable, then do you think that the customer will want to pay the DROS fee?

Best to explain beforehand that if anything goes wrong, the $25 fee is not recoverable.

tenpercentfirearms
12-11-2009, 5:36 PM
Best to explain beforehand that if anything goes wrong, the $25 fee is not recoverable.

I always get money down before DROS and explain to them what happens if they don't pick up in 30 days. I usually get a good enough down payment if they decide never to come back again, I get some money for my time.

kemasa
12-12-2009, 9:59 AM
The issue is that you can end up with an unhappy customer, which is the opposite of the point of submitting the DROS early.

As you say, it is a good idea to get enough money up front and explain things to them. To me, it is generally not worth it to submit it early. Things happen, especially with Internet transfers (fraud, for example, false pictures, false description and the seller, a FFL, claimed it was just a simple mistake). It is easier to say that I don't do that :-).