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View Full Version : I知 considering a 37mm HAVOC


Gregchico
12-06-2009, 7:31 AM
http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=77_80&products_id=132

I’m just looking for some fun.

Has anybody used one?
How hard was it to make your own chalk rounds (or something that “poofed” upon impact)?
Any advice?

D53
12-06-2009, 7:36 AM
Honestly, i think they look bad*****. My buddy had a Cobray flare launcher on his AR and I wanted to shoot it so bad, but to be honest, unless you go out to open land or the dessert a lot, spending the money ( unless you have disposable income) on a novelty item like that really isn't worth it. But like I said, if you have the extra cash and the place to use it, go for it.

8200rpm
12-06-2009, 7:41 AM
Donate that money to fight malaria in developing countries. Or, spend it on booze and strippers.

The Director
12-06-2009, 8:59 AM
Donate that money to fight malaria in developing countries. Or, spend it on booze and strippers.

:rofl2:

zhyla
12-06-2009, 11:43 AM
Hey... why doesn't somebody sell a 12ga flare gun like this? Could be useful for... uh... all those 12ga flares.

Group B
12-06-2009, 12:37 PM
Or, spend it on booze and strippers.

Dude, its hookers and blow...

Josh3239
12-06-2009, 12:45 PM
Hey... why doesn't somebody sell a 12ga flare gun like this? Could be useful for... uh... all those 12ga flares.

Just get an adaptor and you can use your 12 gauge flares.

Hayashi Killian
12-06-2009, 1:29 PM
There's adapters for 37mm launchers that can use those oddball 26.5mm rounds, as well as 12ga flares.

A 37mm launcher is one of the best thrills you can have with your pants on, bar having an actual DD. It's expensive, but you can make dummy/smoke rounds for fairly cheap.

DREADNOUGHT78
12-06-2009, 1:51 PM
I like mine I almost sold it but deceided against it because of how cheap I got it for and it is way to much to replace. I have a Cobray 37MM.

PRKArms
12-06-2009, 2:28 PM
We like launchers.... :D

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u115/Ratduster77/PICT2575.jpg

cmaynes
12-06-2009, 6:09 PM
Non-signalling rounds including Chalk rounds would be illegal in a signal gun. It is a pain in the butt.... those are only permitted for DD's.

You can shoot flares though.... (out at sea I guess, everywhere else would be a fire hazard)

BigBamBoo
12-06-2009, 6:44 PM
.............

Gregchico
12-06-2009, 7:22 PM
Non-signalling rounds including Chalk rounds would be illegal in a signal gun. It is a pain in the butt.... those are only permitted for DD's.

You can shoot flares though.... (out at sea I guess, everywhere else would be a fire hazard)

OK, I'm going to have to do some more research then. I "read on the internet" that smoke and chalk were ok. I'm not looking for trouble, just a little more fun.
Which three letter agency's website would have the info? I did a few google searches and I'm getting conflicting information.

supersonic
12-06-2009, 7:23 PM
I just thought of what a friggin' NIGHTMARE weapon you would have there if you had one of those chemical sprayers on your back full of pressure & filled with gasoline. You spray your 'assailant' first; then you launch a 37mm flare at 'em....center of mass!!! Pretty wicked, eh?:cool:

Clarence
12-07-2009, 4:04 AM
Hi all.

We've recently begun making and selling 37mm launchers. We are here in CT but ship nationwide. Check out out site www.BatesAndDittus.com.

We are also trying to generate awareness and interest in 37mm launchers and related stuff so we bought 37mm.com (which was dormant) and are working to get it dusted off and functional again. That site will also cover 40mm products and will have an interesting section on 37mm artillery with a really great section on projectiles.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Incitatus/Launcher/IMG_4555.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Incitatus/Launcher/IMG_4599.jpg

Yes, I understand that lasers and sights are a bit superfluous on a flare launcher but, IMHO, such things look cool and this is for fun (largely) right?:D

If you have questions or suggestions or <blush> compliments, send them along.

