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halifax
12-06-2009, 6:01 AM
Last year I got a flyer about a LE auction in OR. These were confiscated firearms for sale. I didn't go because I didn't have a ton of cash. If this comes up again and I go, what kind of problems should I expect in purchasing and transporting back to CA (other than AW)?

Quiet
12-06-2009, 6:47 AM
Federal law [18 USC 922(a)(3)] prevents you from taking possession of any firearms you purchase out-of-state.
Federal law [18 USC 922(a)(5)] prevents a resident of another state in transfering a firearm to you, unless it is done through a FFL dealer in your state of residence.
Federal law [18 USC 922(b)(3)] and CA state law [PC 12070(a)(1)] prevents a FFL dealer in another state in letting you take possession of any firearm you aquire through them, because CA state law requires it to be done through a CA FFL dealer.

You can buy them, but the seller will have to ship them to a CA FFL dealer. You will then have to 4473/DROS them at the CA FFL dealer and wait 10 days to pick them up.

Any handguns you purchase must be on the CA DOJ approved list.



18 USC 922
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

Penal Code 12070
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.

Penal Code 12071
(a)(1) As used in this chapter, the term "licensee," "person licensed pursuant to Section 12071," or "dealer" means a person who has all of the following:
(A) A valid federal firearms license.
(B) Any regulatory or business license, or licenses, required by local government.
(C) A valid seller's permit issued by the State Board of Equalization.
(D) A certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (4).
(E) A license issued in the format prescribed by paragraph (6).
(F) Is among those recorded in the centralized list specified in subdivision (e).

kemasa
12-06-2009, 8:01 AM
I believe that Halifax is a FFL. Perhaps I am mistaken, but that tends to change things. Is that what the question is?

halifax
12-06-2009, 9:21 AM
01FFL here.

Sorry Quiet. But good post anyway.

kemasa
12-07-2009, 1:18 PM
In CA, you need not store the firearms in a locked container as it is merchandise for your business, BUT good luck with law enforcement if you actually do that.

I don't know of any issues with transporting the firearms back. I would make sure that they are out of sight and it is best if they are locked up. If you stop some place on the way back, I would not leave them in the vehicle for the night unless you are sleeping in the vehicle or very close to it. Just common sense stuff.

You are not shipping the firearms, so the CFLC does not apply.

halifax
12-07-2009, 2:01 PM
In CA, you need not store the firearms in a locked container as it is merchandise for your business, BUT good luck with law enforcement if you actually do that.

I don't know of any issues with transporting the firearms back. I would make sure that they are out of sight and it is best if they are locked up. If you stop some place on the way back, I would not leave them in the vehicle for the night unless you are sleeping in the vehicle or very close to it. Just common sense stuff.

You are not shipping the firearms, so the CFLC does not apply.

Truck bed locked strong box. Single day's travel. Should be OK unless there's an accident.

kemasa
12-07-2009, 2:13 PM
Oh, make sure you have a copy of all your paperwork (FFL, permits, etc.), just to be paranoid. You will need copies to give to the person you buy from, but it is best to have a copy should there be an issue with law enforcement.

Sounds like you have a good means of transport.

halifax
12-09-2009, 5:13 AM
In CA, you need not store the firearms in a locked container as it is merchandise for your business, BUT good luck with law enforcement if you actually do that.

I don't know of any issues with transporting the firearms back. I would make sure that they are out of sight and it is best if they are locked up. If you stop some place on the way back, I would not leave them in the vehicle for the night unless you are sleeping in the vehicle or very close to it. Just common sense stuff.

You are not shipping the firearms, so the CFLC does not apply.

I'm thinking CFLC does apply. If I'm at a gunshow and another dealer brings a firearm to me to do the transfer on (i.e., no shipping, but I still need to get the letter.) I wonder if the LE agency running the auction will have an FFL that is setup on the CA CFLC website for CFLC. I guess I should call first.

tenpercentfirearms
12-09-2009, 6:01 AM
You are not shipping the firearms, so the CFLC does not apply.

I believe this is inaccurate.

