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View Full Version : Help me make this Chinese SKS CA legal.


VegasND
12-06-2009, 1:25 PM
Here's a Chinese SKS I bought this morning. It's a Xinshidai made SKS marked 16.5 inch carbine with an aftermarket 30 round mag and missing the (presume spike) bayonet. Serial number is 816XXXX. Everything looks good on it, shiny bore, no rust, corrosion, or other remarkable damage. The only annoyance is the mag doesn't lock the bolt open after the last round -- I can remove the mag and push the lock up by hand, so I assume it's a magazine problem.

I checked the list and don't see this thing listed by name as not allowed in CA -- did I miss it? Beyond that, can I attach a bayonet (I'll bet I can find it) and a 10 round magazine and legally use this in CA? My ultimate plan is to make it my grandson's first centerfire rifle, and he does currently live in CA; that's a few years off, he's only begun with rimfires.
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss179/rtnpchpic/SKS7.jpg
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss179/rtnpchpic/SKS5.jpg
Help a guy out, you got any advice? If I can do this I'll need a 10 round mag and stripper clips, an appropriate bayonet, and whatever you can think of that I've forgotten.

bigcalidave
12-06-2009, 1:52 PM
Umm pretty sure detachable magazine sks is bad no matter what.

EBR Works
12-06-2009, 1:55 PM
A very nice weapon, however, "SKS w/ Detachable Magazine" is listed in appendix A here:

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

It's absolutely not legal in California in that configuration at this time. Enjoy it in your free state only.

IrishPirate
12-06-2009, 2:03 PM
keep it west of the NV/CA boarder until after we get our ruling. have some fun with it though.

bayonnettes are legal in PRK as far as i've been able to find...my M91/30 came with one, and M44's have attached flip out ones. you can find it....especially in your FREE state.

EBR Works
12-06-2009, 2:05 PM
keep it East of the NV/CA boarder until after we get our ruling. have some fun with it though.



Fixed it for ya!

thefinger
12-06-2009, 2:11 PM
It looks like that SKS could be made CA-legal by installing an original fixed, ten-round magazine. The detachable mag is a no-no due to the "SKS with detachable mag" language in the CA AWB.

If it were a Norinco SKS-D (which takes AK magazines) then you would be totally out-of-luck, because the SKS-D only takes detachable AK mags.

However, yours looks like a regular Norinco SKS with an aftermarket duckbill mag, which means it can be converted back to a fixed ten-round mag easily. There are tons of Norinco SKS rifles with the original fixed magazines in CA, and they're totally legal as long as you don't ever run detachable mags.

If you want to run detachable mags on an SKS-style rifle, then you can get a Yugo M59 or M59/66 and run detachable bags. The reason you can do this is that the Yugo M59 and 59/66 rifles are not technically "SKS" rifles. They are just copies. The Yugo M59 and 59/66 are the OLL's of SKS-style rifles.

PS: The bayo is OK too.

gidddy169
12-06-2009, 2:11 PM
Put the fixed 10 round mag back on it and you are good to go. That looks like one of those duckbill aftermarket magazines.

Looks like you beat me to it thefinger. You could also get an Albanian sks and run the duckbill magazines I think as long as you are 922r compliant.

Kemp3
12-06-2009, 2:12 PM
I have a friend who owns one with black synthetic stock , they added a alan screw behind the mag release. it makes it so the lever doesnt work, as far as we know its legal now with a fixed mag and 10 round capacity.

VegasND
12-06-2009, 2:35 PM
Thanks all! That's pretty much what I had hoped to hear. Putting the fixed 10 round mag on is no problem, I've only had a couple of SKS rifles and they used the fixed mag with stripper clips. I'll get it into shape, and hope the CA legal situation improves. If it doesn't, it will become my grandson's first rifle in legal form in a couple of years. If, as I hope, CA law changes for the better, I'll have other choices.

bohoki
12-06-2009, 3:29 PM
If it were a Norinco SKS-D (which takes AK magazines) then you would be totally out-of-luck, because the SKS-D only takes detachable AK mags.


could one use say an ak maglock on the sks d with an ak 10 rounder?