Also, we are looking for distributors. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated.

D53
12-07-2009, 5:55 AM
those look like a tacted out M79, pretty cool conversation piece. good luck with your ventures.

Quiet
12-07-2009, 6:37 AM
I'm thinking about getting a 37mm flare launcher to attach to my AK pistol. :p



AFAIK...
The 37mm flare launchers are legal due to PC 120301(a)(4).
Was told only signal type rounds are legal with the 37mm flare launcher.


Penal Code 12301
(a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons:
(1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.
(2) Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any launching device therefor.
(3) Any weapon of a caliber greater than 0.60 caliber which fires fixed ammunition, or any ammunition therefor, other than a shotgun (smooth or rifled bore) conforming to the definition of a "destructive device" found in subsection (b) of Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, shotgun ammunition (single projectile or shot), antique rifle, or an antique cannon. For purposes of this section, the term "antique cannon" means any cannon manufactured before January 1, 1899, which has been rendered incapable of firing or for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. The term "antique rifle" means a firearm conforming to the definition of an "antique firearm" in Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(4) Any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device of a diameter greater than 0.60 inch, or any launching device therefor, and any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, other than the propellant for that device, except those devices as are designed primarily for emergency or distress signaling purposes.
(5) Any breakable container which contains a flammable liquid with a flashpoint of 150 degrees Fahrenheit or less and has a wick or similar device capable of being ignited, other than a device which is commercially manufactured primarily for the purpose of illumination.
(6) Any sealed device containing dry ice (CO2) or other chemically reactive substances assembled for the purpose of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction.
(b) The term "explosive," as used in this chapter, shall mean any explosive defined in Section 12000 of the Health and Safety Code.

Gregchico
12-07-2009, 7:13 AM
OK, chalk is out. Thank you for providing the PC.


I'm thinking about getting a 37mm flare launcher to attach to my AK pistol. :p



AFAIK...
The 37mm flare launchers are legal due to PC 120301(a)(4).
Was told only signal type rounds are legal with the 37mm flare launcher.


Penal Code 12301
(a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons:
(1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.
(2) Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any launching device therefor.
(3) Any weapon of a caliber greater than 0.60 caliber which fires fixed ammunition, or any ammunition therefor, other than a shotgun (smooth or rifled bore) conforming to the definition of a "destructive device" found in subsection (b) of Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, shotgun ammunition (single projectile or shot), antique rifle, or an antique cannon. For purposes of this section, the term "antique cannon" means any cannon manufactured before January 1, 1899, which has been rendered incapable of firing or for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. The term "antique rifle" means a firearm conforming to the definition of an "antique firearm" in Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(4) Any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device of a diameter greater than 0.60 inch, or any launching device therefor, and any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, other than the propellant for that device, except those devices as are designed primarily for emergency or distress signaling purposes.
(5) Any breakable container which contains a flammable liquid with a flashpoint of 150 degrees Fahrenheit or less and has a wick or similar device capable of being ignited, other than a device which is commercially manufactured primarily for the purpose of illumination.
(6) Any sealed device containing dry ice (CO2) or other chemically reactive substances assembled for the purpose of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction.
(b) The term "explosive," as used in this chapter, shall mean any explosive defined in Section 12000 of the Health and Safety Code.

xibunkrlilkidsx
12-07-2009, 7:16 AM
Non-signalling rounds including Chalk rounds would be illegal in a signal gun. It is a pain in the butt.... those are only permitted for DD's.

You can shoot flares though.... (out at sea I guess, everywhere else would be a fire hazard)

ahahahaha. yes they can be a fire hazard ive never set the desert on fire before, all be it only a couple of shrubbery. and they freaking bounce like hell. shot one into a berm 50yds away and it ended up going 50 ft or so in the air.

Clarence
12-07-2009, 7:25 AM
those look like a tacted out M79, pretty cool conversation piece. good luck with your ventures.