12072(f)(1) (A) Commencing July 1, 2008, a person who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code may not deliver, sell, or transfer a firearm to a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code unless, prior to delivery, the person intending to deliver, sell, or transfer the firearm obtains a verification number via the Internet for the intended delivery, sale, or transfer, from the department. If Internet service is unavailable to either the department of the licensee due to a technical or other malfunction, or a federal firearms licensee who is located outside California does not possess a computer or have Internet access, alternate means of communication, including facsimile or telephone, shall be made available for a licensee to obtain a verification number in order to comply with this section. This subdivision shall not apply to the delivery, sale, or transfer of a short-barreled rifle, or short-barreled shotgun, as defined in Section 12020, or to a machinegun as defined in Section 12200, or to an assault weapon as defined in Sections 12276, 12276.1, and 12276.5.
(B) For every identification number request received pursuant to this section, the department shall determine whether the intended recipient is on the centralized list of firearms dealers pursuant to this section, or the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 12083, or the centralized list of firearms manufacturers pursuant to subdivision (f) of Section 12086.
(C) If the department finds that the intended recipient is on one of these lists, the department shall issue to the inquiring party, a unique identification number for the intended delivery, sale, or transfer. In addition to the unique verification number, the department may provide to the inquiring party information necessary for determining the eligibility of the intended recipient to receive the firearm.
The person intending to deliver, sell, or transfer the firearm shall provide the unique verification number to the recipient along with the firearms upon delivery, in a manner to be determined by the department.
(D) If the department finds that the intended recipient is not on one of these lists, the department shall notify the inquiring party that the intended recipient is ineligible to receive the firearm.
(E) The department shall prescribe the manner in which the verification numbers may be requested via the Internet, or by alternate means of communication, such as by facsimile or telephone, including all required enrollment information and procedures.Shipping is not mentioned, only, "deliver, sell, or transfer". You going up there to buy them means they are selling them to you. If you have a A&D record of receiving the firearm and no CFLC #, you will probably have to answer for that.

kemasa
12-09-2009, 11:13 AM
Interesting. There is no exception for the person making a personal purchase in that section. So, under that, if a FFL were to go to another FFL for a PPT, for example, that FFL would be required to get a CFLC letter.

Also, see: http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/cflcoverview.php

That summary is different than the law.

The other problem is that since the transfer is out of state, operating under a Federal License, can CA legally demand such a letter/conditions for purchases out of their jurisdiction?

Also, if you want to read the penal code section specifically, it says "to a person in California". If he has traveled outside of CA, then does that section apply?

Clearly, it would be safer to get such a letter and/or ask the DOJ their opinion on whether a letter is needed when you are outside of CA, but beware of a response of "DOJ masters" :-).

kemasa
12-09-2009, 2:10 PM
If you have a A&D record of receiving the firearm and no CFLC #, you will probably have to answer for that.

Remember, non-FFLs do not need and can not get a CFLC letter, so you are going to have firearms in your bound book which has no CFLC #, so this is really not an issue unless it is shown to be coming from another FFL with the FFL #, instead of the name and address.

tenpercentfirearms
12-09-2009, 8:07 PM
Also, if you want to read the penal code section specifically, it says "to a person in California". If he has traveled outside of CA, then does that section apply?It actually says, "may not deliver, sell, or transfer a firearm to a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44". You could read that to mean a person licensed in California, not literally is in California. After all, all business is to be conducted from your FFL address.

Clearly, it would be safer to get such a letter and/or ask the DOJ their opinion on whether a letter is needed when you are outside of CA, but beware of a response of "DOJ masters" :-).I vote just get the letter.

Remember, non-FFLs do not need and can not get a CFLC letter, so you are going to have firearms in your bound book which has no CFLC #, so this is really not an issue unless it is shown to be coming from another FFL with the FFL #, instead of the name and address.

This wasn't obvious? Or should I claim the guy's name really is "Acusport" and that One Hunter Place is his home residence?

kemasa
12-10-2009, 7:57 AM
Wes, it is interesting how you choose to read things at times. If the person travels out of state, then it is not being sold to a person in CA. It does not say to a person who resides in CA, who has a business in CA, etc.

There are FFLs who's name is not an obvious business name and in some cases the FFL lists the person's name, not the business.

I don't understand your comment about "his home residence". The correct term is licensed premises, it has nothing to do with where the person lives.

Brockway Gun & Knife
12-10-2009, 12:28 PM
Q: May a licensed dealer sell a firearm to a non-licensee who is a resident of another State?

Generally, a firearm may not lawfully be sold by a licensed dealer to a non-licensee who resides in a State other than the State in which the sellerís licensed premises is located. However, the sale may be made if the firearm is shipped to a licensed dealer whose business is in the purchaserís State of residence and the purchaser takes delivery of the firearm from the dealer in his or her State of residence. In addition, a licensee may sell a rifle or shotgun to a person who is not a resident of the State where the licenseeís business premises is located in an over-the-counter transaction, provided the transaction complies with State law in the State where the licensee is located and in the State where the purchaser resides.

[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3)]

kemasa
12-10-2009, 12:34 PM
That question does NOT apply since in this discussion it is about a CA FFL leaving CA to go to another state and purchase firearms using his FFL..

tenpercentfirearms
12-11-2009, 5:44 AM
Wes, it is interesting how you choose to read things at times. If the person travels out of state, then it is not being sold to a person in CA. It does not say to a person who resides in CA, who has a business in CA, etc.You are correct that is not being sold to a person in California. However, the penal code specifically states, "may not deliver, sell, or transfer a firearm to a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44". Think of it this way. Whether I am in California or in Nevada, I am still a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44.