Jpach
12-06-2009, 3:32 PM
Isnt having a bayonet a no-no on Chinese SKSs? Unless it was on it before some date or something like that?

NeoWeird
12-06-2009, 3:37 PM
Isnt having a bayonet a no-no on Chinese SKSs? Unless it was on it before some date or something like that?

Yes, I forget EXACTLY why but it has to do with importation and converting the firearm into a firearm not eligible to be imported. It's a no-no to put bayonets on these SKS. That's why Chinese SKSs are more commonly seen without the bayonet and why their bayonets are so friggin' cheap - they have litteraly boat loads of them with no real legal use.

Cokebottle
12-06-2009, 3:39 PM
I have a friend who owns one with black synthetic stock , they added a alan screw behind the mag release. it makes it so the lever doesnt work, as far as we know its legal now with a fixed mag and 10 round capacity.
Only as long as he never backs that screw out.
If it is required to back the screw out to release the mag for reloading, then as soon as the screw is backed out, the rifle becomes an AW. Top-load is the only legal way to go.

Cokebottle
12-06-2009, 3:42 PM
Isnt having a bayonet a no-no on Chinese SKSs? Unless it was on it before some date or something like that?
The bayo was a part of Clinton's federal AW ban which expired.
California has never addressed the issue of a bayo being an "evil feature".

NeoWeird
12-06-2009, 3:55 PM
The bayo was a part of Clinton's federal AW ban which expired.
California has never addressed the issue of a bayo being an "evil feature".

It making the weapon an assault weapon was not the issue; in fact if I remember right this was addressed BEFORE the assault weapon ban and is probably one of the key points that lead to the bayonet being added into the federal assault weapon ban.

If I remember right, it was late 80's very early 90's and the ATF started interpreting and/or enforcing new legislation that banned even more firearms from importation. One of those being military firearms with bayonets. Other SKS carbines, bolt guns, etc could come in because they met the definition of a Curio & Relic which exempt them from this little portion of law. Chinese SKSs are the exception though. Because China never gives up information about manufacturing specifics, as well as their blatant restamping, or stamping with identical serial numbers (or none at all), it is impossible to determine date of manufacture. Since China made the SKS well into the 1990s, and the ATF has never declared ALL Chinese SKS carbines as C&Rs, they are not eligible for C&R exempt status.

Chinese SKSs that were here at the time of this new legislation are grandfathered in, however any imported AFTER that date are not - regardless of when they were manufactured. Adding a bayonet to one of these non-grandfathered rifles is against the law. Period.

You MIGHT be able to get around it by replacing parts to make it domestic made, but I'm not sure on that one.

Cokebottle
12-06-2009, 4:18 PM
It's definitely a maze of inane laws.
Around '98 or '99, a friend showed me two nearly identical rifles from his safe.
He put one down (folding bayo) and said that it was "legal"
He then put one down with a detachable bayo, and said that it was a RAW.

VegasND
12-06-2009, 5:44 PM
The law appears to be even more convoluted than I thought. That's why I posted here; there are people here who can unravel the BS into something that one can follow (usually) even if it doesn't make sense.

So, assuming I can make this rifle CA compliant -- Does anyone have a line on the parts I'd need?

Original fixed magazine, paratroop style short cleaning rod, and a correct bayonet if possible. If necessary I won't put a bayonet on it. But, face it, I'll be giving this to a 12 year old; he'd love the bayonet!

NeoWeird
12-06-2009, 7:47 PM
As far as California is concerened, the SKS, the bayonet, and the cleaning rod (for now) are all legal. It's JUST the detachable portion of the magazine on an SKS rifle that is a no-no. If this were any other weapon, like an M1 carbine, Mini-14, M1A, etc it wouldn't be a problem. An SKS with a removable magazine is a specific no-no; there is no way around it.

So the magazine HAS to be fixed in place AND hold 10 or less rounds to be legal here in California. You COULD block the magazine to hold less than 10 rounds. It would need to be irreversable if you didn't own the magazine because the 2000 ban. If, however, you owned the magazine in California before the ban then all it would need is a block of wood in the magazine to inhibit loading more than 10 rounds. Limiting a high cap is not against the law; think of hunting shotguns with plugs. It's manufacturing NEW magazines that is the issue with making the modifications permanent.