Thank you.

The Director
12-07-2009, 7:27 AM
Hi all.

We've recently begun making and selling 37mm launchers. We are here in CT but ship nationwide. Check out out site www.BatesAndDittus.com.

We are also trying to generate awareness and interest in 37mm launchers and related stuff so we bought 37mm.com (which was dormant) and are working to get it dusted off and functional again. That site will also cover 40mm products and will have an interesting section on 37mm artillery with a really great section on projectiles.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Incitatus/Launcher/IMG_4555.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Incitatus/Launcher/IMG_4599.jpg

Yes, I understand that lasers and sights are a bit superfluous on a flare launcher but, IMHO, such things look cool and this is for fun (largely) right?:D

If you have questions or suggestions or <blush> compliments, send them along.

Also, we are looking for distributors. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated.

Those are AWESOME! Nice work!

Clarence
12-07-2009, 1:42 PM
Thank you again. Stop by our site and get on our mailing list.

www.batesanddittus.com

bigcalidave
12-07-2009, 1:47 PM
Clarence make an M203 style launcher at a good price!

CHS
12-07-2009, 1:59 PM
Clarence make an M203 style launcher at a good price!

Got 2 grand? You can get a *REAL* M203 legally. Even in CA :)

Group B
12-07-2009, 2:04 PM
Got 2 grand? You can get a *REAL* M203 legally. Even in CA :)

I'm surprised that CA would allow possession of a DD, considering their attitudes regarding NFA stuff like SBRs and Suppressors.

Hayashi Killian
12-07-2009, 2:24 PM
Non-signalling rounds including Chalk rounds would be illegal in a signal gun. It is a pain in the butt.... those are only permitted for DD's.
I'm not so sure about that. I think that even CS gas is OK. Chalk/practice marker rounds are A-OK as far as I know. The PC that was linked says that a device that is primarily used for signaling or distress is not considered a DD, and a 37mm launcher is considered that. The munitions themselves are not DDs because they are non-explosive or non-incendiary. Now I can't argue the same if you had a stinger or wood/foam/rubber less-lethal round, since the feds say that any launcher with anti-personnel rounds are considered DD (yes even less-lethal munitions).

This is why a 40mm launcher, even if you do not own a single 40mm grenade, is a DD because it's primary use is an AP/HEDP device (in layman's terms, a device to blow sh*t up).

CHS
12-07-2009, 2:29 PM
I'm surprised that CA would allow possession of a DD, considering their attitudes regarding NFA stuff like SBRs and Suppressors.

An M203 without the barrel is simply a Title 1 firearm. It IS NOT a DD.

Shivak makes 37mm barrels for M203's.

The combination is expensive, but you get a TRUE M203 in 37mm that's legal in CA.

Clarence
12-07-2009, 4:54 PM
We plan to have a M203 version Q1 2010.

Stay tuned.

Phireglass
12-07-2009, 6:23 PM
Awesome! whats the price range?

Clarence
12-08-2009, 3:56 AM
Awesome! whats the price range?

We want to keep it south of the 350 mark. It will be adaptable to multiple platforms and be configurable as a (clumsy) pistol and a shoulder weapon..

We have some prototypes, Ill see if I can get some pictures.

ENTHUSIAST
12-08-2009, 5:29 AM
We want to keep it south of the 350 mark. It will be adaptable to multiple platforms and be configurable as a (clumsy) pistol and a shoulder weapon..

We have some prototypes, Ill see if I can get some pictures.

Cool post 'em up when you can.

Gregchico
12-08-2009, 8:33 AM
We plan to have a M203 version Q1 2010.

Stay tuned.


As the maker and seller of these type of launchers, can you answer the question of using "chalk" or what else can legally be used in these launchers?

I have zero interest in cs gas, or any type of explosive. I was hoping for something that would "mark" where it landed and not be too expensive or punishing to fire, a small 26mm smoke round should do fine if chalk is a no-no I guess.