As you state elsewhere, get it in writing from the DOJ. Once you get a letter from the DOJ stating we don't have to do it, then that is fine by me.

There are FFLs who's name is not an obvious business name and in some cases the FFL lists the person's name, not the business.Yeah I get that. We all get that. We are dealers. We know how it works.

I don't understand your comment about "his home residence". The correct term is licensed premises, it has nothing to do with where the person lives.Next time I will warn you when I use sarcasm. I guess you didn't understand this being a joke as I claimed that I bought guns from a guy named Acusport who lives on One Hunter Place. Clearly Acusport is not a guy and One Hunter Place is not his "home residence." Acusport is clearly a multi-million dollar wholesaler and One Hunter Place is his "licensed premises" as you state.

Would that include phone orders? As long as I place the order in Nevada does that exempt me from CFLC? Would it matter if I still have them shipped from Nevada to California, but I could claim I called it in from Nevada? How would you note that somewhere that you weren't "in California" at the time of the sale even though the A&D of both FFLs clearly show the firearms were signed out in Nevada and signed-in in California?

You picked a doozie to play devil's advocate on kemasa. Good luck.

Anyway, no need for me to comment anymore on this thread. Get it in writing that the DOJ thinks you are not "a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44" whether you are in the state or out and your simple location at the time of order or if you receive the firearms out of state and then bring them in still doesn't mean you are "a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44".

kemasa
12-11-2009, 12:07 PM
Gotta love Wes' logic. Even when you are in another state, you are still in CA.

The example of calling to buy a firearm when you are out of state is bogus since in the example the firearm is shipped to CA.

Wes ignores whether CA can demand that a transaction which is done completely outside of CA to follow CA law.

Why should I get it in writing from the CA DOJ when you don't believe what they say anyhow? Would a letter from the CA DOJ convince you of what a single sale is? that a handgun IS a firearm transaction? that you can't add a long gun to a handgun DROS?

tenpercentfirearms
12-11-2009, 4:54 PM
Gotta love Wes' logic. Even when you are in another state, you are still in CA.Kemasa, think of it this way. What if they had written it to say, "may not deliver, sell, or transfer a firearm to a person who is licensed in California pursuant to Chapter 44". Does that make more sense to you?

Ok, Logically speaking how do you prove you weren't "in California" when you took delivery of the firearms? Your A&D book is going to look exactly like as if you were in California. So how do you prove you weren't? If this is true, then what is to stop dealers from just claiming they went to Ohio to pick up the guns and brought them in with them?

The example of calling to buy a firearm when you are out of state is bogus since in the example the firearm is shipped to CA.Is it bogus? I was not in California when I bought it and I shipped it to myself.

Wes ignores whether CA can demand that a transaction which is done completely outside of CA to follow CA law.I didn't ignore it. Prove that CA can't require you to get a CFLC number if you are out of state when you take possession of the firearms. Be sure to specify how you are going to clearly prove when and where you took possession when the DOJ questions you on it.

Why should I get it in writing from the CA DOJ when you don't believe what they say anyhow? Would a letter from the CA DOJ convince you of what a single sale is? that a handgun IS a firearm transaction? that you can't add a long gun to a handgun DROS?Cop out. That thread is over. If you are sure of yourself, get proof. Again, if you are going to make some claims, back them up. A letter from the DOJ stating they don't believe you need a CFLC letter for guns you take delivery of out of state would be great. I don't know why you wouldn't try and get one if you are so sure you are correct. Heck you could even write them about those other two issues while you are at it.

My question is have you actually done this? If not, why are you advocating other dealers do it when you yourself haven't done it? Are you just trying to test the waters at other people's expense? I am a little concerned what you are advocating is illegal and you are just trying to get other people in trouble.

If you have done this, then just go ahead and prove you stand behind it by posting the make, model, serial number, date and who you acquired the firearms from so the DOJ's job will be a little easier. :p

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

Seriously, no need to rehash old subjects. You should seriously contact the DOJ and see if they agree with your stance on "in California". I definitely agree that your reading of the penal code could be accurate. I just don't see how you can easily prove compliance and am not sure if it is worth hassling over. Good luck with your project.

kemasa
12-12-2009, 9:12 AM
So Wes, it is now about what they meant instead of what is written?

Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? They would need to prove that you were in CA.

Wes, you said "Would that include phone orders? As long as I place the order in Nevada does that exempt me from CFLC?" So, how would you ship it yourself if you placed the order by phone? So, yes, it is bogus since you got caught in a lack of logic, so you are now changing things to defend your position.

No, it is not a cop out, it goes to show your logic or lack thereof.

As I said, it is safer to get the letter and if I was in the position of buying firearms out of state, I would contact the CA DOJ and find out about it. But, as I said, you don't believe the DOJ anyhow, so why are you now saying that you should listen to them?