The removable magazine, cleaning rod, and the SKS are legal on a federal level; it's the bayonet that is bad. This is a bit harder to get around because it's not the bayonet per se; it's the fact that it is specifically a Chinese SKS that you want to put a bayonet on. IF you wanted to put the bayonet on, I think the ONLY way to do it would be to convert the weapon to be a domestic made firearm. You would have to replace parts with US made parts. This in regards to the SKS I have little actual experience with but I do know that Tapco and some other companies make some US made parts, like pistons, fire control groups, etc. I would imagine that IF you converted enough parts to make the firearm domestic made you could legally add the bayonet as it would no longer be considered an imported weapon.

So assuming you replace enough parts to make it 922.r compliant AND you fix the magazine AND the magazine holds 10 or fewer cartridges (that's 10 + 1 in the chamber, not 9 + 1 in chamber to equal 10) then you would have a legal weapon to bring into California... as far as I know...

Jpach
12-06-2009, 9:00 PM
The bayo was a part of Clinton's federal AW ban which expired.
California has never addressed the issue of a bayo being an "evil feature".

Ya i know, apparently the bayo on a Chinese SKS is a no-no due to some strange law that none of us can cite at the moment. WTF! Its amazing how life is the way it is.

NeoWeird
12-06-2009, 11:04 PM
Alright, to squash the bug...

U.S.C. 922(r) states that..

It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter

So it's not legal to assemble any firearm, or any firearm identical to a firearm, that is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3). So what weapons are prohibited under 925(d)(3)?


The Attorney General shall authorize a firearm or ammunition to be imported or brought into the United States or any possession thereof if the firearm or ammunition... is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes...

So you can assemble from imported parts any firearm that is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes. For your information, "sporting purposes" is never defined - it is judged by the attorney general, which changes in time. So what is sporting this year may not be sporting the next year, and vice versa.

The other SKS rifles come in under 925(e)(1) which states:


The Attorney General shall authorize the importation of, by any licensed importer... all rifles and shotguns listed as curios or relics by the Attorney General

So other SKS carbines come in as C&Rs and are exempt from the need to meet sporting criteria. Chinese SKSs on the other hand are not, and can not, be adaquetly judged to meet the criteria of a Curio and/or Relic firearm persuant to 921(a)(13). That means Chinese SKSs alone can not be a C&R firearm, so the only way they can be imported is to come in as a sporting firearm. The Attorney General has held that bayonets are not suitable for sporting purposes so as of now it is illegal to assemble or import a Chinese SKS carbine with a bayonet. Those that were imported before this legislation are grandafathered in. All others are not.

So adding a bayonet to a Chinese SKS that does not have one already would violate 922(r) as you would be assembling a firearm that is prohibitied for importation under 925(d)(3).

I hope that clears up the confusion.

Cokebottle
12-06-2009, 11:23 PM
So adding a bayonet to a Chinese SKS that does not have one already would violate 922(r) as you would be assembling a firearm that is prohibitied for importation under 925(d)(3).

I hope that clears up the confusion.
It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter
Unless the imported parts count on the SKS can be reduced in the same manner that it is done on the AK series.

Receiver
Barrel
Barrel extensions
Mounting block (front trunion)
Muzzle attachment
Bolt
Bolt carrier
Operating rods (cocking handle)
Gas piston
Trigger housing
Trigger
Hammer
Sear
Disconnector
Buttstock
Pistol grip
Forearm, handguard
Magazine body
Follower
Floorplate

That's 20 "counted" parts... the SKS doesn't have all 20, so those automatically come off of the list.
If the total import count can be reduced to 10 or less, then it no longer meets the definition of "assembled with foreign parts", and the "unsporting" bayo may be installed.

SJgunguy24
12-07-2009, 1:28 AM
could one use say an ak maglock on the sks d with an ak 10 rounder?

No thats banned by name. The SKS-D and M are banned by name and any SKS with detachable mags are AW's.
If one has a Yugo 59/66, that is not an SKS and is the same as any other OLL