Clarence
12-08-2009, 5:14 PM
As the maker and seller of these type of launchers, can you answer the question of using "chalk" or what else can legally be used in these launchers?

I have zero interest in cs gas, or any type of explosive. I was hoping for something that would "mark" where it landed and not be too expensive or punishing to fire, a small 26mm smoke round should do fine if chalk is a no-no I guess.

Well, I can only direct you to what BATF has published on the matter:
ATF Ruling 95-3 specifically states:

37/38 mm gas/flare guns possessed with cartridges containing wood pellets, rubber pellets or balls, or bean bags are classified as destructive devices for purposes of the Gun Control Act, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, and the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53.

A bit more on ammo is here:
http://batesanddittus.com/37mm_Ammunition.html

I am not a lawyer and, frankly, we won't know what is strictly allowed until some poor sod gets arrested and we see if he is convicted. Personally, I'd shoot chalk without a thought about it since one would be hard pressed to show how that is anti-personnel. The only thing that I feel comfortable in saying is that the commonly available civilian loads available on the net are OK. ALS, for example, won't sell to civilians. If you get your hands on a round of theirs it is probably a no-no.

Clarence
12-08-2009, 5:15 PM
Cool post 'em up when you can.

Late tomorrow, hopefully.

hnoppenberger
12-08-2009, 9:36 PM
chalk according to the books is GTG. i interpret them as a signalling round, because of course thats exactly what they are being used for. signalling to yourself what you hit. spirit and book here... id say its ok.

Bucky G
12-08-2009, 10:04 PM
Dude, its hookers and blow...

you been following me huh :D

Clarence
12-12-2009, 5:55 PM
Hi folks. Here are some pictures of our underbarrel model in prototype.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Incitatus/Launcher/IMG_5493.jpg

It utilizes the same barrel stock as the TBL-37

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Incitatus/Launcher/IMG_5494.jpg

The receiver is steel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Incitatus/Launcher/IMG_5495.jpg

It will be configurable as a shoulder weapon or as a clunky pistol in addition to it's under barrel mount capability.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Incitatus/Launcher/IMG_5498.jpg

Thoughts, suggestions?

Giovani X
12-12-2009, 6:04 PM
you put that 12 gauge adapter in and you have created an SBS!
No GO Chico, not in Cali anyway.

CHS
12-12-2009, 6:17 PM
you put that 12 gauge adapter in and you have created an SBS!
No GO Chico, not in Cali anyway.

The 12ga adapters are short-chambered and are perfectly legal when used with short 12ga flares.

Gregchico
12-12-2009, 7:58 PM
you put that 12 gauge adapter in and you have created an SBS!
No GO Chico, not in Cali anyway.

The 12 gauge adapters (that I have seen at least) are for 2.5 inch shells, so I'm thinking that legal issues would be second to the persons missing hand if they used real shotgun shells.

cmaynes
12-12-2009, 8:03 PM
I'm not so sure about that. I think that even CS gas is OK. Chalk/practice marker rounds are A-OK as far as I know. The PC that was linked says that a device that is primarily used for signaling or distress is not considered a DD, and a 37mm launcher is considered that. The munitions themselves are not DDs because they are non-explosive or non-incendiary. Now I can't argue the same if you had a stinger or wood/foam/rubber less-lethal round, since the feds say that any launcher with anti-personnel rounds are considered DD (yes even less-lethal munitions).

This is why a 40mm launcher, even if you do not own a single 40mm grenade, is a DD because it's primary use is an AP/HEDP device (in layman's terms, a device to blow sh*t up).

According to Long Mountain Outfitters, who are supremely aware of the whole NFA lexicon, chalk rounds ARE NOT legal. CS gas is however (messed up) that is. Basically you cannot shoot any solid projectile out of a flare launcher legally.

It would be great to see that changed, because the whole golfball - AR 15 thing is really great fun, and is functionally the same.

Maddog5150
12-12-2009, 11:05 PM
Why waste (yes its a waste) money on something that has no practical purpose? If you really feel you need a signaling device at the range you can carry a pop flare which weighs nothing compared to something that will make your AR heavy as hell.
To each his own but seems like a lot of money to spend on a flare launcher. Hookers and blow FTW

Hayashi Killian
12-13-2009, 2:35 AM
According to Long Mountain Outfitters, who are supremely aware of the whole NFA lexicon, chalk rounds ARE NOT legal.
And what do you think? Can you give me something other than "I heard these people say this" talk? I would like something a little more than an attempt at parroting. Most specifically, reasoning and/or logic.

I don't see why CS gas being legal is messed up. It can serve as both a signal round as well as a distress round. I imagine a CS grenade would disperse a pack of wolves pretty easily.

Clarence
12-13-2009, 4:02 AM
you put that 12 gauge adapter in and you have created an SBS!
No GO Chico, not in Cali anyway.

12 Ga adapters are drilled for the short 12ga cartidge and cannot accomodate a 12 Ga non-flare unless one drills it out . If you do so, and possess a launcher that it fits, you are in violation of a number of laws. At that point, Chico, the great state of California is the least of your concerns because BATF will be first on the list of pissed off enforcement agencies. I might point out that if you take a hacksaw to a rifle or shotgun you can also create a short barreled weapon that is remarkably illegal.

I guess I don't see your point. Unless it is that one can easily break the law. That said, the same laws can be readily broken with available firearms. The solution, of course, to these risks is to outlaw everything.

Clarence
12-13-2009, 4:05 AM
Why waste (yes its a waste) money on something that has no practical purpose? If you really feel you need a signaling device at the range you can carry a pop flare which weighs nothing compared to something that will make your AR heavy as hell.
To each his own but seems like a lot of money to spend on a flare launcher. Hookers and blow FTW

A friend spends thousands on his political button collection. What a waste, he only has two lapels.

;)

Seriously, a lot of folks own these things for recreational purposes. Like any interest it is sometimes hard for an outsider to see the fascination. I really do not get golf. Never had, never will. But it provides enjoyment to a lot of folks.

cmaynes
12-13-2009, 3:40 PM
And what do you think? Can you give me something other than "I heard these people say this" talk? I would like something a little more than an attempt at parroting. Most specifically, reasoning and/or logic.

I don't see why CS gas being legal is messed up. It can serve as both a signal round as well as a distress round. I imagine a CS grenade would disperse a pack of wolves pretty easily.

Well, I actually do a lot of work with Class 3 weapons and DD's, and do trust their opinion on the matter since they interact VERY closely with the NFA branch. I have hired them to provide those devices a half dozen times, and they say that a Flare Launcher cannot legally shoot a chalk round- Whether CADOJ will veer from BATF on that call is not something I know, But all the CA based weapons providers I have used also concurred with that. A chalk round is a solid projectile which shatters on impact, so I will expect it to be in the same class as a less-than-lethal projectile.

As to CS being a viable agent, I suppose it could if the conditions were right, but wind is an issue and without a measure of concentration (and the rounds are I think about $40 to $50 a piece) it seems like a pretty inefficient way to drive critters off- you can do less-than-lethal 12ga rounds for a fraction of that cost....

As to flares- in CA, almost every place on land would have a likely fire risk, and they typically are expected to be used for real signalling... not just fun. But I would prefer leaving that judgement to an LEO who might be reading the thread.

hnoppenberger
12-13-2009, 9:46 PM
you put that 12 gauge adapter in and you have created an SBS!
No GO Chico, not in Cali anyway.

GET A LIFE FUN POLICEMAN.

. i think the launcher prototype looks great. i wouldnt change anything.

Clarence
01-11-2010, 5:40 AM
As heads up, we have come up with a few new configurations for our launchers. Take a look here

www.batesanddittus.com

http://www.batesanddittus.com/NewConfigurations/VerticalFGStand.jpg